Is Liberalism A Sin?

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goofyjim:
Yet sometimes it is the Liberals who are providing the programs for the poor. I am currently disabled and get Medicaid to pay for my medical expenses such as medicine. There are those in the state of PA who want to do away with certain coverages. I don’t think it’s an outright easy answer. I am morally conservative but fiscally liberal.:cool:
Ah but morality does not dictate that the state should care for the poor or that the state should heavily tax individuals to pay for social programs. In fact such thinking eliminates the opportunity for voluntary acts of charity on the part of the individual. Rather, individuals should, morally speaking, be doing charitable acts. We should, apart from coersion by the government, care for the poor. Do you know when voluntary charitable giving was the highest in American history? In the 1980s when Rondald Reagan cut taxes. People had more of their own money to give to charities. In fact, private non-government charities are much more efficient at getting money and aid to the people who need it. They are about 90% efficient in this. The government, on the other hand is about 40% efficient in this.
 
As was stated previously…liberals believe that homosexuals are normal people and homos should be able to marry like anyone else, lets not also forget that liberals are supporters of abortion and are against almost every other doctrine of the Church.
If that were the case then you would’nt have any liberals in the church. I’m not sure that your view of liberal is entirely fair.
 
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Topher:
Ah but morality does not dictate that the state should care for the poor or that the state should heavily tax individuals to pay for social programs. In fact such thinking eliminates the opportunity for voluntary acts of charity on the part of the individual. Rather, individuals should, morally speaking, be doing charitable acts. We should, apart from coersion by the government, care for the poor. Do you know when voluntary charitable giving was the highest in American history? In the 1980s when Rondald Reagan cut taxes. People had more of their own money to give to charities. In fact, private non-government charities are much more efficient at getting money and aid to the people who need it. They are about 90% efficient in this. The government, on the other hand is about 40% efficient in this.
:yup: Yup… well said.
 
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Libero:
If that were the case then you would’nt have any liberals in the church. I’m not sure that your view of liberal is entirely fair.
Why is it not fair?
 
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Topher:
Ah but morality does not dictate that the state should care for the poor or that the state should heavily tax individuals to pay for social programs. In fact such thinking eliminates the opportunity for voluntary acts of charity on the part of the individual. Rather, individuals should, morally speaking, be doing charitable acts. We should, apart from coersion by the government, care for the poor. Do you know when voluntary charitable giving was the highest in American history? In the 1980s when Rondald Reagan cut taxes. People had more of their own money to give to charities. In fact, private non-government charities are much more efficient at getting money and aid to the people who need it. They are about 90% efficient in this. The government, on the other hand is about 40% efficient in this.
I quite agree and often use this argument myself, as I am a registered Republican. Yet I don’t see the need to eliminate all the programs in place with the hope that they will be taken up by charity. Examples would be the Social Security disability program. I have benefitted from this as I became disabled from an early age of 22 and had not opportunity to save up anything of my own. Also, as I stated, the Medicare and Medicaid programs I could not have done without. Unless you are suggesting that due to unfortunate circumstances, I should have been homeless, in a shelter, or been begging for medications. I look more for a cooperative effort between business and government rather than the disbanding of all welfare programs.

Mind you, I may be poor but remain a Republican. Shows it can be done.😃
 
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goofyjim:
Mind you, I may be poor but remain a Republican. Shows it can be done.😃
Say it ain’t so! A poor Republican? Impossible. The libs claim all Republicans are born with a silver spoon in their mouth. :hmmm:
 
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goofyjim:
I quite agree and often use this argument myself, as I am a registered Republican. Yet I don’t see the need to eliminate all the programs in place with the hope that they will be taken up by charity. Examples would be the Social Security disability program. I have benefitted from this as I became disabled from an early age of 22 and had not opportunity to save up anything of my own. Also, as I stated, the Medicare and Medicaid programs I could not have done without. Unless you are suggesting that due to unfortunate circumstances, I should have been homeless, in a shelter, or been begging for medications. I look more for a cooperative effort between business and government rather than the disbanding of all welfare programs.

Mind you, I may be poor but remain a Republican. Shows it can be done.😃
I am not saying that we need eliminate all government social programs. I am just saying that we need not continue to add more and more and the idea that the government must provide for the material needs of the people is not the teaching of the Church. The Church remains silent on the issue but I do believe that my views of economics are corollaries of Chruch teachings.
 
