Is Mozart, the Freemason "Offlimits" for Traditional Catholics?

[Jason_Hurd]

I’ve been away from the forums, so once again I apologize for posting on a long thread without checking every post, but I have two degrees in classical music, and Mozart never considered himself, nor should he be considered by others, as anything but a faithful Catholic. He became a Mason along with many other extremely Catholic Austrian countrymen before it was clearly prohibited from Rome. I do not understand the reasons, which seem foolish to modern observers, but he cannot be blamed in a moral sense for his decision, nor is he in any sense off limits to Catholic listeners, who would simply be out of their minds to ignore so great and Catholic an artist for so slight a reason.

An excellent post, with which I agree. I also have two degrees in music and, having made a special study of Mozart’s music in the context of his life and times, can assure everyone here that his membership in a Masonic lodge was one of the most unimportant things about him. He and a fellow lodge member, Emanuel Schikaneder, even parodied the rituals of Freemasonry in their opera The Magic Flute, evidence that they did not really take it seriously. Far better for us to focus on Mozart’s many settings of the Mass and Catholic prayers, which are beautiful and demonstrate his God-given genius for composition. By the same token, the important thing about Bach’s music is not his Lutheran beliefs, but his Christian beliefs in the wider sense. It would be a tragedy to deprive oneself of the glory of Bach’s music out of a misguided attempt to literally be ‘more Catholic than the Pope’; as others here have pointed out, our current Holy Father is a devoted admirer of the music of Mozart, and I would imagine that of Bach as well.

 

[St_Isidore]

Their music? Mozart’s works werent propaganda for the Freemasons, and listening to his pieces doesnt make one a Freemason either.

True, but that does not make it right either. Look good Caesar, I merely pointed out what Benedict XVI and JP2 quoted. If a Freemason or the sect of Freemasonry is anti-Christian, are their works Christian? I am asking not implying.

For Example, Mozart’s work was an extension of himself, correct?
I guess if you are correct we can listen to John Lennon’s imagine (but definitely not limited to), which expresses Imagine a World without religion. His music is great but the lyrics will not have any bearing on anyone (?). This of course is false. The point is John Lennon shall not sway my Catholicism nor yours I am sure. But what of the millions who may imagine a world without religion?

I am not saying that Mozart has inflicted world damage but needless to say if Mozart’s Music is genius, maybe one may equate genius or affection for Mozart’s masonic ways as well. I am not saying this has happened to large degree but are you saying that Mozart’s music is not masonic? Why?

I think that Benedict XVI and JP2 have given enough for you to use your good judgement.

BTW, speaking of Cistine Chapel and all (which is more Greek than Christian and plays no role in the Church’s Narrative), I guess you are right otherwise we would have to remove the obelisk within the spoked wheel in St. Peter’s Square.

 

[St_Isidore]

An excellent post, with which I agree. I also have two degrees in music and, having made a special study of Mozart’s music in the context of his life and times, can assure everyone here that his membership in a Masonic lodge was one of the most unimportant things about him. He and a fellow lodge member, Emanuel Schikaneder, even parodied the rituals of Freemasonry in their opera The Magic Flute, evidence that they did not really take it seriously. Far better for us to focus on Mozart’s many settings of the Mass and Catholic prayers, which are beautiful and demonstrate his God-given genius for composition. By the same token, the important thing about Bach’s music is not his Lutheran beliefs, but his Christian beliefs in the wider sense. It would be a tragedy to deprive oneself of the glory of Bach’s music out of a misguided attempt to literally be ‘more Catholic than the Pope’; as others here have pointed out, our current Holy Father is a devoted admirer of the music of Mozart, and I would imagine that of Bach as well.

I was just participating in the thread as are you (As you know what the topic of this thread is). So could you comment on what Benedict XVI and John Paul II meant in posts #29-#30?

