Is Life Teen an orthodox organization?

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HumbleSinner:
I know the story but I’ve never seen any proof. Personally I don’t care for the Lifeteen program. Maybe it works for other parishes but I don’t think it has worked for ours. A couple of friends of mine called and wrote letters to the Lifeteen headquarters regarding the standing around the altar when they still advocating standing around the altar and they just made lame excuses as to why they were still doing it.

I was just wondering if there were any articles that told the real story?
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If I remember correctly my friends were told by the Lifeteen headquarters that they were working on getting approval, some sort of dispensation from Rome so that they could continue standing around the Altar. Lifeteen actually told people that they were sure they were going to get the approval. In other words Lifeteen did what they wanted to until they were told not to by the Vatican. It was as if they were thumbing their noses at Rome.

This is not an organization that I want teaching or influencing my kids.
 
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HumbleSinner:
If I remember correctly my friends were told by the Lifeteen headquarters that they were working on getting approval, some sort of dispensation from Rome so that they could continue standing around the Altar. Lifeteen actually told people that they were sure they were going to get the approval.
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Now that is very interesting. Since I live very close to LT’s founding parish, and I know that many of LT’s liturgical “innovations” started there, and that the parish was very entrenched in them until our new Bishop came to town, I see no reason to doubt what you say.

Now, if someone could find a memo or a newsletter that actually said these things, we could move it out of the “idle gossip and speculation” column and into the “fact” column.
 
Wow those articles really touch upoin how i have been feeling in mass, and what i have been seeing as well. These are no small issues!! thank you all, all i can say is WOW!! Does anybody have any recent articles, or reports about LifeTeens compliance or lack thereof?. The latest article i saw was one in 2004.
 
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michaeljw:
This is why there is a danger to using the Life Teen program as an excuse to tinker with the liturgy. Properly executed, the LT program should be catechising teens to appreciate the beauty of the liturgy so that it can be loved no matter where they go later in life… no matter how well or how poorly it is celebrated.

The teens with whom I traveled to Rome for WYD 2000 had the opportunity to participate in a Latin (novus ordo) Mass at St. Peter’s basilica. No hype, no hoopla, no music, no chairs or kneelers, and no English… I think your average teen would find the scenery nice, but the Mass tediously boring. Yet they were all deeply moved by the beauty of that Mass.

LT should be fostering a genuine love for the Mass as it is supposed to be celebrated. In parishes where this is done, the teens benefit. In parishes where the pastor plays around with the liturgy in the spirit of “inculturation” or some such “children’s liturgy” nonsense, the teens can be misled to believe that Mass should be “entertaining”. In those cases, Scarlet’s and RCN’s fears are genuine.

But to answer this thread’s initial question however, none of this means that the LT program is inherently “heterodox” and should be abandoned or avoided by all parishes. I only mean to emphasize (ad nauseum) that the pastor is the one to take complaints regarding the way the liturgy is conducted. It is a cop-out on our part (or the pastor’s) to lay the blame on Life Teen.

The letter posted by HumbleSinner shows that LT’s intention is to be in full compliance. But even before this letter was issued, there was no legally binding force behind a Life Teen program that tied the hands of the pastor forcing him to make changes he knew were illicit. Life Teen has no magisterial or practical authority over any priest or bishop with which to influence the interpretation of the GIRM.

If there is a LT Mass that is making a mess of the liturgy in your community address this with the pastor. The buck stops there.

Peace,
Michael
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In all reverance and humility, i would dissagree with you on one point, though everything else you have said i find agreeable, and that is. The priest does not have the the final say, in regards to the GIRM, they do not have the authority to decide which rules to follow and oone they would otherwise ignore. The bishop is responsible for making sure that Priests are implementing these rules into their liturgy, and if not they are subject to chastisement. So if there is a problem with the liturgy you take it up with the priest if the priest will not comply then they answer to the bishop, the buck in a sense stops there.
 
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Sean.McKenzie:
In all reverance and humility, i would dissagree with you on one point, though everything else you have said i find agreeable, and that is. The priest does not have the the final say, in regards to the GIRM, they do not have the authority to decide which rules to follow and oone they would otherwise ignore. The bishop is responsible for making sure that Priests are implementing these rules into their liturgy, and if not they are subject to chastisement. So if there is a problem with the liturgy you take it up with the priest if the priest will not comply then they answer to the bishop, the buck in a sense stops there.
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Thank you, Sean for making that clarification. I fully agree with that statement. I should have been more clear before. The GIRM itself states that the priest and bishop are equals from the standpoint that neither can add or take away from the General Instruction without the permission of Rome. I had no intention of stating otherwise, but rather I wanted to enforce that point.

