Is Love really the greatest? (1 Corinthians 13:13)

[spockrates]

First I would protest that Love is a He, not a She.

Yes, and if Wisdom is synonymous with Truth, then I suppose Wisdom is a He, as well. For the Wise Jesus said of Himself:

“I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”

(John 14:16)

Interesting that God is referred to as both Love and Truth (or Wisdom).

… Love without wisdom is easily lost. With wisdom, love is inherent. The issue of HOW to love is entirely one of wisdom.

… With understanding, love is not an option, but merely the puzzle. How to accomplish the love is the wisdom. Wisdom is how to use understanding. …

Yes, I agree that Wisdom does certainly appear to be a necessary guide for love–she not only tells us how to receive God’s Love, but also how to live a life of love that the One who is Love loves!



And, since Faith is not the same as Wisdom, I suppose Wisdom is that virtue that helps us *understand *what the truth is, and Faith and Hope are the virtues that helps us *trust *in the truth Wisdom teaches us, and Love is the virtue that helps us *obey *the truth Faith helps us trust.

Do you think we’re on to something, here? Or am I misunderstanding both you and the One who is the Truth?

http://www.fancast.com/blogs/files/2009/06/battlestar-galactica-300x1921.jpg

Left to right: Love, Hope, Faith and Wisdom

 

[spockrates]

I haven’t really read through this thread but I have a hard time believing that anyone can even argue this point. I find that no one has a problem with the fire and brimstone in the Bible, but a passage about love being the greatest attribute is disputed??? I just can’t explain this.

Perhaps, Pretty, you now might see the possibility? Do you think it possible that when St. Paul wrote this

And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest*** of these*** is love.

(1 Corinthians 13:13)

he meant that Love is only the greatest of these three? Is it possible that another virtue is more desirable, for nothing–not even Love–compares to her?

 

[peary1]

And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

(1 Corinthians 13:13)

Hi! I’ve been wondering something: Saint Paul tells you and I that love is the greatest, but is he right? You see, I’m not so sure he is. I’m hoping someone can explain why love is greater and what it is greater than. Any thoughts?

Alot is lost in translation. The original translations had Faith, Hope, and Charity - agape. Paul wasn’t referring to an eros love. The way Paul uses Agape, it represents Divine, unconditional, self-sacrificing, active, volitional, and thoughtful love. In other words, charity.
To live in Faith means that one has hope and practices charity. They flow one from another. Paul believed that charitable love was the most perfect of love, and that is what he means when he says that it is the greatest.

 

[JRKH]

True, that, James! How can we, the finite, who are limited by time, space, and the smallness of our intellect and ineptitude comprehend the God who is unlimited by time and space, and unlimited in His intellect and power? We cannot comprehend, unless, of course, if God chooses to reveal the truth to us. Tell me, James, is revealing the truth how God rolls? Or do you think He chooses to keep Himself hidden from our understanding?

Both.
God reveals Himself to us to the extent that we properly dispose ourselves to receive Him and to the extent that we are able to comprehend.
Two things here are important to remember. The first is proper disposition. We cannot simply wish for God to reveal Himself. We must become small in our “self”, that is, we must become “selfless”. Only then, after we are emptied of our self, can God enter into us in His fullness of Truth.
The second thing to remember is that comprehension of God is not necessarily the same thing as understanding Him. Many of the Mystics talk of the intense feeling and recognition of God’s presence, of His Love and His care, but are unable to describe the encounter in any rational way. Such encounters surpass understanding.
As an adjunct to this God will seemingly withdraw and leave us in a “Dark night”. This too is done out of Love, for it allows us to more fully understand our complete need for Him and allows us to draw closer to Him.

Peace
James

 

[ryanoneil]

True. So, Ryan, when Saint Paul wrote this,

And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

(1 Corinthians 13:13)

do you think He was speaking of God’s love for us being the greatest, rather than our love for Him? Or do you think that He was speaking of our love, but that our Faith being the cause of our Love does not make it greater, but only makes it prior? I mean, consider Mary. In some way she was the cause of Christ–her giving birth to Him and all. Yet, He was still greater than she was in being, for He was God in the flesh, and she was not.

