Is Liberal Catholicism Dead?

[ToddM]

To quote Buddha: “When you take your shoes off to enter the temple, don’t leave common sense behind as well.” Popes are
often wrong. It is up for each person to examine scripture or teachings, take what makes sense, and leave the rest.Remember
that according to the Council of Constance (*check it out on the web) a democratically elected body of laity is the highest governing body of the church as it is the living presence of the Holy Spirit.The Council of Constance as you recall, fired three popes, excommunicated cardinals and bishops, overturned dogma etc. and elected a new pope on their own. John Neuman in the last century proclaimed the Infallibility of the Laity. And it was on this basis that the Immaculate Conception was established. Vatican I painted the church into a corner. We need a second Council of Constance to clean up the mess created by conservatives in the Vatican. An adult faith is a questioning and reasoning faith. Blind submission to authority is magic and superstition. Turn off Mother Angelica reruns and get real.

To quote Buddha : “When you take your shoes off to enter the temple, don’t leave common sense behind as well.”

Uhhhh, ok…

Popes are
often wrong.

So?

It is up for each person to examine scripture or teachings,

Wow, how refreshing, maybe you should nail that to the door of the vatic…oh, wait.

take what makes sense, and leave the rest…

Okay, bye.

 

[AmyS]

The “Poisoning of the Church” started under Pius XII not John XXIII
Pius was a disgrace. He signed the Concordat with the Nazi, supported war by the Germans against the Russians and caused many deaths. Pius made many millions spying for both the Axis and Allies. The Angel Pope played both sides to his advantage and jumped on the winning team when the time was right. In the words of Watergate: Follow the money! At the turn of the 20th century the Vatican was broke, 45 years later it was one of the biggest holders of gold reserves in the world and a major player in international currency exchange. Much of the Nazi’s gold can be traced to concentration camps… Vatican II was a mass rebellion against the rigidity, secrecy, and autocracy of Pius XII. The Americans, Russians, Germans, English have all opened there secret WWII archieves to scholars. The only body which hasn’t is the Vatican. It has a lot to hide! Saint Dietrich:Bonhoeffer pray for us!:

That is all lies! Read preview.tinyurl.com/6z65e7 The most amazing part is who started these lies, and why… And, that people still believe them.

 

[AmyS]

Actually use this link, it will bring you straight to the book tinyurl.com/6z65e7

 

[ToddM]

Hey, Amy, don’t confuse us with the facts, okay?

It is obvious that the traditional Catholics are such pitiable creatures, that we cannot possibly hope to join the enlightened elite. Buddha said, I guess, if this isn’t just another teaching method of something that Buddha said, cannot be taught…wait…, I’m confused again.

Oh wait, that is just to exhaust discursive thinking. He meant to confuse.

But wait, God isn’t supposed to be the author of confusion.

In all earnestness, this whole game of mental ping-pong, this cranial chewing gum nonsense is merely one individuals attempt to use other human beings for their own amusement. Denial of attention works wonderfully as well.

This is not a case of incapacity, but that of unwillingness.

Beyond admin time. The basic rules of most grown up sites is respect. This individual, if one of the e-post-ulate were to look back, would see that this basic charity is not present in this case.

This is not a sincere individual. Maybe I’ll be banned. I’ll take one for the team. Enough already, this is not ‘edifying’, and that is possibly an understatement bordering on a lie.

 

[ToddM]

Hey, Amy, don’t confuse us with the facts, okay?

It is obvious that the traditional Catholics are such pitiable creatures, that we cannot possibly hope to join the enlightened elite. Buddha said, I guess, if this isn’t just another teaching method of something that Buddha said, cannot be taught…wait…, I’m confused again.

Oh wait, that is just to exhaust discursive thinking. He meant to confuse.

But wait, God isn’t supposed to be the author of confusion.

In all earnestness, this whole game of mental ping-pong, this cranial chewing gum nonsense is merely one individuals attempt to use other human beings for their own amusement. Denial of attention works wonderfully as well.

This is not a case of incapacity, but that of unwillingness.

Beyond admin time. The basic rules of most grown up sites is respect. This individual, if one of the e-post-ulate were to look back, would see that this basic charity is not present in this case.

This is not a sincere individual. Maybe I’ll be banned. I’ll take one for the team. Enough already, this is not ‘edifying’, and that is possibly an understatement bordering on a lie.

Yeah, I know, Buddha didn’t (I guess) claim to be God. There is a disconnect here however.