What I was trying to say in my earlier posts was that if a change is being made, the most that the Life Teen program can be blamed for is making poor suggestions. But the pastor - whose job it is to protect the sacred liturgy - has the greater blame for allowing the liturgy to be illicitly altered. If the abuse is widespread throughout a diocese, then an argument can be made that the bishop is largely to blame for not cracking down stronger on the abuse or worse, allowing or encouraging it.

Our new bishop is doing wonders reversing the years of liturgical abuse in our diocese. It’s amazing what a good bishop can do.

If a person witnesses persistent liturgical abuse, then I have said before that the person should first approach the pastor to raise the issue. If the pastor is not cooperative (as has been my experience in the past) then the next step (per Matt 18:15-17) would be to gather other concerned parishioners to formally complain to (and educate) the pastor. In the event that fails, one should then pursue raising the issue with the bishop.

I’d say, Sean, that we are in complete agreement.

Have a blessed Easter!
Michael
 
lifeteen.com/default.aspx?PageID=MEHOME&__DocumentId=8208
I do not see how any one could not see this blasephmy or sacrilige, or at least border line.
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Hereis a link to what i consider to be border line blasphemy or sacrilige, on the part of Life Teen.* It has to do with confessions, i will tell you that much before you watch it, indeed it was a set up, and everyone was in on it*.However!, This is the mentality of Life Teen, they are willing to at the expense of the one of the most holy sacraments, “get their point across” while it may be a good message in the end, the means was complete sacrilige. as the saying goes, “the ends does not justify the means” obviously. To all those who put their children through and support Life Teen, you need to see this. They are even incorperating, what many in the Church have spoken out against to (“get their point across”) namely MTV.
 
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rcn:
However as matter of general LT policy, they didn’t address it until it they were ordered to; it festered for many years. It is a serious issue and DOES in fact say something about attitude at its highest levels.
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To continue that thought, as far as I can tell, all the LT leaders I know of, IRL or online, continue do defend their prior disobedience as appropriate, since they did finally (mostly) abandon the abuses when they were cracked down on. The continuing attitufde they were entitled to disobey until forced to comply is a big part of the reason I’m still leery of LT as a whole. And several years back I also reviewewd the LT webste and found some (since removed) comments in a Q&A section that left much to be desired regarding the reality of hell and the importance of being Catholic. Problems that deep don’t get fixed with forced compliance, but leadership replacement.
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rcn:
The effectiveness and orthodoxy of any LT program is only as good as the people at the parish level. Some parishes have good youth ministers who will filter out some of LT’s “noise” and deliver a solid, orthodox program. But they probably didn’t need LT imposed on them in the first place.
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Big ditto. I think LT has some good ideas, especially on extra-liturgical curriculum, but based on a sampling of LT liturgies (~15, including a handful in out of state vacationing) and what others have also experinced, that the same abuses showed up all over the nation in only (or starting with) LT liturgies at a parish, the LT connection as the probably sorce of infection is undeniable. Sure, some places might filter it out, but with a firmly orthodox program, the local LT programs wouldn’t have to fiter that junk out.

In my own experince both in college and after graduation helping at a differnet college student center in the twon I was employed in, the teens from parishes with LT programs had a harder time adjusting to a liturgy where everybody was a student (no special treatment for them in particular), and many left for other Christian sects where they could get the same style of Sunday service they were used to. The majority of vocations I see came from parishes with homegrown teen programs or those that were very very careful about how much of the old LT system they implemented.
 
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dhgray:
The biggest problem I see here is lack of understand and an unwillingness to support something other and the OLD way. I know individuals from Life Teen. They are great. OK, they may not be your typical Catholic, ok so they like Loud music, ok so they actually sing and dance in Church. THE MASS IS A CELEBRATION. Too many “ROBOT” Catholic forget that.
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While you are correct that, yes it is a celebration,** it is even more so a sacrifice**, it is too bad that people are so willing to look that over but would rather perpetuate the celebration side of it. I will use an example, while our spereated brothers and sisters in Christ acknowledge that Chirst’s redemption was worked through the sacrifice on the cross, they put more emphasis on the resurection than the sacrifice. And yes the resurection is impportant, but we would not have the resurrection if he had not been handed over and killed and crucified. This is pretty much the same kind of logic!
 
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lacoloratura:
Why does it have to be traditional hymns or nothing? Why is it that we cannot allow for varying taste in music at Mass, as long as the content is appropriate and the quality of the music, within the genre, is good? (And please don’t tell me that there is no such thing as good quality contemporary music. That is a matter of opinion, not fact.)

