Is Mormonism Christian ?

[dianaiad]

If you suddenly accepted the One True God, then yes, Mormonsim would be a Christian religion.

It is mormonism that creates the circles, not Christians. That I point them out doesn’t make me the creator of the circles that you have found yourself navigating.

Me, I stopped following those roads a long time ago.

dianaiad:

Again, the problem is that those who would restrict the title “Christian” to those who believe as they do about Christ are missing the point—and the definition of the term.

Rebecca:

That you see this as a “problem” is exactly why mormonism is not considered Christian.

dianaiad:

OK…the reason that I’m not a Christian is because I object to being excluded from the definition of “Christian?”

If I suddenly ceased to object from being excluded, would I then become a Christian in your eyes?

I’ve driven ‘roundabouts’ in England that were less circular than that

Uhm, Rebecca? I know that the mechanics of this forum make it sometimes difficult to follow a conversation; you have to go to some trouble to include more than one response ‘backward.’

But the thing is, it IS possible to do it, so that it’s a good idea to not change a claim in the middle of the thread in the hope that nobody will go look and realize that you have just done a 90 degree switch.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Uhm, Rebecca? I know that the mechanics of this forum make it sometimes difficult to follow a conversation; you have to go to some trouble to include more than one response ‘backward.’

But the thing is, it IS possible to do it, so that it’s a good idea to not change a claim in the middle of the thread in the hope that nobody will go look and realize that you have just done a 90 degree switch.

I didn’t change my claim. Mormonism is not a Christian religion. You object to this based on definition, which, definition has been the definition for at least the first 1800 years of Christianity. The Evangelical movement didn’t arise until about the same time as Mormonism, so that puts the SAME definition being used by all Christians for 1800 years.

YOU see the apostolic teachings of 2000 years as a problem. And then wonder why Mormonism isn’t viewed as a Christian religion. Gee and golly, wonders of all wonders.

Mormonsim comes along and creates a new definition and then complains that Christians don’t accept this definition as Christian. All the while, telling us that being a Christian is about definition. To which I say, DUH!

Those are the circles you are driving. I didn’t create them.

Circular logic is the base doctrine of all of Mormonism.

That YOU cannot keep up with the circles is not my doing.

 

[RebeccaJ]

After reading through this thread, I would have to answer no.

“God” is a title?:knight2:

 

[BartBurk]

“God” is a title?:knight2:

I don’t know what you are referring to.

 

[dianaiad]

I didn’t change my claim. Mormonism is not a Christian religion. You object to this based on definition, which, definition has been the definition for at least the first 1800 years of Christianity. The Evangelical movement didn’t arise until about the same time as Mormonism, so that puts the SAME definition being used by all Christians for 1800 years.

Rebecca; my claim was this:

dianaiad:

Again, the problem is that those who would restrict the title “Christian” to those who believe as they do about Christ are missing the point—and the definition of the term.

There is nothing in there that addresses trinitarianism, or indeed ANY specific doctrine, and I did that deliberately. Y’see, I’ve seen people deny others the title ‘Christian’ because they WERE trinitarian. I’ve seen it denied to folks who had wine with dinner; who ‘pray to Mary;’ who consider works other than those included in Luther’s idea of what should be scripture AS scripture; those who use wine in communion; those who don’t; those who are modalist; those who aren’t; those who are sola scripturian; those who aren’t; those who are sola fidean; those who aren’t; those who…well, I hope you are getting the picture. From where I sit, there IS no standard list of doctrine that “Christians” must believe in order to be Christians, because everybody is making their own list–which, oddly enough, generally marches lockstep with their own beliefs.

The only common denominator is this: Everybody who claims to be Christian believes in the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth, called “Christ” as he or she believes those teachings to be.

Everything else seems to be up for grabs.

YOU see the apostolic teachings of 2000 years as a problem. And then wonder why Mormonism isn’t viewed as a Christian religion. Gee and golly, wonders of all wonders.

This is absolutely irrelevant to the word ‘Christian,’ Rebecca.

