Is Liberal Catholicism Dead?

[una_fides]

If one looks at sociological studies of why churches grow or decline, 8 key factors have been discovered which lead to success.

As if the growth of churches somehow determines what is truth. There is only one truth. We do not create the truth. We do not create religion. We must be faithful to the truth as revealed by God to his Church, which he has purchased with his own blood.

God does not desire cults and religions to form. The ways to grow churches must be in union with God’s will and not our own, and we determine his will from his revelation. To somehow presume that we have all the answers is to put one’s self in the place of God. The true danger is when we think that God thinks only exactly as we do. His ways and thoughts are high above ours. The Catholic Church does not need to become Protestant to survive. The Church must continue its course as the pillar and foundation of truth as it has existed from the beginning.

I cannot possibly understand the views of many liberals and protestants that somehow presume that the Church immediately after the death of the apostles fell into virtually if not full apostasy, departing completely from the practices of the apostles. These historical fabrications are full of conspiracy theories and speculations, usually based on small bits of or no historical evidence whatsoever. Why not just accept that the disciples of the apostles continued doing things the ways the apostles did them and that they were faithful to the apostles’ message, which they received from Christ himself?

Just because the evidence does not support one’s position does not mean that one then has the right to re-interpret the evidence or try to discredit it as much as possible for the sake of their own personal views.

Liberals abhor rules and regulations, as this discussion forum has evidenced repeatedly. Why not just live holy lives as God has called us to instead of trying desperately to reinterpret history and read your own views into it? Sure it isn’t easy, but we must realize that God has called us to a higher form of living. Like the saints, we must prefer to die rather than offend our God, who desires more than anything unity with us his creatures.

 

[una_fides]

“Let no sin therefore reign in your mortal body, so as to obey the lusts thereof” (Rom 6:12).
“Love not the world, nor the things which are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, is the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the world passes away, and the lusts thereof: but he that does the will of God, abides for ever” (1 John 2:15-17).
“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in the clothing of sheep, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. By their fruits you shall know them. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree brings forth good fruit, and the evil tree brings forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can an evil tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that brings not forth good fruit, shall be cut down, and shall be cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits you shall know them” (Mat 7:15-20).

 

[PerryJ]

Are all of these terms are just a pretty way of saying cafeteria Catholic. They are an attempt to legitimize moral relativism. There are absolute truths and Christ left them with the Church.

 

[skyryder]

Are all of these terms are just a pretty way of saying cafeteria Catholic. They are an attempt to legitimize moral relativism. There are absolute truths and Christ left them with the Church.

I will pray for your conversion.

 

[PerryJ]

Skyryder,

Prayers are always good and I will always accept somone praying for me.

Does your God change his mind? If he is all knowing he cannot change his mind and he must have absolute truths. As such then you must be stating that I do not know Gods absolute truths. That is true. I do not and cannot understand Christ and all of his teachings. That would be like putting a elephant in a thimble. That is why he left the Holy Spirit with the Magesterium. The Magesterium is guided by the Holy Spirit and tells us of Gods absolute truths concerning faith.

In scripture you can see two competing sects concerning God. The Saduceess and the Pharisees, They had different beliefs and bickered with each other. They even had a different number of books in their Bibles. Did not Christ rebuke both of these groups for not understanding. We all read of it in the Bible every week. Do we not listen to Christ and his message. Are we all not still stuck two thousand years ago and have learnt nothing. The issue is not Catholic or Protestant. It is Christian against Satan.

The Devil’s greatest tool is misdirection. Get the Catholics to bicker with the Protestants. Get them to bicker about the words in the Bible. Get them to bicker about how many books are in the Bible. Amazing the Devil already did this trick. Have we not learnt that he is using the same trick again. Divide and conquer.

I follow the Catholic Church because to me it is clear that he would not leave the world in the same mess as it was in before. He left behind the Holy Spirit with the Magesterium to guide us. We already shown that we could not understand and implement ideas from the Bible on our own. My task is not to defeat Protestants. It is to evangelize to defeat the Devil. With Christ’s grace may I do this.

 

[skyryder]

From Oswald Chambers daily devotional June 17th My Utmost for His Highest.

