Is Love really the greatest? (1 Corinthians 13:13)

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**The fifth test
  1. Love is greatest because she is most like God. **
This is the test we are currently considering (unless, of course, someone has something more to say about the previous four).

And so we know and rely on the love God has for us. God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him.

(1 John 4:16)

“God is love,” writes my old friend Saint John. And, as someone pointed out, the Bible nowhere says that God is Faith. God is the object of our Faith, not faith in the object.

We’re still thinking this test through and seeing how it applies to Faith and Love and the other virtues. If anyone has any thoughts on this, please let us know.

🙂
 
Jim_Baur said:
spockrates

You asked: “do I agree with you?”

I am not sure.

I do not have the sanity to read all of the posts, sorry.

I guess we do.

Again, I am sorry for not having the energy or time to read all of the posts.

God Bless,

Jim Baur
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So, there you have it, Jim. There is no need to read all 60 or so posts. At this point, the last post is really all you and I need to consider if you want to help me figure this out. Trying to understand Love is something worth figuring out, I believe. For that is Saint Paul’s prayer for us:

And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, and to know this love that surpasses knowledge—that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God.

(Ephesians 3:17-19)

👍
 
JRKH said:
I am going to answer no to this.
The reason is not because I don’t think that God is Love, but rather that humans will quickly translate “Love is God” into something less than God.
For example, I note that the pictures you have been posting relating to Love are of a sensual, man and woman, sexy type. I don’t mean that you are necessarily thinking this way, but the Love of God is something much different.
The Love of God is best depicted by Christ upon the Cross, not by women in scanty dresses and sexy poses.

But man - will not wish to see “Love=God” as Christ on the Cross. Such Love requires to much suffering and seriousness for sensual man.
Man would prefer to see it as sensual love and thus distort God’s Love for his own pleasure.

God is Love, - Gods Love
Love is God so long as it is God’s Love we are talking about.

Peace
James
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James:

Yes, of course, I agree with you that God is love! I’m not doubting what Saint John is saying; I’m just wondering what he means. Perhaps, together, we can figure it out.

🙂

Please let me ask you this:

Do you think God is loving, merciful, just and wise?
 
spockrates said:
James:

Yes, of course, I agree with you that God is love! I’m not doubting what Saint John is saying; I’m just wondering what he means. Perhaps, together, we can figure it out.

🙂

Please let me ask you this:

Do you think God is loving, merciful, just and wise?
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Without a doubt.

Peace
James
 
spockrates said:
Agreed!

👍

Would you say mercy is a type, or perhaps and attribute, of Love? I mean, when I show mercy am I loving someone?

🙂
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Showing mercy is indeed showing Love IF that mercy does in fact proceed from Godly Love, as opposed to selfish Love.

The difference might be understood by what outcome is desired by the show of mercy.
If I show mercy in the hopes of being loved by others who will then be loyal to me then my mercy is not of God.
If I show mercy to another for the Love of God, and the purpose of demonstrating God’s Love and mercy, thereby increasing God’s Love in the world and bringing others to God through such actions, and without regard to may own loss or gain, then the mercy would be of God.

Peace
James
 
JRKH said:
Showing mercy is indeed showing Love IF that mercy does in fact proceed from Godly Love, as opposed to selfish Love.

The difference might be understood by what outcome is desired by the show of mercy.
If I show mercy in the hopes of being loved by others who will then be loyal to me then my mercy is not of God.
If I show mercy to another for the Love of God, and the purpose of demonstrating God’s Love and mercy, thereby increasing God’s Love in the world and bringing others to God through such actions, and without regard to may own loss or gain, then the mercy would be of God.

Peace
James
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Yes, that sounds reasonable to me. Only under the right conditions and for the right motives is an act of mercy and act of love. Love then is mercy, but is not limited to only mercy.

👍

Do you think, then, that God is mercy?

I mean, mercy is not all that God is, but since mercy can be love, then God can be mercy (and more). Don’t you think?

🙂

For the LORD your God is a merciful God; he will not abandon or destroy you or forget the covenant with your forefathers, which he confirmed to them by oath.