 

[Jennifer_J]

I was just participating in the thread as are you (As you know what the topic of this thread is). So could you comment on what Benedict XVI and John Paul II meant in posts #29-#30?

Did they say, “Don’t listen to Mozart because he was a mason” in that statement? or are they saying, “You can’t be Catholic and JOIN the masons. Being an actual MEMBER of the masons is against the whole Church and what she teaches”. It seems to me it’s the later. There is a distinction…

Jennifer

 

[Jason_Hurd]

I was just participating in the thread as are you (As you know what the topic of this thread is). So could you comment on what Benedict XVI and John Paul II meant in posts #29-#30?

I will say this much: as evidenced in several of his surviving letters to friends and family, Mozart was a devout Catholic who strove to avoid ‘giving scandal’ in his personal activities. He was most emphatically NOT a devout Freemason. It is possible, especially when young(he was in his early thirties at the time)to join a group without fully realising what they espouse or what the ramifications might be. Lucille Ball joined the Communist Party as a young person but later renounced it; she had not fully known what they were about when she joined. Mozart seems to have regarded the lodge primarily as a place to make business contacts; a place wherein ‘to network’, as we would say today. He was in dire financial straits and was constantly on the lookout for a secure position, which he was denied right up until the end. As other posters have pointed out, there was controversy in the eighteenth century over exactly what the Masons were about, and they had not yet been officially condemned by Rome. To take the pronouncements of our Popes and apply them retroactively to persons who were not even alive when they were made is tantamount to saying that George Washington should be stripped of his honors because he owned slaves, or that children should not be allowed to attend The Nutcracker at Christmas time because Tchaikovsky was a homosexual. We cannot go back and apply our present-day strictures to figures of the past. Refusing to listen to Mozart’s music because one feels he may not be on the side of the angels is(forgive me for saying it)scrupulosity of the most self-damaging sort. Please study a bit about Mozart’s life and motives before depriving yourself of a God-sent fount of refreshment.

 

[St_Isidore]

Did they say, “Don’t listen to Mozart because he was a mason” in that statement? or are they saying, “You can’t be Catholic and JOIN the masons. Being an actual MEMBER of the masons is against the whole Church and what she teaches”. It seems to me it’s the later. There is a distinction…

Jennifer

By your distinction we can listen to some heavy metal music, who are of the occult of Satan, because we like it and and in no way contribute/sanction to the occult. Is this the same? If not clarify.

 

[St_Isidore]

I will say this much: as evidenced in several of his surviving letters to friends and family, Mozart was a devout Catholic who strove to avoid ‘giving scandal’ in his personal activities. He was most emphatically NOT a devout Freemason. It is possible, especially when young(he was in his early thirties at the time)to join a group without fully realising what they espouse or what the ramifications might be. Lucille Ball joined the Communist Party as a young person but later renounced it; she had not fully known what they were about when she joined. Mozart seems to have regarded the lodge primarily as a place to make business contacts; a place wherein ‘to network’, as we would say today. He was in dire financial straits and was constantly on the lookout for a secure position, which he was denied right up until the end. As other posters have pointed out, there was controversy in the eighteenth century over exactly what the Masons were about, and they had not yet been officially condemned by Rome. To take the pronouncements of our Popes and apply them retroactively to persons who were not even alive when they were made is tantamount to saying that George Washington should be stripped of his honors because he owned slaves, or that children should not be allowed to attend The Nutcracker at Christmas time because Tchaikovsky was a homosexual. We cannot go back and apply our present-day strictures to figures of the past. Refusing to listen to Mozart’s music because one feels he may not be on the side of the angels is(forgive me for saying it)scrupulosity of the most self-damaging sort. Please study a bit about Mozart’s life and motives before depriving yourself of a God-sent fount of refreshment.

