Is Muhammad foretold in the Bible?

[TonyBS]

It id too long to post here but here is a link to an article from Answering Muslims answeringmuslims.com/2015/12/does-bible-predict-coming-of-muhammad.html that I think put the question to rest.

Really!

This link will show that that approach is flawed

aish.com/jw/s/48892792.html

One has to do a Just search by themselves

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[friardchips]

One has to determine why God and Evil Exists and how it is connected to Gods Bounty of Free Will for themselves.

As Muhammad is also mentioned in the Bible, one has to consider why it is so and in doing so reconsider the source of and what is Evil.

God Bless and Regards Tony

Hi. You didn’t counter my arguments as to why your theories are obsolete…again?!

Also, can you write the areas - keeping it very specific - from any links rather than just posting link URLs that are only random to the thread attendees (?) This way it keeps the thread moving along fluidly.

 

[friardchips]

It id too long to post here but here is a link to an article from Answering Muslims answeringmuslims.com/2015/12/does-bible-predict-coming-of-muhammad.html that I think put the question to rest.

Hi. To be fair to the other poster, it might be better to quote from the link as to why it refutes his ideas. Thanks.

 

[TonyBS]

Hi. You didn’t counter my arguments as to why your theories are obsolete…again?!

Also, can you write the areas - keeping it very specific - from any links rather than just posting link URLs that are only random to the thread attendees (?) This way it keeps the thread moving along fluidly.

This comment is why there is no further discussion needed. You made your point and I have put in bold the part that closed discussion

"Now either you didn’t answer because you didn’t have an answer yet want to continue arguing an unprovable point without having to face the uncomfortable truth that these notions are inaccurate, or wrong, or you don’t understand my reasoning.

I am happy for you to consider all this is so.

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[friardchips]

This comment is why there is no further discussion needed. You made your point and I have put in bold the part that closed discussion

Good evening. A reasonable discussion begins when the theory itself is based on a reasonably sound foundation and when both parties are open to their theories being disputed or reasonably analyzed.

I am happy for you to consider all this is so.

God Bless and Regards Tony

Honestly, there is nothing to consider. The OT and the NT has enough to consider for many lifetimes without hand-selected figures and dates being used in accordance with theories from people with no authority on these matters from the 1800s.

Our Lord said that it is not for us “to know times or seasons” and so if people were to really care about the content of Scripture then they wouldn’t theorise about dates and times in the first place. So I don’t buy into any type of prophecy unless it is vetted and okayed by the Magisterium. And I’m not going to encourage a road that is not healthy for you.

Best wishes.

 

[Servant19]

But, even if explored, it doesn’t figure p).

Hence, why ‘false prophets’ were mentioned in the NT - taking Bible details and bringing false teaching based on them.

Not saying that the poster is a false teacher, probably just inspired by something and wants to share it, but this freewill to be inspired by something doesn’t make exploration of said-point valid after being disproven.

The proof of falsity has been explained. Partly recognisable because the theory is founded on probability (not the correct term but you hopefully get what I mean). A bit like playing with dice and gambling.

What is the false teaching that has been brought?

What is the gamble?

Why doesn’t it figure even if explored?

.

 

[friardchips]

What is the false teaching that has been brought?

What is the gamble?

Why doesn’t it figure even if explored?

Hi. A one-sided discussion is not exploration. Various counter-arguments have been posted and ignored. This is not exploration.

My final post on the matter was the previous one.

Thanks.

 

[friardchips]

I have heard this, particularly in the Song of Songs.

So, in simple answer to the OP: no absolutely not, in the Song of Songs.

And he was not mentioned as a holy prophet anywhere in the Bible either. If he had been, he would have been named.

 

[Servant19]

Hi. A one-sided discussion is not exploration. Various counter-arguments have been posted and ignored. This is not exploration.

My final post on the matter was the previous one.

Thanks.

But that’s your discussion with Tony.

You responded to my post, and I asked you questions about it. I don’t understand how I’m being one-sided?

If you could please clarify…

.

 

[friardchips]

But that’s your discussion with Tony.

You responded to my post, and I asked you questions about it. I don’t understand how I’m being one-sided?

If you could please clarify…

.

Hi. I have already answered both you and Tony. And my posts to Tony also can apply to you if that helps. I tend to read most of the posts in a thread before posting unless the thread is say ten pages long or something then I might skip to the latest couple of pages and post.

I just read one source that even questions whether the Koran was “direct from heaven, or…a product of its time and its geographical setting?”

catholicherald.co.uk/commentandblogs/2011/07/21/the-bbcs-groundbreaking-series-on-muhammad-leaves-open-some-startling-incoherences/

Why would I want to consider a theory of hand-picked dates from the Bible made to tie in with fictional writing centuries later?