There is a distinction, but God’s love and our love cannot be entirely seperated. It is to cut and dry to say that faith is the cause of our love. We love because he first loved us (1 John 4:19) and his love is brought to perfection in us. (1 John 4:12)

The letter as a whole is talking about knowledge and behavior and spiritual gifts, and relative to all this is love that gives them their purpose and effectiveness. None of the gifts has value unless they are informed by love. Love is the greatest because it operates in the others. And love remains when the others give way to eternity.

 

[ryanoneil]

Then Wisdom, it seems, is certainly in the running for being the greatest of virtues, don’t you think? How would you compare her to Love? If they were women vying for your affection, who would you desire more?

No I don’t think it is in the running.

And if I have the gift of prophecy and comprehend all mysteries and all knowledge; if I have all faith so as to move mountains but do not have love, I am nothing. (1 Cor 13:2)

 

[ryanoneil]

Ryan:

I suppose I like the more modern terms of

• intellectual virtues
• moral virtues, and
• theological virtues

as listed in the Catholic Encyclopedia:

newadvent.org/cathen/15472a.htm

And when I use the word *Wisdom *I’m possibly describing all of the virtues classified as intellectual. Justice, it seems, is just one of the moral virtues–though perhaps the predominant one. Love, together with Faith and Hope are, of course, the theological virtues.

Would you, Ryan, then say that the theological virtues are superior to the intellectual and moral virtues, and that Love is the greatest of all virtues? Do you think this is what St. Paul meant when he wrote these words?

And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

(1 Corinthians 13:13)

Or do you think that he was only saying that Love is merely greatest of the three–that is, Love is greater than Faith and Hope, but not necessarily greater than all? I’m thinking that, perhaps, one of the moral or intellectual virtues might possibly be greater than Love. What about you?

All other virtues mean nothing unless they are rooted in the theological virtues. The theological virtues relate directly to God. Union with God is our ultimate goal.

 

[spockrates]

Alot is lost in translation. The original translations had Faith, Hope, and Charity - agape. Paul wasn’t referring to an eros love. The way Paul uses Agape, it represents Divine, unconditional, self-sacrificing, active, volitional, and thoughtful love. In other words, charity.
To live in Faith means that one has hope and practices charity. They flow one from another. Paul believed that charitable love was the most perfect of love, and that is what he means when he says that it is the greatest.

And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

(1 Corinthians 13:13)

Peary:

Yes, I suppose St. Paul would agree that *agape *is a greater love than eros, to the offense of Greeks who worshipped Eros, I suppose.

However, instead of saying Charity is the greatest Love, he says Love is the “greatest of these.” The these, it seems, is the list of three virtues–Faith, Hope and Love. Hence, he appears to be saying *Agape *is greater than Faith and Hope. Doesn’t he?

 

[spockrates]

Both.
God reveals Himself to us to the extent that we properly dispose ourselves to receive Him and to the extent that we are able to comprehend.
Two things here are important to remember. The first is proper disposition. We cannot simply wish for God to reveal Himself. We must become small in our “self”, that is, we must become “selfless”. Only then, after we are emptied of our self, can God enter into us in His fullness of Truth.
The second thing to remember is that comprehension of God is not necessarily the same thing as understanding Him. Many of the Mystics talk of the intense feeling and recognition of God’s presence, of His Love and His care, but are unable to describe the encounter in any rational way. Such encounters surpass understanding.
As an adjunct to this God will seemingly withdraw and leave us in a “Dark night”. This too is done out of Love, for it allows us to more fully understand our complete need for Him and allows us to draw closer to Him.

Peace
James

Yes, James, I suppose there is a mystical, intuitive comprehending of God’s will. But is there not also a logical, reasoned way of comprehending God’s will? Isn’t this what God means when He says through Isaiah the following words?

“Come now, let us reason together,”
says the LORD."

(Isaiah 1:18)

And by which virtue does God reason with us, if not by Wisdom?

 

[JRKH]

Yes, James, I suppose there is a mystical, intuitive comprehending of God’s will. But is there not also a logical, reasoned way of comprehending God’s will? Isn’t this what God means when He says through Isaiah the following words?

“Come now, let us reason together,”
says the LORD."

(Isaiah 1:18)

And by which virtue does God reason with us, if not by Wisdom?

Well said. But consider also that, how we prevent “reasoning together” from becoming “competative debate” is by Love for our fellow.

This is what is meant by saying that all the virtues are integrated.

This is also what is meant by Paul when He says that Love is the greatest.

Peace
James

 

[spockrates]

No I don’t think it is in the running.