 

[fix]

To quote Buddha: “When you take your shoes off to enter the temple, don’t leave common sense behind as well.” Popes are
often wrong. It is up for each person to examine scripture or teachings, take what makes sense, and leave the rest.Remember
that according to the Council of Constance (*check it out on the web) a democratically elected body of laity is the highest governing body of the church as it is the living presence of the Holy Spirit.The Council of Constance as you recall, fired three popes, excommunicated cardinals and bishops, overturned dogma etc. and elected a new pope on their own. John Neuman in the last century proclaimed the Infallibility of the Laity. And it was on this basis that the Immaculate Conception was established. Vatican I painted the church into a corner. We need a second Council of Constance to clean up the mess created by conservatives in the Vatican. An adult faith is a questioning and reasoning faith. Blind submission to authority is magic and superstition. Turn off Mother Angelica reruns and get real.

You really mean:

**COUNCIL OF CONSTANCE
**

 

[Michael_Neal]

…

 

[Ender]

An adult faith is a questioning and reasoning faith.

One can believe either in objective moral truths or in relative ones, but if morality is relative - what’s true for you is not true for me - then the entire concept of moral behavior is really rather meaningless. So, if you accept that morality is absolute and unchanging over time and place, explain how your personal opinion is relevant in determining an objective moral truth. Pick a topic on which you disagree with the Church and explain how your opinion should be taken by all people everywhere as valid.

Blind submission to authority is magic and superstition.

You comment entirely misses the point. One believes either that what the Church teaches is the word of God or that it is the word of men. If it is the word of God, then submission to that authority is appropriate; if it is merely the opinions of men then it is irrational to believe any of it. The Church is, or is not, what she claims to be. If she is, then we don’t get to select what to accept and what to reject because what we are judging is not the opinion of the Church but the laws of God. If the Church is wrong about herself then it’s all a sham and none of it is believable. Pick one.

Ender

 

[estesbob]

To quote Buddha: “When you take your shoes off to enter the temple, don’t leave common sense behind as well.” Popes are
often wrong. It is up for each person to examine scripture or teachings, take what makes sense, and leave the rest.Remember
that according to the Council of Constance (*check it out on the web) a democratically elected body of laity is the highest governing body of the church as it is the living presence of the Holy Spirit.The Council of Constance as you recall, fired three popes, excommunicated cardinals and bishops, overturned dogma etc. and elected a new pope on their own. John Neuman in the last century proclaimed the Infallibility of the Laity. And it was on this basis that the Immaculate Conception was established. Vatican I painted the church into a corner. We need a second Council of Constance to clean up the mess created by conservatives in the Vatican. An adult faith is a questioning and reasoning faith. Blind submission to authority is magic and superstition. Turn off Mother Angelica reruns and get real.

Can you give us a list of teachings its ok for us to ignore? It really would be helpful.

 

[estesbob]

You really mean:

COUNCIL OF CONSTANCE
Under Pope John XXIII

One of the reasons the contemporary John XXIII took his name was the illegitimacy of that John XXIII and the Council of Constance. It is ironic that people want to reject actual Chruch teaching and embrace false teachings from a false pope and a false council.

 

[skyryder]

One can believe either in objective moral truths or in relative ones, but if morality is relative - what’s true for you is not true for me - then the entire concept of moral behavior is really rather meaningless. So, if you accept that morality is absolute and unchanging over time and place, explain how your personal opinion is relevant in determining an objective moral truth. Pick a topic on which you disagree with the Church and explain how your opinion should be taken by all people everywhere as valid.
You comment entirely misses the point. One believes either that what the Church teaches is the word of God or that it is the word of men. If it is the word of God, then submission to that authority is appropriate; if it is merely the opinions of men then it is irrational to believe any of it. The Church is, or is not, what she claims to be. If she is, then we don’t get to select what to accept and what to reject because what we are judging is not the opinion of the Church but the laws of God. If the Church is wrong about herself then it’s all a sham and none of it is believable. Pick one.

Ender

I am amazed at how many conservatives have not studied archeology. Large parts of the both the old and new testaments are myth. Despite years of looking Isreali archeologists have found no tangible evidence of the Exodus. Many scholars believe this to be a highly embellished folk tale, with some truth than other stories have been sewn onto. Similarly stories about the conquest of Canaan appear to be questionable. The destruction of Jericho and Ai are written about as if they happened one after the other…when in fact they were several hundred years apart. The New Testament has similar issues. The realationship between the Essenes, the Gnostics and the Early Christians is unclear. The existence of so many pagan mystery religion themes, motifs, and teachings inside the Gospels has yet to be explained. The Bible is a book about God. I am not so sure it is the Word of God because it contradicts itself many times and God cannot be confused. Like all things I think, extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence.(Which doesn’t exist!) We need to take both the scriptures, and especially Vatican Propaganda and Catechism with a big grain of salt. Think for yourself. Don’t hand your life over to ideologues. Truth fears no questions. Examine your beliefs.