Furthermore, to apply historical dates and attempting to make them prophetical is simply gambling with the truth. (In answer to your question). As I said before, one can take any date from history and apply Biblical meaning to it basing it on certain variables. So to try and do this is gambling with truth, like playing dice. It contains no meaning or relevance. It has not real foundation and is a waste of time.

Concentrate on what you do have. And build from there. Not from what isn’t there.

All the best to you in your spiritual journey,

F.C

 

[friardchips]

…just to add, that I don’t really think asking questions that can’t be answered with any serious weight, due to a complete lack of (serious) implicit or explicit detail initially, is doing either Christians or Muslims any favours. Prophecy-making is about as helpful as conspiracy theories, and far from bringing people together in faith, through such a lack of care and consideration for all religions concerned, only goes to cause further chaos, discontent, miseducation and division. :sad_yes:

My: :twocents:

:

 

[ericc]

Link to full explanation on Revelation 11; reference.bahai.org/en/t/ab/SAQ/saq-11.html.

Can you provide more details on this portion:

In the beginning of the seventh century after Christ, when Jerusalem was conquered, the Holy of Holies was outwardly preserved—that is to say, the house which Solomon built; but outside the Holy of Holies the outer court was taken and given to the Gentiles. “And the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months”—that is to say, the Gentiles shall govern and control Jerusalem forty and two months, signifying twelve hundred and sixty days; and as each day signifies a year, by this reckoning it becomes twelve hundred and sixty years, which is the duration of the cycle of the Qur’án. For in the texts of the Holy Book, each day is a year; as it is said in the fourth chapter of Ezekiel, verse 6: “Thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year.”
This prophesies the duration of the Dispensation of Islám when Jerusalem was trodden under foot, which means that it lost its glory—but the Holy of Holies was preserved, guarded and respected—until the year 1260. This twelve hundred and sixty years is a prophecy of the manifestation of the Báb, the “Gate” of Bahá’u’lláh, which took place in the year 1260 of the Hejira of Muḥammad, and as the period of twelve hundred and sixty years has expired, Jerusalem, the Holy City, is now beginning to become prosperous, populous and flourishing. Anyone 47 who saw Jerusalem sixty years ago, and who sees it now, will recognize how populous and flourishing it has become, and how it is again honored.

Is it saying that the conquest of Jerusalem would be overtaken by the Gentiles for 1260 years? Which year does the counting of 1260 years start? It says beginning of the 7th century. Would that be 622AD ,the same date as the year of the Hejira or some other date? Jerusalem has been conquered many many times. I need to get the years right since some of the historical events don’t seem to match and I need to confirm against history books.

May I confirm that the 1260 years in Rev 11 calculation always refer to the lunar years with 354 days per year.? You seem to switch between lunar and sun calendars and I am getting confused.

 

[Servant19]

Why would I want to consider a theory of hand-picked dates from the Bible made to tie in with fictional writing centuries later?

Furthermore, to apply historical dates and attempting to make them prophetical is simply gambling with the truth. (In answer to your question). As I said before, one can take any date from history and apply Biblical meaning to it basing it on certain variables. So to try and do this is gambling with truth, like playing dice. It contains no meaning or relevance. It has not real foundation and is a waste of time.

Concentrate on what you do have. And build from there. Not from what isn’t there.

All the best to you in your spiritual journey,

F.C

Thankyou FC

I have taken the liberty to highlight some aspects of your post and the perspective you are presenting.

Isn’t the prophecies of the Messiah also “hand-picked” from an Old Testament source and applied centuries later?

The whole point of prophecy is that “at the time of revelation” one does not really know, or fully understand. If that were the case, ALL Jews would be Christian today.

The point of prophecy is to explore and dig deeper into matters which relate to the heart (which is the tabernacle of the Divine in all of us) and then when that is satisfied, prophecy provides the intellect with confirmation of what the heart is feeling comforted by.

This is why I suggested you look at the fruits. The year 1260 refers to Baha’u’llah. One cannot say no to the 1260 unless one studies the fruits of Baha’u’llah’s Revelation, THEN the 1260 becomes relevant. Until that point, I agree with you, the 1260 is simply good maths to many observers

God be with you

.

 

[Peter_Plato]

Until that point, I agree with you, the 1260 is simply good maths to many observers

Well, to be honest, even calling it “simply good maths” would be a stretch, even if we did allow rounding arbitrarily as a “good maths” strategy.

