Is most of the music we hear at Mass [censored!]

[Marysann]

Another source of good Catholic music for choirs is Corpus Christi Watershed at ccwatershed.org. They have produced propers for each Sunday in English, and have great resources in English and Latin that can be used by an amateur choir. They also have a blog that will be very encouraging to someone who is trying to raise the level of music in a parish.

 

[Redd_Jackal]

During a recent program on WEWN Catholic Radio, the host tried to get a noteworthy pipe organist to comment on the awfulness of Haugen hymnody.

 

[otjm]

Er, to be honest…

THAT SONG REALLY GETS ON MY NERVES! IT’S THE CHRISTMAS SONG EQUIVALENT OF FINGERNAILS ON A CHALKBOARD!

…I don’t care much for that song either. Unfortunately we usually have it inflicted on us in the form of a “solo” (usually by a young woman with delusions of being the next Amy Grant) every Christmas at my home parish.

And I thought it was Kenny Rogers who made it so popular…

 

[otjm]

Mark Shea writes an article here which makes a similar point. He says that the song portrays Mary as clueless and even hostile towards Jesus. “[It’s] a song that has no place in the liturgy since it is…marinated in a [poor] theology.”

However, I don’t think the song is bad and I don’t think it reflects poor theology. I think it asks her all those questions about what she knew in order to prompt us to reflect on what the Scriptures say she knew. The gospels portray Mary with plenty of knowledge of the Messiah’s role and her Son’s identity, and I think the song is meant to point us toward that.

If Mary Didn’t know any of the stuff the song asks her about, it would seem to follow that her role in salvation history was to bear the Messiah cluelessly, and therefore without some degree of informed consent. No consent is a consequence of no knowledge. But I don’t think the song indicates that she didn’t know who her Son was, so I don’t accept the consequence either. The song doesn’t deny that Mary consented to being Jesus’s mother, knowing who He would be. It just asks her to tell us about it, in my opinion.

My fallible, could-be-wrong opinion.

I agree with your analysis, but still would prefer to hear it in an other-than-liturgy/church setting.

 

[otjm]

I agree with Dr. Kreeft. Only sacred music should be permitted in the Mass. I thought it was hilarious when he said, “They do not even rise to the dignity of heresy.”

We have lots of sacred music - it is just that some aficionados have their personal opinion of what constitutes “sacred” and to hades with the rest of us - being the greater majority.

Look at OCP - what at least used to be everyone’s favorite whipping boy - and if anyone bothered to look at the small note at the bottom of a multitude of the songs in the hymnal, they would find the direct scriptural references to the text of the song.

Oh, but that’s not sacred music. My (backside).

We had a schola which, from the sound of it, only selected those with serious voice training. During Mystagogy, I would take the new converts to a Saturday night Mass at that parish so they could hear older liturgical music - once or twice they did chant (not Gregorian, but multi-voice) but usually it was something from Palestrina or other long-dead composers of centuries ago.

And the results were almost always the same: for some, it made their socks roll up and down; others were somewhat neutral, and still others did not like it.

And I always went to Mass on Sunday, as the whole thing struck me as a concert and a show-off of “aren’t we just the most talented”. It was so distracting, I couldn’t keep focused on the Mass.

That is just my personal opinion, but even for those whose socks took a trip never seemed to go back - and it wasn’t exactly a horrible travel to get there.

Some people seem to think that music at Mass either needs to sound like a dirge or a concert.

I don’t.

I love my local Trappist abbey (although because of age, they can no longer sing chant as well as they could 40 or 50 years ago - and I have been going there for longer than that); I was part of a schola which cut a record when I was in the seminary 50 years ago; I have both Byzantine and Gregorian chant stations on Pandora, and I wish chant was piped into the adoration chapel softly where we have Perpetual Adoration. I am not fond of everything OCP puts put, but it works for most parishes; just not for the aficionados.

Maybe that group should stick to angels on the head of a pin and quit telling us how to worship, and that we are doing such an extremely poor job of it.

