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LilyM
Guest
He wasted his seed. Near enough to demonstrate yet another thing that is wrong with masturbation, since it also wastes seed. Or do you think God wasn’t unhappy that he did so?
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Whalstib
Guest
How about female masturbation? No spilling of seed there…
God “appeared” (I won’t say I know the mind of God) to be unhappy because he didn’t do what was called which was father children.
This is clearly not masturbation and is a grasping at straws to find Biblical proof where there is none.
Once again Christ seems to have much compassion for those caught in sexual crimes. The adulteress situation is the “he without sin cast the 1st stone” answer. Does this make adultery alright? NO But once again doesn’t Christ use some of his more scathing remarks simply for the “holier than thou” crowd of Pharisee’s and other religious leaders?
In my opinion and in reading the Catechism which has “loopholes” of anxiety, immaturity, habit etc…which states clearer than Onan it may not be a sin at all!
Once again I’m not going to sit here like some of you and condemn by choosing my words. Why did none of you quote the entire Catechism with it’s “loopholes”? Most jumped right to “grave sin” and either didn’t read further or decided that anything more wasn’t what they wanted to say. Ridiculus extremes were brought in but very little compassion.
Ask yourselves: Is that anymore Christlike than masturbation? Gee the “direct manipulation of facts for self gratification while denying truth” not far off the subject is it!
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F
fix
Guest
The CCC draws from this document, among others:
Now, I see no loopholes. Personal culpability for any grave sin may be mitigated by many factors. The CCC needs to be read in context with all Church teaching and not parsed away to get the result we desire.
B
bilop
Guest
Jesus also said, “go and sin no more”.
God has mercy for every kind of sin if we are repentent.
He directed his wrath at the Pharisees b/c they did not recognize their sin. That’s what you are trying to do. Redefine sins as non-sins. We can’t expect mercy if we don’t acknowledge sin.
I have every sympathy for you if you say, “it is hard not to sin”, as long as you struggle not too. I have little sympathy if you want to say “[my favorite sin] is OK”. Everybody does this, and soon we get relativism.
God Bless
B
blessedtoo
Guest
I find it interesting that threads on this topic are almost ALWAYS started by men. While women may struggle with this sin, generally they do not go to such great lengths to defend it, as the men seem to do. Perhaps, in God’s wisdom, he understood that the male would have more difficulty with chastity.
You don’t have to accept the story of Onan as justification for the prohibition against masturbation. We are not Bible Christians, we are Catholics. As such, we understand that Tradition and Scripture, in total, form the teaching of the Church.
What’s your point? You are equivocating on something that is irrelevent. We know murder is illegal - always. Yet, in our very human justice system, we understand that there are mitigating circumstances that may lessen culpability and thereby reduce one’s punishment. It may be considered manslaughter, or a crime of passion, or temporary insanity. But still, it is understood that a murder was committed and that a law has been broken. Just because it appears to you that masurbation is a lesser sin, it is still a sin. What about the sin of missing Mass on Sunday? Do you want to debate that too?
In addition, Jesus was compassionate with ANYONE who repented. In the Gospels, the Pharisee’s remained steadfast in their refusal to accept Him and the Savior. But look at Levi - the tax collector. As a member of the “establishment”, he converted his heart and followed Christ. As with Magdelane, who also repented, they were both shown the compassion that all who repent will receive.
If the Catechism did not have some stipulations about culpability, the masses would accuse them of being too rigid and unyielding. When they do allow for the possibility of reduced culpability, they are accused of arbitrarily creating “loopholes”. As an other poster stated, for those who wish to justify sin, a loophole can be found just about anywhere.The compassion is built into the Catechism. If this does not apply to your current predicament, then you are seeking something other than compassion - approval perhaps?
M
Mirror_Mirror
Guest
Please be sure to take this portion of the Catechism into the proper context, it states that “one must take into account the affective immaturity, force of acquired habit, conditions of anxiety or other psychological or social factors that lessen, if not even reduce to a minimum, moral culpability”
It does not change the fact that right before that the Catechism states that “masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action.”