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Topher:
I am not saying that we need eliminate all government social programs. I am just saying that we need not continue to add more and more and the idea that the government must provide for the material needs of the people is not the teaching of the Church. The Church remains silent on the issue but I do believe that my views of economics are corollaries of Chruch teachings.
And I feel mine are as well. I am a supplysider, economically speaking, (I hope I’m not dating myself) and I can see the value of tax cuts to grow the economy and charitable donations. But on the other hand giving to charity should not be based on whether or not there is a tax incentive for it. And when the economy begins to grow the ones that should be expected to relinquish their welfare are the ones that might be considered abusing it. There are still those who can’t work. I’ve seen them. There may not be enough in charitable organizations to provide for their needs. The Church never said pure capitalism with no assistance for the poor is desired either. JPII very often criticized a materialistic west as well as the communistic east. It is up to us, based on his legacy, to determine the balance of the two.
 
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goofyjim:
And I feel mine are as well. I am a supplysider, economically speaking, (I hope I’m not dating myself) and I can see the value of tax cuts to grow the economy and charitable donations. But on the other hand giving to charity should not be based on whether or not there is a tax incentive for it. And when the economy begins to grow the ones that should be expected to relinquish their welfare are the ones that might be considered abusing it. There are still those who can’t work. I’ve seen them. There may not be enough in charitable organizations to provide for their needs. The Church never said pure capitalism with no assistance for the poor is desired either. JPII very often criticized a materialistic west as well as the communistic east. It is up to us, based on his legacy, to determine the balance of the two.
I am not saying that Charity should be based on tax incentives. But when people have more of their own money, they are more able to give to private charities which are much more efficient at getting money to people who really need it than the government is. And by the way, every time the government has cut taxes, there has been an increase in spending on the part of the citizens wich does two things that actually increase the government’s tax revenue. First, more spending means that people are paying more money in sales taxes. Second, it creates more jobs which means that there are more people paying income taxes. Overall the government actually makes more money when it gives reasonable tax cuts than when it increases taxes. If the government has more money, it can spend more on its social programs.
 
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Topher:
I am not saying that Charity should be based on tax incentives. But when people have more of their own money, they are more able to give to private charities which are much more efficient at getting money to people who really need it than the government is. And by the way, every time the government has cut taxes, there has been an increase in spending on the part of the citizens wich does two things that actually increase the government’s tax revenue. First, more spending means that people are paying more money in sales taxes. Second, it creates more jobs which means that there are more people paying income taxes. Overall the government actually makes more money when it gives reasonable tax cuts than when it increases taxes. If the government has more money, it can spend more on its social programs.
I don’t feel we have much of a disagreement. I am not an abject liberal, just a moderate when it comes to some things. I simply feel the question should be applied to certain moral issues and not to an overall philosophy in other areas. I did benefit from the tax cuts Bush passed but then got an effective 10 percent hike in my state income taxes thanks to the PA mayor. It sort of had me irate for a bit. If income taxes are cut it should be done across the board. What is your view on a flat income tax?
 
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goofyjim:
I don’t feel we have much of a disagreement. I am not an abject liberal, just a moderate when it comes to some things. I simply feel the question should be applied to certain moral issues and not to an overall philosophy in other areas. I did benefit from the tax cuts Bush passed but then got an effective 10 percent hike in my state income taxes thanks to the PA mayor. It sort of had me irate for a bit. If income taxes are cut it should be done across the board. What is your view on a flat income tax?
I think that a flat income tax is a bad idea because not every group can afford to give up the same proportion of their income. Giving up 10% of one’s income to taxes may be no big deal if that person makes $10,000,000 a year and has all the money he will ever need. But if a person makes 15,000 a year and is just struggling to get by, then giving up 10% to income taxes is a huge deal. As for the tax cuts not benefittin you, I think you are wrong. Since the tax cuts caused a boost in the economy, the overall effect was positive for the nation and therefore, they at least indirectly benefited you.
 
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Topher:
I think that a flat income tax is a bad idea because not every group can afford to give up the same proportion of their income. Giving up 10% of one’s income to taxes may be no big deal if that person makes $10,000,000 a year and has all the money he will ever need. But if a person makes 15,000 a year and is just struggling to get by, then giving up 10% to income taxes is a huge deal. As for the tax cuts not benefittin you, I think you are wrong. Since the tax cuts caused a boost in the economy, the overall effect was positive for the nation and therefore, they at least indirectly benefited you.
Just my point. It was Mayor Ed Rendell’s tax hike here in PA that got me irate. I did see a reduction in taxes after Bush’s tax cuts.
 