I would never tell anyone in a parish which had Palestrina they were wrong. I just would go to Mass when the schola was not singing, or far more likely, to a different parish. There is obviously some advantage to having someone do that, as there are people who want that. They are, however, in an extremely small minority, in spite of how loud they are.

 

[DaveBj]

What’s wrong with the lyrics to Mary Did You Know?

It makes it sound like she was clueless…and her role was just hoisted upon her. It takes away her fiat.

There are FAR better choices, in the realm of Catholic Mass Appropriate Music.

Mark Shea writes an article here which makes a similar point. He says that the song portrays Mary as clueless and even hostile towards Jesus. “[It’s] a song that has no place in the liturgy since it is…marinated in a [poor] theology.”

However, I don’t think the song is bad and I don’t think it reflects poor theology. I think it asks her all those questions about what she knew in order to prompt us to reflect on what the Scriptures say she knew. The gospels portray Mary with plenty of knowledge of the Messiah’s role and her Son’s identity, and I think the song is meant to point us toward that.

If Mary Didn’t know any of the stuff the song asks her about, it would seem to follow that her role in salvation history was to bear the Messiah cluelessly, and therefore without some degree of informed consent. No consent is a consequence of no knowledge. But I don’t think the song indicates that she didn’t know who her Son was, so I don’t accept the consequence either. The song doesn’t deny that Mary consented to being Jesus’s mother, knowing who He would be. It just asks her to tell us about it, in my opinion.

My fallible, could-be-wrong opinion.

The real thing to ask is what did the composer intend to convey?
Seriously though. the problem from my viewpoint is that many secular thoughts creep into our children’s minds. Secular notions being presented as “gospel” you should pardon the expression. This reminds me of a dear cradle catholic friend of mine who read the Da Vinci Code and said “Clare! I didn’t know Jesus was the boyfriend of Mary Magdalene!” Like it was true because someone wrote it down.

Kids are pretty vulnerable, and so are the Christmas and Easter Catholics.

peace.

To find out what the composer was thinking, I would recommend listening to this excerpt from the video Mark Lowry on Broadway, starting about 7:00.

I’m in late on this discussion; I’ve been out of touch at a music camp (not Christian music) for a week. On the subject of the main topic, I’m of two minds. First, as a Christian songwriter (altho I have not written anything specifically for Catholic liturgical use), I have sometimes wondered how long I would have to be dead before my songs would be acceptable.

On the other hand, there are songs that are sung in our parish that are pretty drecky. I don’t say anything (other than to my wife), because we have a diverse congregation, and I know that the music director is under pressure to keep everyone happy. So, if the lyric or melody of a particular song is personally objectionable, I just don’t sing it. I would not mind at all going to all chant, but in our parish that’s not going to happen, so I wouldn’t even bring it up.

 

[HelenRose]

Most of the complainers would hate the music everywhere.
There. I said it.
Yes I did.
Being a church musician fro most of my life (even in my latest position within the parish and a Catholic school, I have always contributed to the music liturgy) haters are everywhere.
The Mass is not the personal property of anyone.
If a pastor wants a certain kind of music, he will always say so. Believe it or not, all music takes place with the expressed approval of the Pastor. :yup:

Going up to the Choir Director with “suggestions” doesn’t help. Rolling your eyes is not nice. Holding your hands over your ears? Just rude.

I would love to read the entire article.
But I suspect that the same people that get worked up about this are the same ones that criticize every homily, every priest that visits, and every religion teacher in the parish.

I say this all the time: I always offer to lead a schola. I always offer to place the Latin hymns where they are supposed to be for big feasts, not even all the time!. I am told, "nah…the people don’t remember it, know it, want to learn it, or whatever. So don’t do it please. "

I don’t want to go back to the 4x4 hymns all the time, but I am sad that the children have no clue of the CLASSIC Catholic hymns that every Catholic should know, or at least be able to follow along.