 

[estesbob]

I am amazed at how many conservatives have not studied archeology. Large parts of the both the old and new testaments are myth. Despite years of looking Isreali archeologists have found no tangible evidence of the Exodusto ideologues. Truth fears no questions. Examine your beliefs.

I amazed that you would come to such a knoweldgeable group and throw our such nonsense and not expect to be challenged. For example the Ipuwer Papyrus gives a first hand account of the Plagues and the "servants " rebelling and leaving the land. Scholars have dated it around the period Exodus took place. Archeologists have been able to find ruins of the cities the Jews passed though . More importantly jews have celebrated this for 3.000 years. That coupled wiht the first hand account noted above gives strrong evidence that the account is true.

There is no confusion about Gnostics and Early Chrisians. Gnosticism existed before Christ came to the earth. They tried to hijack early Christianity as Gnositc and faaild . A form of gnosticism still exists today -in fact one can see hints of gnositicism in your posts

 

[ToddM]

I am amazed at how many conservatives have not studied archeology. Large parts of the both the old and new testaments are myth. Despite years of looking Isreali archeologists have found no tangible evidence of the Exodus. Many scholars believe this to be a highly embellished folk tale, with some truth than other stories have been sewn onto. Similarly stories about the conquest of Canaan appear to be questionable. The destruction of Jericho and Ai are written about as if they happened one after the other…when in fact they were several hundred years apart. The New Testament has similar issues. The realationship between the Essenes, the Gnostics and the Early Christians is unclear. The existence of so many pagan mystery religion themes, motifs, and teachings inside the Gospels has yet to be explained. The Bible is a book about God. I am not so sure it is the Word of God because it contradicts itself many times and God cannot be confused. Like all things I think, extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence.(Which doesn’t exist!) We need to take both the scriptures, and especially Vatican Propaganda and Catechism with a big grain of salt. Think for yourself. Don’t hand your life over to ideologues. Truth fears no questions. Examine your beliefs.

“I am amazed at how many conservatives have not studied archeology.”

I am amazed at how many conservatives have not studied a lot of things. What are your specific criteria before you will listen to someone.(none. You WILL not )

Why is it you still engage in the stereotypical liberal evasiveness? The previous poster, as well as many others on this thread ask you specific questions and you, predictably, ‘pop smoke’ instead of answering them.

You don’t answer them because you are rightfully afraid of being exposed.

Hey, wow, look, how enlightened. ‘If ignorance is bliss, tis folly to be wise.’

Hey this is fun. I can make nebulous, non-committal statements
and engage is vagaries too.

“Large parts of the both the old and new testaments are myth.”

Okay, define ‘large’. Which parts?

"Despite years of looking Isreali archeologists have found no tangible evidence of the Exodus. "

How many years? What are your sources? You accuse ‘…many conservatives’ of being unstudied. Okay, put up or shut up.

No Israeli archaeologists? No tangible evidence? What exactly would you take as evidence period, let alone tangible? What ? How about answering a direct question?

Hey, why do you limit it to Israelis? Isn’t evidence evidence?

“We need to take both the scriptures, and especially Vatican Propaganda (as opposed to the obvious ones you have bought into) and Catechism with a big grain of salt. Think for yourself. (Please) Don’t hand your life over to ideologues. Truth fears no questions. (just answering them it seems) Examine your beliefs.”
(…)

It amazes me how many liberal (catholics?) haven’t studied their own faithS.

Please, we cannot bear any more of your auto magisterial wisdom oh great one.

 

[goofyjim]

I play the middle ground. But I’m happy to have both sides around even though I disagree with things on both sides. We should not be liberal, conservative, traditional, modern or any of that junk. We should be one catholic church.

 

[ToddM]

I play the middle ground. But I’m happy to have both sides around even though I disagree with things on both sides. We should not be liberal, conservative, traditional, modern or any of that junk. We should be one catholic church.

I feel you Jim, however, what is meant by ‘…be ready to defend…’
and '…be ye hot or cold…" and how about ‘…one catholic church.’

And again, lastly ‘…let them be to you as a gentile and a tax collector.’

When is enough, enough. Charity does not mean being a sissy, nor does it mean allowing nonsense to go unchallenged, especially when done in a clearly dishonest fashion. This ‘dude’ is here to play with people, and to convince us that he is the truth.

The posts are all there, can we not see ‘…the signs of the times?’

 

[PetersKeys]

There is nothing “liberal” about Catholicism. Catholicism and liberalism are like oil and water. Anyone who trys to mix things like modernism, feminism , abortion, etc simply because a schismatic and heretic by church default. Their “fight” is a lost cause, since they are fighting against God. In fact churches that give in to secular pressure are a good sign that that Church is not lead by the Holy Spirit since the Holy Spirit is firm in its truth and does not budge no matter how much liberals pressure people.