Mormonsim comes along and creates a new definition and then complains that Christians don’t accept this definition as Christian. All the while, telling us that being a Christian is about definition. To which I say, DUH!

Odd, I had NO idea that Mormons wrote all the dictionaries.

Those are the circles you are driving. I didn’t create them.

Circular logic is the base doctrine of all of Mormonism.

That YOU cannot keep up with the circles is not my doing.

Rebecca, the problem with our attempts at communication is that while I read what you actually write, and exegete the meaning from your actual words, you see that I have written something, and commit eisegesis.

I don’t really know who you are having this conversation with, but it doesn’t seem to be me.

 

[dianaiad]

“God” is a title?:knight2:

this is a shining case in point of my last post: I did NOT claim that “God” is a title. Quite the opposite.

 

[seekdatruth]

The waters are pretty treacherous in here! :slapfight:
I’ve seen Cathoilc beliefs concerning Mary explaned and debated countless times on here, but LDS who come in to defend themselves NEVER fully explain how this kind of accusations are not true. It;s a) "Too difficult for your Catholic minds to comprehend. "b) Just “wrong” or c) “go to our website and see for yourself” (How about I went to your church and heard contrary to what your glossy version on the website says?)

PJM:
How about a very real Heaven and a very real Hell? We Chrsitians belief this. Is this different than your “celestial heaven” where a man who has been married for life, marries his spiritual wife and they have children who then worship THEM, because now they to are “gods?”

Is not the LDS God from another planet near a star called Kolob? Did he not have several spirit wives and one of them give birth to Jesus and his brother satan? Was Jesus Christ the Creator in Genesis, and not his father? Are they two different beings?
Can you answer these questions with a “yes” or “no”?
If they are not true, then tell us the story of Creation as the LDS Church REALLY teaches. Then also, the birth of Jesus Christ, again, as the LDS church teaches. I’d like to see this “ball of yarn” unraveled. This way, we are no longer ignorant, and can see that you are indeed Christians.

 

[Bill_Pick]

“Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?”
Gal. 4:16

Mormonism Trying to Look More Christian

Issue Date: January/February 2008

Since Joseph Smith founded Mormonism, many changes have been made to make it look more Christian. As recent as 1978, Mormon leaders eliminated the ban on black men in their priesthood. The practice of polygamy was one of the things that got them in so much trouble with their neighbors soon after their founding. Joseph Smith had a couple dozen wives. Mormon leaders officially renounced polygamy in 1890 but splinter groups still practice it. Mormonism is constantly changing. Each new prophet has the authority to nullify previous teachings including the Bible.

In 1996, Mormon leaders reworked the official logo to put more emphasis on Jesus Christ in their name. Presidential candidate Mitt Romney attempted to look more “Christian” by stating: “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and the Savior of mankind.” However, he added a qualification: “My church’s beliefs about Christ may not all be the same as those of other faiths.”

And those beliefs about Jesus are so foundational that they have not changed much since founder Joseph Smith wrote them. Romney is right. His “church’s beliefs about Christ” are radically different from “other faiths,” especially those who believe the Bible.

The Mormon Jesus is one of a bunch of gods who began as men and attained godhood in a “celestial kingdom.” One Mormon doctrine is summarized as follows: “As man is, God once was; as God is, man may become.”

This briefly describes a complex theology involving multiple gods inhabiting remote planets with spirit wives having spirit babies to inhabit the physical bodies of children born to Mormons on earth. A Mormon aspires to become one of these gods with his own planet, spirit wife and making spirit babies.

 

[seekdatruth]

And if Mormonism is so great, and Catholicism so wrong, then why do you want to give yourselves any title that Catholics call themselves? Why does it matter if you call yourselves “Christian” or “Smithian”? If your beliefs are true and righteous, then what do you have to worry about?

 

[seekdatruth]

Mormonism is constantly changing. Each new prophet has the authority to nullify previous teachings including the Bible.

This article could be onto something there. Does the Pope have that kind of authority?
thanks for posting that, Bill.