Reread the posts especially check the links, freemasonry has always been anti-Christian. .Catholicism and Freemasonry are therefore essentially opposed…
…opposing Masonic claim must ultimately derive from a perception of God that diametrically opposes the Church’s faith…
…The Masonic “God” is an <idol.>…

Mozart was a devout Catholic

This is in contradiction. One cannot be a devout Catholic and be a freemason. This is an oxymoron.

 

[St_Isidore]

I will say this much: as evidenced in several of his surviving letters to friends and family, Mozart was a devout Catholic who strove to avoid ‘giving scandal’ in his personal activities. He was most emphatically NOT a devout Freemason. It is possible, especially when young(he was in his early thirties at the time)to join a group without fully realising what they espouse or what the ramifications might be. Lucille Ball joined the Communist Party as a young person but later renounced it; she had not fully known what they were about when she joined. Mozart seems to have regarded the lodge primarily as a place to make business contacts; a place wherein ‘to network’, as we would say today. He was in dire financial straits and was constantly on the lookout for a secure position, which he was denied right up until the end. As other posters have pointed out, there was controversy in the eighteenth century over exactly what the Masons were about, and they had not yet been officially condemned by Rome. To take the pronouncements of our Popes and apply them retroactively to persons who were not even alive when they were made is tantamount to saying that George Washington should be stripped of his honors because he owned slaves, or that children should not be allowed to attend The Nutcracker at Christmas time because Tchaikovsky was a homosexual. We cannot go back and apply our present-day strictures to figures of the past. Refusing to listen to Mozart’s music because one feels he may not be on the side of the angels is(forgive me for saying it)scrupulosity of the most self-damaging sort. Please study a bit about Mozart’s life and motives before depriving yourself of a God-sent fount of refreshment.

Reread the posts especially check the links #29-30, freemasonry has always been anti-Christian.
Also:The action of the Church is summed up in the papal pronouncements against Freemasonry since 1738, 2 of the most important of which are within Mozart’s time:

* **Clement XII, Constitution "In Eminenti", 28 April, 1738;**
* **Benedict XIV, "Providas", 18 May, 1751; **

newadvent.org/cathen/02432a.htm
newadvent.org/cathen/04030a.htm
HENCE, it is NOT RETROACTIVE,

.Catholicism and Freemasonry are therefore essentially opposed…
…opposing Masonic claim must ultimately derive from a perception of God that diametrically opposes the Church’s faith…
…The Masonic “God” is an <idol.>…

Mozart was a devout Catholic and a freemason

This is in contradiction. One cannot be a devout Catholic and be a freemason. This is an oxymoron.

 

[Jason_Hurd]

Reread the posts especially check the links #29-30, freemasonry has always been anti-Christian. .Catholicism and Freemasonry are therefore essentially opposed…
…opposing Masonic claim must ultimately derive from a perception of God that diametrically opposes the Church’s faith…
…The Masonic “God” is an <idol.>…

This is in contradiction. One cannot be a devout Catholic and be a freemason. This is an oxymoron.

I did go back and reread the posts in question before I wrote my preceding post. I am afraid you may be misunderstanding what I am trying to say. In my opinion, Mozart was a Freemason in name only. He did not subscribe to their worldview, their societal view or their religious view(or lack thereof). He seems to have viewed his membership in the lodge rather as an opportunity to learn about job openings in Vienna and to make contacts with members who could help him in his career. He was most certainly a devout Catholic who would never have done anything against the church. I repeat my opinion that it is no way against Catholic teaching to listen to and enjoy the works of Mozart and Bach, and that attempts to make them seem anti-Catholic are narrow-minded and scrupulous in the extreme. Please avail yourself of some knowledge of these men’s life and thought before writing them off as servants of the Enemy.

 

[Sarabande]

I’ve been away from the forums, so once again I apologize for posting on a long thread without checking every post, but I have two degrees in classical music, and Mozart never considered himself, nor should he be considered by others, as anything but a faithful Catholic. He became a Mason along with many other extremely Catholic Austrian countrymen before it was clearly prohibited from Rome. I do not understand the reasons, which seem foolish to modern observers, but he cannot be blamed in a moral sense for his decision, nor is he in any sense off limits to Catholic listeners, who would simply be out of their minds to ignore so great and Catholic an artist for so slight a reason.

