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ToddM
Guest
Why, for instance, call yourself a (…) of peace while committing ‘Mass’ murder?
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ToddM
Guest
Cannot, or will not?
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una_fides
Guest
that’s up to him
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ToddM
Guest
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skyryder
Guest
Actually this cafeteria catholic does give food to the homeless.
But I do not give money to any Bishop unless he is elected by the people, and is subject to lay oversight…
“When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist.”–Dom Helder Camara
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skyryder
Guest
I realize that you like most Catholics were brought up to believe that the church is in the ‘salvation of souls’ business. I would contend, along with many others, that the Church is not selling anything and especially salvation. The ‘soul’ is a pagan Greek concept Any Jew ,including Jesus, would call your idea of a soul absurd.
Jesus called people into a WAY OF LIFE, not a style of worship, or system of sacraments… I realize that for many people there is confusion about this. They actually think that going to worship on Sunday is what being a Christian is all about. It isn’t. Jesus never, ever suggested that he was calling people to any style of religious observance at all. He called them into the Kingdom of God which is demonstrated by a way of life. The idea of confession and forgiveness of sins means drawing close to Jesus. The reason God hates sin is because it destroys or defeats us as people and prevents us from reaching our potential of growth and development. We punish ourselves God does not punish us. The ancient church held there were only 3 types of serious sin: Murder, Adultery and Apostacy. We cannot earn salvation. It is given freely by God to undeserving men.
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The church is, when it is being true to Jesus, is calling people into a way of life that is drastically and radically different from the Capitalist Society most people around us live in . Jesus’ Kingdom is about a way of life that is an alternative to the American Imperialism of today, The message of Christ is simple…LOVE GOD; LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR. I admit that the church has lost its way. Changing the way people worship (ie going back to the Latin Mass) is akin to changing the arrangement of the deck chairs after the Titanic has hit the iceberg – an interesting exercise and a complete waste of time,
Catholicism has the mistaken idea that it doesn’t have to change. It blames secularism or the devil for ills stemming its own mismanagement. It has even gone so far as to promote the strange idea that its self appointed leadership is divinely sanctioned so they can’t be questioned or held accountable. It has also created fictions such as Jesus wrote the mass, or made representations that Jesus dies eternally on the altar when the Bible says He died once and never again. Jesus never said anything about his tortured body being cut up like crutons and passed out to canibals as hor d’overs. Communion at best is a source of grace. The term Real Presence sounds like something from a Pagan Mystery Cult. The idea of Transubstantiation is based on Greek Ideas of Matter which have been universally disproved by science…God is everywhere. Jesus does not need a little gold tabernacle to live in. We experience the presence of God in many ways: grace ie co-union with God, scripture,and inner knowing that comes through prayer.
Most of the tradtions the conservative hold dear are medieval inventions and not part of Christ’s message. The Roman Catholic Church, as far as I’m concerned, is one of the best examples of what the Church is NOT. It is not a totalitarian kingdom with a human being at the apex dressed in gold and jewels prancing around like a Mafia Chief ordering death squads to take out enemies and silence dissent.
The Papacy of the Renaissance & the Curia are organs invented by Constantine’s State Funded Church-not Jesus.
Most of the people I know do not go to church. Churches today are becoming irrelevant not because of worship style but because they no longer speak to a rational people in a scientific age. Catholics preach a “pie in the sky when I die by and by” sort of faith. Most people, really don’t believe in that sort of thing except at a superstitious level. People see God as some sort of cop or judge with whom they can make deals. “God I’ll do this if you’ll do this for me.” That is a 6 year old bargaining with mom or dad for a toy. It is not a mature person’s religion or faith. God doesn’t bargain. When people say Jesus died for them, this is coupon clipping where someone else pays the bill. God doesn’t give out bills. God doesn’t hold grudges. God does not need to be appeased. God does not need the so-called sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross. Christ would be appalled by such a notion.
Liberals want to strip Catholicism of historic corruption and return to Christian Roots. Conservatives are addicted to power games and want to preserve traditions which fulfill their polical and economic agendas.