 

[seekdatruth]

They always seem to bug out after someone demands an answer to those questions.

 

[dianaiad]

And if Mormonism is so great, and Catholicism so wrong, then why do you want to give yourselves any title that Catholics call themselves? Why does it matter if you call yourselves “Christian” or “Smithian”? If your beliefs are true and righteous, then what do you have to worry about?

Excuse me, but that’s a strange question. One may, with as much logic, ask Catholics why THEY 'want to give [themselves] any title that Mormons call themselves?"

We call ourselves Christians because we are. It’s not about trying to ingratiate ourselves with Catholics and Protestants so that we might be ‘more accepted.’ If THAT was what we wanted to do, we would have followed the lead of the RLDS, who gave up any claim to Mormonism, called themselves “The Community of Christ” and became another trinitarian Christian group.

(shrug) As well, the question might also be asked; why are you so determined to deny us the title? It’s not as if admitting that Mormons are Christian makes you Mormons, or infers that you agree with anything we believe; after all, you are willing to call Baptists “Christian” (even though a bunch of Baptists refuse you the same honor) and you don’t share their doctrine in many ways.

I am a Christian because I believe in Jesus Christ as my Savior and try to follow His teachings as I believe them to be. You are a Christian for the same reason. Do we share the same beliefs ABOUT Him? Well, we both believe that He is the Savior, the Only Begotten Son of God, that He was born of a virgin, lived, taught and was crucified, thus 'buying us with a price" (suffered for our sins…); that He arose on the third day and appeared to His apostles and continued to teach them.

We share that–if that doesn’t make us “Christian,” then the word has no meaning.

Does it make us “saved” or “correct?” Nope. It just makes us Christian.

You might want to ask yourself why you are so desperate to deny that a group that believes in Christ as the Savior is actually Christian–but however you couch the answer to yourself, it will come out this way:

you don’t want to be associated with our beliefs. You wish to make certain that everybody knows that we are ‘other.’

…and that should bother you.

 

[dianaiad]

They always seem to bug out after someone demands an answer to those questions.

Who is ‘they?’

 

[tundramom]

Excuse me, but that’s a strange question. One may, with as much logic, ask Catholics why THEY 'want to give [themselves] any title that Mormons call themselves?"

Because we used them first and they were defined FOR us by Jesus Himself. We don’t use the terms we have used and then redefine them to fit our own beliefs brought to us by a man who had less than moral qualities.

We call ourselves Christians because we are. It’s not about trying to ingratiate ourselves with Catholics and Protestants so that we might be ‘more accepted.’ If THAT was what we wanted to do, we would have followed the lead of the RLDS, who gave up any claim to Mormonism, called themselves “The Community of Christ” and became another trinitarian Christian group.

No, you call yourselves Christians because your SLC PR department found that they could gain more converts if your appearance, at least on the outside, would be more acceptable to them and you could reel them in with very watery milk. It is a fervent prayer of mine that you DO see the error of your ways and return to Truth. Or get it in the first place. Obviously the RLDS church has seen the error of their ways and if it’s good enough for JS’s direct descendants why isn’t it good enough for you? hmmmm a point to ponder!

(shrug) As well, the question might also be asked; why are you so determined to deny us the title? It’s not as if admitting that Mormons are Christian makes you Mormons, or infers that you agree with anything we believe; after all, you are willing to call Baptists “Christian” (even though a bunch of Baptists refuse you the same honor) and you don’t share their doctrine in many ways.

The essentials are the same between the Baptists and the Catholics. I’ve been through Protestantism after leaving Mormonism. I know how much more we Catholics and Baptists are alike. Mormonism doesn’t even come close.

I am a Christian because I believe in Jesus Christ as my Savior and try to follow His teachings as I believe them to be. You are a Christian for the same reason. Do we share the same beliefs ABOUT Him? Well, we both believe that He is the Savior, the Only Begotten Son of God, that He was born of a virgin, lived, taught and was crucified, thus 'buying us with a price" (suffered for our sins…); that He arose on the third day and appeared to His apostles and continued to teach them.

