Is Liberalism A Sin?

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HelpingHands:
Hi,
I just got off the phone with a good friend of mine. She’s a liberal and is probably holier than most people at my church.

She is a typical liberal in that **she is pro-choice, pro-gay rights etc. **

For one thing, she is an **inspiring example of a truely caring person. **

So what’s her big sin? According to the premise of this thread, she is sinful for some of her opinions. :rolleyes: Well, she is one of the best people I know, doesn’t gossip, is loving in her actions to all people, and an uplifting person to be friends with who is a good influence on me. She’s a positive presence in this world. 🙂
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Either you have a very unholy congregation, you do not understand holiness as scripture “Be holy as I am Holy”, “Be holy in every aspect of your conduct”,. or are confusing being a "good’ person with personal sanctification. It can just as much a matter of what you believe and do as much as what your don’t do or don’t believe.
 
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felra:
Either you have a very unholy congregation, you do not understand holiness as scripture “Be holy as I am Holy”, “Be holy in every aspect of your conduct”,. or are confusing being a "good’ person with personal sanctification. It can just as much a matter of what you believe and do as much as what your don’t do or don’t believe.
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Yes, if we only had a natural end then being a “good” person in the secular sense would be sufficient, but we have a supernatural end and our goal should be to be holy.
 
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InSearchOfGod:
Probably depends on your definition of “Liberalism” as I don’t think all Liberals even believe the same thing.

In general, is being wrong about something a sin?
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Yes, definitions are critical. As the Church has defined liberalism it is very much a sin.
 
Yes, definitions are critical. As the Church has defined liberalism it is very much a sin.
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Sorry if it has been mentioned, but how exactly has the church defined liberalism?
 
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Libero:
Sorry if it has been mentioned, but how exactly has the church defined liberalism?
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Please see post #11 as a starting point. The link to the old Catholic encyclopedia will give some insight.
 
**Chapter 13 The Name "Liberalism"

**It is certain that in the present age the word “Liberalism” signifies something not entirely in accord with true Catholicity. It cannot be said that we describe the situation in exaggerated terms. It must be admitted that in the current acceptation of the word, Liberalism and Catholic Liberalism have been explicitly condemned by Pius IX. Leaving aside for the moment those who pretend to profess a certain Liberalism without wishing it to be known as such, there is no doubt that the Liberalist current in Europe and America is anti-Catholic and rationalistic. Pass the world in review; what is meant by the Liberal party in Belgium, in France, in Germany, in Holland, in Austria, in Italy, in the South American Republics? Are they not anti-clerical, anti-Catholic? What is meant by their current language when they speak of the Liberal criterion: a Liberal atmosphere, Liberal thought, etc.? Look at the leaders of these parties, both in Europe and America; do not ninety-nine percent of them understand by Liberalism the application of a pure and mild rationalism, at least to social science? Do they not regard as their sole and most potent enemy what they contemptuously term “Clericalism” “Ultramontanism” and do they not describe the Church as medieval, reactionary, the opponent of progress and the nurse of superstition? When then the term is so intimately associated with a Rationalism so radically opposed to the Church, how may Catholics use it with any hope of separating it from its current meaning?
 
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fix:
Yes, definitions are critical. As the Church has defined liberalism it is very much a sin.
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Doesn’t that depend on why you’re wrong? If you’re in math class and get an answer wrong, that’s not a sin, but when it comes to larger important decisions, like abortion, the wrong answer can be sin because it is a wrong rooted in evil . . .
 
Liberalism, in the terms this book uses, refers to a broad collection of intellectual and social trends in the 19th and late 18th centuries. Basically, it’s the end of the old order - feudalism, mercantilism, unified Catholic Christendom - so if you really wanted to push the term you could probably find “liberalizing” trends all the way back to Luther and the rise of the nation-state (think changes in religion, but also the transition from viewing the world as “Christendom” to nation-states like “England” and “France”).

The paragon of a “Liberal” state, in this sense, is of course the United States, with its rejection of monarchy and official religion and it’s embrace of capitalism. While I’ll conceed many of the changes between, oh, 1776 and 1850 or so are morally troubling, I’m not quite prepared to call all these collectively a sin.

Furthermore, it’s a safe bet that most who would claim that “Liberalism” is a sin are also fans of the free market, capitailst system. However, as Capitalism very much falls under the term “Liberalism,” this is an inherent contradiction.

Unless you subscribe to some pre-modern or anarchistic philosophy, you’re probably a “liberal.” Since we’re pretty much all “liberals,” the term’s pretty meaningless, at least so far as this book uses it. “Liberalism” and the contemporary distinction between liberals and conservatives are two completely different things
 
Tell me this does not apply today.

**Chapter 10 Liberalism of all Shades Condemned by the Church

** On the 18th of June, 1871, responding to a deputation of French Catholics, Pius IX spoke thus:

“Atheism in legislation, indifference in matters of religion, and the pernicious maxims which go under the name of Liberal Catholicism are the true causes of the destruction of states; they have been the ruin of France. Believe me, the evil I denounce is more terrible than the Revolution, more terrible even than The Commune. I have always condemned Liberal Catholicism, and I will condemn it again forty times over if it be necessary.”