And if I have the gift of prophecy and comprehend all mysteries and all knowledge; if I have all faith so as to move mountains but do not have love, I am nothing. (1 Cor 13:2)

What I hear you saying confidently, Ryan, is that nothing compares to Love. And I’d like to believe you, but there is something holding me back. That something are these words of wisdom about Wisdom from Sacred Scripture:

1 Does not wisdom call out?
Does not understanding raise her voice?

2 On the heights along the way,
where the paths meet, she takes her stand;

3 beside the gates leading into the city,
at the entrances, she cries aloud:

4 "To you, O men, I call out;
I raise my voice to all mankind.

5 You who are simple, gain prudence;
you who are foolish, gain understanding.

6 Listen, for I have worthy things to say;
I open my lips to speak what is right.

7 My mouth speaks what is true,
for my lips detest wickedness.

8 All the words of my mouth are just;
none of them is crooked or perverse.

9 To the discerning all of them are right;
they are faultless to those who have knowledge.

10 Choose my instruction instead of silver,
knowledge rather than choice gold,

11 for wisdom is more precious than rubies,
and **nothing you desire can compare with her. **

(Proverbs 8:1-11)

It’s that eleventh verse, you see. The writer of Proverbs tells you and me that** “nothing you desire compares with [Wisdom].”** Does this not mean that the Love God gives does not compare with Wisdom God gives you and I?

 

[spockrates]

All other virtues mean nothing unless they are rooted in the theological virtues. The theological virtues relate directly to God. Union with God is our ultimate goal.

And yet, the writer of Proverbs claims that the theological virtues do not compare with the intellectual virtue Wisdom. Do you disagree with him, Ryan?

 

[spockrates]

Well said. But consider also that, how we prevent “reasoning together” from becoming “competative debate” is by Love for our fellow.

This is what is meant by saying that all the virtues are integrated.

This is also what is meant by Paul when He says that Love is the greatest.

Peace
James

Yes, I suppose that is true. However, even the most self-centered of men might, out of love for himself, embrace reason and philosophy rather than debate and partisanship. As Socrates said:

Now, the partisan, when he is engaged in a dispute, cares nothing about the rights of the question, but is anxious only to convince his hearers of his own assertions. And the difference between him and me at the present moment is merely this—that whereas he seeks to convince his hearers that what he says is true, I am rather seeking to convince myself; to convince my hearers is a secondary matter with me.

(Phaedo)

My opinion (please correct me if I’m mistaken) is that to live the life of a philosopher is more pleasing to God than living the life of a partisan. Those who are into partisan religion are like those who are into partisan politics–they are unwilling to ever consider that their opinions might be wrong. Such are more likely to fall victim to deception, and once having contracted that disease of the mind and soul, infect others.

The philosopher, on the other hand, loves God and truth more than his religion. He never says, “My religion, right or wrong!” but always withholds belief until he knows why what his religion teaches is true. The ability to protect him from deception–both in religious doctrine and in religious practice–is perhaps the reason why the writer of Proverbs says of Wisdom that,

… nothing you desire can compare with her.

(Proverbs 8:11)

Do you think I’m wise in saying this, James?

 

[spockrates]

I suppose, then, we should–in the interest of fairness to Love–apply the five tests that she passed to this new contender for our affections–who is the one we call Wisdom:

The first test

**1. Love is the greatest virtue because all other other virtues are examples of her. **

Can Wisdom be an example of Love? If so, then how? (If she is merely one kind of Love, then, it seems, she is certainly lesser than Love.)

The second test

1. Love is the greatest because all other virtues are caused by her.

Is our Love the cause of our Wisdom? (If our virtue of Love causes Wisdom, then perhaps Wisdom is a child of Love, and not as worthy of our desire as her.)

The third test

1. Love is the only virtue necessary to bring us closer to God and heaven.

Is Wisdom unnecessary to bring us closer to God and heaven? (If so, then Love is likely more beneficial to us than she is.)

The fourth test

1. Love is greatest because she is the only virtue who will be with us forever after death.

Will Wisdom, like Hope, perish in eternity? (If she is not, like Love, an eternal beauty forever at our sides, then she is likely not greater, as she does not survive.)

The fifth test

1. Love is greatest because she is most like God.

Is Wisdom not an attribute of God, or if she is a divine attribute, is she lesser than His attribute of Love? (If she is not one of God’s attributes, or merely a lesser attribute of God, then she must not be greater than Love.)

