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MtnDwellar
Guest
How do we traditonally explain that Satan was cast into hell and also is the prince of the earth at the same time?
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MtnDwellar
Guest
Thanks for clarifying.You asked where Hell is located. I’m asking why it matters. Its irrelevant where Hell, Purgatory or Heaven is.
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Vico
Guest
Catechism of the Catholic ChurchRabbinical Judaism seems to have a view that makes more sense to me: That Lucifer isn’t evil, but is ordered by God to tempt humans. This makes more sense to me, because it would suit the need for the Serpent (AKA ‘Satan’) to be in the Garden with Adam and Eve. Are these beliefs heretical?
391 Behind the disobedient choice of our first parents lurks a seductive voice, opposed to God, which makes them fall into death out of envy.266 Scripture and the Church’s Tradition see in this being a fallen angel, called “Satan” or the “devil”.267 The Church teaches that Satan was at first a good angel, made by God: "The devil and the other demons were indeed created naturally good by God, but they became evil by their own doing."268
266 Cf. Gen 3:1-5; Wis 2:24.
267 Cf Jn 8:44; Rev 12:9.
268 Lateran Council IV (1215): DS 800.
vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s2c1p7.htm#395
New American Bible, Isaiah 14:12How have you fallen from the heavens, O morning star, son of the dawn! How are you cut down to the ground, you who mowed down the nations!
[12] Morning star: the king of Babylon. The Vulgate has “Lucifer,” a name applied by the Church Fathers to Satan.
vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/_PNX.HTM
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mikekle
Guest
Satan is NOT in hell, hasnt even been there yet, he will only go there when Jesus comes again, and sends him there for 1000 yrs…BUT then he will be unleashed again and free to do what he wants again for some period of time.How do we traditonally explain that Satan was cast into hell and also is the prince of the earth at the same time?
Satan and all the demons are right here on earth with us, dont know the verse number, but it does state, satan was cast down to the earth, so when people say there is currently many souls in hell being tortured and tormented by demons, this is not accurate, they arent even there.
Not really on topic, but I find it odd, God created Hell for Satan and the other fallen specifically when satan fell…but then God casts him to earth instead…?? why even create hell at this point, if they werent going to be there for 1000s of years?
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Vico
Guest
The Holy Father John Paul II explained it this way in 1986:The preceding catecheses on the angels have prepared us to understand the truth which Sacred Scripture has revealed and which the Tradition of the Church has handed on about Satan, that is, the fallen angel, the wicked spirit, who is also called the devil or demon.Satan is NOT in hell, hasnt even been there yet, he will only go there when Jesus comes again, and sends him there for 1000 yrs…BUT then he will be unleashed again and free to do what he wants again for some period of time.
Satan and all the demons are right here on earth with us, dont know the verse number, but it does state, satan was cast down to the earth, so when people say there is currently many souls in hell being tortured and tormented by demons, this is not accurate, they arent even there.
Not really on topic, but I find it odd, God created Hell for Satan and the other fallen specifically when satan fell…but then God casts him to earth instead…?? why even create hell at this point, if they werent going to be there for 1000s of years?
This “fall” has the character of the rejection of God with the consequent state of “damnation.” It consists in the free choice of those created spirits who have radically and irrevocably rejected God and his kingdom, usurping his sovereign rights and attempting to subvert the economy of salvation and the order of the entire creation. We find a reflection of this attitude in the words addressed by the tempter to our first parents: “You will become like God” or “like gods” (cf. Gen 3:5). Thus the evil spirit tried to transplant into humanity the attitude of rivalry, insubordination and opposition to God, which has, as it were, become the motivation of Satan’s existence.
In the Old Testament, the narrative of the fall of man as related in the Book of Genesis contains a reference to the attitude of antagonism which Satan wishes to communicate to man in order to lead him to sin (Gen 3:5). In the Book of Job too, we read that Satan seeks to generate rebellion in the person who is suffering (cf. Job 1:11; 2:5-7). In the Book of Wisdom (cf. Wis 2:24), Satan is presented as the artisan of death, which has entered human history along with sin.
In the Fourth Lateran Council (1215), the Church taught that the devil (or Satan) and the other demons “were created good by God but have become evil by their own will.” We read in the Letter of Jude: “The angels who did not keep their own dignity, but left their own dwelling, are kept by the Lord in eternal chains in the darkness, for the judgment of the great day” (Jude 6). Similarly, in the Second Letter of Peter, we hear of “angels who have sinned” and whom God “did not spare, but…cast in the gloomy abysses of hell, reserving them for the judgment” (2 Pet 2:4). It is clear that if God “does not forgive” the sin of the angels, this is because they remain in their sin. They are eternally “in the chains” of the choice that they made at the beginning, rejecting God, against the truth of the supreme and definitive Good that is God himself. It is in this sense that St. John wrote that “the devil has been a sinner from the beginning…” (1 Jn 3:8). And he has been a murderer “from the beginning,” and “has not persevered in the truth, because there is no truth in him” (Jn 8:44).
vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/alpha/data/aud19860813en.html
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MtnDwellar
Guest
How do you explain this verse?Satan is NOT in hell, hasnt even been there yet, he will only go there when Jesus comes again, and sends him there for 1000 yrs…BUT then he will be unleashed again and free to do what he wants again for some period of time.
