Is Mormonism Christian ?

[dianaiad]

ummm, the apostles were jailed and martyred because they did not deny Christ.

Actually, the charges were not that of ‘denying Christ,’ mostly. Mostly they were charges of, oh, atheism, and treason, and heresy, and fraud…

JS was tried (and jailed) for fraud, and also had warrants for his arrests all throughout his life for fraudulent behavior.

So did Jesus’ disciples and apostles, Rebecca. jesus Himself was tried and executed…why, exactly?

Does His arrest and conviction mean that He was guilty of the charges against Him?

Fraud is theft. Which doesn’t have much to do with the Apostles, unless you are calling them thieves.

Rebecca…

never mind.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Actually, the charges were not that of ‘denying Christ,’ mostly. Mostly they were charges of, oh, atheism, and treason, and heresy, and fraud…

So did Jesus’ disciples and apostles, Rebecca. jesus Himself was tried and executed…why, exactly?

Does His arrest and conviction mean that He was guilty of the charges against Him?

Rebecca…

never mind.

Please refrain from comparing Joseph Smith to Jesus. Thanks.

The thing is Diana, there are documents, real events, that make it very clear that Smith was the instigator of fraudulent schemes.

If you think this is the same as Christ’s sacrifice? No, you are not Christian.

 

[Paul_G]

ummm, the apostles were jailed and martyred because they did not deny Christ.

I agree the apostles did not deny Christ, but as dianaiad points out it was not the reason why they were put in jail.

JS was tried (and jailed) for fraud, and also had warrants for his arrests all throughout his life for fraudulent behavior.

Interesting though, no convictions

Fraud is theft. Which doesn’t have much to do with the Apostles, unless you are calling them thieves.

Since the accusers of Joseph Smith could not lay charges of teaching different religious ideas which differed with the status quo, the only thing they were left with is with what you suggest, but the motivation, was no doubt, religious differences - The same reasons the apostles where imprisoned.

Paul and the other Apostles were beaten, imprisoned and killed for their beliefs. Christ told them “no man is greater than his master,” and He also said, to paraphrase, “they would drink out of His cup.” In both statements, He was telling them they would be persecuted and killed as He was. In God’s Kingdom they will receive their rewards. Joseph Smith and other early leaders of the Church, for their belief in Jesus Christ, drank from the same cup.

Paul

 

[dianaiad]

Please refrain from comparing Joseph Smith to Jesus. Thanks.

The thing is Diana, there are documents, real events, that make it very clear that Smith was the instigator of fraudulent schemes.

If you think this is the same as Christ’s sacrifice? No, you are not Christian.

Rebecca?

I wasn’t comparing Joseph Smith to Jesus. I was pointing out that the excuses for the arrest and deaths of the early apostles (and yes, of Jesus Himself) were not the reasons…and the same is true for Joseph.

That isn’t comparing THEM–but it is comparing the methods people use to get rid of people whose beliefs make them nervous, or angry, or uncomfortable.

 

[Arandur]

That’s actually a great question, and it’s one I would very much like to discuss with you. Would you mind, however, if we put it off until the weekend?

First…I want to do some ‘gathering of resources.’ You look to be a debate opponent worth preparing for. I think it will be a very enlightening experience…if not for you, then for me!

Second, I am a Special Education teacher and I’m also taking classes…I honestly don’t have time to engage in the sort of debate that your question is going to require, not until Friday.

If you agree to this, I’ll begin a new thread on Friday specifically for this. I think perhaps…“The priesthood, covenant or contract?” would be a good title–unless you would prefer another one?

Diana

Taking it up later is fine. PM me with the thread, please, because this site is so large I may have difficulty finding it.

I have some other titles to suggest. It appears you want to go down the route of priesthood discussions, but the broader relationship between God and man and Church is what I was getting at and not limited to priesthood. Particularly considering that in my experience, discussions with Mormons about priesthood quickly get bogged down in minutiae and rarely bridge the gulf in our understanding (Mormons seem to think that nothing really changed with Christ’s coming, that his Church was essentially pre-existent with all doctrines present and revealed from the time of Adam, the Aaronic and Melchizedek priesthoods essentially unchanged from OT to NT, and that priesthood is valid to the extent of a priest’s own worthiness such that it is possible for priests to lose the Church for all the rest of the flock).