You deny Jesus his very nature. Otherwise he was just another man who agreed to do something good for you. You don’t actually see Him for who HE is. Oh and His name? It’s an obvious point to make that His last name wasn’t Christ. Yet those who are not Christians always seem to use it thus.

We share that–if that doesn’t make us “Christian,” then the word has no meaning.

Agreed. It has no meaning if you deny His very nature.

Does it make us “saved” or “correct?” Nope. It just makes us Christian.

Nope. It just makes you misinformed and in denial

You might want to ask yourself why you are so desperate to deny that a group that believes in Christ as the Savior is actually Christian–but however you couch the answer to yourself, it will come out this way:

you don’t want to be associated with our beliefs. You wish to make certain that everybody knows that we are ‘other.’

…and that should bother you.

You are absolutely correct. I do not in any way want to be associated with your beliefs. As a Christian, it is not only my duty, it is my right to make certain that Mormonism isn’t viewed as just another “Christian” denomination. Doesn’t bother me at all. Not one single bit. It is an honor and a joy to proclaim the Truth. It is my absolute service to God to shout it loud and clear with both actions and faith that I KNOW the differences between the two and Mormonism just doesn’t cut it. I am, by God’s grace, used by him to correct the political correctness that infiltrates the Christian world and their complacency to accept heretics as brothers and sisters.

in Christ
Steph

 

[dianaiad]

Because we used them first and they were defined FOR us by Jesus Himself. We don’t use the terms we have used and then redefine them to fit our own beliefs brought to us by a man who had less than moral qualities.

No, you call yourselves Christians because your SLC PR department found that they could gain more converts if your appearance, at least on the outside, would be more acceptable to them and you could reel them in with very watery milk. It is a fervent prayer of mine that you DO see the error of your ways and return to Truth. Or get it in the first place. Obviously the RLDS church has seen the error of their ways and if it’s good enough for JS’s direct descendants why isn’t it good enough for you? hmmmm a point to ponder!

Lessee…there is this, and then you go on to insult and disparage both my beliefs, my faith and my intelligence.

Here’s a hint: Nobody ever changed religions because his own was sufficiently insulted.

You deny Jesus his very nature. Otherwise he was just another man who agreed to do something good for you. You don’t actually see Him for who HE is. Oh and His name? It’s an obvious point to make that His last name wasn’t Christ. Yet those who are not Christians always seem to use it thus.

Oh, and His name? “Christ” comes from the Greek Krystos, meaning ‘anointed one;’ thus saying 'Jesus Christ" is saying “Jesus anointed” or, as one our apostles wrote in a book published by us, “Jesus the Christ” or “Jesus the anointed one.” Many people resolve this by saying “Christ Jesus” or 'anointed Jesus."

We are well aware that His last name was not “Christ.” He was known as “Jesus of Nazareth” or “Joshua” or Yeshua, or Jesus Ben Joseph…

What on earth was your point with THAT condescending and snarky comment?

You claim to have been a Mormon; I have no reason to disbelieve you, but since you were, you already are aware that we know this. So…why make that obvious and irrelevant point, since it happens to be a point that you KNOW we agree on?

What is it with you people, anyway?

Here is a forum called “non-Catholic religions.” That sure looks like an invitation to those who are non-Catholic to come and discuss stuff to me…

Now I’ve been here…not all that long. I still have ‘new member’ up under my screen name.

However, I have posted enough times (over 300…) since I’ve been here to give you a good sample.

Have I even once denigrated, insulted or said anything derogatory about Catholicism? Have I once attacked your beliefs, belittled them, or insulted any Catholic because he or she held them?

In fact, I have actually come down on your side against those who attacked your beliefs–even when I didn’t share those beliefs.

Tell me; do you think I’m going to hell?
What do you think I should do to keep from going there?

…and what have you done to make me want to do that?