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mangy_dog
Guest
Bro,
Liberalism is not a luciferian plot, neither is conservatism.
We need to bring reality into this discussion. NO ONE has ever seen God. NO ONE can absolutely prove God exists or doesn’t.
NO ONE in this generation has ever seen Jesus Christ. NO ONE can absolutely prove the events of the Gospel (eg the resurection) happened or didn’t. NO ONE can prove Catholicism is the true faith. NO ONE can prove God likes the traditional mass or prefers other forms of worship. NO ONE can prove the lineage of the Popes is factual (Most Historians discount it) NO ONE can prove with certainty that any of the Popes Rules, Regs, Dogmas or Doctrines are true. NO ONE can prove heaven or hell exists.
Everything comes down to faith and personal beliefs.
God is effiable. (ie beyond Human Understanding) What your blog states is your view of God is better than my view of God…Right? To state that conservatives are right and liberals are wrong because you know God would violate the definition of what God is. There are no modern prophets.
The finite cannot know the infinite.
I think the remark about the devils talons taking a bite out of one shoulders and biting one’s neck might be your own pride or a misbehaving pet parrot. You can state your opinions but do not villify mine.
Brother ( is what I assume you were trying to say),
It is sad to read a thread that proves the fruits of liberalism.
God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit does exist. No one has to prove this to me.
The Catholic church is the one, true church that Christ intended to exist after His ascension into heaven and of which He left Peter as its first Pope…263 popes later to Pope Benedict XVI.
And even though there is plenty of historical proof of this, I don’t need to verify the documents and thier sources in minute detail to believe it.
I don’t need to stick my fingers in the nail holes or my hand in His side to know that He is the Lord and God of all.
And my dear brother, the finite (you, me) can know Him who is eternal. God is a personal being…God is Love!
Not love like the world would have us believe, not love of my ipod or my cell phone or my MTV…those are cheap imitations.
Precisely because He is Love is the reason He is knowable.
Ineffable is the other word you were looking for…and you would be right…He is indiscribable and unimaginable by us humans. Yet He reveals Himself to us in Jesus Christ…and stays with us in the Eucharist.
Brother, pray the rosary daily; go to confession and communion weekly; love and serve the Lord and be a witness onto others. This is our simple task. Tradition.
Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum.
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fix
Guest
What is your proof?
How do you know this?
Proof?
Proof?
You mean rationalism, materialism, scientism, nihilism and all the rest.
You mean those who subscribe to this primitive theology you assert here.
Ah, old bad, new good.
J
Joe_5859
Guest
This is ironic because you could replace the word “liberals” above with “fundamentalist anti-Catholics” and say the exact same thing.
Conservatives addicted to power games? That’s a wee bit cynical. None of the “conservatives” that I know have any such ambitions. I think you are basing your observations of conservatives on a non-existent caricature. This is just anecdotal, so take it for what it’s worth, but in my experience of people working in the Church, the one’s who exhibit a penchant for power games are the “progressives”. They’re the ones I’ve seen desperately trying to “work their way up the ladder” in diocesan chancery buildings and refusing to let go of their “positions of power” long after most people would have retired. So I would say your observations of “conservatives” would be much more aptly applied to “liberals.”
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mangy_dog
Guest
Thanks I needed that this morning.
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JudieK
Guest
Sky- I totally disagree with every single thing you said. I do not feel at all controlled by the Church. In fact, the more I learn about it, the more I fall in love with Jesus and His Church. I have also experienced many answered prayers and what I can only describe as “miracles” in my life. So I will stick with Jesus and His Church.
I wish you well on your journey of faith. I don’t see that this discussion is really going anywhere… we’re talking about apples and oranges. What you describe is not Catholicism but something else entirely.
It has been a great ride, everyone! I’m out!
Judie
I wish you well on your journey of faith. I don’t see that this discussion is really going anywhere… we’re talking about apples and oranges. What you describe is not Catholicism but something else entirely.