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Topher:
I think that a flat income tax is a bad idea because not every group can afford to give up the same proportion of their income. Giving up 10% of one’s income to taxes may be no big deal if that person makes $10,000,000 a year and has all the money he will ever need. But if a person makes 15,000 a year and is just struggling to get by, then giving up 10% to income taxes is a huge deal. As for the tax cuts not benefittin you, I think you are wrong. Since the tax cuts caused a boost in the economy, the overall effect was positive for the nation and therefore, they at least indirectly benefited you.
The flat tax proposals I have seen exempt the first 30,000 or so of income.
 
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buffalo:
The flat tax proposals I have seen exempt the first 30,000 or so of income.
Really?, I didn’t know that. What about for some one who makes $40,000 a year but has four or five kids?
 
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Topher:
Really?, I didn’t know that. What about for some one who makes $40,000 a year but has four or five kids?
I think they would pay a % of 10,000. A couple of other things - some versions kept the home interest deduction and child exemptions.
 
Well, I think a good conclusion would be to say that social liberalism is sinful, liberal theology is sinful, but one can be a moderate when it comes fiscal positions and not be comitting sin.

Within the Church, perhaps liberal is a useless word. Perhaps we should stick to using Orthodoxy for correct belief and Heterodoxy for erroneous belief.
 
Is that with a big “L” or a small “l”? I could be liberal with my use of salt in my cooking, or my application of sun tan lotion. Liberalism has been part of the great historical tradition, and one would hesitate to condemn the millions who have espoused it. One could equally ask ,Is capitalism a sin? since Pope John Paul condemned its excesses in the strongest terms.There is a political part here in the UK, the Liberal Democrats, whose leader is a practising Catholic. Are they all sinners?
In reality, of course, isms, in themselves are neither sinful or non sinful ;it is people who are sinners, and, no doubt, they are equally representated by Liberals, Conservatives;traditionalists and radicals.
 
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maklavan:
Is that with a big “L” or a small “l”? I could be liberal with my use of salt in my cooking, or my application of sun tan lotion. Liberalism has been part of the great historical tradition, and one would hesitate to condemn the millions who have espoused it. One could equally ask ,Is capitalism a sin? since Pope John Paul condemned its excesses in the strongest terms.There is a political part here in the UK, the Liberal Democrats, whose leader is a practising Catholic. Are they all sinners?
In reality, of course, isms, in themselves are neither sinful or non sinful ;it is people who are sinners, and, no doubt, they are equally representated by Liberals, Conservatives;traditionalists and radicals.

👍 - This whole discussion is hopelessly compromised by the imprecision with which the word is used.​

That pillar of Ultramontane Catholicism the Catholic Encyclopedia points out that liberalism does have two meanings [if there are not more, indeed - but it, mentions only two]; the wholly pejorative meaning is one of them.

Are people sinners ? Of course we are - “anti-liberals” as much as “liberals”. So conservative attitudes are as liable to be sinful as any others: not because they are conservative, but because they are positions adopted by sinful human beings.

It seems to be taken for granted that any and all conservative positions are allowed - and that no liberal positions are legitimate moral choices.

The problem is, which has conceptual priority: the names - or the attitudes named ?

And is a man a liberal, because although he believes in all Catholic teaching, he finds many features of US capitalism morally abhorrent - or is he a conservative, because, despite his lamentable failure to be a good American in all respects, he believes in the Pope’s infallibility ? If his liberalism of attitude, that is chargeable to him for not being an admirer of all aspects of US capitalism, makes him a liberal, then it seems that it is more important for a US Catholic to be a US citizen, than to be an orthodox Catholic in doctrine.

That conclusion is only one of the paradoxes that results when liberalism is made into an absolute - for then liberalism is treated like a Platonic Idea, and disengaged from all the untidy detail of change and history, such as those among which we spend our lives. So it becomes impossible to ask whether what Fr. Sarda & Salvany was castigating in 1886, is what is called liberalism in 2000. Both things are named liberalism - therefore, they are identical in all respects. They are both liberal & bad; so anything else called “liberal” must be equally bad - however good or necessary it may really be. And conversely, what is bad, is liberal: the set of liberal things, becomes convertible with the set of bad things - a disturbing development in both politics & ethics

Which helps to explain why an anti-liberal philosophy such as Nazism is regarded as a manifestation of liberalism - the liberal character of Nazism means that for some there is no moral difference between Adolf [note to US readers: “f” - not “ph”] Hitler, and Sir Winston Churchill: since both were, in different senses, “liberals”. Since liberalism is bad because liberal, the distinctions between the two are overlooked. But if both men were both liberal/bad, then resisting Hitler is a bad/liberal act; because that is to help liberalism. The solution ? The universal rule of the Pope, because the Papacy is the only earthly power which is against badness/liberalism on principle; “papalism” (= extreme Ultramontanism) thus replaces Christianity as the content of Catholicism - just as Lord Acton thought it had in the 19th century.