Frankly, lady, if becoming a Catholic or a Protestant means that I would have to behave and react to people of other faiths the way you do, then…sorry. Not interested.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Rebecca; my claim was this:

There is nothing in there that addresses trinitarianism, or indeed ANY specific doctrine, and I did that deliberately. Y’see, I’ve seen people deny others the title ‘Christian’ because they WERE trinitarian. I’ve seen it denied to folks who had wine with dinner; who ‘pray to Mary;’ who consider works other than those included in Luther’s idea of what should be scripture AS scripture; those who use wine in communion; those who don’t; those who are modalist; those who aren’t; those who are sola scripturian; those who aren’t; those who are sola fidean; those who aren’t; those who…well, I hope you are getting the picture. From where I sit, there IS no standard list of doctrine that “Christians” must believe in order to be Christians, because everybody is making their own list–which, oddly enough, generally marches lockstep with their own beliefs.

That’s because from where you sit, Christianity is relative. From where I sit, it is not.

Which is not lock step with my own beliefs but that of the Church, which Jesus Christ founded, which has preserved and passed on through hundreds of years the correct doctrines of Christianity.

I find this in no other churches.

The only common denominator is this: Everybody who claims to be Christian believes in the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth, called “Christ” as he or she believes those teachings to be.

Everything else seems to be up for grabs.

That is your belief. Not mine.

Odd, I had NO idea that Mormons wrote all the dictionaries.

And I had no idea that the dictionary defined doctrines.

Rebecca, the problem with our attempts at communication is that while I read what you actually write, and exegete the meaning from your actual words, you see that I have written something, and commit eisegesis.

I don’t really know who you are having this conversation with, but it doesn’t seem to be me.

The problem you have is that you think like a Mormon. Which, is not a criticism, it just is. I don’t eisegesis. I read what you write. And what you wrote is, the definition of Christ is a problem. THAT definition, dear Diana, is what defines a Christian.

Your attempts to make truth relative to the person, is neither a teaching Mormonism or Catholicism.

 

[dianaiad]

That’s because from where you sit, Christianity is relative. From where I sit, it is not.

Thus you illustrate the pov of all of those I listed who think that “Christian” means 'he who believes exactly what I do about Christ." Thank you for proving it.

…and I don’t think that Christianity is ‘relative.’ I think it is bigger than you do, and encompasses all beliefs that identify themselves with Jesus the Christ.

It’s a label/classification of belief, not a stamp of divine approval.

Which is not lock step with my own beliefs but that of the Church, which Jesus Christ founded, which has preserved and passed on through hundreds of years the correct doctrines of Christianity

I find this in no other churches…

Same thing. You believe as your church does; if you didn’t, you’d belong to a different church.

That is your belief. Not mine.

What, that “Everybody who claims to be Christian believes in the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth, called “Christ” as he or she believes those teachings to be?” C’mon, Rebecca. The problem isn’t that you don’t believe this. The problem is that you believe that Christians must believe this–plus add ons.

And I had no idea that the dictionary defined doctrines.

It doesn’t. It does, however, define WORDS. Like ‘Christian.’ That you insist that a ‘true Christian’ MUST believe in certain doctrines in order to be a ‘true Christian’ is an attitude that is shared by folks who deny you the title. You do understand that, right? The only difference between you and the fundamentalist evangelist who waves signs that “Catholics are not Christian!” is your choice of doctrines to play ‘True Christian’ with.

The problem you have is that you think like a Mormon. Which, is not a criticism, it just is. I don’t eisegesis. I read what you write. And what you wrote is, the definition of Christ is a problem. THAT definition, dear Diana, is what defines a Christian

Except of course that I never wrote that 'the definition of Christ is a problem."

Your attempts to make truth relative to the person, is neither a teaching Mormonism or Catholicism.

Rebecca, you are falling into the mindset that the word “Christian” means “true” or “saved” or 'correct."

It doesn’t. It doesn’t mean any of those things.

When one points out that "motor vehicle’ includes all trucks, tractors, motorcycles, automobiles, motorized scooters and even some wheelchairs, it does not mean that one is making ‘truth’ relative to the motor vehicle. It simply means that “motor vehicle” applies to all means of transportation that uses motors.