**Chapter 11 The Solemn Condemnation of Liberalism by the Syllabus
**

Liberalism has been condemned by the Pope in many and various documents. From these let us select a few epithets which stigmatize it with unsparing emphasis. They will bring out in striking relief the perfidious character of this cunning heresy.

In his Brief to Mgr. de Segur in regard to the latter’s well-known work Hommage Aux Catholiques Liberaux [Hommage to Liberal Catholics], the Pope calls it a “perfidious enemy”,— in his allocution to the Bishop of Nevers, “the present real calamity”; in his letter to the Catholic Circle of St. Ambrose of Milan, “a compact between injustice and iniquity”; in the same document he speaks of it as “more fatal and dangerous than a declared enemy”; in his letter to the Bishop of Quimper, “a hidden poison”; in the brief to the Belgians, “a crafty and insidious error”; in another brief, to Mgr. Gaume, “a most pernicious pest.” All these documents from which we quote may be found in full in Mgr. Segur’s book, Hommage Aux Catholiques Liberaux.

But Liberalism is always strategically cunning. It rejected these very plain condemnations on the ground that they had all been made to private persons, that they were, therefore, of an entirely private character, by no means ex cathedra, and, of course, not binding. Heresy is always sophistically obstinate; it clings to the least pretext, seeks every excuse to escape condemnation. Barricading itself behind these technical defenses, Liberalism practically defied the authority of the Church. Its perfidy was short-lived. A solemn official public document of a general character and universally promulgated would sweep away the cobwebs with which Liberal Catholics had endeavored to bind the authority of the Sovereign Pontiff. The Church could not refuse a formal and decisive word to relieve the anxiety of her children. That word was spoken; it was The Syllabus of Errors, December 8, 1864.
 
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HelpingHands, quote-
“I just got off the phone with a good friend of mine. She’s a liberal and is probably holier than most people at my church. She’s not a Catholic. She grew up as a Mennonite and now is a non church goer. She is a typical liberal in that she is pro-choice, pro-gay rights etc.”

**
HelpingHands,
How could a person who supports genocide, the mass murder of babies (abortion) and homosexuality, be “holier” than most? I don’t believe you know what Christ’s was trying to teach us. Just because you might like someone, does not mean they are “holy’ or living a “Holy” life. Just because someone does “some nice things” does not mean they are holy.

It is because of people like your friend that abortion is legal. It is because of people like your friend that homosexuality is so prevalent and “excepted” in our society and in turn why pedophilia and other sexual deviant behavior and sexual predators are so prevalent in our society.

As Catholic/Christians we not only have to avoid sin, we have to avoid the occasion of sin. It is incumbent on all Christians to obey God’s laws and teach others to do so. A person who supports abortion and homosexuality is not with God, they are against him. They are not teaching God’s laws, they are encouraging others to breaks God’s laws, a grave sin.

Read the* Imitation of Christ*, written by Thomas a Kempis if you want to truly understand what it means to be “holier than most”. Your friend doesn’t get it and I don’t believe you “Get it”. We all fall short of God’s Grace, some more then others. That is why forgiveness from God and reconciliation with God is so important. A person who currently and continuously supporting abortion and homosexually, is not asking for God’s forgiveness and trying to better their relationship with God, they are going against God and offending him.

If your Mother or Father told you something or someone was wrong or evil, would it be right for you to then go behind your parents back and in essence, support the people or behavior which they expressed to you was wrong and evil? Isn’t that what you friend is doing? Much like a child undermining their own parents, we also can undermine our Father in heaven, God.

Instead of “supporting” and “cheering“ for your pro-abortion, pro-homosexual friend, you should be praying for her. That’s the problem with ”Liberalism”. God Bless!
 
Hi Jimmy,
I’m tired of this thread, and I know I won’t convince you. But, I will say that many otherwise basically good people mistakenly support abortion and homosexuality because their world view is different that ours.

They A) don’t think a fetus in the early stage of development has consciousness or enough awareness to be considered in the same way as a born person
B)They think any form of sexual activity between consenting adults is okay

To my friend, this is an intellectually arrived at opinion. I don’t think she’s had an abortion, and she is more chaste than many people. She lives a life dedicated to service of others. Yes, she’s a great person, although as you point out, flawed like the rest of us of course. I promise, though, I won’t introduce you to her. She wouldn’t like debating with you, she’s not into that. She’s very sensitive, and would probably be overwhelmed by your personality. 🙂

God Bless. :gopray2:
 
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HelpingHands:
Hi Jimmy,
I’m tired of this thread, and I know I won’t convince you. But, I will say that many otherwise basically good people mistakenly support abortion and homosexuality because their world view is different that ours.

