Is Love really the greatest? (1 Corinthians 13:13)

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nuntym said:
… Well, this police officer is obviously the carrier of one of the opportunities God has given to this poor woman. It is this officer’s duty at this very moment to make the woman reconsider what she is about to do, or even stop her against her own will, so that God’s will of giving her another opportunity would be fulfilled. …
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In the interest of trying to listen to you and understand from where you are coming, I’ll stick to this one question before moving on to another. It’s clear the police officer has a choice: She can (1) practice self love by letting the woman jump to her death rather than risking her own life, or she can (2) practice selfless love by risking her life and trying to save the woman from jumping to her death. Please tell me: Which choice is the better of the two, and why?

🤷
 
Nun:

I’m interested in continuing the conversation if you are. Understanding the nature of Love is a worthy endeavor, I believe.

🙂
 
Nun:

I know I have the same annoying habit that Socrates himself had, and which he described this way:

The world, in general, have not figured me out; and therefore they only say of me that I am the strangest of mortals and drive men to their wit’s end!

(Theaetetus, 149)

So if I’ve driven you to the end of your wits, please understand that you are in the company of many brilliant thinkers! There is no need to feel embarrassed or ignorant at being faced with a question you cannot yet answer. It happens to the best of people sometimes, and to me most of the time!

🙂
 
That being said, I’ve been wondering about the questions your assertions have raised, and praying for Wisdom to come to my aid. And I think God might have sent her to me, as He so rarely does. Rather than keep what she has shown me to myself and offend my generous benefactors, I feel I should tell you what Her still small voice whispered to my mind’s ear. If you care to do so, please tell me if what I believe I heard her say is the truth, or just queer. This is what I heard:

It seems to me that any virtue, whether it be Love, or Wisdom, or Faith, or Hope, is only as good as the object in which it is placed. Consider, for example, the virtue of Faith: If I put faith in a false god, rather than the true God, then I’m trusting a god that cannot help me. Such faith is not good, for it is in an object that is not helpful. We might then use this representation:

If

F = faith in the true God

and

f = faith in a false god

and

g = a good virtue

and

b = a bad vice

then

F = g

and

f = b

Therefore,

F is preferable to f.
 
The same might be said when comparing faith in myself to faith in God:

If

F = faith in the true God

and

m = faith in myself

and

g = a good virtue

and

b = a bad vice

then

F = g

and

m = b

Therefore,

F is preferable to m.

The upshot is that placing faith in the wrong object (e.g., a false god or myself) is not as good as placing faith in God. For Sacred Scripture tells you and me:

And without faith it is impossible to please God… .

(Hebrews 11:6)
 
Now we can make the same comparison of a love of sin and a love of God:

If

L = Love for God

and

s = Love of sin

and

g = a good virtue

and

b = a bad vice

then

L = g

and

s = b

Therefore,

L is preferable to s.

Again, the object of the Love is what determines the virtuous value of that love.
 
Finally, let’s consider love of self compared to love of God and others:

If

L = Loving God and others more than one loves oneself

and

S = Loving oneself more than one loves God and others

and

g = a good virtue

and

b = a bad vice

then

L = g

and

S = b

Therefore,

L is preferable to S.

It seems to me that, when given the choice of (S) and (L), God would have us choose (L) every time. This appears true because there are times that

S http://www.bioinfo.de/isb/2003/03/0029/not-equal.jpg L

So that is what I though Wisdom whispered to me in Her still, small voice:

This truth cannot be erased: Like Faith, Love is only as good as the object in which She is placed.

Would you say she spoke a truth sincere, or a lie that’s queer?



When Wisdom speaks, do I listen?
 
Spockrates, your posts here seem to indicate that you may not actually understand what Love is as indicated “Faith, Hope and Love, these three abide, but the greatest of thes is Love.”, I’m not sure the you completely comprehend Faith and Hope as used here either.

Love is, indeed the greatest. The Word Of God says so. Are you greater than the word of God? Personally if I find disagreement with God’s revelation, I tend to believe the error is with me, not with God.
 