It has been a great ride, everyone! I’m out!
Judie
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9Choirs
Guest
You have swallowed much misinformation about the reason behind the decline of Church attendance.
Islam is the fastest growing religion in Europe in this ‘scientific age’ and it can be argued quite effectively that Islam adheres to more rigid boundaries than Catholicism does. Moreover, despite the ‘liberation’ of western women, you’ll find that white European women are the largest converts to this religion that many of the ‘enlightened’ West would deem oppressive of women.
As cited by many, the most probable reason, as echoed by the ex Muslim Magdi Allam catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=12770 contributing to the decline of Church attendance is the moral relativism sweeping the West. Moral absolutes are ultimately what the enlightened seek and it seems that those who are not receiving moral absolutes from the Church (due to the rampant PC which has infiltrated her) are turning to Islam, therefore your assertion that the Church’s stagnant code of morality is contributing to empty Church pews is invalid.
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skyryder
Guest
Judie- I would tend to agree. There is no languaage or commonality between Conservative or Liberal Catholics.Sky- I totally disagree with every single thing you said. I do not feel at all controlled by the Church. In fact, the more I learn about it, the more I fall in love with Jesus and His Church. I have also experienced many answered prayers and what I can only describe as “miracles” in my life. So I will stick with Jesus and His Church.
I wish you well on your journey of faith. I don’t see that this discussion is really going anywhere… we’re talking about apples and oranges. What you describe is not Catholicism but something else entirely.
It has been a great ride, everyone! I’m out!
Given the extremist positions of the current pope I think half if not more of American Catholic will either leave or not bother to attend.
I think what matters is my relationship with God not the present administration, do whatever you want. I will go my own way as well.
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AmyS
Guest
Please do not say those things about Pope Benedict. You should never hope those types of things. By the way, we are gaining number not losing them. I think those people who leave now, probably should have left a long time ago. They are worrying more about their agenda, then God’s plan.
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una_fides
Guest
SKYRYDER,
I could respond with so much biblical and historical evidence to show you that you have been misinformed regarding your views of the Church, but I honestly sense a stern hardness of heart and a lack of willingness to consider the possibility that your conclusions could be erroneous. For anyone who believes that God has left us humans here to figure everything out about him on our own, I think the best approach is such sincere humility to realize that things we may sincerely believe to be true could in fact be wrong. It is not until we come to this point of brokenness and openness to God that he is able to draw us as we sincerely and humbly seek and approach his truth.
You seem to believe in Jesus and believe that he did in fact teach a message and whatever that message is that he taught should be followed. To this point, we all on here can agree. I think we can build on this fact by pulling together all the resources of the early Church Fathers, who wrote well before the middle ages and those who even wrote before Constantine.
I used to be a very skeptical Protestant before I became Catholic. For me and for so many other converts to the Catholic faith, the early Church Fathers played a crucial role. I’ve spent many seemingly sleepless nights engulfed in their writings. One of the most interesting things one will discover is their understanding of authority, particularly apostolic authority. I will leave you with a few gems from their writings in a separate post, but before I do, I would like to again recommend to pray and to seek God and his truth for what it is. If you disagree with the Catholic Church, I would recommend that instead of trying to change her to fit your views, perhaps you should take more time to figure out why she teaches what she does. If you cannot accept her teachings, then I am unsure why you might want to continue to consider yourself Catholic. As we are on our journeys of faith, let us continue to pray and seek God’s truth and realize that our time is short on this earth and soon we will all (myself included) have to give an account to God for what we have done here on earth.
I could respond with so much biblical and historical evidence to show you that you have been misinformed regarding your views of the Church, but I honestly sense a stern hardness of heart and a lack of willingness to consider the possibility that your conclusions could be erroneous. For anyone who believes that God has left us humans here to figure everything out about him on our own, I think the best approach is such sincere humility to realize that things we may sincerely believe to be true could in fact be wrong. It is not until we come to this point of brokenness and openness to God that he is able to draw us as we sincerely and humbly seek and approach his truth.
