Mark 9:47
And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell
It might not be worth pointing this out…How on earth can you call marriage a regrettable necessity?What of it? Jesus also ate with the sinners and tax collectors. Marriage isn’t even a sin, Just a regrettable necessity in our fallen world.
marriage is a regrettable because now that we have original sin, it distracts us from god. It is a necessity becuase without it, some people would not be able to restrain their impulses, and no new children would be born.It might not be worth pointing this out…How on earth can you call marriage a regrettable necessity?
Marriage = children. People grow up, reproduce, and the cycle of life continues. Otherwise, why would God create the heavens and the Earth? There would be no point to it.
Well, whatever Augustine says, Aquinas specifically rejects the idea that prior to the fall procreation occurred in some less carnal way - and, if I’m not mistaken, he even says that we would have enjoyed sex more before the fall than after. So, if what you state is Augustine’s position, it is certainly not the only viable position.The implication that lust (i.e. sexual desire) is sinful is deeply unpopular TODAY- but in fact, that seems to be the traditional understanding. Indeed, St. Augustine says marriage was instituted to cure the sin of lust.
yes.zro x, Would you say that marriage would not be regrettable if original sin did not exist?
Even if we personally overcome the effects of original sin completely (which I doubt is possible in this life) we still live in a fallen world. Because of this, it is our responsibility to improve the world as much as possible. Anything that distracts us from this responsibility, such as marriage, distracts us frommaximising the good in the world.It seems to me that you’re getting the cart in front of the horse here. If marriage is now difficult because of original sin, we should strive to follow God’s grace and overcome the effects of original sin.
perhaps this hard-wiring is a perversion of original sin, rather than God’s doing.It doesn’t make sense to criticize marriage because it can be stained by original sin. Marriage remains a very good thing. God has hard-wired almost everyone to seek it. That hardly seems like something “regrettable”.
Seems like you’ve really assimilated Paul’s apocalyptic vision…yes.
Even if we personally overcome the effects of original sin completely (which I doubt is possible in this life) we still live in a fallen world. Because of this, it is our responsibility to improve the world as much as possible. Anything that distracts us from this responsibility, such as marriage, distracts us frommaximising the good in the world.
perhaps this hard-wiring is a perversion of original sin, rather than God’s doing.
I disagree with this conclusion of yours.…
Even if we personally overcome the effects of original sin completely (which I doubt is possible in this life) we still live in a fallen world. Because of this, it is our responsibility to improve the world as much as possible. Anything that distracts us from this responsibility, such as marriage, distracts us from maximizing the good in the world.
…
My basic idea is that after the fall, some people became unable to restrain their urges. God, being God, was able to take the sin of lust and bring good out of it. Before the fall, marriage had the function you described. Now that the fall had happened, God needed everyone he could to be completely dedicated to him, in order to do damage control on the fallen world. God kept marriage around, but it now had a new purpose. It would become an institution in which those who could not restrain their urges could go and still have an important function in God’s plan. They would be able to carry out the essential functions of procreation, and the the joys of marriage that been available before the fall would continue almost undeminished.I disagree with this conclusion of yours.
It may be true for you, if your vocational call is to some form of single life, but as a blanket statement I cannot see it holding up as “distract(ing) us from maximizing the good in the world.
Such a view flies in the face of the reaching of our Lord Himself, expressed beautifully in Mark 10…
6 But from the beginning of creation, 'God made them male and female.’ 7 ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, 8 and the two shall become one flesh.’ So they are no longer two but one flesh. 9 What therefore God has joined together, let not man put asunder.” (Emphasis mine)
God created us as male and female (that is, sexual beings) from the beginning…so it is clear that from the beginning we were designed to desire one another and to come together as “one flesh” in full commitment, one to the other, and for procreation.
This joining together, that we call marriage, is blessed by God…from the beginning…
Therefore, marriage, as an institution blessed by God and established by Him, cannot be a distraction from maximizing the good in the world, rather marriage is a necessary and integral part of maximizing the good in the world.
Having said that, it is clear that there are various imperfections and perversions that can creep into marriage that CAN cause distractions from the good you speak of…but these are things separate from the ideal of marriage as designed by our Father and described by Christ.
Peace
James
Now, to the unmarried and to the widows I say that it would be better for you to continue to live alone as I do. But if you cannot restrain your desires, go ahead and marry. It is better to marry than to burn with passion
I would like you to be free from worry. An unmarried man concerns himself with the Lord’s work, because he is trying to please the lord. But a married man concerns himself with worldly matters, because he wants to please his wife; and so he is pulled in two directions. An unmarried woman or virgin concerns herself with the lord’s work, because whe wants to be dedicated both in body and spirit; but a married woman concerns herself with worldly matters, because she wants to please her husband.
emphasis mineSo the man who marries does well, but the man who doesn’t marry does ***even better. ***
Thanks for repeating the quotes…You may disagree, but remember what the bible says. for convienience, I’ll repost what I the quotes I mentioned earlier.
Sorry:blush: though I did put them in the original post.Thanks for repeating the quotes…
Remember too that it is well to read things fully within their context (and it is also good and convenient for others to post the location(s) of the quoted texts.)