I’m more concerned in God’s unconditional love and what that means for us. I’m assuming you believe that He loves us unconditionally. To that end, some other titles I’d suggest for the thread:
“Does God love the Church unconditionally?”
“Consequences of unconditional love”
“Is God more faithful than man?”
“Is Christ in his Church?”
“God and His Church: Contract or Covenant?”

I could probably come up with more, if you don’t like those. The title does frame the discussion somewhat.

 

[jake23]

Poeple should give up on such sights far as trying to reveal the truth to the mormons. In person is a different story. I am proud to say that I have helped four people leave the church. If they are so far to defend it without considering the possibility of it being a lie bacause if they did they would come to the conclusion that it is false. They will not realize the truth until they have no choice to face it on judgement day. All mormons should do them selfs a favor and watch the book of mormon vs the Bible and the book of mormon vs. DNA. If you really believe in finding the truth then you will consider watching these and do some personal investigation, if you do not than clearly you are not sincerely searching for the truth. I on the other hand am done tring to shed some light to the blind because they do not care to open there eyes. If you truly believe in Mormonism than you will not be afraid to wathc these to bio’s. Good luck!

 

[AshleyBelle]

I have not read through all the posts, so I apologize if similar thoughts to my own have been posted…but I wanted to offer my opinion on the subject.

I don’t think mormonism is a religion we can “judge” as a whole… I think it must be done on an individual basis…and not by us. Ultimately, I think God knows which mormons are true Christians, (united to Jesus, however imperfectly) and which are not… Just as He knows which Catholics who profess to be Catholic are truly in communion with Jesus, and which are not, or only imperfectly united. Does that make sense?

Now…dogmatically and doctrinally I do not think the “religion” itself is based on the Christianity that Jesus taught. But I do think it is possible for a person to know Jesus through mormonism as He reveals Himself in their lives. And most importantly, I don’t think ANYONE has the right to judge whether a person is “saved” or truly “Christian.” What we are called to do is to share Jesus with the world, not to condemn the world.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Rebecca?

I wasn’t comparing Joseph Smith to Jesus. I was pointing out that the excuses for the arrest and deaths of the early apostles (and yes, of Jesus Himself) were not the reasons…and the same is true for Joseph.

That isn’t comparing THEM–but it is comparing the methods people use to get rid of people whose beliefs make them nervous, or angry, or uncomfortable.

FRAUD is not a difference in beliefs.

 

[dianaiad]

Poeple should give up on such sights far as trying to reveal the truth to the mormons. In person is a different story. I am proud to say that I have helped four people leave the church. If they are so far to defend it without considering the possibility of it being a lie bacause if they did they would come to the conclusion that it is false. They will not realize the truth until they have no choice to face it on judgement day. All mormons should do them selfs a favor and watch the book of mormon vs the Bible and the book of mormon vs. DNA. If you really believe in finding the truth then you will consider watching these and do some personal investigation, if you do not than clearly you are not sincerely searching for the truth. I on the other hand am done tring to shed some light to the blind because they do not care to open there eyes. If you truly believe in Mormonism than you will not be afraid to wathc these to bio’s. Good luck!

Jake, you claimed that you were LDS. You obviously were not. You claimed that we believe many things that we simply do not believe.

…and you are ‘proud’ that you have helped four people leave the church?

How?

 

[dianaiad]

FRAUD is not a difference in beliefs.

In religion, ‘fraud’ is a term that people use to insult those who believe differently than they do.

In the case of Joseph Smith (and some other people) the legal excuse used was not the reason for the excuse.

So no, “fraud” is not a difference of beliefs. But calling someone a fraud when the true problem is that their is a difference of beliefs?

yeah, that’s a 'difference in beliefs."

 

[RebeccaJ]

In religion, ‘fraud’ is a term that people use to insult those who believe differently than they do.

In the case of Joseph Smith (and some other people) the legal excuse used was not the reason for the excuse.

So no, “fraud” is not a difference of beliefs. But calling someone a fraud when the true problem is that their is a difference of beliefs?

yeah, that’s a 'difference in beliefs."