That does not go away. The culpability of the act is dimished, not the morality of the act of masturbation.
Masturbation is a selfish act, plain and simple. God gave us the gift of our sexuality to share with our spouse, to give to them freely, totally, faithfully and fruitfully. Masturbation is the opposite of that gift.
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Whalstib
Guest
EXACTLY!!
YOU don’t seem to be reading any more than you want to see either.
I’ll state again; masturbation will hinder a spiritual life at minimum. The idea of it being a grave mortal sin is what I question and I further agree it easily can. BUT the Church CCC and many priests I have spoken with do mitigate the seriousness. The first time I did masturbate I was devastated! I go to Mass daily and to miss the Eucharist for such a thing had me quite depressed. I quickly made an appointment for confession before Mass and explained the circumstances. Father said I should hear some of the serious tales of masturbation he hears. Mine was a tension reliever and NOT a mortal sin! I could have recieved the Eucharist even if I didn’t receive absolution! BTW this was an OSB monk/priest of over 40 years! who explained this to me! Very serious and conservative priest on every matter! Doesn’t let a joke or remark slip by that could be confused with teaching. A spiritual warrior if ever! Yes I was surprised as well!
the point is many of us are hung up on this either pro or con and niether extreme is that healthy. I know I’ve been giving more attention to this topic recently but it’s helped me. My current state of “sexual anxiety” has been relieved by discussing it, praying about it and trying to comprehend this.
As i see it the Catholic Church via the Church Father, Bible and Magisterium gives us all the answers but it’s still incumbant upon us to understand and KNOW right from wrong. Sometimes just blindly accepting isn’t acepting at all. I know clearly it’s wrong to lie, cheat steal, kill etc… and have no debate there. I know masturbation is a sin but my current understanding is it’s NOT mortal.
Thanks,
W
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Whalstib
Guest
Try to tickle yourself? Can’t do it can you?
Why can we easily initiate and culminate such an act if it’s so intrinsically evil? Is it a test? Does God really give us such power coupled with such a strong desire?
I have no desire to be gay, steal, lie, kill I am not tested in the least. I struggle with masturbation usually only every few months and it passes. I’ve failed only several times as explained.
I know many people who never stole, lied, swore, killed etc but am sure they masturbated!
Maybe the teaching is how it is because if the Pope said it’s ok I know I’d drop my pants right now! Just being honest! It be like the repeal of prohibition don’t you think!? You’d hear cheers in the streets!
So there needs to be some firm resolve against it. I think the wording of the CCC endorses this view. It would be easy to say “masturbation is a mortal sin” but grave disorder(despite how bad that sounds) isn’t the same. The loopholes could also be closed as well despite the Persona Humana… As I said I don’t recall mitigating circumstances for abortion. ABC also seems more more serious for some reason… as the clear possibility of creating life ( the coolest thing in the universe!) is totally denied!
Thanks,
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F
fix
Guest
Sorry, but this is contrary to the CCC and all Church teaching. The act itself is always wrong. Personal culpability may vary, but the action is a objective sin.
I will not, and cannot, judge your conscience. All any person can say is the action is always wrong. You went to confession and that is great.
If that is true then you were not culpable for sin. Great. That does not mean your action was morally good or morally neutral. It means you were not culpable. The act is still always wrong. For you, for me, and for all.
We need to continually inform our conscience. The part about reduced culpability does not mean we are free to keep acting wrongly. It means we perserve. We fall and get back up. We do not attempt to change the moral law so we may do as we please.
It may not be mortal if you have some psychological issue. That said, the act is always wrong.
Do you see the distinction between an act being always wrong and the person not always being culpable?
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blessedtoo
Guest
Cool!
After careful consideration, study, and counsel with clergy, I have concluded that missing Mass on Sunday is NOT a mortal sin. After all, it certainly isn’t as BAD as adultery, rape, or murder.