Paul is quite careful to separate his own opinion from any command of God…
Let’s take a look at each of your quotes with just a bit more context…Your first quote says…
Now, to the unmarried and to the widows I say that it would be better for you to continue to live alone as I do. But if you cannot restrain your desires, go ahead and marry. It is better to marry than to burn with passion (1 Cor 7:8-9)
But note the verse immediately preceding this one…Verse 7…
I wish that all were as I myself am. But each has his own special gift from God, one of one kind and one of another. (RSV) (Bolding mine)
“I wish”, or “I would that”, in the D-R translation. Paul is indicating that what he is saying here are by way of pious recommendations and not commands…And note that what he declares is that, regardless of what he, Paul, would like to see…Each has his own special (or proper) gift from God…
Your next quote appears to come from 1 Cor 7:32-34
I would like you to be free from worry. An unmarried man concerns himself with the Lord’s work, because he is trying to please the lord. But a married man concerns himself with worldly matters, because he wants to please his wife; and so he is pulled in two directions. An unmarried woman or virgin concerns herself with the lord’s work, because whe wants to be dedicated both in body and spirit; but a married woman concerns herself with worldly matters, because she wants to please her husband.
Yet you leave out something of critical import here…Something Paul explicitly says earlier in this chapter…
Now, concerning virgins, I have no commandment of the Lord: but I give counsel, as having obtained mercy of the Lord, to be faithful. (1 Cor 7:25) (D-R)
This verse colors all that follows…Once again these are Paul’s opinion - his counsel - not commands he received from God. They are written in the belief that the return of the Lord was imminent…he wants the faithful to be “free of anxieties” (vs 32) during the coming tribulations…persecutions and such of the time. Again…Context is key here.
Finally - as further demonstration that these things are a reflection of St Paul’s particular view - as opposed to some hierarchy of holiness…or of marriage somehow being a distraction form holiness - in verse 40 he says:
But in my judgment she is happier if she remains as she is. And I think that I have the Spirit of God. (RSV)
In my judgement…
In all of this, it is clear that while Paul has the Spirit of God in him, and wishes only to give sound advice to the Corinthians during a time of uncertainty, persecution and possible “apocalypse”…None of this is intended to demean the sacrament of marriage as being somehow a lesser vocation or a distraction…
At the time of writing the letter, the Church was illegal…The single person would naturally have fewer worries should they be arrested, imprisoned and possibly martyred. This becomes clear in vs 26 where Paul speaks of “impending distress”…
Paul may have thought that he was only speaking his opinion, But he must have been speaking for God in this particular case. Why else would it be in the sacred scriptures?I apologize that the above is kind of disjointed…I haven’t a lot of time this morning to put my thoughts in proper order…But I hope you will take my somewhat jumbled comments into you heart, and then go back and carefully re-read Chapter 7 in full and make note of how carefully Paul is phrasing his words…More as pious advice applicable to the time and place and situation of the Corinthians than as some sort of command or judgement on the relative usefulness of Marriage in God’s Holy Plan.
In closing I would ask that you consider this…
I would say yes. The gift of juggling is a lesser gift than the gift of increased capabilities for compassion.Does God give greater or lesser gifts?
Well- penance is a sacrament. But it does not meand God wants us to sin, and so need to use the sacrament of sin.over the hill, Yes lust is a sin… Lust is the desire of what is not yours to be had, as to covet something…
Lust is that sin that drives home real fast the fact if you break one of the Commandments, you have unfortuately broke them all. a mortal sin that leaves a huge void between you and God that needs to addressed.
Marriage is a sacrament that reflects back to God invented Marriage, its not of human origin but of Gods origin same as life itself.
Lust is one of the seven deadly sins, so it was tecnically an ignorant question to ask, or joke around about the subject. Hell is real, not a joking matter.
Unless you have a higher calling, like priest-hood where marriage distracts from your responsibilities to act effectively as a priest, then human beings have a natural and moral responsibility to get married and reproduce. Reproduction is an essential part of humanities eschatological destiny. To give life is a virtue regardless of the circumstance.yes.
Even if we personally overcome the effects of original sin completely (which I doubt is possible in this life) we still live in a fallen world. Because of this, it is our responsibility to improve the world as much as possible. Anything that distracts us from this responsibility, such as marriage, distracts us frommaximising the good in the world.
perhaps this hard-wiring is a perversion of original sin, rather than God’s doing.
Then how do you reconcile that with God’s command to be fruitful and multiply? If God wills us to be fruitful and multiply, and sex outside of a marital union sinful, then how are we to multiply without having some who are called to marriage, whether or not they are weak. Some, like myself, choose marriage not because we can’t control our urges, but because we feel called to raise a family of believers for God.Maybe it is, but that doesn’t mean he originally intended it that way. I’m pretty sure Jesus says something along those lines in the gospels, in which he seems to be clear that it is best to remain unmarried. There is definately more than one point on in the bible where this is brought up. If this is true, we can imagine that god originally created adam and eve without sexual desire, so that their eyes would be turned to heaven instead of each other.
No problem. I did not mean to embarrass…My apologies.Sorry:blush: though I did put them in the original post.
Fair enough…but if he is speaking for God…Then God wanted it to be clear that these were not “commands” but recommendations…recommendations that fit a particular time, place and circumstance…otherwise, why would the Holy Spirit inspire Paul to write these things as “opinion” instead of commands…Paul may have thought that he was only speaking his opinion, But he must have been speaking for God in this particular case. Why else would it be in the sacred scriptures?
See - I would disagree. Since Paul says that without Love we are nothing…There is no gift from God that that does not stem from Love.I would say yes. The gift of juggling is a lesser gift than the gift of increased capabilities for compassion.
Not familiar with that other thread…And I don’t want you to think that I am trying to “beat you up” here. I think that to a degree you are correct in what you say here, though I would perhaps phrase it differently…After all, we are also called to “control ourselves” in marriage as well. Lust (as defined by the Church), even in marriage, is still a no-no. Properly ordered sex in marriage is fine and expected.All else aside, I should probably note though I still think that God has reserved marriage for those who can’t control themselves while single, my speculation as to God’s reasons behind this have been compromised by a couple of posts in the “Thesis: I should not have a pet” thread.