Jesus’ instructions with regard to judging others is very simply put; He says, “Don’t.” The average Christian is the most piercingly critical individual known. Criticism is one of the ordinary activities of people, but in the spiritual realm nothing is accomplished by it. The effect of criticism is the dividing up of the strengths of the one being criticized. The Holy Spirit is the only one in the proper position to criticize, and He alone is able to show what is wrong without hurting and wounding. It is impossible to enter into fellowship with God when you are in a critical mood. Criticism serves to make you harsh, vindictive, and cruel, and leaves you with the soothing and flattering idea that you are somehow superior to others. Jesus says that as His disciple you should cultivate a temperament that is never critical. This will not happen quickly but must be developed over a span of time. You must constantly beware of anything that causes you to think of yourself as a superior person.

There is no escaping the penetrating search of my life by Jesus. If I see the little speck in your eye, it means that I have a plank of timber in my own (see Matthew 7:3-5 ). Every wrong thing that I see in you, God finds in me. Every time I judge, I condemn myself (see Romans 2:17-24 ). Stop having a measuring stick for other people. There is always at least one more fact, which we know nothing about, in every person’s situation. The first thing God does is to give us a thorough spiritual cleaning. After that, there is no possibility of pride remaining in us. I have never met a person I could despair of, or lose all hope for, after discerning what lies in me apart from the grace of God.

 

[Steeltemplar]

The average Christian is the most piercingly critical individual known.

I think this wins the award for the most hypocritical statement I have seen for awhile

 

[skyryder]

So you don’t know who Oswald Chambers is? Type his name on the internet and see what comes up. Give you several clues:
WWI, Egypt, YMCA.

 

[PerryJ]

From Oswald Chambers daily devotional June 17th My Utmost for His Highest.

Skyryder, I believe I try to live by this statement at times I fail. Do you believe that you try to live by this statement?

 

[skyryder]

skyryder;3853612:

From Oswald Chambers daily devotional June 17th My Utmost for His Highest.

Skyryder, I believe I try to live by this statement at times I fail. Do you believe that you try to live by this statement?

We all fall short of following God. I think in pursuing truth we must admonish those in error (Eg Traditionalists) with kindness. We put the matter in God’s care. If that still fails…then we walk away (literally quit the church) and seek other paths to meet our Maker.

 

[richard_wang]

In my occasional visits to Catholic.com’s forums, I’m always fascinated by the number of people on the forums who hold clearly heretical and apostate views.

Also I’m amazed that these heretics and apostates are granted so much latitude and legitimacy.

For example, Skyryder is holds views in total contradiction with the Magisterium.

His lauding of Hans Kung and his wholesale aping of Kung’s ideas automatically makes everything he says suspect.

In all sincerity, do you really think you can convert a person like Skyryder to the truth? Or are you engaging him because of some other ulterior motive?

Debate him if you want, but at a certain point doesn’t it become futile, and won’t allowing him to continue endanger people’s faith?

 

[skyryder]

In my occasional visits to Catholic.com’s forums, I’m always fascinated by the number of people on the forums who hold clearly heretical and apostate views.

Also I’m amazed that these heretics and apostates are granted so much latitude and legitimacy.

For example, Skyryder is holds views in total contradiction with the Magisterium.

His lauding of Hans Kung and his wholesale aping of Kung’s ideas automatically makes everything he says suspect.

In all sincerity, do you really think you can convert a person like Skyryder to the truth? Or are you engaging him because of some other ulterior motive?

Debate him if you want, but at a certain point doesn’t it become futile, and won’t allowing him to continue endanger people’s faith?

I think the purpose of Catholic Answer Forum is to explore current topics, and debate different points of view to discover truth. Neither side of the conservative liberal debate is entirely right or entirely wrong.

The thing which fascinates me is how in the realm of science each century re examines foundational ideas, discovers truth, modifies beliefs and grows in its understanding of the miracle of creation.

Sadly this does not apply to religion. The past is enshrined, errors, false beliefs and all…and no one can question it. This is crazy. If something is wrong eg. the popes refusal to ordain women and it can be demonstrated it makes no sense historically, theologically, or scentifically…then we as Catholics must demand reform.Cleaning up the past, clears up the future.