 

[TonyBS]

Can you provide more details on this portion:

In the beginning of the seventh century after Christ, when Jerusalem was conquered, the Holy of Holies was outwardly preserved—that is to say, the house which Solomon built; but outside the Holy of Holies the outer court was taken and given to the Gentiles. “And the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months”—that is to say, the Gentiles shall govern and control Jerusalem forty and two months, signifying twelve hundred and sixty days; and as each day signifies a year, by this reckoning it becomes twelve hundred and sixty years, which is the duration of the cycle of the Qur’án. For in the texts of the Holy Book, each day is a year; as it is said in the fourth chapter of Ezekiel, verse 6: “Thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year.”
This prophesies the duration of the Dispensation of Islám when Jerusalem was trodden under foot, which means that it lost its glory—but the Holy of Holies was preserved, guarded and respected—until the year 1260. This twelve hundred and sixty years is a prophecy of the manifestation of the Báb, the “Gate” of Bahá’u’lláh, which took place in the year 1260 of the Hejira of Muḥammad, and as the period of twelve hundred and sixty years has expired, Jerusalem, the Holy City, is now beginning to become prosperous, populous and flourishing. Anyone 47 who saw Jerusalem sixty years ago, and who sees it now, will recognize how populous and flourishing it has become, and how it is again honored.

Is it saying that the conquest of Jerusalem would be overtaken by the Gentiles for 1260 years? Which year does the counting of 1260 years start? It says beginning of the 7th century. Would that be 622AD ,the same date as the year of the Hejira or some other date? Jerusalem has been conquered many many times. I need to get the years right since some of the historical events don’t seem to match and I need to confirm against history books.

May I confirm that the 1260 years in Rev 11 calculation always refer to the lunar years with 354 days per year.? You seem to switch between lunar and sun calendars and I am getting confused.

Yes The year 1260 AH is “After Hejira” and yes that is Would that be 622AD.

The switch between 1260AH and 1844 AD is because they are the same Dates.

The Date of 1844 was arrived at by using the 2300 days of Daniel 8:14 with the commandment to restore and rebuild Jerusalem in 457 B.C, one reference is William Miller for this. We know that using the commandment to restore and rebuild Jerusalem in 457 B.C also proves the event of Christ - This is an independent discussion that includes reference to 1844 and comes to 1844 from another direction - prophecymadeeasy.com/chapter09.htm

Not sure if this covers what you were looking for?

Regards Tony

 

[TonyBS]

Hi. A one-sided discussion is not exploration. Various counter-arguments have been posted and ignored. This is not exploration.

My final post on the matter was the previous one.

Thanks.

“My final post on the matter was the previous one”. “Honestly, there is nothing to consider”.

I agreed with you and your final statement above confirms your point that it was “A one-sided discussion and was not exploration”.

That is why I am happy to leave it there. Of course will go with specific questions from others which we have not already covered.

God bless and Regards Tony

 

[TonyBS]

Well, to be honest, even calling it “simply good maths” would be a stretch, even if we did allow rounding arbitrarily as a “good maths” strategy.

The link I posted above from a difference source tells you how great the Bible is, how it is 100% accurate because you can Prove the Message of Christ from the book of Daniel.

It then continues to show how it all concludes with this statement

“The year 1844, however, came and went and Jesus did not come to the earth in flaming fire. God did not cleanse the earth, thought to be God’s sanctuary, with fire in 1844 as many thought He would do. Many of these individuals rechecked the prophecy. They came to the conclusion that they had interpreted the prophetic time correctly but had not understood the true Biblical definition of the sanctuary. They searched the Bible and made new discoveries”.

This is what most concluded. They did not know 1844 was also 1260, this article still does not know that 1844 was 1260 and thus has not tied the1260 years of Muhammad to Revelation as well.

Now people do know, will they look at this different?

Can one not see you do not have to mention the Bab or Baha’u’llah to get these dates, they were already laid out. It is just a Fact of History as this is when this religion did start and a claim was made, which in turn brought to end the Religion of Muhammad after1260 years, the same way Christianity concluded Judaism.

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[Servant19]

Well, to be honest, even calling it “simply good maths” would be a stretch, even if we did allow rounding arbitrarily as a “good maths” strategy.

I would humbly disagree. It is well worth studying these prophecies. They are either a remarkable coincidence, or there is Truth in them.

I have a 3 volume book on the subject, it is a vast subject. Written by Hugh Motlagh, professor emeritus at Central Michigan University. It’s far from a stretch, but it requires study.

Here’s a link to the books:
amazon.com/Shall-Come-Again-Vol-Prophecies/dp/0937661163/ref=la_B001KCHBTA_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1450173632&sr=1-1

.