Ignatius said:
Spockrates, your posts here seem to indicate that you may not actually understand what Love is as indicated “Faith, Hope and Love, these three abide, but the greatest of thes is Love.”, I’m not sure the you completely comprehend Faith and Hope as used here either.

Love is, indeed the greatest. The Word Of God says so. Are you greater than the word of God? Personally if I find disagreement with God’s revelation, I tend to believe the error is with me, not with God.
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Thank you for responding Ignatius! You might be right that Love is the greatest of the virtues. But pleases tell me where in the Word of God it says.

🙂
 
spockrates said:
Notice, P7 and Ryan, what is transpiring:


  1. *]I have been wrongfully accused of being someone I am not
    *]Love moves me to love my accuser, as Christ loved those who accused Him
    *]I decide to do as He did and not retaliate, but love instead

    You were right, Ryan, in saying that I should choose to love. For St. John says that God is Love, and St. Paul says that I should imitate God. But the question remains: *How *should I love? Should I ignore the accusation and do nothing, as Jesus was silent before His accusers? Should I gently and respectfully rebuke my accuser, as St. Peter advises me? Should I defend myself and explain why my accuser is mistaken, as St. Paul himself did?

    And you were right, P7, in saying that Love needs Wisdom. For I know that I should love, as that is what the virtue of Love would have me do. But Love is unable to tell me how to love wisely. I could flip a coin or roll dice and choose one of the three acts of Love without thinking, but my thoughtless act of love might be turn out to be unwise.

    Here, then, is where Love seeks the help of her sister virtue Wisdom, because, for Love to be wise, she must rely on Wisdom to guide her. Wisdom, at the moment, gives me this advice:

    Do not answer a fool according to his folly,
    or you will be like him yourself.

    Answer a fool according to his folly,
    or he will be wise in his own eyes.

    (Proverbs 26:4-5)

    First, I should be careful to not falsely accuse Ben2, or I should become like him in this particular instance. I should say that I’m not accusing Ben2 of being a fool, though I think his accusing me is unwise and that he is deceived. Second, I should respond to his accusation, or he shall think that he is right to accuse me. Now, having this Wisdom to guide me, I hope to wisely love Ben2.
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  1. spock,
    We are commanded by Jesus to love one another.
    See Mt.22:36-40 I do hope you will read this.

    God bless,
    bluelake
 
spockrates said:
Thank you for responding Ignatius! You might be right that Love is the greatest of the virtues. But pleases tell me where in the Word of God it says.
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It’s the thread Title.
1Co 13:13 So faith, hope, love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
 
Ignatius said:
It’s the thread Title.
1Co 13:13 So faith, hope, love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
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Why, yes it is! Sorry, it has been so long since the opening post that I nearly forgot.

:o

Please tell me, Ignatius: Does Saint Paul the Apostle write that love is “the greatest of all” virtues? or does he write that love is “the greatest of these” three virtues?

🤷
 
rebeccanew said:
God is Love, what could be greater?
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Rebecca:

Thanks for asking. What indeed could be greater than Love, since Love is an attribute that describes God. But is that all that God is? What does Jesus, who is God, say?

Jesus answered, “I am … the truth … .”

(John 14:6)

🙂
 
bluelake said:
spock,
We are commanded by Jesus to love one another.
See Mt.22:36-40 I do hope you will read this.

God bless,
bluelake
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“Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” Jesus replied: " ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

(Matthew 22:36-40)

Yes, that is certainly true, Blue! Love is the greatest commandment.

👍

Would you say, as the Beatles sang long ago, that “Love is all you need”? I mean, to obey this commandment, is Love all that is required?



Is Love all we need to love?
 
spockrates said:
Please tell me, Ignatius: Does Saint Paul the Apostle write that love is “the greatest of all” virtues? or does he write that love is “the greatest of these” three virtues?
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It is far more than just the three virtues cited. It’s pretty clear from the context (It might have caught your ear this morning. it’s the 2nd reading from today’s Mass). Love is essential for perfection of all of the other virtues and gifts.