Now a Mercedes may be annoyed that a Segway is a motor vehicle, but the fact is, it is. It’s simply not a Mercedes.

You may be annoyed that Mormonism is a Christian religion. The fact is, however, it is. It’s not Catholic. But it is Christian.

Do I think like a Mormon? Good. Because THIS Mormon is perfectly aware that Catholics are Christians, and so are Protestants. They aren’t “True” (as in, I don’t believe that they have all the truth in them…) but because they base their religion around a certain Jesus the Christ, they are Christian.

No matter what weird and wonderful things they may believe about Him.

 

[Bill_Pick]

I Have Another Question What Do Mormon Believe About The Trinity ,any One Please

 

[dianaiad]

I Have Another Question What Do Mormon Believe About The Trinity ,any One Please

Our first ARticle of Faith reads:

We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.

We believe that the three are distinct separate Individuals making up the one Godhead; together in purpose and intent, but not in anyway to be confused one with another.

They are ‘one’ as Christ spoke in John, chapter 17:

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

That’s pretty much it.

 

[RebeccaJ]

It doesn’t. It does, however, define WORDS. Like ‘Christian.’ That you insist that a ‘true Christian’ MUST believe in certain doctrines in order to be a ‘true Christian’ is an attitude that is shared by folks who deny you the title. You do understand that, right? The only difference between you and the fundamentalist evangelist who waves signs that “Catholics are not Christian!” is your choice of doctrines to play ‘True Christian’ with.

Except of course that I never wrote that 'the definition of Christ is a problem."

Rebecca, you are falling into the mindset that the word “Christian” means “true” or “saved” or 'correct."

It doesn’t. It doesn’t mean any of those things.

When one points out that "motor vehicle’ includes all trucks, tractors, motorcycles, automobiles, motorized scooters and even some wheelchairs, it does not mean that one is making ‘truth’ relative to the motor vehicle. It simply means that “motor vehicle” applies to all means of transportation that uses motors.

Now a Mercedes may be annoyed that a Segway is a motor vehicle, but the fact is, it is. It’s simply not a Mercedes.

You may be annoyed that Mormonism is a Christian religion. The fact is, however, it is. It’s not Catholic. But it is Christian.

I’m tired and working long hours, not getting much sleep and so will probably make less sense to you than is usual.

Your car analogy doesn’t work. I understand what you are saying. In my brain that is wired for programming and logic, you want everyone who knows the name Jesus to be an instance of Christianity. Only problem is, for something to be an instance of something else there has to be of the same nature. Mormonism is not the same nature as Christianity. It is something other. It might have wheels but it isn’t an automobile.

That being said. Do you remember in the Bible where the Apostles complain to Jesus that random people, who are not followers of Jesus, are casting out demons in His name? Jesus says (paraphrasing) to leave them alone, they are not against Him, therefore, they are for Him.

I have this in my head in almost every conversation about who-is-Christian.

The other thing in my head is that the Apostles clearly taught that right-teaching and right-understanding is paramount.

So I have these two things. Which, is why I say, on the one hand, Mormons are like those who are casting out demons in Jesus’ name.

Jesus did not say this made them/you one of His disciples. He only said, to leave them be.

On the other hand, as a Catholic, I believe right-teaching/understanding, what we call orthodoxy, is very important. Not just a little important. Very. As without it, you have a variety of craziness.

On top of that, I have no belief that Jesus’ is going to give us a theology test at our time of judgment. I do believe, and He taught, that we will be judged for how we interact with each other. Which, includes very clear instructions to teach and baptize others.

The teaching part, is where the Apostle’s admonitions come in again. Right teaching. Right belief.

So again, I say. I believe individual Mormons are Christian, in the sense that they follow Jesus’. But in the same form of those who were casting out demons in Jesus’ name.

Finally, this idea you have that Salvation is separate from Jesus’ is pointless. You cannot separate the two, especially not to make your religion into something it is not.