Is LifeSiteNews anti-Francis?

[Annie]

No, we are talking about people who are flouting the rules of the Church in a public way, and then showing no repentance.

Do you think someone like Milo Yainopoulis, if he were unrepentant to the end, should get a Catholic funeral because his mother would be unhappy if the Church refused?

 

[graciew]

Well, according to very weird eyes, a capo maffia may be a god parent if he is prim and properly married by the Church. " Pour la galerie", what impediment is there?
I am very sorry but poverty around us is a scandal. People starving is a scandal Human trafficking is a scandal . Being ostentatious in the face of those who live from hand to mouth is a scandal.
But we have it upside down. " Pour la galerie " isn’t Jesus
If you say that somebody dying alone will not be forgotten by God’s mercy,what sort of theatrical performance is to deny ourselves what God is willing to grant?
And as about crimes against humanity,it is way beyond my grasp how it can be brought up to compare. …

 

[graciew]

his mother would be unhappy if the Church refused?

This is demeaning the good faith of a mother.or a father … We are talking real…not " unhappy because" as a whim
No…a mother knows what is meant .And honestly

 

[Luke6_37]

1. what the church teaches regarding female ordination, birth control and “LGBTQ” relationships ARE doctrine. They might not be dogmatically defined, but they are DOCTRINE. And some say St. Pope John Paul II did define female ordination as dogma.

Yes, they are doctrines. However, they are largely arrived at by reason, not divine revelation. If it had been JPII’s intention to dogmatically defined ordination as something for men only, there wouldn’t be any uncertainty about it. At least that’s how I see it.

1. Again, I’m not going to sit here and defend Raymond Arroyo, but let me ask you this: were you equally critical of NCR when they actively challenged St. Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI? Also, I’ve never once heard Raymond deny the authority of the Pope.

I’m not going to defend NCR either. In 1968 they got in trouble for publishing the birth control commission’s report, which was interpreted as undermining the authority of Paul VI. EWTN should be held to a higher standard. There are several links in this topic to shows hosted by Arroyo. You can decide for yourself if he deserved to have caught the attention of Spadaro as someone who is producing hit pieces against the Pope.

1. Catholic Doctrine cannot be changed - it can only be further defined, but it can’t change. It is doctrine that only men can be ordained, which means that women can never be ordained. It is BIBLICAL that homosexual acts are sinful, therefore it is doctrine & dogma that homosexual acts are sinful. And birth control has been against Catholic teaching for 2000 years, Pope Paul VI confirmed that and applied over 1900 years of teaching to the pill. So that’s at least doctrine too.

Doctrines develop. That means they change in form & function, but not in identity. If things were simple as you describe, the debate would be over. Unfortunately, it’s not that simple.

What does it mean to be ordained? Bishops, priests & deacons are all ordained, but they have different charisms. The ancient church ordained female deacons, and some eastern churches still do. What do we make of that?

Biblical arguments are problematic, because the social & cultural realities of 1st century Rome & Palestine were nothing like they are today.

Paul VI issued his ruling on birth control as he had the authority to do. However, the birth control commission he set up to study the matter looked at the same evidence and came up with a different conclusion. So the debate continues.

1. Finally, the people who are criticizing the Pope’s advisers are criticizing their view on changing discipline, which is valid because because discipline is often based on Dogma and Doctrine.

God Bless

When Arroyo interviews a man about his controversial book that claims Pope Francis is leading the Church astray, that’s more that an issue of discipline.

 

[MidwestGuy]

Actually, according to Father Edward McNamara a funeral Mass may be denied to manifest sinners to whom a Church funeral cannot be granted without causing public scandal to the faithful.

I think most Catholics believe an LGBTQ person should be given a Church funeral and would be scandalized to hear that this was denied. So really, the decree isn’t based on Canon law at all, but on the Bishops unique authority. That would explain why its only binding in his jurisdiction.

I think I’ll take the word of my Bishop over someone who writes for a publication that was told to remove Catholic from their name.

And Bishop Paprocki is a canon lawyer and also holds a law degree.

 

[graciew]

I think I’ll take the word of my Bishop

We are under the wings of our priest and Bishop, so no arguing against that . At the end of the day,we are to be obedient to our Church ,whether we understand or not.
And we can grow in understanding and faith as well ,that takes a bit more time and prayer sometimes, or particular experiences that help us grow in one way or another

 

[Luke6_37]

Luke6_37:

Actually, according to Father Edward McNamara a funeral Mass may be denied to manifest sinners to whom a Church funeral cannot be granted without causing public scandal to the faithful.

I think most Catholics believe an LGBTQ person should be given a Church funeral and would be scandalized to hear that this was denied. So really, the decree isn’t based on Canon law at all, but on the Bishops unique authority. That would explain why its only binding in his jurisdiction.

I think I’ll take the word of my Bishop over someone who writes for a publication that was told to remove Catholic from their name.

And Bishop Paprocki is a canon lawyer and also holds a law degree.

Father Edward McNamara’s piece was published by EWTN. Maybe you should be more diligent about verifying your facts before passing judgement on a member of the clergy.

 

[MidwestGuy]

Father Edward McNamara’s piece was published by EWTN. Maybe you should be more diligent about verifying your facts before passing judgement on a member of the clergy.

This is pretty laughable coming from you.