You seem to believe in Jesus and believe that he did in fact teach a message and whatever that message is that he taught should be followed. To this point, we all on here can agree. I think we can build on this fact by pulling together all the resources of the early Church Fathers, who wrote well before the middle ages and those who even wrote before Constantine.
I used to be a very skeptical Protestant before I became Catholic. For me and for so many other converts to the Catholic faith, the early Church Fathers played a crucial role. I’ve spent many seemingly sleepless nights engulfed in their writings. One of the most interesting things one will discover is their understanding of authority, particularly apostolic authority. I will leave you with a few gems from their writings in a separate post, but before I do, I would like to again recommend to pray and to seek God and his truth for what it is. If you disagree with the Catholic Church, I would recommend that instead of trying to change her to fit your views, perhaps you should take more time to figure out why she teaches what she does. If you cannot accept her teachings, then I am unsure why you might want to continue to consider yourself Catholic. As we are on our journeys of faith, let us continue to pray and seek God’s truth and realize that our time is short on this earth and soon we will all (myself included) have to give an account to God for what we have done here on earth.
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una_fides
Guest
St. Ignatius of Antioch, disciple of St. John the apostle.
Epistle to the Ephesians, “It is therefore befitting that you should in every way glorify Jesus Christ, who hath glorified you, that by a unanimous obedience “ye may be perfectly joined together in the same mind, and in the same judgment, and may all speak the same thing concerning the same thing,” (1Co_1:10) and that, being subject to the bishop and the presbytery, ye may in all respects be sanctified. Wherefore it is fitting that ye should run together in accordance with the will of your bishop, which thing also ye do. For your justly renowned presbytery, worthy of God, is fitted as exactly to the bishop as the strings are to the harp.” … “It is manifest, therefore, that we should look upon the bishop even as we would upon the Lord Himself.”
Letter to the Smyrnaeans, “Wherever the bishop appears, there let the people be; as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.”
Polycarp, disciple of St. John the apostle. Epistle to the Philippians V, “For it is well that they should be cut off from10 the lusts that are in the world, since “every lust warreth against the spirit;” (1Pe_2:11) and “neither fornicators, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, shall inherit the kingdom of God,” (1Co_6:9-10) nor those who do things inconsistent and unbecoming. Wherefore, it is needful to abstain from all these things, being subject to the presbyters and deacons, as unto God and Christ.”
Irenaeus (Against Heresies 1:10:2 [A.D. 189])
“As I said before, the Church, having received this preaching and this faith, although she is disseminated throughout the whole world, yet guarded it, as if she occupied but one house. She likewise believes these things just as if she had but one soul and one and the same heart; and harmoniously she proclaims them and teaches them and hands them down, as if she possessed but one mouth. For, while the languages of the world are diverse, nevertheless, the authority of the tradition is one and the same.”
St. Cyprian of Carthage, bishop and martyr.
“On him [Peter] he builds the Church, and to him he gives the command to feed the sheep, and although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet he founded a single chair, and he established by his own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity. Indeed, the others were also what Peter was *, but a primacy is given to Peter, whereby it is made clear that there is but one Church and one chair.”
All written well before the middle ages and before Constantine. The concept of apostolic authority and preservation of the oral Tradition of Christ through his apostles and successors was readily present from day one.
Many more resources available upon request. Or you can also search through Catholic Answers (www.catholic.net)). They have lots and lots of resources readily available.*
Epistle to the Ephesians, “It is therefore befitting that you should in every way glorify Jesus Christ, who hath glorified you, that by a unanimous obedience “ye may be perfectly joined together in the same mind, and in the same judgment, and may all speak the same thing concerning the same thing,” (1Co_1:10) and that, being subject to the bishop and the presbytery, ye may in all respects be sanctified. Wherefore it is fitting that ye should run together in accordance with the will of your bishop, which thing also ye do. For your justly renowned presbytery, worthy of God, is fitted as exactly to the bishop as the strings are to the harp.” … “It is manifest, therefore, that we should look upon the bishop even as we would upon the Lord Himself.”