And I gather that we should now include a sixth test:

The sixth test

1. Love is greatest because nothing we desire compares to her.

Does Wisdom compare to Love? (If she does not, then Love is more worthy of our desire and embrace than she is.)

---

How do any of you think Wisdom compares to Love in any of the tests we have proposed? Can any of you think of a different test that definitively shows Wisdom does not compare to Love?

 

[spockrates]

Concerning the origin of Christmas, I suppose it was by *Wisdom *that God the Father devised and carried out His plan of having His One and Only Son dwell in the helpless body of a newborn infant. The motivation behind the plan, perhaps, was His *Love *for those who did not yet love Him. Both were essential for Him, and for those made in His image, it seems to me.

But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.”

(Matthew 1:20-21)

 

[Monte1945]

Well, Jim, I suppose it is God’s love that saves me, but my faith that makes it possible to receive that love that saves me. Perhaps whether Love or Faith is greatest depends on what the word greatest means.

And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

(1 Corinthians 13:13)

Let’s say Paul meant this:

greatest = the one that is most likely to result in receiving God’s love and eternal life

Would you say it is your love for God, or your faith in God’s love, that contributes most to your getting to heaven?

You might get a better grip on this subject if you think of “faith” as “trust”.
which is a interpertation of the greek word Faith I received in one of my seminary classes.

we trust God to save us… when we give him our trust he comes to us in spirit
and that Spirit adds to our nature… his divine love… and when we have his agape love
as our new nature, through the Grace of God, through prayer and the Sacraments
we can begin to become love… It is a long drawn out affair which will last our entire
lives… we the branch are joined to the vine, which is where we receive the flow of
Grace… or God’s love.

when we become infused with God’s love through His Grace flow… our works of
love show that we are connected to God who is love… But the beginning of this
wonderful live long process is when we give our lives over to God though our
faith (trust) in Him…

I hope that might help you some…

 

[Monte1945]

The answer I seek, my new friend–at least the answer I’m seeking at the moment–is whether God is Justice and Wisdom, as well as Love. Do you only think that St. Catherine has this answer, or do you know for certain she has this answer?

Why is it that when I read your questions I tend to be remined to questions I heard in my first year of philosophy 101?

What you are asking is one of the basic questions which world Philosophers ask
in seeking the three main quests or questions of man…

What is Justice, Truth and that which is Right within the essence of humanity…

Can Good come from within man’s humanity without the Grace of God?

You have a high pile of books to read my friend…

Religion is not a philosophy … it is a Person… Jesus… And when you
connect to Jesus and become a branch in the vine… Truth will be
given to you…gradually as He feels you have a need for it.

Good luck in your quest…

 

[JRKH]

Yes, I suppose that is true. However, even the most self-centered of men might, out of love for himself, embrace reason and philosophy rather than debate and partisanship. As Socrates said:

Now, the partisan, when he is engaged in a dispute, cares nothing about the rights of the question, but is anxious only to convince his hearers of his own assertions. And the difference between him and me at the present moment is merely this—that whereas he seeks to convince his hearers that what he says is true, I am rather seeking to convince myself; to convince my hearers is a secondary matter with me.

(Phaedo)

The above is a fine sentiment and quite true. But consider how this fits nicely into the “Law of Love”… Jesus tells us that we are to Love our neighbor How?? – As we love ourselves. So, your “self centered” philosopher is really acting in a Loving manner when he adopts the postion of reasoned debate.
Further, look at how Paul describes Love in 1Cor 13
4 Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, 5 does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, 6 does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; 7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
Does this description not fit in perfectly with the ideas you present for a person who is non-partisan? Therefore we can see that your reasonable philosopher is indeed acting out of Brotherly Love.

My opinion (please correct me if I’m mistaken) is that to live the life of a philosopher is more pleasing to God than living the life of a partisan. Those who are into partisan religion are like those who are into partisan politics–they are unwilling to ever consider that their opinions might be wrong. Such are more likely to fall victim to deception, and once having contracted that disease of the mind and soul, infect others.

The philosopher, on the other hand, loves God and truth more than his religion. He never says, “My religion, right or wrong!” but always withholds belief until he knows why what his religion teaches is true. The ability to protect him from deception–both in religious doctrine and in religious practice–is perhaps the reason why the writer of Proverbs says of Wisdom that,

… nothing you desire can compare with her.