Why do I post here? I don’t, often. But as a professional church musician, I get frustrated when people make blanket criticisms.
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I would be careful about naming yourself as a professional “church musician” i thought yu were in a ministry not a profession, am i wrong?
 
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Windmill:
I just finished reading this entire thread, and I have to say that it has been an eye-opening experience. I’d have to say that this is the best thread I’ve read on these boards (minus the personal attacks). I hope people keep contributing.

A couple of small things:
  1. “Celebrate” As mentioned above, its historical meaning has been “to come together”. We should not equate “celebrate” with “hillarity”. We aren’t having a party, we are honoring a person’s death and resurrection.
  2. Liturgical dance is not a universal experience. In Africa, dancing is ONLY done in as an act of worship. It is never done in a social or entertainment arena.
In the Western culture, dancing is seen as an erotic behavior (let’s just be honest). It’s between a man and a woman, or it is a person moving in suggestive ways. That’s our culture, and it’s a part of us. So, like it or not, if we see a person dancing, it carries an erotic conotation with it. That makes it inappropriate for Western liturgies. No good will intentions from a youth director or liturgical coordinator can change what is hardwired in Westerners’ brains.

So you can’t say, “They do it in Africa, so why not here?” Our culture makes it at variance with the spirit of the liturgy.
  1. Just because a song is about Jesus doesn’t make it proper for the Mass. I liked the comment above about a “Jesus High”. Banal music appeals to our lower instincts. It appeals to emotions, makes us clap our hands and swing about like we’ve lost our minds. It’s the kind of stuff we hear on the radio, and that’s all well and good. I love to dance to Caedmon’s Call and Gypsy Kings as I vaccuum the living room. I like to “play the drums” on the steering wheel when an 80’s rock classic comes on. GREAT. For that type of setting.
However, for the Sacred Liturgy, sacred music is in order. That doesn’t simply mean it’s about Jesus. It means that the manner of the music lifts one’s eyes heavenward to contemplate the holiness and magnamity of the ever-living, ever-loving, Eternal God. It leads one to inner contemplation, which is the ESSENCE of “active participation in the liturgy”. If we are so cought up in emotional externals, how on God’s green earth are we going to be lead to inner contemplation of the mystery on Christ?

I’d just add my experience with Gregorian chant. As a member of a GC group, we have always gotten great responses from people. We’ve done Holy Hours, Vespers, Masses, and even a funeral. We just did an entire Mass, and people are begging for more. We’ve gotten comments such as, “I felt HOLY going up to receive communion”, “It sounded like angels from heaven”, “Beautiful”, and “THAT’S how every Mass SHOULD be”. Contrast that with the expressions of mediocrity that you see on the faces of teens who leave the rock Masses in this area, and you start to see the wisdom of Mother Church in Vatican II’s Sacrosanctum Concillium.

That reminds me, as I continue this “stream of consciousness” rambling… Why is it that people don’t want a LT type Mass for a funeral, but they DO want GC (many have told us that they want us to sing at their funerals). Well, if GC is “right” for “coming together” (or celebrating) for Joe Smith death, why not for Jesus’s death?

Okay, I’m done.

Rich
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I for one feel like i owe you a big thanks, you have presnted your view, and in fact my view, without even knowing it, you have pretty much touched upon what i wanted to say, but didn’t get around to. I feel this is probably the most fair and balanced post on this thread, not with emotion, but with logic, , gentelness, and revernce. You are an example to all of us. You have great perspectiv, and not just because we share the same views, but because you present it in a professional and non-emotional manner. Good Job, keep up the work,!! THANK YOU!!! 👍:yup::clapping::dancing::tiphat: I TIP My hat to you!!!
 
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Sean.McKenzie:
I would be careful about naming yourself as a professional “church musician” i thought yu were in a ministry not a profession, am i wrong?
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You are a professional musician if creating music puts food on your table. You are a professional church musician if creating music in a church puts food on your table. There doesn’t need to be a conflict between that and ministry.
 
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Sean.McKenzie:
While you are correct that, yes it is a celebration,** it is even more so a sacrifice**, it is too bad that people are so willing to look that over but would rather perpetuate the celebration side of it. I will use an example, while our spereated brothers and sisters in Christ acknowledge that Chirst’s redemption was worked through the sacrifice on the cross, they put more emphasis on the resurection than the sacrifice. And yes the resurection is impportant, but we would not have the resurrection if he had not been handed over and killed and crucified. This is pretty much the same kind of logic!
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It is a celebration because it is a sacrifice.