While at my studies, I have also come to the understanding that homosexual acts are NOT mortal sins. Oh, I know the CCC states that this is grave matter and that such acts are instrinsically disordered, but, comon’, who gets hurt?
I’ll check back after continued reflection and study and let everyone know what else I’ve concluded is NOT a mortal sin.
F
fix
Guest
This is my point here. An act can be always wrong even if we are not fully culpable for various reasons.
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Whalstib
Guest
Yes…
I hope I’ve been clear I see it as wrong, as opposed to being Christlike. The question is of degrees.
As Catholics we should strive for spiritual growth in all areas!
Monks neither masturbate (theorietically) nor amass personal wealth. Both are opposed to imitating Christ. I can actually see an argument for being wealthy and Christ like but Christ Himself uses the camel through the eye of a needle analogy… which clearly states I shouldn’t be rich!
Heck I’d even gladly trade my occational desires for millions of dollars just to try! But guess what I’m starting to realize I wouldn’t be here discussing the road to Christ over having too much money.
maybe it’s actually Gods way to show us; “Your not perfect and never will be…but I love you and forgive you!”
One of my failings was just before the Easter Triduum Imagine the guilt! But Christ on the Cross still loved me! I would almost recommend the experience if it wasn’t so devastating! To cry before the Blessed Sacrament because I’m not perfect and need God in my life or I will fly off the rails despite my daily devotions and Mass and prayers. I’m still weak and frail and God loves me!
It may take these type of failings which really only hurt me to prevent my pride from hurting others…
I am a worm and no man without Christ and His Mother in my life!
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fix
Guest
God Bless you. With Mary you will always be protected. If you invoke Her you are already fortunate. I will pray for another victory for our Blessed Mother.
E
edwest2
Guest
It’s amazing that people are still bringing this subject up and looking for a way to make it OK. “Isn’t there a loophole in the ‘rules’ or some other excuse I can use?” The answer is no.
While the Church considers the context in which a sin is committed, it’s still a sin. “But can’t I downgrade it to a venial sin?” Are you trying to convince yourself that you can commit a bunch of venial sins and that it’s no big deal? How many venial sins equal one mortal sin, according to you? I mean, come on. Be honest.
Masturbation is viewed as disordered by the Church. You are sinning against your own body which is the temple of the Holy Spirit. God knows, I’ve had a problem with it and so do many men.
Jesus Christ will forgive you if you turn to Him in repentance. It is addictive, and you need to remove all the sources of it from your life. Get rid of the magazines, DVDs and whatever else. Avoid TV shows that promote the “if it feels good, do it” mentality. You, and I, will be held accountable. Speaking for myself, I cannot watch most movies and TV shows or listen to the radio. Too much of what passes for “popular culture” revolves around sex, like Two and a Half Perverts (Men), and dysfunctional living.
The Bible will guide you to live a healthier life, both spiritually and physically. Sexuality is put into its proper context. The current noise coming from the TV, radio, magazines and internet, is that there is no right and wrong.
And the excuse that “it doesn’t harm anyone” does not apply here. It hurts your spiritual relationship with God and it dehumanizes women, turning them into objects.
God bless,
Ed
While the Church considers the context in which a sin is committed, it’s still a sin. “But can’t I downgrade it to a venial sin?” Are you trying to convince yourself that you can commit a bunch of venial sins and that it’s no big deal? How many venial sins equal one mortal sin, according to you? I mean, come on. Be honest.
Masturbation is viewed as disordered by the Church. You are sinning against your own body which is the temple of the Holy Spirit. God knows, I’ve had a problem with it and so do many men.
Jesus Christ will forgive you if you turn to Him in repentance. It is addictive, and you need to remove all the sources of it from your life. Get rid of the magazines, DVDs and whatever else. Avoid TV shows that promote the “if it feels good, do it” mentality. You, and I, will be held accountable. Speaking for myself, I cannot watch most movies and TV shows or listen to the radio. Too much of what passes for “popular culture” revolves around sex, like Two and a Half Perverts (Men), and dysfunctional living.