 

[Luke6_37]

Luke6_37:

Father Edward McNamara’s piece was published by EWTN. Maybe you should be more diligent about verifying your facts before passing judgement on a member of the clergy.

This is pretty laughable coming from you.

I am not judging Bishop Paprocki based on false assumptions. It’s his diocese to run. If LGBTQ Catholics are not welcome there, they are better off moving to Chicago.

 

[pnewton]

I am not judging Bishop Paprocki based on false assumptions. It’s his diocese to run. If LGBTQ Catholics are not welcome there, they are better off moving to Chicago.

Since the issue is funerals, yes, all the deceased ones should move to Chicago.

 

[Annie]

First, scandal as used in our everyday language means something different than it does when used by the Church. We might say something is a scandal when we respond “he did that?!?!?!?!” and we call it a scandal when a very bad situation is ongoing due to lack of action on the part of authorities: it’s a scandal that they are selling drugs openly over on First Street the way they are.

However, for the Church, scandal is different. From the CCC: “2284 Scandal is an attitude or behavior which leads another to do evil.”

Bishop Paprocki is saying that allowing people who have publicly flouted the Church’s moral teachings and not repented of those acts before death cannot be given a Catholic funeral. Why? Because to do so would indicate to others that committing the act in question is not evil.

Any person, such as a Mafia capo, who was a public sinner who was given a Catholic funeral ought to be assumed to have repented before death, otherwise he would not have been given a Catholic funeral.

The reason the issue of people in SSMs is being singled out is that right now many people are not clear on the sinfulness of the act, and it has only recently been legalized. The rule is simply the same as it always has been, but Bishop Paprocki clarified for the pastors in his diocese that this rule does indeed extend to those who are in SSMs.

 

[Annie]

I did not understand what you meant by saying that a parent’s faith would be demeaned … but I think you did not have time to finish your post, so maybe it would have been clearer as you went along?

 

[Annie]

Luke, I apologize for my earlier uncalled-for comment.

 

[Luke6_37]

Luke6_37:

I am not judging Bishop Paprocki based on false assumptions. It’s his diocese to run. If LGBTQ Catholics are not welcome there, they are better off moving to Chicago.

Since the issue is funerals, yes, all the deceased ones should move to Chicago.

Why should they stay - living or dead? They are clearly not wanted. Better to join a community where all sinners are treated equally.

 

[Luke6_37]

Luke, I apologize for my earlier uncalled-for comment.

Thank you. Religion & politics are always tough topics to discuss.

 

[Luke6_37]

I did not understand what you meant by saying that a parent’s faith would be demeaned … but I think you did not have time to finish your post, so maybe it would have been clearer as you went along?

A funeral is not the time to make a point about sin. It’s a time to comfort the grieving and pray for the departed.

You would think this lesson would be universally understood given the dark history of the Church inflicting pain on the families of suicide victims and babies who died before they could be baptized. Apparently, it is not.

The only messages grieving parents should hear from the Church about their dead child’s fate is about God’s mercy and desire that all of His children will be saved.

 

[graciew]

not repented of those acts before death cannot be given a Catholic funeral

He said without " some sign of repentance…" referring to funerals

There is something so individualistic and so much leaving family and community aside who may honestly be asking for a service as once asked for baptism,that it escapes my understanding.
Natural deaths,accidents,suicide,illnesses, not once have we heard that those departing would be left without the accompanying of their family and loved ones and a funeral.
But there may be more to the snippet that one doesn’t t know. And he is a Bishop .

And as far as scandal,yes,it was used with its proper meaning.
Pope Benedict explained it much better than me,obviously…
Off topic but you may want to read it
https://w2.vatican.va/content/bened...en-xvi_mes_20081208_xlii-world-day-peace.html

And Annie,he used the same words" the scandal of poverty “. Unforgettable. Piercing .
Have the article in Spanish just to support what I am stating " el escándalo de la pobreza y la inequidad”. Almost echoing the same words used by Archb.Bergoglio in Rome" el escándalo de la pobreza y la exclusión social" ( the scandal of poverty and social exclusion)

Para el Papa, la pobreza en la Argentina es un "escándalo" - LA NACION

I do not think there is anything else I can add to this conversation,Annie.

 

[pnewton]

Why should they stay - living or dead? They are clearly not wanted.

You seem to be equating the sin with the sinner.

If I wanted a Muslim funeral because I thought they were nice, would it be reasonable to expect that I, who do not live as a Muslim, should have the right to such a funeral? Yet this does not mean that the Muslim community rejects me.

Better to join a community where all sinners are treated equally.

You do have a point I think bears notice; the idea of treating all sins equally. I would have to question the justice of any rule a bishop has that is not equitable. Would the same diocese refuse funerals for heterosexuals who died while still living with another in cohabitation? Would the same hold true for those who were remarried outside the Church living in adultery?

 

[Annie]

Yes, the diocese ought to refuse a funeral to an adulterer who dies unrepentant, according to canon law. Here is an article about this, which contains a link to the relevant part of canon law: http://canonlawmadeeasy.com/2007/11/17/can-a-public-sinner-have-a-catholic-funeral/#forward

It is important the remember that the funeral is denied only to those who die unrepentant.

 

[Annie]

Yes, I agree that there may be nothing more either of us can say; except l want to point out quickly that even a ppope can use a word with its every day meaning instead of its theological meaning!