I don’t particularly like the praise and worship music. It has it’s place at youth groups and gatherings…but most of it is not for liturgy. And it’s hard for certain segments of the congregation to sing well. If you don’t have a band…don’t even try it. It sounds stupid.
Do what you can do WELL…and let the haters rant.

Peace out.

We need to start a self help group for choir members and directors. It helps to vent from time to time.

 

[Enim]

If you want to be traditional sing the proper antiphons in their chant form and feature a hymn to suit the season or feast. If you want to be contemporary and cutting edge, then sing the proper antiphons still using the same chant form. Chant, properly sung with some zest will present the roots of rock-and-roll’s modal motifs and jazz’s harmonies.

 

[oldgraymare2]

Er, to be honest…

THAT SONG REALLY GETS ON MY NERVES! IT’S THE CHRISTMAS SONG EQUIVALENT OF FINGERNAILS ON A CHALKBOARD!

…I don’t care much for that song either. Unfortunately we usually have it inflicted on us in the form of a “solo” (usually by a young woman with delusions of being the next Amy Grant) every Christmas at my home parish.

Wait…

Not you, too?

 

[AnnArbor]

We have lots of sacred music - it is just that some aficionados have their personal opinion of what constitutes “sacred” and to hades with the rest of us - being the greater majority.

Look at OCP - what at least used to be everyone’s favorite whipping boy - and if anyone bothered to look at the small note at the bottom of a multitude of the songs in the hymnal, they would find the direct scriptural references to the text of the song.

Oh, but that’s not sacred music. My (backside).

We had a schola which, from the sound of it, only selected those with serious voice training. During Mystagogy, I would take the new converts to a Saturday night Mass at that parish so they could hear older liturgical music - once or twice they did chant (not Gregorian, but multi-voice) but usually it was something from Palestrina or other long-dead composers of centuries ago.

And the results were almost always the same: for some, it made their socks roll up and down; others were somewhat neutral, and still others did not like it.

And I always went to Mass on Sunday, as the whole thing struck me as a concert and a show-off of “aren’t we just the most talented”. It was so distracting, I couldn’t keep focused on the Mass.

That is just my personal opinion, but even for those whose socks took a trip never seemed to go back - and it wasn’t exactly a horrible travel to get there.

Some people seem to think that music at Mass either needs to sound like a dirge or a concert.

I don’t.

I love my local Trappist abbey (although because of age, they can no longer sing chant as well as they could 40 or 50 years ago - and I have been going there for longer than that); I was part of a schola which cut a record when I was in the seminary 50 years ago; I have both Byzantine and Gregorian chant stations on Pandora, and I wish chant was piped into the adoration chapel softly where we have Perpetual Adoration. I am not fond of everything OCP puts put, but it works for most parishes; just not for the aficionados.

Maybe that group should stick to angels on the head of a pin and quit telling us how to worship, and that we are doing such an extremely poor job of it.

I would never tell anyone in a parish which had Palestrina they were wrong. I just would go to Mass when the schola was not singing, or far more likely, to a different parish. There is obviously some advantage to having someone do that, as there are people who want that. They are, however, in an extremely small minority, in spite of how loud they are.

 

[27lw]

We have lots of sacred music - it is just that some aficionados have their personal opinion of what constitutes “sacred” and to hades with the rest of us - being the greater majority.

Look at OCP - what at least used to be everyone’s favorite whipping boy - and if anyone bothered to look at the small note at the bottom of a multitude of the songs in the hymnal, they would find the direct scriptural references to the text of the song.

Oh, but that’s not sacred music. My (backside).

We had a schola which, from the sound of it, only selected those with serious voice training. During Mystagogy, I would take the new converts to a Saturday night Mass at that parish so they could hear older liturgical music - once or twice they did chant (not Gregorian, but multi-voice) but usually it was something from Palestrina or other long-dead composers of centuries ago.

And the results were almost always the same: for some, it made their socks roll up and down; others were somewhat neutral, and still others did not like it.