Letter to the Smyrnaeans, “Wherever the bishop appears, there let the people be; as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.”
Polycarp, disciple of St. John the apostle. Epistle to the Philippians V, “For it is well that they should be cut off from10 the lusts that are in the world, since “every lust warreth against the spirit;” (1Pe_2:11) and “neither fornicators, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, shall inherit the kingdom of God,” (1Co_6:9-10) nor those who do things inconsistent and unbecoming. Wherefore, it is needful to abstain from all these things, being subject to the presbyters and deacons, as unto God and Christ.”
Irenaeus (Against Heresies 1:10:2 [A.D. 189])
“As I said before, the Church, having received this preaching and this faith, although she is disseminated throughout the whole world, yet guarded it, as if she occupied but one house. She likewise believes these things just as if she had but one soul and one and the same heart; and harmoniously she proclaims them and teaches them and hands them down, as if she possessed but one mouth. For, while the languages of the world are diverse, nevertheless, the authority of the tradition is one and the same.”
St. Cyprian of Carthage, bishop and martyr.
“On him [Peter] he builds the Church, and to him he gives the command to feed the sheep, and although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet he founded a single chair, and he established by his own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity. Indeed, the others were also what Peter was *, but a primacy is given to Peter, whereby it is made clear that there is but one Church and one chair.”
All written well before the middle ages and before Constantine. The concept of apostolic authority and preservation of the oral Tradition of Christ through his apostles and successors was readily present from day one.
Many more resources available upon request. Or you can also search through Catholic Answers (www.catholic.net)). They have lots and lots of resources readily available.*
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skyryder
Guest
Amy your blog is precisely why Benedict is a bad pope. The purpose of a good leader is to build bridges between people not fences.God invites everyone, to the kingdom NOT JUST REPUBLICANS OR CONSERVATIVES. Yes the conservatives are worrying about their agenda to the point they want to exclude anyone who doesn’t agree with them. Yes they are crippling the future with their refusal to modernize. Yes Catholics in the USA are losing numbers, were it not for Mexican Immigration. Both Mexicans and native US Catholics are leaving the church…roughtly about a third. Check out both Gallup and Pew Polls. My comment stands I think there is no hope of commonality between Liberals and Conservatives and progressives like myself, need to look for other congregations.
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skyryder
Guest
Thanks for your thoughts. One of the problems with the Early Church Fathers is they destroyed the works of anyone who disagreed with them, and forged documents to justify their theological and political positions. Information is power.
To verify facts historically, you need to get writings and documents from people outside the organization or nation to verify what really happened. These don’t exist. Self referential proofs." Eg. The Bible is true, because the Bible says so." are invalid.Sorry but archeology shows a totally different picture of early Christianty than what Official Texts propose.Yes, some Books were cooked. eg Flavius Josephus. Yes, some Epistles were written by others and then falsely attributed to Apostles (eg St. Paul’s Pastorals) Yes Gospels were rewritten to fit political agendas Eg. Codex of the Sinai vs the Codex of the Vatican. Yes there are many missing writings eg. Works of Phillip the Evangelist mentioned in Acts. Texts from Nag Hammadi may give clues to what really happened prior to Time of Constantine.-too bad they were suppressed . Lastly there are many disturbing but unexplained links between the teaching of Classical Mystery Relions, and Early Christianity we can document using computer analysis of texts that the Church refuses to discuss. (Why not? )
Tradition is more often than not;; legend. I would prefer to base my life on facts not make believe. The low moral character of early popes is reflected in equally the low moral character of today’s bishops who covered up the Pedophilla Scandal. To quote an old saying: The Flag and Cross are the Refuge Of Scoundrals! Let’s be sceptical and make sure our beliefs are true and not based on propaganda.
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catharina
Guest
By any chance, have you been kidnapped by a cult?
I won’t be joining you in your skepticism. My faith grows and grows.
I value it and I nurture it! (That’s how it works. No one need “prove” my faith.)
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