1Co 13:1 If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not love, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
1Co 13:2 And if I should have prophecy and should know all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I should have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not love, I am nothing.
1Co 13:3 And if I should distribute all my goods to feed the poor, and if I should deliver my body to be burned, and have not love, it profiteth me nothing.
1Co 13:4 Love is patient, is kind: love envieth not, dealeth not perversely, is not puffed up,
1Co 13:5 Is not ambitious, seeketh not her own, is not provoked to anger, thinketh no evil:
1Co 13:6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth with the truth:
1Co 13:7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
1Co 13:8 Love never falleth away: whether prophecies shall be made void or tongues shall cease or knowledge shall be destroyed.
1Co 13:9 For we know in part: and we prophesy in part.
1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, that which is in part shall be done away.
 
Ignatius said:
It is far more than just the three virtues cited. It’s pretty clear from the context (It might have caught your ear this morning. it’s the 2nd reading from today’s Mass).
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Don’t you just love it when God does that? We’re discussing Love, and the Holy Spirit reminds you to remind me. Makes me feel, well, loved.

🙂
Ignatius said:
Love is essential for perfection of all of the other virtues and gifts.

1Co 13:1 If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not love, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
1Co 13:2 And if I should have prophecy and should know all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I should have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not love, I am nothing.
1Co 13:3 And if I should distribute all my goods to feed the poor, and if I should deliver my body to be burned, and have not love, it profiteth me nothing.
1Co 13:4 Love is patient, is kind: love envieth not, dealeth not perversely, is not puffed up,
1Co 13:5 Is not ambitious, seeketh not her own, is not provoked to anger, thinketh no evil:
1Co 13:6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth with the truth:
1Co 13:7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
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Yes, I understand that St. Paul is speaking of many virtues. But are not all of these just examples, or aspects, of only one virtue–the virtue you and I affectionately call Love? If these are all characteristics of lovely Love, then He is really speaking of only Love, and, in verse 13, comparing Love to only Faith and Hope. Don’t you agree? If you don’t, then what other virtues besides these three does the Apostle mention in this chapter?

🤷

http://images.dailyradar.com/media/...frak_battlestar_galactica_s_hottest_women.jpg
**
Isn’t St. Paul comparing only Love, Hope and Faith?**
 
Ignatius said:
… 1Co 13:1 If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not love, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
1Co 13:2 And if I should have prophecy and should know all mysteries and all knowledge, … and have not love, I am nothing.
1Co 13:8 … whether prophecies shall be made void or tongues shall cease or knowledge shall be destroyed.
1Co 13:9 For we know in part: and we prophesy in part.
1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, that which is in part shall be done away.
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On second thought, James, perhaps you are on to something. Maybe these words you quoted describe a virtue who is neither Love, nor Faith, nor Hope. What name would you give to this virtue who enables you or I to:
  • prophecy
  • know all mysteries
  • know all knowledge
In short, what is the name of the virtue that God gives us to reveal the truth to us?

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:...vscape.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/six.jpg

What is the mystery virtue’s name?
 
In other words, besides Love, Hope and Faith, what is the virtue you practice when answering my questions?

🤷
 
spockrates said:
Yes, I understand that St. Paul is speaking of many virtues. But are not all of these just examples, or aspects, of only one virtue–the virtue you and I affectionately call Love? If these are all characteristics of lovely Love, then He is really speaking of only Love, and, in verse 13, comparing Love to only Faith and Hope. Don’t you agree? If you don’t, then what other virtues besides these three does the Apostle mention in this chapter?

Isn’t St. Paul comparing only Love, Hope and Faith?
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This is the center piece of Pauls teaching on the spiritual gifts. It applies to chapters 12-14.

Strive eagerly for the greatest spiritual gifts. But I shall show you a still more excellent way. (1 Cor 12:331)

The more excellent way is the love of the next chapter, which is “the” greatest of the greatest.
 
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