I did not read every post, but what jbuck wrote is true with everything I’ve ever read on Mozart. I am also a classical musician. Mozart always considered himself a devout Catholic first. Really, most of us don’t even think of him as a Freemason. I always think of him as a Catholic. His birth city of Salzburg is one of the most Catholic cities I ever was in. He composed his music, especially his sacred music, in praise of God and his faith - and what a glorious, brilliant gift God bestowed upon him. And as jbuck mentioned, many devout Catholic men joined the Freemasons during that time before it was prohibited by the Vatican. I read that many did it for job connections during that time. It was sort of like how non-Christians would convert to Christianity so that they could give their sons better job opportunities in the world, such as what Felix Mendelssohn’s family did when he was a child. They were originally Jewish and converted to Lutheranism. Based on what I’ve read on Mozart, I do not believe he would have become a Mason had Rome at that time specifically prohibited it.

 

[St_Isidore]

I did go back and reread the posts in question before I wrote my preceding post. I am afraid you may be misunderstanding what I am trying to say. In my opinion, Mozart was a Freemason in name only. He did not subscribe to their worldview, their societal view or their religious view(or lack thereof). He seems to have viewed his membership in the lodge rather as an opportunity to learn about job openings in Vienna and to make contacts with members who could help him in his career. He was most certainly a devout Catholic who would never have done anything against the church. I repeat my opinion that it is no way against Catholic teaching to listen to and enjoy the works of Mozart and Bach, and that attempts to make them seem anti-Catholic are narrow-minded and scrupulous in the extreme. Please avail yourself of some knowledge of these men’s life and thought before writing them off as servants of the Enemy.

In my opinion, Mozart was a Freemason in name only.

Which devout Catholic would allow himself to be tagged in name only as a freemason? A devout Catholic would disengage himself from this sect. And mistake not, it is a sect.

I repeat my opinion that it is no way against Catholic teaching

This is your opinion, and you are entitled to it. To apply your logic: In like manner If a Catholic Likes the heavy metal music by Black Sabbath, can she/he listen to that also, since she is still Catholic?

 

[Sarabande]

An excellent post, with which I agree. I also have two degrees in music and, having made a special study of Mozart’s music in the context of his life and times, can assure everyone here that his membership in a Masonic lodge was one of the most unimportant things about him. He and a fellow lodge member, Emanuel Schikaneder, even parodied the rituals of Freemasonry in their opera The Magic Flute, evidence that they did not really take it seriously. Far better for us to focus on Mozart’s many settings of the Mass and Catholic prayers, which are beautiful and demonstrate his God-given genius for composition. By the same token, the important thing about Bach’s music is not his Lutheran beliefs, but his Christian beliefs in the wider sense. It would be a tragedy to deprive oneself of the glory of Bach’s music out of a misguided attempt to literally be ‘more Catholic than the Pope’; as others here have pointed out, our current Holy Father is a devoted admirer of the music of Mozart, and I would imagine that of Bach as well.

Exactly… totally agree. I was going to mention “The Magic Flute” until I read your post. In regards to Bach: My husband’s composition teacher, who is absolutely brilliant and is one of the most “Catholic” people I know, usually doesn’t like to have non-Catholic composers performed during mass. But Bach is definitely an exception.

 

[Sarabande]

Which devout Catholic would allow himself to be tagged in name only as a freemason? A devout Catholic would disengage himself from this sect. And mistake not, it is a sect.
This is your opinion, and you are entitled to it. To apply your logic: In like manner If a Catholic Likes the heavy metal music by Black Sabbath, can she/he listen to that also, since she is still Catholic?