They A) don’t think a fetus in the early stage of development has consciousness or enough awareness to be considered in the same way as a born person
B)They think any form of sexual activity between consenting adults is okay

To my friend, this is an intellectually arrived at opinion. I don’t think she’s had an abortion, and she is more chaste than many people. She lives a life dedicated to service of others. Yes, she’s a great person, although as you point out, flawed like the rest of us of course. I promise, though, I won’t introduce you to her. She wouldn’t like debating with you, she’s not into that. She’s very sensitive, and would probably be overwhelmed by your personality. 🙂

God Bless. :gopray2:
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One can be oriented soley to other humans, and others can be oriented totally toward God and His works made manifest throught them.
 
I’ve read this book. It is very good and received major praise from the Vatican at the time.

Liberalism in this book is not how we think of it in the political sense. In fact, the Liberalism condemned in this book is rampant in both parties because by definition politics is all about compromise.

Liberalism is reducing God to a matter of personal opinion–which is a definite sin. No one can be wrong about God because human reason is placed above Him.
 
I get labeled with the liberal title all the time, mainly becuase of my belief about social programs/peace & justice. I am pro-life meaning I am pro-every life. Taking another’s life is wrong. I don’t support the death penalty or war. I believe that we should take care of the poor. Everyone should have housing, food and healtcare. Some people say that isn’t the government’s role. But I don’t see how taking care of the poor is any less the government’s job than pro-life or pro-family legislation. The homeless, elderly and children die every day from lack proper food and healtcare. Jesus told us to take care of the least among us. If God has blessed you with material wealth, then you should share with those less fortunate. It’s part of what makes you a Christian. A lot of people thought Mother Theresa was nuts, but she was living the Lord’s commandments. As for homosexuals, I feel sorry for them and pray for them. I don’t support their lifestyle but I don’t think telling them that they’re going to hell does
anything but make them hate Christians. I think Christian love and charity, and prayer, are better than condemnation.

So as to whether I’m a liberal or a conservative my answer is: I am a Christian. 😃
 
A better term to use might be intellectual Liberalism. People who think freely also do freely. Without a firm grounding in Truth they are more likely to swept around by their passions (see our society). This disorder in the mind breeds disorder in the heart, and vis-a-versa.
 
Seems to me that Jewish carpenter we’re all so crazy about was pretty liberal–liberal with His love, compassion, in forgiveness, healing, mercy, giving second chances and turning the other cheek. He showed this radical form of liberalism to society’s outcasts—the poor, widowed, crippled, elderly, children, infirm, diseased, ignorant, tax cheats, prostitutes, hypocrites. He exposed those who elevated legalism, title, pride and status above loving their neighbors as themselves. So if that’s liberalism–sign me up–I’d wear the badge with honor.
 
Island Oak:
Seems to me that Jewish carpenter we’re all so crazy about was pretty liberal–liberal with His love, compassion, in forgiveness, healing, mercy, giving second chances and turning the other cheek. He showed this radical form of liberalism to society’s outcasts—the poor, widowed, crippled, elderly, children, infirm, diseased, ignorant, tax cheats, prostitutes, hypocrites. He exposed those who elevated legalism, title, pride and status above loving their neighbors as themselves. So if that’s liberalism–sign me up–I’d wear the badge with honor.
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That’s not what the book is about at all. People need to understand what Liberalism is as it was defined in the mid to late 1800s. Another word is rationalism, that puts each individuals reason above God.
 
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Genesis315:
That’s not what the book is about at all. People need to understand what Liberalism is as it was defined in the mid to late 1800s. Another word is rationalism, that puts each individuals reason above God.
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Who declared the text you reference to be definitive on the meaning and interpretation of the term. Have you read more than one book on the subject? Have you considered the agenda of the author(s)? Perhaps that’s why some of us reject the temptation to take a broad concept and simply label it “sinful.” If you could explain the relevance of this one 19th century definition to the complexities of modern political dynamics and conclusively demonstrate that liberalism in all its permutations is evil–maybe this would be more interesting. As it is, the conversation you have attempted to start is more than a little simplistic and tedious. :yawn:
 
Island Oak:
Who declared the text you reference to be definitive on the meaning and interpretation of the term.
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Because, the question of this thread specifically asks in reference to the book “Liberalism is a Sin” if we think Liberalism actually is a sin. Liberalism is very broad. But, in the context of the refernced book, it is not in the sense you were descirbing. Seriously, read the book. Intellectual liberalism is rampant in our society, and not just in professed “liberal” political parties. It’s all about reducing God to a matter of personal opinion to be arrived at through reason. It says He is something that should be kept private and left out of our public lives.
 
Once you think about it… Jesus was a liberal. And in this day and age, faithful Catholics (and Christians) are liberal too (actually they always have been). Society is pushing the culture of death and sexual stuff while the “conservatives” are pushing the other way for morals and chasity.

Depends on the type of liberal you are. Being liberal isn’t bad. Question everything and continually seek the truth! Support the truth when you find it. It’s only a sin to be “liberal” when you think and take those actions that you know that is against God and truth.
 
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