As well, we say, “let’s celebrate his birthday”, a commemoration of a past event, but also the bringing about of an event in the present. How much more so with the Eucharist? “Do this in remembrance of me.” So, we celebrate the Eucharist – that is, we bring a past event into the present – but unlike all other memorials, this memorial becomes truly present. We celebrate the Eucharist – we bring about the re-presentation of the Sacrifice of Calvary.
 
The question of orthodoxy is hard to answer. Does Life Teen profess a belief without reservation in the truths of the Creed and the teaching of the Magesterium? Does Life Teen support the GIRM? If the answere to these questions are “yes,” then Life Teen is orthodox, while some acting under its auspices may not be.

What if I were to ask:

“Is the Catholic Church orthodox? I see poor liturgies and disobedient priests. Therefore it would seem to me that the Church is not orthodox.”

By definition, the Church is orthodox though some within the Church may not be. Let’s extend that same consideration to Life Teen. Be critical, but with charity. In all things, charity.
 
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KBarn:
What if I were to ask:

“Is the Catholic Church orthodox? I see poor liturgies and disobedient priests. Therefore it would seem to me that the Church is not orthodox.”

By definition, the Church is orthodox though some within the Church may not be. Let’s extend that same consideration to Life Teen. Be critical, but with charity. In all things, charity.
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That is such simple beautiful reasoning! My head hurts just trying to think of all the different situations that line of thinking could be extended too…

Thanks KBarn!!!

In Christ,
Pisio
 
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Prometheum_x:
It is a celebration because it is a sacrifice.

As well, we say, “let’s celebrate his birthday”, a commemoration of a past event, but also the bringing about of an event in the present. How much more so with the Eucharist? “Do this in remembrance of me.” So, we celebrate the Eucharist – that is, we bring a past event into the present – but unlike all other memorials, this memorial becomes truly present. We celebrate the Eucharist – we bring about the re-presentation of the Sacrifice of Calvary.
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Excellant points
So, we celebrate the Eucharist – that is, we bring a past event into the present – but unlike all other memorials, this memorial becomes truly present. We celebrate the Eucharist – we bring about the re-presentation of the Sacrifice of Calvary.
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If we truly understand what the focus and what the mass is, we therefore cannot equate such a ritual and "re"presentation of Calvary, with that of a birthday party.
  1. At birthday parties, the celebration takes on more of a self-centered atmosphere. At parties we dance, we invite people, theres loud music.
  2. The true “celebration” of the Mass is similar to that of a funeral or a wake. At a funeral we remember someone who has died, loved ones and great people, like JPII The great. We would not play loud and secular music, because it is in no way appropriate for that time, instead we sing hymns, or psalms from the bible. We “celebrate”, or remember someones life, and after, sometimes people host a dinner or some kind of reception in honor of the person who past. The celebration of that sense is more closely connected and makes more sense in comparison to the mass. However, couple of points remain: Christ did die, but he also was raised up, resurrected from the dead, by his own power. The meal is not merely to honor Christ but to remember him in the real sense of the word, to literally "re"present Christ’s true body as “REAL” and to eat his flesh. It is a solemn "re"presentation of the Last Supper and of the cross, Christ the offered, the offerer and the alter.
Life Teen, in comparison falls under catagory 1.
 
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Sean.McKenzie:
Excellant points
If we truly understand what the focus and what the mass is, we therefore cannot equate such a ritual and "re"presentation of Calvary, with that of a birthday party.
  1. At birthday parties, the celebration takes on more of a self-centered atmosphere. At parties we dance, we invite people, theres loud music.
  2. The true “celebration” of the Mass is similar to that of a funeral or a wake. At a funeral we remember someone who has died, loved ones and great people, like JPII The great. We would not play loud and secular music, because it is in no way appropriate for that time, instead we sing hymns, or psalms from the bible. We “celebrate”, or remember someones life, and after, sometimes people host a dinner or some kind of reception in honor of the person who past. The celebration of that sense is more closely connected and makes more sense in comparison to the mass. However, couple of points remain: Christ did die, but he also was raised up, resurrected from the dead, by his own power. The meal is not merely to honor Christ but to remember him in the real sense of the word, to literally "re"present Christ’s true body as “REAL” and to eat his flesh. It is a solemn "re"presentation of the Last Supper and of the cross, Christ the offered, the offerer and the alter.
Life Teen, in comparison falls under catagory 1.
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Calvary with no Resurrection is leaves us with nothing more than a funeral dirge. The Resurrection with no Calvary is meaningless.

If we celebrate the one without the other, we miss the point.

I will agree that today’s popular Christian culture (including protestants) tends to be a celebration of the resurrection with no great regard for the crucifixion. But we must not overcorrect their extreme by going to the opposite extreme.
 
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