The other thing I would hope every one in this blog would understand is that we criticize ideas but not people. Each person here is God’s son or daughter and by definition has worth which we may never attack What counts is that person’s relationahip with God, not the pope, or the Vatican.The purpose of my quoting Oswald Chambers above, is to remind participants of this axiom. The other reason for quoting Chambers who is a protestant is remind everyone that non Catholics are right about many things and the Church neither owns God or the truth. So lets Love God, Love our Neighbor, and be a Light to the World. Peace

 

[estesbob]

In my occasional visits to Catholic.com’s forums, I’m always fascinated by the number of people on the forums who hold clearly heretical and apostate views.

Also I’m amazed that these heretics and apostates are granted so much latitude and legitimacy.

For example, Skyryder is holds views in total contradiction with the Magisterium.

His lauding of Hans Kung and his wholesale aping of Kung’s ideas automatically makes everything he says suspect.

In all sincerity, do you really think you can convert a person like Skyryder to the truth? Or are you engaging him because of some other ulterior motive?

Debate him if you want, but at a certain point doesn’t it become futile, and won’t allowing him to continue endanger people’s faith?

I doubt if he is endangering anyones faith given the wacky things he has posted here. Remember he is the guy who claims that there ws no biological difference between men and women. For the few hundreds posts most of us have just been sitting back laughing out you know whats off.

 

[Tigg]

I think the purpose of Catholic Answer Forum is to explore current topics, and debate different points of view to discover truth. Neither side of the conservative liberal debate is entirely right or entirely wrong.

**The thing which fascinates me is how in the realm of science each century re examines foundational ideas, discovers truth, modifies beliefs and grows in its understanding of the miracle of creation.

Sadly this does not apply to religion.** The past is enshrined, errors, false beliefs and all…and no one can question it. This is crazy. If something is wrong eg. the popes refusal to ordain women and it can be demonstrated it makes no sense historically, theologically, or scentifically…then we as Catholics must demand reform.Cleaning up the past, clears up the future.

The other thing I would hope every one in this blog would understand is that we criticize ideas but not people. Each person here is God’s son or daughter and by definition has worth which we may never attack What counts is that person’s relationahip with God, not the pope, or the Vatican.The purpose of my quoting Oswald Chambers above, is to remind participants of this axiom. The other reason for quoting Chambers who is a protestant is remind everyone that non Catholics are right about many things and the Church neither owns God or the truth. So lets Love God, Love our Neighbor, and be a Light to the World. Peace

The reason it does not apply to religion, skyryder, is because “In Jesus Christ, the WHOLE of God’s truth has been made manifest” (CCC #2466).

The truth has already been revealed - it is the function of the Magisterium to keep the truth as it has already been disclosed in its totality.

 

[skyryder]

The reason it does not apply to religion, skyryder, is because “In Jesus Christ, the WHOLE of God’s truth has been made manifest” (CCC #2466).

The truth has already been revealed - it is the function of the Magisterium to keep the truth as it has already been disclosed in its totality.

Your views are based on slogans which unfortunately aren’t true. The Gospels and the Jesus of History are anything but obvious. John Dominic Crossan says we need to dig thru scripture much like one excavates an archeological site. The first thing one does is take inventory. Look at all sources (biblical and non biblical to understand a scripture you are investigating. Next is stratification…ie the order in which an event took placein a given story. .Next is attestation. Are souces independent? Lastly we need to look at how the given passage connects with other parts of the bible in terns or exegeisis.

In trying to understand scripture, one needs to examine culture, mores, traditions etc. of the times. The first century is obscured from our contemporary view by 3 filters: The Past is recorded by wealthy elites, and males,thus it is biased and we do not see the vast majority who were poor and illiterate.How did women see the event?. We view scripture from the standpoint of a modern capitalist, democratic, urban lifestyle. This has nothing to do with an poor agrarian society organized around lords and serfs. We need to look at cross cultural sociological studies of primative societies in Asia or Africa to understand Jews of the first century.
Lastly we need to examine the scripture in light of archeology because the bible doesn’t always gets its facts right.