And I always went to Mass on Sunday, as the whole thing struck me as a concert and a show-off of “aren’t we just the most talented”. It was so distracting, I couldn’t keep focused on the Mass.

That is just my personal opinion, but even for those whose socks took a trip never seemed to go back - and it wasn’t exactly a horrible travel to get there.

Some people seem to think that music at Mass either needs to sound like a dirge or a concert.

I don’t.

I love my local Trappist abbey (although because of age, they can no longer sing chant as well as they could 40 or 50 years ago - and I have been going there for longer than that); I was part of a schola which cut a record when I was in the seminary 50 years ago; I have both Byzantine and Gregorian chant stations on Pandora, and I wish chant was piped into the adoration chapel softly where we have Perpetual Adoration. I am not fond of everything OCP puts put, but it works for most parishes; just not for the aficionados.

Maybe that group should stick to angels on the head of a pin and quit telling us how to worship, and that we are doing such an extremely poor job of it.

I would never tell anyone in a parish which had Palestrina they were wrong. I just would go to Mass when the schola was not singing, or far more likely, to a different parish. There is obviously some advantage to having someone do that, as there are people who want that. They are, however, in an extremely small minority, in spite of how loud they are.

Like, like, like. I like this, I don’t like that. What does the Church teach that sacred music is? It’s not just any old setting of something scripture-based, in any musical style.

 

[XndrK]

Mary … DID YOU KNOW THAT?

 

[RPRPsych]

Wait…

Not you, too?

I’m afraid so, yes.

 

[otjm]

Like, like, like. I like this, I don’t like that. What does the Church teach that sacred music is? It’s not just any old setting of something scripture-based, in any musical style.

The Church teaches that Gregorian Chant should have pride of place.

It is also a fact that for a seriously long time (Ora Labora, where are you?) Gregorian chant had been falling off in terms of favor - which is another way to say usage.

Vatican 2 made an attempt to bring it back. That attempt has made serously little headway. Gregorian chant, to be performed decently, needs to be sung by a choir, not the congregation.

And much of the emphasis of Vatican 2 has been towards congregational singing.

Which is not Gregorian chant.

And not to make too fine a point of it, the Church did not define sacred music as either Gregorian Chant or Palestrina’s efforts.

 

[Gertabelle]

The Church teaches that Gregorian Chant should have pride of place.

Vatican 2 made an attempt to bring it back. That attempt has made serously little headway. Gregorian chant, to be performed decently, needs to be sung by a choir, not the congregation.

And much of the emphasis of Vatican 2 has been towards congregational singing.

I’ve heard this several times on CAF, and I’m not sure why people think Gregorian chant can’t be sung by ordinary people.
Are you perhaps confusing Gregorian chant with polyphony?

In my parish, we sing a lot of chant at the mass where I play the organ. At the end of communion, we always sing a Marian antiphon appropriate to the season. Currently that’s the “Salve Regina” – Gregorian chant.

We also sing “Pange Lingua,” “Ubi Caritas,” and other such chants in Latin, as well as the parts of the mass in English or Latin on a regular basis. The congregation absolutely sings along. We can hear them from the choir loft.

What’s needed is either a good organ accompaniment, or a good group of a capella singers to keep everyone singing together, just as with any other hymn. Thankfully, our little group of children and teens are the perfect leaders for singing chant – no divas.

 

[ProVobis]

I’ve heard this several times on CAF, and I’m not sure why people think Gregorian chant can’t be sung by ordinary people.
Are you perhaps confusing Gregorian chant with polyphony?

I agree. Credo III is probably a good example of Gregorian chant sung in Africa, for example, where faith is spreading, or so I’m told.

 

[otjm]

I’ve heard this several times on CAF, and I’m not sure why people think Gregorian chant can’t be sung by ordinary people.
Are you perhaps confusing Gregorian chant with polyphony?

In my parish, we sing a lot of chant at the mass where I play the organ. At the end of communion, we always sing a Marian antiphon appropriate to the season. Currently that’s the “Salve Regina” – Gregorian chant.