How ridiculous. Arrests records. Jail time. Bailouts. This is not out of a difference of belief.

The Kirtland Bank was not a difference of beliefs. Unless you view that JS lost a huge amount of credibility and 1/2 his followers because of this FRAUD.

 

[dianaiad]

How ridiculous. Arrests records. Jail time. Bailouts. This is not out of a difference of belief.

The Kirtland Bank was not a difference of beliefs. Unless you view that JS lost a huge amount of credibility and 1/2 his followers because of this FRAUD.

What jail time, Rebecca? Joseph didn’t serve a single day as a result of a conviction. Not one. He was jailed–and set free upon being found innocent. he was jailed–then murdered before he could have a trial–

Look, you have just made several claims.

Please prove them.

Show us where Joseph Smith was convicted and served jail time as a result.

If you are going to decide that simply being arrested and posting bail–or that even being convicted of something–is proof that a man is NOT a prophet, then you may as well burn every bible you own and become an atheist; because there are very, very few religions around whose founders have not had legal problems, Chrsiitianity as a whole, and Catholicism in particular, are no exception. People around religious leaders beginning a new belief system tend to get…upset…with them.

 

[majick275]

Rebecca?

I wasn’t comparing Joseph Smith to Jesus. I was pointing out that the excuses for the arrest and deaths of the early apostles (and yes, of Jesus Himself) were not the reasons…and the same is true for Joseph.

That isn’t comparing THEM–but it is comparing the methods people use to get rid of people whose beliefs make them nervous, or angry, or uncomfortable.

yet it always comes across that way.JS himself promoted that view in numerous quotes.

Just because the Apostles were falsely accused doesn’t provide any validity to anyone else claims of the same. We can look back now and see that the early Christians were in fact innocent. we can also look back and see that JS was not.

The methods may be similar but it doesn’t make them wrong. Even if we take your best case and say no one would have cared about JS deeds had he been a methodist or presbyterian it still does nothing to promote his cause as a “prophet”. it merely puts him in the same boat as charles taze russel or ellen white.

I don’t think we can do that though because his verifiable actions put him in the position of posing a credible threat to his neighbors.

imagine if you will, if the FLDS had a well armed militia that was larger than the nearest national guard unit. picture them drilling often and openly while their leaders openly preached how they would soon rule the nation. now picture them going out and about in town and actively recruiting women (married or not and of any age) to be their plural wives. now add in taking over all of the local public offices by bringing in enough new people to outvote everyone else. when someone protests and publishes their thoughts on the whole situation in a local newspaper, the paper is completely destroyed by order of said local officials.

that sounds pretty bad but it still doesn’t demonstrate the level of threat that JS was since he had started his own “bank” with it’s own money leaving many investors out in the cold. the people there and then also didn’t have the resources we have today to protect from that either.

none of it justifies JS murder but it sure makes him VERY different than the Apostles of the Bible.

 

[look3467]

And Could Smith Have A True Prophet From God ? And If Yes, Why

!. Yes.
2. Yes.

One verse: Luk 19:10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

Question is why was it lost and why did Jesus have to come and save it?

If the world was lost, that includes every soul that was ever born in the flesh, is it not what He came to save?

Is Joesph Smith any different than you and I, and were we not previously lost, but now are founded in Jesus?

Should we not extend the hand of Gods love via our compassion, our help and our friendship?

To me, that would be in accordance with Gods commandments.

Let them be who they want to be, but you and I should demonstrate who and what God is by what we practice.

Many Mormons are faithful to their families, true to their faith in God and worship Him from their hearts.

If they should alienate others because of what they believe, then their missing the point.

Peace>>>AJ

 

[Arandur]

Oh, how fun!
One verse:
Galations 1:8-9 “But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach [to you] a gospel other than the one that we preached to you, let that one be accursed! As we have said before, and now I say again, if anyone preaches to you a gospel other than the one that you received, let that one be accursed! [anethema]”

How about another:
2 Corinthians 11:12-15 “And what I do I will continue to do, in order to end this pretext of those who seek a pretext for being regarded as we are in the mission of which they boast. For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, who masquerade as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for even Satan masquerades as an angel of light. So it is not stranger that his ministers also masquerade as ministers of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.”

