Is modesty overrated?

[mrsdizzyd]

You need to ask yourself why you are so concerned with “likes” in the first place.

Yes, indeed.

You don’t have to walk around half-dressed in order to be liked. The fact that @rozellelily thinks she does exposes an area for her to work on. It takes self-esteem and confidence to resist a culture that, in almost every instance, sexually objectifies women.

You don’t want to be merely an object of lust for your husband. This is shallow. This is not a good foundation to build a marriage on. Court, date, and grow to love your partner for who they are not what they look like. Looks fade and bodies change.

 

[UpUpAndAway]

But how can a person still care about modesty in an environment like this especially when the current culture (not just young men but old too) seems to affirm immodesty as being good through social media “likes” and nice compliments?

Again, to judge the value of a virtue by unfavorably comparing it to a vice is the wrong way of looking at things. It is the vice that needs to be addressed, not the virtue.

The majority of actresses are known for sexiness and beauty -it seems that this is what gives a woman “affirmation” in this life and who doesn’t want that?

The majority of women are not actresses. Affirmation is correctly attained through virtue and not through vice. I do not personally get affirmation via the “approval” of random men on the Internet (or in real life, for that matter) who do not know anything about me other than how I look.

 

[Rozellelily]

It is the vice that needs to be addressed, not the virtue

But can it even be addressed?
If society is conditioned to think this is normal then what difference does it make if some women dress modestly.
I mean will it really affect men in any way if their minds are already set on thinking that sexy women are desirable,“smoking hot” etc…

I:does “counter cultural” even affect men or does it only have any relevance to men who are already Christian (whose numbers seem to be decreasing) or Muslim?

I hope that makes sense

 

[fide]

Be careful what you attract: you’ll get what you are attracting. Being “sexy” is asking for trouble. Being feminine is attracting a man.

 

[Ardent_Fire]

What is right or wrong is not determined by popular vote.

To me, the instagram culture of showing off in order to get likes and that validation is a sign of insecurity. A modest person does not need to do this in order to feel worthwhile and validated. Eventually, we all will age and will not be as “attractive” on the exterior. It will be interesting to see how the social media generation will be able to cope with that. All the photo filters, airbrushing and attractive angles may show one thing to the world at large, but you are still you when you look in the mirror every morning. People will eventually need to come to terms with that. A modest person already has.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

If society is conditioned to think this is normal then what difference does it make if some women dress modestly.
I mean will it really affect men in any way if their minds are already set on thinking that sexy women are desirable,“smoking hot” etc…

You have an extremely narrow view of society if you think all of “society” consists of men who go around looking at sexy women on the Internet and in movies. Many men are not interested in women who in their opinion dress like prostitutes. Even the ones who might take a second look usually don’t want to marry that kind of woman.

Your posts on this are frankly making me wonder if you have met many, or any, actual mature men (I’d say past college age) in real life. And I’m not talking about Holy Joe Churchgoer men. I’m talking about any sort of men who aren’t at a girlie bar or a frat party.

 

[mrsdizzyd]

UpUpAndAway:

It is the vice that needs to be addressed, not the virtue

But can it even be addressed?
If society is conditioned to think this is normal then what difference does it make if some women dress modestly.
I mean will it really affect men in any way if their minds are already set on thinking that sexy women are desirable,“smoking hot” etc…

I:does “counter cultural” even affect men or does it only have any relevance to men who are already Christian (whose numbers seem to be decreasing) or Muslim?

I hope that makes sense

We are called to holiness. You cannot forget that.

Ancient Rome was an absolute mess when Christians came on the scene. Every possible vice was acceptable. Totally lacking in morality. Christians transformed Rome be living their faith. Was it hard? Harder than we can image. They were martyred in grotesque ways, but by their example nations were converted.

 

[po18guy]

Social media? I reject that. I am a member of several anti-Social Media sites, but no one knows this.

Seriously, this is why courting was the classic method of finding a mate. Dating, either one or several, is a relatively 20th century thing. Socially intense, less effective in discerning the qualities of a spouse.

Arranged marriages, as contrived, compelled and artificial as that sounds, actually works rather well, for a variety of reasons. Professionally, I dealt with failed relationships for 31 years.

As my faith grew, I advised the women that the only man they needed in their life at that point was Jesus Christ. Once that primary relationship was established, a mate could be sought out.

As you see, discernment, as with vocations, is needed. This can be a time of frustration, but that also describes many lives both within and without relationships.

Patience, prayer, prudence and perseverance will pay off. That’s the hard part…

 

[po18guy]

Well well well…

Have a listen to this homily by Father Wade Menezes of the Fathers of Mercy:

 

[Rozellelily]

Eventually, we all will age and will not be as “attractive” on the exterior. It will be interesting to see how the social media generation will be able to cope with that.

That’s why half the women on Instagram are now getting cosmetic procedures like dermal fillers when they are young to try to ward off (excessive) aging.

I think you are right too that it comes from insecurity (both regarding me and other women).
The problem is though we live in a society where women compliment each other based off looks,women want to be found attractive by men,we have beauty and sexiness “shoved in our faces” constantly.

 

[Rozellelily]

I think the problem is more that in Australia there are the type of men you mentioned-ie:the “pub type” guys who have no issue with leering at women at pubs or strip clubs (we all know these type of men) but then there are other men who are not sleazy but still are like “wow” when see women at an upmarket bar with a sexy dress or at music festivals etc…
This is especially the case in 20’s and 30’s ages.
Even at Bondi beach now a lot of the women are wearing those swimwear that show half your bum (I won’t wear them).