We also sing “Pange Lingua,” “Ubi Caritas,” and other such chants in Latin, as well as the parts of the mass in English or Latin on a regular basis. The congregation absolutely sings along. We can hear them from the choir loft.

What’s needed is either a good organ accompaniment, or a good group of a capella singers to keep everyone singing together, just as with any other hymn. Thankfully, our little group of children and teens are the perfect leaders for singing chant – no divas.

Having been part of a schola which cut a record of Gregorian chant when I was in the seminary - decades ago - I kinda think I know what Gregorian chant is.

And I have heard it sung for 66 years - I won’t count the first four years of my life. I have heard it sung by choirs (and been part of those choirs as a child - I could eventually sing the Requiem by heart); heard it sung by monks, scholas and communities.

It saddens me to hear my favorite Trappists sing chant (not Gregorian, but plain chant) as they are elderly (most of them are older than I am) as they no longer have the discipline of youthful voices. And I have heard it slaughtered by all too many communities who haven’t the faintest bit of training.

I love Gregorian chant (as I have a channel of it, as well as Byzantine chant, on Pandora), but hearing it slaughtered by a community is more than I can bear. And I am no musicologist.

Yes, once a year our parish sings Pange Ligua, but to call that Gregorian chant is about like calling a street urchin’s clothes haute couture. It is an extremely poor rendition of chant as it should be sung. It is a nice hymn. Sung about as well as communities sing other hymns. As prayer it is find and dandy. As music… ahhh, not so much.

And I am fine with community singing. I have had my say about going to Mass with a professional or semi professional schola; I don’t go to Mass to hear a concert.

It (a community singing chant) is, IMHO, akin to hearing a choir singing Palestrina, some of them off key, and sliding into notes like they were some sort of lounge lizard chanteuse.

And that is not to make any reflection on anyone else who prefers that; it is simply my opinion.

But I am most definitly opionionated.

 

[Gertabelle]

I agree. Credo III is probably a good example of Gregorian chant sung in Africa, for example, where faith is spreading, or so I’m told.

Hymns – even polyphony – are more predictable than Gregorian chant in their melodic and metric structures. Still, there is a beautiful simplicity and coherence that makes chant extremely accessible with regular use.

Oh, I loved singing the Credo back when I was in the monastery! I remember waiting to see which mass Mother would put up on the board after Lauds – loved the Credo III.

Of course, some people probably didn’t think we had enough vocal training to sing it “properly.” But I’m pretty sure God was satisfied with our efforts.
Actually, that makes me wonder. When people say that Gregorian chant cannot be sung by the congregation, and then they also complain that the choir isn’t good enough, young enough, and so on, what’s left for us? Mass without music? Or singing the latest offerings from Breaking Bread?

Nah. I think those of us who are actually trying to incorporate Gregorian chant – though it be the equivalent of a “street urchin’s clothes” – into the music selections at mass should persevere. Ignorant and inadequate as we are, we need to begin somewhere.



Sheesh, I need to get some sleep. I’m getting punchy.

God bless all y’all.

 

[adowcday]

If you want to be traditional sing the proper antiphons in their chant form and feature a hymn to suit the season or feast. If you want to be contemporary and cutting edge, then sing the proper antiphons still using the same chant form. Chant, properly sung with some zest will present the roots of rock-and-roll’s modal motifs and jazz’s harmonies.

Wow! I’ve heard some heartfelt and enthusiastic promotion of chant but I’ve never heard chant sung “with some zest” as “contemporary and cutting edge” or as presenting the roots of rock and roll and jazz. I think that chant is lovely when done well, but I think that it’s attraction is, in main part, because it is anything but contemporary and cutting edge.

 

[DaveBj]

Ugh – yesterday we had the song I love to hate: “'Tis the Gift to be Simple”. Not a single mention of any deity, let alone Jesus, and all the “turning, turning” in the chorus is a reference to Shaker “liturgical dance,” the circle-dance that was part of their worship ritual. Oh, well, one for thing for me to offer up.