(Deuteronomy 4:31)

The Lord our God is merciful and forgiving, even though we have rebelled against him.

(Daniel 9:9)
 
Spockrates,

While I am greatful for the oportunity to help you (and myself) understand these things better, I feel I must offer to you one of my favorite source documents. It is a treatise (actually 4 treatises) by St Catherine of Sienna. These treatises were written down by others as she dictated them while in a state of ecstasy.
St Catherine is one of only 3 Women to receive the title “Doctor of the Church”. (there are only 33 people total who have recieved this title from The Church.

Anyway - I think you will find her work to be fastinating to read, and very helpful in understanding the questions you are trying to answer.

I will have to warn you that much of what is written is written as answers directly from The father, and as such are written in “First Person God”. As if God himself were speaking through St Catherine. Some people find this a bit disconcerting. I doubt if you would be one of them.

Anyway - Here is a link to a complete on-line translation.
** THE DIALOGUE OF ST CATHERINE OF SIENA ******
Look it over and see if it helps you understand better. I particularly commend to you sections 6 through 8 in the first treatise and sections 1 and 2 in the second treatise. I think these will speak most directly to this thread topic.

Peace
James
 
spockrates said:
Yes, that sounds reasonable to me. Only under the right conditions and for the right motives is an act of mercy and act of love. Love then is mercy, but is not limited to only mercy.

👍

Do you think, then, that God is mercy?

I mean, mercy is not all that God is, but since mercy can be love, then God can be mercy (and more). Don’t you think?

🙂

For the LORD your God is a merciful God; he will not abandon or destroy you or forget the covenant with your forefathers, which he confirmed to them by oath.

(Deuteronomy 4:31)

The Lord our God is merciful and forgiving, even though we have rebelled against him.

(Daniel 9:9)
Click to expand...
Mercy is certainly an attrubute of a Loving God.

Peace
James
 
JRKH said:
Spockrates,

While I am greatful for the oportunity to help you (and myself) understand these things better, I feel I must offer to you one of my favorite source documents. It is a treatise (actually 4 treatises) by St Catherine of Sienna. These treatises were written down by others as she dictated them while in a state of ecstasy.
St Catherine is one of only 3 Women to receive the title “Doctor of the Church”. (there are only 33 people total who have recieved this title from The Church.

Anyway - I think you will find her work to be fastinating to read, and very helpful in understanding the questions you are trying to answer.

I will have to warn you that much of what is written is written as answers directly from The father, and as such are written in “First Person God”. As if God himself were speaking through St Catherine. Some people find this a bit disconcerting. I doubt if you would be one of them.

Anyway - Here is a link to a complete on-line translation.
** THE DIALOGUE OF ST CATHERINE OF SIENA** ****
Look it over and see if it helps you understand better. I particularly commend to you sections 6 through 8 in the first treatise and sections 1 and 2 in the second treatise. I think these will speak most directly to this thread topic.

Peace
James
Click to expand...
Thank you, James! Yes, I will read it. And if I have questions about it, will you do your best to answer them for me?

👍
 
JRKH said:
Mercy is certainly an attrubute of a Loving God.

Peace
James
Click to expand...
Yes, certainly! I don’t think there is anything wrong with saying God is Mercy, if by saying this we mean that Mercy is an attribute of God that He has completely and practices consistently and perfectly.

👍

We might then say that God is Justice, for He is perfectly and completely and consistently just. Justice is one of His attributes.

And we might also say God is Wisdom, for He is perfectly and completely and consistently wise. Wisdom is one of His attributes.

And we might say this of other attributes of God as well; don’t you think? I mean, God is not limited in His attributes to only Love. Love He is, but so much more! God, it seems fitting to say, is perfect in EVERY way, not just in Love.

That’s what I’m thinking. What are your thoughts?

🙂
 
spockrates said:
Yes, certainly! I don’t think there is anything wrong with saying God is Mercy, if by saying this we mean that Mercy is an attribute of God that He has completely and practices consistently and perfectly.

👍

We might, then, say that God is Justice, for He is perfectly and completely and consistently just. Justice is one of His attributes.

And we might also say God is Wisdom, for He is perfectly and completely and consistently wise. Wisdom is one of His attributes.