Satan and all the demons are right here on earth with us, dont know the verse number, but it does state, satan was cast down to the earth, so when people say there is currently many souls in hell being tortured and tormented by demons, this is not accurate, they arent even there.
Not really on topic, but I find it odd, God created Hell for Satan and the other fallen specifically when satan fell…but then God casts him to earth instead…?? why even create hell at this point, if they werent going to be there for 1000s of years?
2 Peter 2:4
“For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;”
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thistle
Guest
D-R Bible, Haydock Commentary:How do you explain this verse?
2 Peter 2:4
“For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;”
Ver. 4. If God spared not the Angels, &c. St. Peter here brings these examples of God’s justice. 1. Towards the rebellious angels that fell from heaven; 2. that of the general flood, or deluge; 3. when he destroyed Sodom and those other cities. First, angels that sinned, God by his justice delivered them, drawn down with infernal ropes into hell to be tormented, and to be reserved even for greater torments after the day of judgment. This seems to be the liberal sense of this fourth verse, which is obscure, and has divers reading in the Greek. In the examples of the deluge and of Sodom, St. Peter shews not only the severity of God’s judgments upon the wicked, but also his merciful providence towards the small number of the just, as towards Noe[Noah], a preacher of justice, the eighth and chief of those who were preserved in the ark, when he spared not the world that was of old, (literally, the original world) or wicked of those ancient times. When he delivered that just man, Lot, at the time he reduced Sodom and those other cities to ashes: for Lot was just both in sight and hearing, without being corrupted by what he saw and heard; chaste as to his eyes and ears, or as to all that could be seen or heard of him, when the wicked among whom he lived vexed and grieved his just soul by their impious deeds. God, therefore, who knows and approves the ways of the godly, preserves them by his providence amidst temptations. (Witham)
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MtnDwellar
Guest
Yes, but, how does someone who believes that Satan and his demons are not in hell reconcile their belief with that verse?D-R Bible, Haydock Commentary:
Ver. 4. If God spared not the Angels, &c. St. Peter here brings these examples of God’s justice. 1. Towards the rebellious angels that fell from heaven; 2. that of the general flood, or deluge; 3. when he destroyed Sodom and those other cities. First, angels that sinned, God by his justice delivered them, drawn down with infernal ropes into hell to be tormented, and to be reserved even for greater torments after the day of judgment. This seems to be the liberal sense of this fourth verse, which is obscure, and has divers reading in the Greek. In the examples of the deluge and of Sodom, St. Peter shews not only the severity of God’s judgments upon the wicked, but also his merciful providence towards the small number of the just, as towards Noe[Noah], a preacher of justice, the eighth and chief of those who were preserved in the ark, when he spared not the world that was of old, (literally, the original world) or wicked of those ancient times. When he delivered that just man, Lot, at the time he reduced Sodom and those other cities to ashes: for Lot was just both in sight and hearing, without being corrupted by what he saw and heard; chaste as to his eyes and ears, or as to all that could be seen or heard of him, when the wicked among whom he lived vexed and grieved his just soul by their impious deeds. God, therefore, who knows and approves the ways of the godly, preserves them by his providence amidst temptations. (Witham)
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mikekle
Guest
Well, now Im really confused…How do you explain this verse?
2 Peter 2:4
“For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;”
Satan roams the earth, seeking people to tempt into sin and thus separate from God. First Peter 5:8 states, “Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour.” In John 14:30, Jesus called Satan the “prince of this world,” and the apostle Paul referred to him as the “ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient” (Ephesians 2:2). Satan does not live in hell; he lives and works on the earth and in the heavens circling it.
Satan is the “father of lies,” and he influences and rules the world right now. Satan desires worship (Matthew 4:9)
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MtnDwellar
Guest
My answer was in post 70, but some traditions teach against this.Well, now Im really confused…
Satan roams the earth, seeking people to tempt into sin and thus separate from God. First Peter 5:8 states, “Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour.” In John 14:30, Jesus called Satan the “prince of this world,” and the apostle Paul referred to him as the “ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient” (Ephesians 2:2). Satan does not live in hell; he lives and works on the earth and in the heavens circling it.
Satan is the “father of lies,” and he influences and rules the world right now. Satan desires worship (Matthew 4:9)
Hell is a state of being. Earth is a material state. Satan is in both.