Just for fun:
1 Tim 3:14-15: “I am writing you about these matters, although I hope to visit you soon.
But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.”

Luke 6:46-49
“Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ but not do what I command?
I will show you what someone is like who comes to me, listens to my words, and acts on them.That one is like a person building a house, who dug deeply and laid the foundation on rock; when the flood came, the river burst against that house but could not shake it because it had been well built. But the one who listens and does not act is like a person who built a house on the ground without a foundation. When the river burst against it, it collapsed at once and was completely destroyed.”

Luke 14:26-31
“If any one comes to me without hating his father 7 and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple.
Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after me cannot be my disciple.
Which of you wishing to construct a tower does not first sit down and calculate the cost to see if there is enough for its completion?
Otherwise, after laying the foundation and finding himself unable to finish the work the onlookers should laugh at him
and say, 'This one began to build but did not have the resources to finish.’”

Of course, you will have your own interpretation of these passages. I post these in response to your Scripture drive-by, which explains one of the reasons for Christ, and suggests that the Church that he founded was a rectification of that condition and a beacon to the lost. Do you really think he’d come and do all that only to let it be lost again (in a “great apostasy”)?

That’s what really gets me. Not so much that Mormons are deceived by the testimony of a questionable man who took direction to a different gospel from angels and himself masqueraded as an apostle–for this is deception.

But to actually posit a “great apostasy” in light of all of Christ’s promises, his Divine Institution of the Church, and what he says about wise men and foolish men in parables…! For make no mistake, to suggest a “great apostasy” is to call Jesus himself a liar, an oathbreaker, to proclaim the death of his Body, and, in light of those last two passages alone, a fool and a hypocrite. Frankly, it’s insulting blasphemy.

 

[look3467]

Arandur,

I hear you!

Alls I can tell you is that Gods love is not limited to what we think it is.

I can say nothing to change anything about what you want to believe unless the Holy Spirit directs you.

Therefore, you are apt to criticize only by what you know and understand, but wait, and be patient, if you are seeking a deeper truth, God will reveal it to you, He promised.

Peace>>>AJ

 

[RebeccaJ]

What jail time, Rebecca? Joseph didn’t serve a single day as a result of a conviction. Not one. He was jailed–and set free upon being found innocent. he was jailed–then murdered before he could have a trial–

Look, you have just made several claims.

Please prove them.

Show us where Joseph Smith was convicted and served jail time as a result.

If you are going to decide that simply being arrested and posting bail–or that even being convicted of something–is proof that a man is NOT a prophet, then you may as well burn every bible you own and become an atheist; because there are very, very few religions around whose founders have not had legal problems, Chrsiitianity as a whole, and Catholicism in particular, are no exception. People around religious leaders beginning a new belief system tend to get…upset…with them.

here we are again…mormonism or atheism…thanks for recommending atheism.

People around con men who are philanderers with grand ideas of creating their own country (please see the Nauvoo Charter) tend to get people upset. I’m sorry you think this sort of thing is defensible.

JS: convicted of fraud in the Kirtland Bank fiasco and failure, fined $1000, appealed. Numerous lawsuits filed, JS and Sidney Rigdon lost. Both fled to Missouri before the appeal and other lawsuits waiting could go to court.

JS: convicted of fraud in NY for “glass looking”, ie, telling people he could find treasure with a rock and charging for those services. (Something he also tried, as a means to raise cash, before creating the Kirtland Bank.)

JS: jailed, both in Kirtland and in Nauvoo. Kirtland, his followers raised the money for bail. Nauvoo, the city of Nauvoo (comprised almost entirely of Mormons), over ruled THE STATE order to hold him in jail and released him.

I said jail time. You twisted that to jail time for the crimes. If he were tried for his last crime, treason, the possiblity was he would have been in jail for life.

As what this has to do with being a prophet. JS claimed a revelation that he should start the Kirtland Bank and told people that GOD would make it the greatest bank in the country.

Meanwhile, he had a chest full of his bank notes in his vault with a layer of silver coins over the top, so people would believe his fraudulent bank notes were backed by silver.