I think you missed the point that during Mozart’s time, it wasn’t clearly prohibited to become a Freemason. It definitely is now. Knowing about Mozart and how other devout Catholics of that time actually joined the Freemasons, makes me believe that had this been clearly prohibited by Rome during that time, they would not have joined.

 

[St_Isidore]

FROM PAPAL ENCYCLICALS:

papalencyclicals.net/Clem12/c15inemengl.htm

IN EMINENTI

ON FREEMASONRY

PAPAL BULL OF POPE CLEMENT XII
April 28, 1738

…Thus these aforesaid Societies or Conventicles have caused in the minds of the faithful the greatest suspicion, and all prudent and upright men have passed the same judgment on them as being depraved and perverted. For if they were not doing evil they would not have so great a hatred of the light. Indeed, this rumor has grown to such proportions that in several countries these societies have been forbidden by the civil authorities as being against the public security, and for some time past have appeared to be prudently eliminated.

see:papalencyclicals.net/Clem12/c15inemengl.htm
for full Papal Bull

 

[Jason_Hurd]

Which devout Catholic would allow himself to be tagged in name only as a freemason? A devout Catholic would disengage himself from this sect. And mistake not, it is a sect.
This is your opinion, and you are entitled to it. To apply your logic: In like manner If a Catholic Likes the heavy metal music by Black Sabbath, can she/he listen to that also, since she is still Catholic?

Why not? A strong unwavering faith in Christ and His promises will not be swayed by anything, least of all by a rather silly set of grown men playing garish, out-of-tune instruments. I begin to suspect that the motive of all this fault-finding is not so much to guide the faithful as much as it is a desire to hold oneself up as a holy example, and I find that tiresome. If you are really concerned, why not try to discover why our current Pope has no problem listening to Mozart. Is he wrong to do so? Setting a bad example for the faithful? You have quoted him on the subject of Freemasonry; why not read a few of his quotes about Mozart? They are readily available in the news archives of the major newspapers.

 

[St_Isidore]

Why not? A strong unwavering faith in Christ and His promises will not be swayed by anything, least of all by a rather silly set of grown men playing garish, out-of-tune instruments. I begin to suspect that the motive of all this fault-finding is not so much to guide the faithful as much as it is a desire to hold oneself up as a holy example, and I find that tiresome. If you are really concerned, why not try to discover why our current Pope has no problem listening to Mozart. Is he wrong to do so? Setting a bad example for the faithful? You have quoted him on the subject of Freemasonry; why not read a few of his quotes about Mozart? They are readily available in the news archives of the major newspapers.

Black Sabbath is of the occult. Your words have spoken.
You contradict all of the following:
* Clement XII, Constitution “In Eminenti”, 28 April, 1738;
* Benedict XIV, “Providas”, 18 May, 1751;
* Pius VII, “Ecclesiam”, 13 September, 1821;
* Leo XII, “Quo graviora”, 13 March, 1825;
* Pius VIII, Encyclical “Traditi”, 21 May, 1829;
* Gregory XVI, “Mirari”, 15 August, 1832;
* Pius IX, Encyclical “Qui pluribus”, 9 November, 1846;
* Pius IX, Allocution “Quibus quantisque malis”, 20 April, 1849;
* Pius IX, Encyclical “Quanta cura”, 8 December, 1864;
* Pius IX, Allocution “Multiplices inter”, 25 September, 1865;
* Pius IX, Constitution “Apostolicæ Sedis”, 12 October, 1869;
* Pius IX, Encyclical “Etsi multa”, 21 November, 1873;
* Leo XIII, Encyclical “Humanum genus”, 20 April, 1884;
* Leo XIII, “Præclara”, 20 June, 1894;
* Leo XIII, “Annum ingressi”, 18 March, 1902 (against Italian Freemasonry);
* Leo XIII, Encyclical “Etsí nos”, 15 February, 1882;
* Leo XIII, “Ab Apostolici”, 15 October, 1890.