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thistle
Guest
I don’t know. I hadn’t realised we were debating if Satan is in Hell or not. Of course Satan and his demons are in Hell and they also manifest themselves among us on earth to try to get us away from God.Yes, but, how does someone who believes that Satan and his demons are not in hell reconcile their belief with that verse?
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Nanotwerp
Guest
Satan is in hell in the sense that he is seperated from God, but he isn’t in torment in ‘Hell’ yet.
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Vico
Guest
Kept for judgement “in eternal chains [of Tartarus], in gloom, for the judgment.”Satan is in hell in the sense that he is separated from God, but he isn’t in torment in ‘Hell’ yet.
**2 Peter 2:4 (NABRE) 4 a]For if God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but condemned them to the chains of Tartarus(“2 Peter 2:4 NABRE - Lessons from the Past. For if God did - Bible Gateway”)] and handed them over to be kept for judgment;
Jude 1:6 (NABRE) 6 The angels too, who did not keep to their own domain but deserted their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains, in gloom, for the judgment of the great day.a]
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ready
Guest
Hell is a both a place and a state of being, Satan is in torments already because he experiences the state of being in hell, while both roaming on the earth and in the caverns in hell; he will do so in torments until the the day when he will be exclusively confined to the place of hell. God bless you.Satan is in hell in the sense that he is seperated from God, but he isn’t in torment in ‘Hell’ yet.
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ready
Guest
Yes.Of course Satan and his demons are in Hell and they also manifest themselves among us on earth to try to get us away from God.
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Brendan_64
Guest
God created all things and everything that God has created has been created good. God created Lucifer, therefore Lucifer was created good. God also gave us (and the angels) the gift of free will, and as God does not make slaves of us He does not interfere in how we exercise that free will, for good or for evil. That too applied to Lucifer, the brightest of all the angels.I don’t know if I agree with this but I figured I would put it out there since it seems pertinent to the discussion. In the Handbook of Catholic Apologetics by Peter J. Kreeft and Ronald K. Tacelli, on page 140 they write “Even the Devil is good in his being. He is a good thing gone bad-in fact, a very good thing gone very bad.” Could someone more knowledgeable explain what “good in his being” means?
Lucifer chose to turn from God and sank in his depravity so much that God created a place for him and his followers. Lucifer, in his aim to hurt God, wants to drag as many souls with him into Hell.
So yes, Lucifer was created good in his being, and as the once brightest of all the angels he is indeed a very good thing gone very bad. Lucifer represents the ultimate in evil and depravity to which a person can sink through exercising their free will. All the evil deeds in this world are but a glimmer of the depths of depravity to which men can sink, as Lucifer has sunk to the very depths beyond these.
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mikekle
Guest
How is it possible for a being other than God to be in more than 1place at a time? I thought God was the only being able to do this…but if satan can do this, that would mean, every other angel an also do this too.Hell is a both a place and a state of being, Satan is in torments already because he experiences the state of being in hell, while both roaming on the earth and in the caverns in hell; he will do so in torments until the the day when he will be exclusively confined to the place of hell. God bless you.
Something else though,I never knew it was possible once a being is sent to hell, they can come and go from there at will…?? If Satan can do this, that means every other human soul there would also be able to do this…after all, Im sure God would not allow satan any special treatment.
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thistle
Guest
Padre Pio could bilocate, i.e. be in two places at the same time!How is it possible for a being other than God to be in more than 1place at a time? I thought God was the only being able to do this…but if satan can do this, that would mean, every other angel an also do this too.
Something else though,I never knew it was possible once a being is sent to hell, they can come and go from there at will…?? If Satan can do this, that means every other human soul there would also be able to do this…after all, Im sure God would not allow satan any special treatment.
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MtnDwellar
Guest
The question before us seems to be, if hell is a place and earth is a place, and Satan appears in both places, does he exist in both places simultaneously or alternately? Support for the answer???Of course Satan and his demons are in Hell and they also manifest themselves among us on earth to try to get us away from God.
A priest once said that Satan’s punishment is eternal, but not constant. Perhaps he was referring to being in hell as punishment and being on earth as respite?
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ready
Guest
Hell is not only a place, but it is also a state of being; so Satan in always experiencing the torments of hell. Pure spirits like Satan dart from one place to another in a trice (in an instant) – as quickly as he just thinks of transporting to another place. From what I read in Ven. Mary of Agreda’s book The Mystical City of God Satan darts from the caverns of hell located in the center of the earth to the earth, and back and forth. God bless you.The question before us seems to be, if hell is a place and earth is a place, and Satan appears in both places, does he exist in both places simultaneously or alternately? Support for the answer???
A priest once said that Satan’s punishment is eternal, but not constant. Perhaps he was referring to being in hell as punishment and being on earth as respite?
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