The Bible will guide you to live a healthier life, both spiritually and physically. Sexuality is put into its proper context. The current noise coming from the TV, radio, magazines and internet, is that there is no right and wrong.
And the excuse that “it doesn’t harm anyone” does not apply here. It hurts your spiritual relationship with God and it dehumanizes women, turning them into objects.
God bless,
Ed
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Whalstib
Guest
C’mon…Cool!
After careful consideration, study, and counsel with clergy, I have concluded that missing Mass on Sunday is NOT a mortal sin. After all, it certainly isn’t as BAD as adultery, rape, or murder.
While at my studies, I have also come to the understanding that homosexual acts are NOT mortal sins. Oh, I know the CCC states that this is grave matter and that such acts are instrinsically disordered, but, comon’, who gets hurt?
I’ll check back after continued reflection and study and let everyone know what else I’ve concluded is NOT a mortal sin.
If your son or daughter came to you and said they masturbated would you really respond the same as if the had an abortion or were gay? If they had raped someone or killed?
My Father doesn’t respond that way either! maybe that’s the key! To look at this as how we would treat our most loved one who confessed a problem with masturbation! I know I would just smile and try to reassure them and compassionatly give advice.
I know if my daughter proclaimed she had an abortion I would be devastated! part of me would die!
Maybe we’re all “masturbating” mentally with this thread. maybe we need to remove ourselves from it and as I said look to someone we love whole heartedly and imagine that they masturbated.
Because guess what…they did!
W
J
Joe_5859
Guest
What you are speaking of is your own hypothetical emotional response to several different scenarios. We cannot use this as a basis by which to determine the morality of these acts. Simply because our (emotional) response would be different does not change the fact that both acts are grave sin. I would react differently if my child came to me and told me they killed someone versus if they told me they stole a car. But in both instances I can confidentally say I would tell my children to get to Confession!
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BRB
Guest
Perhaps we can find a female that can vouch for fact that most women enjoy the act.I find it interesting that threads on this topic are almost ALWAYS started by men. While women may struggle with this sin, generally they do not go to such great lengths to defend it, as the men seem to do. Perhaps, in God’s wisdom, he understood that the male would have more difficulty with chastity.
?
Women do it to pleasure themselves via orgasm. Men can as well, but Christian men are more often just looking to find a release for the tension within testes. Not necessarily to enjoy the orgasm or to prolong the event.
So, from the standpoint of self pleasure … it may prove more of an offense for women.
Provided a man does not fantasize or use porn, or prolong the event and is simply releasing the biologic tension within to get relief, not self pleasure … I would see it as a venial sin. Again, Jesus knows our thoughts/hearts … and if men engage in act no more than perhaps monthly [and only for biologic reasons to prevent nocturnal accidents] ---- it is probably venial.
However, for a lady … I really can’t see any biologic need to ever engage in the act, and its probably always a mortal sin for them.
Finally, what did Jesus teach on the subject ? Thats what really matters … not what we think/believe. The Bible clearly teaches that homosexual & lesbian relationships are mortal sins … how could anyone believe a release to avoid inevitable nocturnal accidents would be of similar sinfulness ?
J
Joe_5859
Guest
Personally, I think the argument that men need a “biological release” is insulting to men (at least, I take offense to it). Before I got married, I managed to live for years without committing this sin and I didn’t suffer any physical problems.
B
BRB
Guest
Well maybe for someone thats hit age 65 or so. Lets be honest now. Many men over the ages have dealt unsuccessfully trying to avoid this issue.
Origen struggled with this for years … and finally committed the ultimate act of defiance … and castrated himself to the horror of the Catholic elders.
Yes, Christ taught us to cut off our hand if it leads us to sin. But, for most of us … we would have to cut off the other also. So I guess it was better that Origen didn’t go that route.
Clearly Christ was able to handle the sexual urge … so if we have enough spiritual grace on 24-7 basis, we too could probably avoid. Yet, Origin couldn’t … and he was a giant among spiritual men.
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