 

[ToddM]

There is nothing “liberal” about Catholicism. Catholicism and liberalism are like oil and water. Anyone who trys to mix things like modernism, feminism , abortion, etc simply because a schismatic and heretic by church default. Their “fight” is a lost cause, since they are fighting against God. In fact churches that give in to secular pressure are a good sign that that Church is not lead by the Holy Spirit since the Holy Spirit is firm in its truth and does not budge no matter how much liberals pressure people.

Thank you. Sometimes it feels like I’m taking crazy pills in here.

 

[goofyjim]

I feel you Jim, however, what is meant by ‘…be ready to defend…’
and '…be ye hot or cold…" and how about ‘…one catholic church.’

And again, lastly ‘…let them be to you as a gentile and a tax collector.’

When is enough, enough. Charity does not mean being a sissy, nor does it mean allowing nonsense to go unchallenged, especially when done in a clearly dishonest fashion. This ‘dude’ is here to play with people, and to convince us that he is the truth.

The posts are all there, can we not see ‘…the signs of the times?’

There are your socalled conservatives who go against Church teaching as well. I think they should be out as well as the liberals then. And do we forget the part of “prostitutes and tax collectors are getting into the kingdom before you.” Everybody, and I do mean everybody thinks they have it all figured out. If they stay on the conservative side they’ll get into heaven. Let’s not be so sure. I simply try to practice the Beatitudes and Matthew 25 and proceed with my life.

 

[ToddM]

There are your socalled conservatives who go against Church teaching as well. I think they should be out as well as the liberals then. And do we forget the part of “prostitutes and tax collectors are getting into the kingdom before you.” Everybody, and I do mean everybody thinks they have it all figured out. If they stay on the conservative side they’ll get into heaven. Let’s not be so sure. I simply try to practice the Beatitudes and Matthew 25 and proceed with my life.

“prostitutes and tax collectors are getting into the kingdom before you.”

Who was the ‘you’ here?

Back to the Gentile and tax collectors point however.

The point is, not ‘conservative’ or ‘liberal’.

What does the church teach?

That is the point, we don’t have it all figured out, and we cannot.

Most of my protestant friends consider almost ALL catholics liberal.

Call me a liberal if you want. What does Christ want?

Love your enemy. Most I know consider that to be ‘crazy hippy talk’

We are not called to tolerate or love sin itself.

I have already posted that I am ‘liberal’ as all get out. If going by my past and sometimes my present I am the biggest believer in liberty there is.

I have taken liberties with the truth, other mens wives, other peoples lives.

Being ‘liberal’ in at least the modern sense is as easy as gravity, it
is our default disposition.

The center cannot hold, we must hold it. This ‘liberalism’ is a fire. Like any fire it needs to be tended, banked etc.

What is temperance? What is justice? What is prudence?

We keep the dog on a leash. We take a rabid dog to the tree line.
We are to take our ‘old man’ to the cross.

 

[goofyjim]

“prostitutes and tax collectors are getting into the kingdom before you.”

Who was the ‘you’ here?

Back to the Gentile and tax collectors point however.

The point is, not ‘conservative’ or ‘liberal’.

What does the church teach?

That is the point, we don’t have it all figured out, and we cannot.

Most of my protestant friends consider almost ALL catholics liberal.

Call me a liberal if you want. What does Christ want?

Love your enemy. Most I know consider that to be ‘crazy hippy talk’

We are not called to tolerate or love sin itself.

I have already posted that I am ‘liberal’ as all get out. If going by my past and sometimes my present I am the biggest believer in liberty there is.

I have taken liberties with the truth, other mens wives, other peoples lives.

Being ‘liberal’ in at least the modern sense is as easy as gravity, it
is our default disposition.

The center cannot hold, we must hold it. This ‘liberalism’ is a fire. Like any fire it needs to be tended, banked etc.

What is temperance? What is justice? What is prudence?

We keep the dog on a leash. We take a rabid dog to the tree line.
We are to take our ‘old man’ to the cross.

The “you” is the Pharisees who were the conservative movement at the time. They were so concerned with passing judgement on everyone that they missed all the Old Testament prophets who said time and time again “it is mercy I desire not sacrifice”. Jesus comes along and says those who show mercy will receive mercy and that it is easier for sinners to do this for each other. James, my favorite, states “mercy triumphs over judgement”. And even in the past century we had St. Faustina spreading the message of Divine Mercy, not divine judgement. If we want to be shown mercy for all our sins we are to show nonstop mercy on everybody else’s.