I know a lot of men in their 30’s or late 20’s who aren’t the sleazy kind,are respectful,intelligent but at the same time are “easily impressed” by sexiness.
I think you are correct that I haven’t met too many men that aren’t like this.
Even if I did,tbh I would probably be cynical or think they were secretly gay.

 

[Rozellelily]

Thanks @po18guy,

I watched the fathers homily about modesty.
I see what his saying.
At the same time though things like modesty seem to be having less and less cultural relevance in a country like Australia as no men here talk about it or seem to care less (except for the Muslims).
So I’m surrounded by a culture where Christianity is no longer practiced much and to add on top of that 10 % of the men in Sydney are gay.

I’m not sure if I agree with Father Wades dislike of distressed jeans though.
While I think he is right that the primary purpose of clothing is to cover nakedness/modesty,the secondary purpose is not just comfort but is also fashion and self expression.
Realistically,as a business owner,looking from an economical perspective,if women didn’t buy half the fashions they bought (distressed jeans,singlet tops etc) wouldn’t the economy would be worse which would mean less government money to help people in need,infrastructure etc…?

 

[po18guy]

“At the same time though…” is the same as a “yeah, but…”
As to fashions: in principle, the legalization of vice is helpful to the economy, but hurtful to spirits.

We must exercise prudence and it is in short supply.

 

[Rozellelily]

At which point does women’s responsibility end and men’s responsibility to not take an interest begin?

Even if you don’t show your cleavage there will always be other women who will who the men will make nice comments to or “follow” so does it make any change in the world?

I think a lot of it is due to insecurity/low self esteem.
Some men are of the impression that women has cleavage in photos etc that shes doing it with the full intent to “seduce” and while it’s true that there are some women like this,most others do it due to insecurity and getting the “likes”.

If sexiness is wrong,then why is it that all (majority) of the singers and actresses have to be be sexy and beautiful.
It’s “validated” and rewarded by society,which explains why singers in their 50’s usually get cosmetic surgery because they “have” to retain an image of youthfulness and sexy to stay successful (unless they are extremely talented).

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I think you are correct that I haven’t met too many men that aren’t like this.
Even if I did,tbh I would probably be cynical or think they were secretly gay.

I’m sorry that you have to deal with immature men where you are.
At the same time, if you’re going to be cynical or think a man must be gay because he isn’t impressed by a woman revealing her breasts/ midriff/ behind, then you’re contributing to the problem.

Also, a lot of men who are hanging out with a group of men, such as at a pub, might make a comment about a woman’s body or a centerfold or something because they are just going along with the guys, but they don’t really want to be walking around with a woman who is herself wearing revealing clothes, for various reasons. One being that they don’t want other men getting an eyeful of “their” woman.

Hopefully after you get to know more men, you’ll meet some who like a reasonably modest woman to date, regardless of whether they might make a “wow” comment to go along with the boys at the bar.

 

[Irishmom2]

At which point does women’s responsibility end and men’s responsibility to not take an interest begin?

Even if you don’t show your cleavage there will always be other women who will who the men will make nice comments to or “follow” so does it make any change in the world?

I think a lot of it is due to insecurity/low self esteem.
Some men are of the impression that women has cleavage in photos etc that shes doing it with the full intent to “seduce” and while it’s true that there are some women like this,most others do it due to insecurity and getting the “likes”.

If sexiness is wrong,then why is it that all (majority) of the singers and actresses have to be be sexy and beautiful.
It’s “validated” and rewarded by society,which explains why singers in their 50’s usually get cosmetic surgery because they “have” to retain an image of youthfulness and sexy to stay successful (unless they are extremely talented).

Rozellelily, at what point will you get off social media and stop caring about getting likes? This is really too much of a concern to you. That, or a justification to wear whatever you want.

Stop worrying what other people are wearing and worry about your own clothing. There are many people that find nothing wrong with wearing immodest clothing. But as a Catholic, you should know better. And once you know it’s wrong, you need to stop comparing and questioning everyone else’s choices.

If you struggle with low self esteem, you might want to get some counseling. It will help you to resist following the crowd and give you the security in yourself no matter how you look, despite what “everyone” else is doing.

 

[mrsdizzyd]

Rozellelily, at what point will you get off social media and stop caring about getting likes? This is really too much of a concern to you. That, or a justification to wear whatever you want.

1000 likes!

 

[mrsdizzyd]

Be the black sheep…

 

[Elf01]

Rozellelily, at what point will you get off social media and stop caring about getting likes? This is really too much of a concern to you. That, or a justification to wear whatever you want.

I’m not so sure she cares about likes for herself so much as a potential husband liking other women.

 

[edwest211]

Modesty is never overrated. I watched the decline of the way people dress for decades. Being truly feminine and being truly masculine begins with two things: respect for self and respect for others. Behavior, in public and private, should be reserved. Revealing clothing, and that includes so-called swimsuits, are never an option. Being a gentlemen meant I had to be taught, the same as the women I know who behave in a manner that while enjoying life, and their beauty, know that there are certain lines that should never be crossed.

Try to erase those and social interaction is awkward and/or inappropriate. Some people have not learned how to talk to strangers. They don’t understand how to build relationships.