 

[Sarabande]

FROM THE VATICAN WEBSITE:

papalencyclicals.net/Clem12/c15inemengl.htm

IN EMINENTI

ON FREEMASONRY

PAPAL BULL OF POPE CLEMENT XII
April 28, 1738

…Thus these aforesaid Societies or Conventicles have caused in the minds of the faithful the greatest suspicion, and all prudent and upright men have passed the same judgment on them as being depraved and perverted. For if they were not doing evil they would not have so great a hatred of the light. Indeed, this rumor has grown to such proportions that in several countries these societies have been forbidden by the civil authorities as being against the public security, and for some time past have appeared to be prudently eliminated.

see:papalencyclicals.net/Clem12/c15inemengl.htm
for full Papal Bull

Yes… but even still during this century there was a lot of controversy regarding this. It was not clear to many at that point, and obviously Mozart and many of the Catholics who were Freemasons during that time were not excommunicated. Why? Because it still apparently wasn’t clearly stated. Otherwise, his Bishop in Salzburg (who didn’t have much love for Mozart) and the Bishop in Vienna would have done much to get him excommunicated. Those who do know much about Mozart’s life and faith agree that his devotion as a Catholic and his faith in God was what drove his life. I just finished reading a biography on him. Towards the end of his life, things were starting to get hotly debated regarding the Freemasons. It’s one of the reasons why he collaborated to compose “The Magic Flute” - a farce and commentary on society like almost all of his operas.

 

[Sarabande]

FROM THE VATICAN WEBSITE:

papalencyclicals.net/Clem12/c15inemengl.htm

IN EMINENTI

ON FREEMASONRY

PAPAL BULL OF POPE CLEMENT XII
April 28, 1738

…Thus these aforesaid Societies or Conventicles have caused in the minds of the faithful the greatest suspicion, and all prudent and upright men have passed the same judgment on them as being depraved and perverted. For if they were not doing evil they would not have so great a hatred of the light. Indeed, this rumor has grown to such proportions that in several countries these societies have been forbidden by the civil authorities as being against the public security, and for some time past have appeared to be prudently eliminated.

see:papalencyclicals.net/Clem12/c15inemengl.htm
for full Papal Bull

Yes… but even still during this century there was a lot of controversy regarding this. It was not clear to many at that point, and obviously Mozart and many of the Catholics who were Freemasons during that time were not excommunicated. Why? Because it still apparently wasn’t clearly stated. Otherwise, his Bishop in Salzburg (who didn’t have much love for Mozart) and the Bishop in Vienna would have done much to get him excommunicated. Those who do know much about Mozart’s life and faith agree that his devotion as a Catholic and his faith in God was what drove his life. I just finished reading a biography on him. Towards the end of his life, things were just starting to get hotly debated regarding the Freemasons. This wasn’t until the late 1780s early 1790s. So even if this was written in 1738, things weren’t taken into account until close to the end of the 18th cenutry. It’s one of the reasons why he collaborated to compose “The Magic Flute” - a farce and commentary on society like almost all of his operas.

 

[Lance]

This thread has denigrated into an argument over Freemasonry. No one including you St Isidore can show me one thing in the Catechism or papal documents that forbids one from listening to Mozart. If you don’t want to listen to him don’t listen but just because you are being closed minded about it don’t try to deprive the rest of us the enjoyment of his music.

 

[ThomasMore1535]

Mozart’s music should be examined on the merits, regardless of whether he was a freemason.

Anyone who listens to his music would be lying if they did not admit that it is all Catholic in the best sense of the word. The quality of his music has nothing to do him being a freemason.

Certainly one cannot be a Catholic and a freemason at the same time, but the fact is that Mozart produced some of the finest music of all time. To say that it is bad because its author was a freemason is simply an ad hominem attack.

Otherwise, we should also disgard Plato and Aristotle’s philsophical works because they were pagans.