 

[TonyBS]

I would humbly disagree. It is well worth studying these prophecies. They are either a remarkable coincidence, or there is Truth in them.

I have a 3 volume book on the subject, it is a vast subject. Written by Hugh Motlagh, professor emeritus at Central Michigan University. It’s far from a stretch, but it requires study.

Here’s a link to the books:
amazon.com/Shall-Come-Again-Vol-Prophecies/dp/0937661163/ref=la_B001KCHBTA_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1450173632&sr=1-1 .

The interesting thing is that the 1260 Prophesy can also be found in Zoroastrian and Islamic teachings as well.

Thus it is well worth taking the time to look at what it could mean.

Regards Tony

 

[rnmvrck]

I have studied Islam since 1995. I do not wish to offend anyone, but here are some of my notes. These are my factual conclusions which I can provide references of credible scholars who did research over the last century.

Muhammed is not anywhere in the Christian bible. This belief is just a myth that the Muslims would like you to believe to make their religion more palatable. Islam is a false religion based upon their god, Allah, which was the greatest of 365 other pagan gods at the time of Muhammed. Allah comes from the god Sin, “The Controller of the Night,” and had the crescent moon as his emblem, and the lunar-based calendar, which became the primary religious symbols of Islam, and was worshiped in Arabia as AI-Ilah. See Nabonidus and the Babylonian ruler who made the Babylonian pagan gods acceptable to the Arabians who esteemed the “moon god” and made Mecca the center of all pagan religions of Arabia. . AI-Ilah, the Moon God, was the “Lord of the Ka’aba” (“cube”) which was the center of pagan worship, ruling over 360 idols. Lucrative trade routes resulted. The Ka’aba black cube in Mecca is of course the center of Islamic worship today. Islam is a previously heathen religion modified into a monotheistic form by discarding all the other pagan gods except for Al-Ilah. Islamic pagan rites are still practiced in Mecca today (i.e., pray to direction of their gods, circling the Ka’aba 7 times, kissing it, and running to the Wadi Mina to throw stones, and so on). There is overwhelming evidence that Muhammad constructed his religion and the Quran from pre-existing material in Arabian culture. The Quraysh tribe (Muhammad’s tribe ) was previously devoted to Allah, the moon god. Muhammad’s father was Abd-Allah. His Uncle, Obied-Allah. His mother, Aminah, was known to have been involved in the occult. Muhammad’s tribe wanted Mecca due to the location of lucative trade routes.

Actually, Allah = AI-Ilah. Arabic for “the god.” pre-Islamic name, corresponding to the Babylonian Bel. Other names were “The Moon-god”, “crescent moon”.

Islam incorporates beliefs in jinn’s ( which are genies, fairies); in spells, magic stones, fetishes; and animistic beliefs (spirits living in inanimate objects). See: Suras 55; 72; 113, 114. Such beliefs are contrary to Biblical injunctions found for example in Deut. 4:19; 17:3; Job 31:26-28. Penalties: Deut. 17:6; 2 Ki 23:5.
The Quran is an amalgam of Hinduism, Buddhism, Mythraism, Greek mystery religions, as well as elements from Judaism and Christianity.
The Quran is not free of error, contains contradictions, and has the order confused. Disagrees with itself (6 days and 8 days – Sura 7:51, 10:3, Sura 41 claims 8 days) and the bible on the creation in Genesis. Has over 100 aberrations especially concerning Abraham.

Jesus is on every page of the Old testament. A central theme of the entire Biblical panorama is the actual presentation of the Coming One, the central person of all history whom the Hebrews call the Messiah: “The volume of the book is written of me” (Psalm 40:7, also quoted in Hebrews 10:7); “Search the Scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me” (John 5:39). His story is a love story written in blood on a wooden cross that was erected in Judea about two thousand years ago. His crucifixion wasn’t a tragedy; it was an achievement! It is ludicrous to think that Muhammed is on any page of the Christian Bible as a “foretold” prophet or messenger.

In reference to Revelation 11, the chapter is about the 2 witnesses that come to prophesize for 1260 days or 42 months, or times, time, and one half time, or 40 months plus 2 months, or 3-1/2 years, of the middle of the 70th week, or the middle of the week. The Holy Spirit could not have done anymore to document throughout the Bible in many places that this is a 1260 day period of time. It is a faulty application of hermeneutics to equate one year for one day in the context of this chapter or the other references where this 3-1/2 period of time is used.

The identity of 2 witnesses is not known but for many reasons, theologians believe that it will be Elijah and Moses. I the last book of the Old Testament, Malachi 4-5:

“Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:…”