Also, the bank itself was illegaly setup. When he and Sidney Rigdon applied for a bank charter, it was denied. Having already purchased, at no small expense, the printing plates to print their bank notes, they went ahead and printed bank notes. ILLEGALLY. Backed by nothing.

Tell me, in this similar climate today of bad credit and ponzi schemes…was this fulfilling a “revelation”? I hope to God almighty you say no, otherwise, I worry for your financial well being.

Kirland Bank note, signed by Joseph Smith and Sydney Rigdon:

 

[jake23]

Joseph Smith also required a liquer liscense. that is public record and anyone can pull that up. Jospeh Smith was given a Papyri to look at and JS calimed that through god he could translate the Heiroglyphs. JS said the pictures where of abraham being offered as a sacrifice by a false priest to gods. Mormons vendicated this as proof that Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God. This Papryi was lost and found again in 1967 where Egyptoligists viewed and gave the correct transaltion which was a funerary text from the book of the dead. It is displayed today in the New York museum. They also found this funerary text under the heads of mummys which was a sign to draw bad spirits away. So we can prove that on this Joseph Smith was defintely lying about god giving him the gift to translate it! the funny thing is that it is still displayed in the mormons pearl of great price even thought there is unquestionable hard proof that the transaltion was false!

 

[Neolithic]

I do that, why doesn’t that make me a follower of Jesus, or does it, or is it just the appellation “Christian” you deny me?

I don’t know anything about you.

There are such things as prophets, there are no such things as vampires. Possible vs. Impossible

There is no evidence that prophets are possible. That takes faith. Believing in vampires takes faith, too.

The apostles were thrown into jail by accusers, does that make them disqualified.

Well, there’s a difference. If you believe the Bible, then they were being thrown into jail for following God. Certain aspects of the Bible have been proven true, so that gives us at least some reason to have a faith in it. The Book of Mormon is contradictory; there are things in it which simply aren’t historically accurate; and Joseph Smith was a crook.

Could you point out the riches he amassed, or the carefree and lavish lifestyle he provided for himself as a result?

Paul

I never said he was rich. I said he sought profit, and he did. He was a crook. But, he was killed while in jail not long after the founding of the church, so he didn’t have time to amass great wealth.

 

[truthsilence]

here we are again…mormonism or atheism…thanks for recommending atheism.

People around con men who are philanderers with grand ideas of creating their own country (please see the Nauvoo Charter) tend to get people upset. I’m sorry you think this sort of thing is defensible.

JS: convicted of fraud in the Kirtland Bank fiasco and failure, fined $1000, appealed. Numerous lawsuits filed, JS and Sidney Rigdon lost. Both fled to Missouri before the appeal and other lawsuits waiting could go to court.

JS: convicted of fraud in NY for “glass looking”, ie, telling people he could find treasure with a rock and charging for those services. (Something he also tried, as a means to raise cash, before creating the Kirtland Bank.)

JS: jailed, both in Kirtland and in Nauvoo. Kirtland, his followers raised the money for bail. Nauvoo, the city of Nauvoo (comprised almost entirely of Mormons), over ruled THE STATE order to hold him in jail and released him.

I said jail time. You twisted that to jail time for the crimes. If he were tried for his last crime, treason, the possiblity was he would have been in jail for life.

As what this has to do with being a prophet. JS claimed a revelation that he should start the Kirtland Bank and told people that GOD would make it the greatest bank in the country.

Meanwhile, he had a chest full of his bank notes in his vault with a layer of silver coins over the top, so people would believe his fraudulent bank notes were backed by silver.

Also, the bank itself was illegaly setup. When he and Sidney Rigdon applied for a bank charter, it was denied. Having already purchased, at no small expense, the printing plates to print their bank notes, they went ahead and printed bank notes. ILLEGALLY. Backed by nothing.

Tell me, in this similar climate today of bad credit and ponzi schemes…was this fulfilling a “revelation”? I hope to God almighty you say no, otherwise, I worry for your financial well being.

Kirland Bank note, signed by Joseph Smith and Sydney Rigdon:

Thanks Rebecca. I didn’t know any of this.