As badness is identical with liberalism, it follows that what is not liberal, is not bad; conservatism, because anti-liberal, is therefore not bad, but good. Because we are dealing in absolutes, it is absolutely good - therefore, it is beyond criticism: only bad/liberal people would criticise it anyway - this all the more certain because the CC is the special vehicle of all goodness: to criticise the anti-liberal/absolutely good CC is therefore to attack God: and is therefore diabolical.

All of which would explain why satan is called the first liberal by some. ##
 
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Topher:
Well, I think a good conclusion would be to say that social liberalism is sinful, liberal theology is sinful, but one can be a moderate when it comes fiscal positions and not be comitting sin.

Within the Church, perhaps liberal is a useless word. Perhaps we should stick to using Orthodoxy for correct belief and Heterodoxy for erroneous belief.

I think we should enlarge our vocabularies 🙂 ; and avoid assuming that absolute dichotomies like good and bad, liberal and conservative, black and white, must always be sufficient for the judgements we make.​

Words are not prior to things - use of words should be governed by how things are. Theology could be attacked as liberal
  • for not being in Latin
  • not being Ultramontane
  • not being presented for study in manuals
  • not being scholastic like that of Aquinas
  • for being Scotist instead of Thomist
  • for being Liturgical (say) or Biblical, and not Dogmatic
  • for not being purely Roman or Western
  • or even for being erroneous in some way. Unfortunately, the concept of “error” is applied to so great a number of entities, that it is impossible at times to know what is wrong with something said to be erroneous. It may simply be unfamiliar or unwelcome - or, it may not.
If some one is called a cheese-ist, that tells us that he is being labelled: it does not tell us what part in his perceived “ism” is played by cheese. He might worship it - or he might abominate it. Whatever his attitudes may be, those attitudes are logically prior to his being named. Applying names does not cause things - things are causes of names: the only exception is in the case of God, with Whom naming and creating are identical & “simultaneous”.

So with liberalism - or any other “ism”.

For that reason, one can easily be liberal in theology, and a social liberal to boot; and yet be far from heresy in doctrine or dyspraxy in social living. One could perfectly well be what is called a conservative, in almost all respects. One might be too conservative for some conservatives 🙂

“Liberalism” is not an absolute quality (a contradiction in terms), which is fully manifested in all liberals so that all liberals are entirely liberal in all respects. Again, the same is true of conservatism, and of all other "ism"s. Only in God is what God is, identical with that by which God is; and only in God is either of these two things (which are not two, except in our thinking about them) present fully and manifested fully. ##
 
I think many people here, who have addressed the question in this thread, are trying to make it way more complicated than what it is.

Many here are Americans, who live in this country and are familiar with the Democratic Party, the Republican Party and their platforms. They are also aware of the titles of “Liberal” and “Conservative” and what these titles generally mean in our society, our culture and our politics. Americans are not stupid, they know what it means to be a “Liberal “and what “Liberal” organizations, like the ACLU and Plan – Parenthood believe in and stand for. This question wasn’t asked in a vacuum.

Maybe the answer to the following questions might shed some light on the original question.

Of the following, which issues are generally supported by *Liberals *and Liberal organizations and which are supported by Conservatives and *Conservative *organizations?

Support of which of the following issues, would generally constitute a sin?
  • Gay Marriages.
  • Legalized Abortion or so called “right to privacy”.
  • Parental Notification (prior to the abortion of a minor).
  • Partial-Birth Abortion
  • Euthanasia
  • Pornography, or so called “freedom of speech”.
  • The Rights of Criminals.
  • Legalized Drugs.
  • “Separation of Church and State” (prayer in school, displaying the Ten Commandments and Nativity Scenes on public property…etc. etc.)
  • Victims Rights.
  • Strict Laws and Sentencing (especially for pedophiles and sex offenders).
  • Darwin Theory
  • Creationism.
Isn’t true that many American “Liberals” refer to the “Religious Right” as a bad thing? Have you ever heard a “Conservative” complain about the “Religious Right”?

I think many “Liberal” Catholics are in denial and refuse to accept the fact that most of the Liberal views and Liberal organizations are evil. When I say “Liberal”, it is meant in the political sense, generally understood by most Americans.

Final Question:

Would you characterize Plan-Parenthood as a “Conservative” or “Liberal” organization?

If you want to know the answer “Follow the Money”!
 
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