(Proverbs 8:11)

Do you think I’m wise in saying this, James?

I think that there are dangers in both positions. I have seen people who will defend and espouse their religious views to the point where they are not litening to what anyone else is saying and I have also seen people who are so skeptical that they can never be convinced (that is “know”) that any religious viewpoint is correct. The one becomes a religious partisan, the other becomes an atheistic or agnostic partisan.

Frankly this is why I find the path of mysticism to be most interesting. It takes the high road of seeking Pure Love and seeks Unity with God. It is less concerned with dogma or practice than it is with Truth and Purity. Also it relies less on “rational argument” and “knowledge”, and relies more on seeking stillness in God and Understanding.
I don’t think that God is any more or less pleased with the philosopher over the “partisan” apologist. The Church has its share of rational philosopher types, rational scientific types and also mystic types. The common thread in each is to seek after the Truth, in Truth and In Love.

Peace
James

 

[pneuma07]

And yet, the writer of Proverbs claims that the theological virtues do not compare with the intellectual virtue Wisdom.

“nothing you desire compares with [Wisdom].” Does this not mean that the Love God gives does not compare with Wisdom God gives you and I?

Hi Spock !

Beautiful thread. Here are a couple of cents from a lurker.

Here is Wisdom speaking.

Prov 8
"The LORD begot me, the first-born of his ways, the forerunner of his prodigies of long ago;
23
6 From of old I was poured forth, at the first, before the earth.
24 When there were no depths I was brought forth, when there were no fountains or springs of water;
25 Before the mountains were settled into place, before the hills, I was brought forth;
26 While as yet the earth and the fields were not made, nor the first clods of the world.
27 "When he established the heavens I was there, when he marked out the vault over the face of the deep;
28 When he made firm the skies above, when he fixed fast the foundations of the earth;
29 When he set for the sea its limit, so that the waters should not transgress his command;
30 Then was I beside him as his craftsman, and I was his delight day by day, Playing before him all the while,
31 playing on the surface of his earth; and I found delight in the sons of men

That is really magnificent and stunning. And we can see Wisdom putting itself ( herself/himself ?)
as a reality which is so to say between God and the created world, as a firstborn, even a co-worker in the project of creation. I guess a more precise reading depends on how the verbs in verses 22-23,
here presented as “begot” and “poured fourth” are translated.

Paul even defines Christ “Wisdom of God” in 1 Cor 1:24.

18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
19 For it is written:
I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.

20Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?
21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.
22 Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom,
23 but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling-block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24 but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than man’s wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man’s strength.

Here we have to take note of the sharp distinction between mere human wisdom, and divine wisdom.

Another great insight into Wisdom is in ……Wisdom 7.

So Wisdom should come before any created reality.

But you’re asking what we should desire more between Wisdom and Love.

1 John 4
7 Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God.
8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

Now God IS love. While we can wonder how we can love what we do not know,
this perspective seems upset by 1 John. If you love you know God. If I don’t love I don’t know Him.

How can I say I have faith in God , if I do not know Him ? (I’d agree BTW that faith shall be no more in Heaven
Heb 11:1
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen )

And now about wisdom.

Nothing in creation is comparable.
But for sure we do not have to desire wisdom more than God. And God is Love. ( we wouldn’t say God is Faith or Hope I guess, BTW, which perhaps helps us in understanding why Love is the greatest of these)

Or it can maybe be put better like this:
where is my wisdom, if I do not know God ?

Isn’t then loving the supreme wisdom ?

PS You and your wife are in my prayers Spock. May the day come that she is reconciled with the Church.

Merry Christmas !

 

[spockrates]

You might get a better grip on this subject if you think of “faith” as “trust”.
which is a interpertation of the greek word Faith I received in one of my seminary classes.

Yes, Monte, I trust you are correct. And I’m glad someone who has taken seminary classes is taking the time to answer my questions. Are you studying to become a priest?



Would you say, then, that Hope is a weaker virtue than Faith? I mean, John writes:

This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us. And if we know that he hears us—whatever we ask—we know that we have what we asked of him.

(1 John 5:14-15)

And it seems to me that I can have *faith *that God answers any prayer that is “according to His will,” but that I can only *hope *that what I ask is indeed His will. Faith, being more certain, is the stronger of the twin sister virtues; don’t you think?



Faith and Hope