And we might say this of other attributes of God as well; don’t you think? I mean, God is not limited in His attributes to only Love. Love He is, but so much more! God, it seems fitting to say, is perfect in EVERY way, not just in Love.

What are your thoughts?

🙂
Click to expand...
I think that once you start reading St Catherines writings you will see how interconnected all of the virtues/attributes are, and how all are tied together by Love. Love of God and Love of neighbor for Love of God.

Peace
James
 
JRKH said:
I think that once you start reading St Catherines writings you will see how interconnected all of the virtues/attributes are, and how all are tied together by Love. Love of God and Love of neighbor for Love of God.

Peace
James
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Yes, James, I hope to see that. But before I do I should ask you: Does St. Catherine answer my question? Does she say whether or not God is Justice and Wisdom as well as Love? Or does she not have this answer for me?

🤷
 
spockrates said:
Yes, James, I hope to see that. But before I do I should ask you: Does St. Catherine answer my question? Does she say whether or not God is Justice and Wisdom as well as Love? Or does she not have this answer for me?

🤷
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My friend I think you will fins the answers you seek. However I must warn not to get in a hurry trying to read this. Take your time - from the beginning and let God give you understanding.

Also, I will make a recommendation to you of another book, more an overview, that may guide you on your journey AND point you to other writings. (this is the book where I became aquainted with St Catherine)

"The Fulfillment of All Desire"

Peace
James
 
JRKH said:
My friend I think you will fins the answers you seek. However I must warn not to get in a hurry trying to read this. Take your time - from the beginning and let God give you understanding.

Also, I will make a recommendation to you of another book, more an overview, that may guide you on your journey AND point you to other writings. (this is the book where I became aquainted with St Catherine)

"The Fulfillment of All Desire"

Peace
James
Click to expand...
The answer I seek, my new friend–at least the answer I’m seeking at the moment–is whether God is Justice and Wisdom, as well as Love. Do you only think that St. Catherine has this answer, or do you know for certain she has this answer?

🙂
 
But, even if Saint Catherine did not answer this question, we do not have to wait until we get to heaven to ask her. With God’s help, and perhaps with the help of the Sacred Scriptures and the Catechism of the Catholic Church, and with the help of the wisdom God gives us, we just might find the answer.

🙂

Please let me ask you this: Do you and I and St. Catherine say that God is love because God is perfectly loving and the source of the power to love within us? or do we say He is love for some other reason?
 
spockrates said:
But, even if Saint Catherine did not answer this question, we do not have to wait until we get to heaven to ask her. With God’s help, and perhaps with the help of the Sacred Scriptures and the Catechism of the Catholic Church, and with the help of the wisdom God gives us, we just might find the answer.

🙂

Please let me ask you this: Do you and I and St. Catherine say that God is love because God is perfectly loving and the source of the power to love within us? or do we say He is love for some other reason?
Click to expand...
God is the source all and should be the Goal of all that we do.
From Him and through Him do I receive all that I am and all good that I am capable of doing, for True Love is of Him.

Peace
James
 
I haven’t really read through this thread but I have a hard time believing that anyone can even argue this point. I find that no one has a problem with the fire and brimstone in the Bible, but a passage about love being the greatest attribute is disputed??? I just can’t explain this.
 
prettylarge said:
I haven’t really read through this thread but I have a hard time believing that anyone can even argue this point. I find that no one has a problem with the fire and brimstone in the Bible, but a passage about love being the greatest attribute is disputed??? I just can’t explain this.
Click to expand...
This is not so much a dispute as an exploration.

Take a look at posts 56 through 62 for a summary.

Peace
James
 
spockrates said:
Yes, Ryan, I see what you mean. Faith and Hope won’t remain in heaven. At least, that seems true in the case of Hope, for Paul also asks:

Who hopes for what he already has?

(Romans 8:24)

Since you or I will already have the object of our Hope in eternity, I suppose Hope does not spring eternal!

🙂

But what about Faith? Won’t you or I continue to have faith in the eternal life to come?

🤷
Click to expand...
Faith is for things we don’t see. Faith will give way to sight.
 
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