If one does their homework then and only then,you can take a shot at applying a scripture to modern life. Sadly many of the Magisteriums teachings are wrong. There were mistranslations, forgeries, politics, superstition etc. which have resulted in traditions in the Roman Rite which contradict scripture or contradict reality. These need to be cleaned up.

 

[Tigg]

Skyryder: I do not know your motivation for posting to this thread, but I doubt it is for purposes of your own edification. Your errors as written and bait and hook tactics will no longer draw a response from me. I don’t know what you are looking for, but I doubt you will find in on the CAF.

 

[skyryder]

Skyryder: I do not know your motivation for posting to this thread, but I doubt it is for purposes of your own edification. Your errors as written and bait and hook tactics will no longer draw a response from me. I don’t know what you are looking for, but I doubt you will find in on the CAF.

’m starting to think that mqny forms of religion are far more divisive, negative and hostile to genuine human good that we’ve ever thought. It constantly sets up a ‘us versus them’ scenario and then implements it via everything from negative and hostile words to holy wars, burnings at the stake, and a wide variety of anti-God, anti-human and anti-Christ activities. to me the most dangerous of these are traditionalists and radical conservatives who are most concerned with their own beliefs system , appear to know with certainty “what God wants” and have no scrupples about imposing their ideology on others.

It is only reasonable for each person to sort out their own beliefs given organized religions bad track record and not rely on mad mullahs or pompous popes to tell them how to thnk. There have been too many wolves in shepherd’s clothing.

No wonder rational people walk away from religion and churches in droves every day of every week of every month of every year. Our churches cannot be cesspools of bigotry, hatred, xenophobia, and sheer nonsense parading as disciples of Jesus of Nazareth – Let’s renew the Faith by abandoning the centuries of Constantinan Tradition which has so deeply corrupted the Christian Faith and embracing reform.

 

[missymichelle]

Ah for the good old days when Catholics were discouraged from reading the Bible(only Father can understand it directly) and most had no interest in religious education beyond the good old Baltimore Cat. If the Church could get back to those days then there would be no questioning or descent and peace would cover the earth

 

[estesbob]

Ah for the good old days when Catholics were discouraged from reading the Bible(only Father can understand it directly) and most had no interest in religious education beyond the good old Baltimore Cat. If the Church could get back to those days then there would be no questioning or descent and peace would cover the earth

Those days never existed, In fact were it not for the Catholic Church you wouldnt have a Bible to misinterpet.

 

[PerryJ]

This is of subject; but, I have to respond to statements that are of course.

The Catholic Church is the largest charitable organization in the world. There is not another one even close. It first instituted hospitals, orphanges and the college/university systems. The Faith created the scientific method and the laws of evidence. It not only compiled the Bible it manually printed them for the entire world for 1,500 years. In fact it took a monk one full year to manually copy the Bible. Their fellow monks had to raise food for the monk and do his chores. It should be noted that until the printing press very few people could afford a Bible and even fewer could read.

The printing press allowed the masses to learn to write and read. The Catholic Church soon after started to print the Bible. It also was the leader in all educational areas. This is fact that can be read in any secular history book. Did they burn some Bibles with miss information yes. For example the murderers Bible. This Bible was misprinted and stated that babies should be killed.

We will now see a post that will tell myths about the Catholics being united with Hitler. (Disproved as the Jewsih people just celebrate the Catholci Faith saving so many of them. This was from the survivors of the Holocaust. First hand witnesses.) Then the inquisition will be stated. (Of course we now know that the deaths with the inquisition were less than 5,000 people and the majority of this was caused by the Spanish Monarchy fighting Islam. The Pope even asked them to refrain from such acts. in letters that one can read.) Doesn’t matter Catholics will be blamed for it. Perhaps we will see a comment about Galileo. They wont mention that Galileo’s theories were published prior to his publication by another man. That the Church did nothing to this other man. The fact that Galileo wanted his theory to be stated as law by the Church will be ignored. His attacks of the Pope will be ignored and the fact that his theory that he wanted to be stated as a law was wrong.

If anyone wants to read the truth I can give author’s.

The devil is trying to divide Protestants from Catholics. Divide Catholics from Catholics. Let us get beyond these myths and focus on helping the world.