Considering the filoque, posted a recent thread, and that the Orthodox Church has 4 Apostolic Patriarchs, and the Catholic Church has only 1, the Roman Pontiff.
Just my two cents: it’s not a numbers game. Remember that in the Old Testament, when the united Kingdom of Israel split in two, the one that remained faithful - the Kingdom of Judah - only had two of the twelve tribes of Israel.
I know I shouild not be getting sucked into stuff like this, but I wan’t clarification please.
Also just my two cents: I think you’re absolutely right to be asking these questions.
Know, however, that these are very complex issues, as I’m sure you can see…
Is the Orthodox Church the true Church?
The Orthodox Church is comprised of true churches. By our Catholic definition, a Christian community is validly called a “church” if it is organized around a valid bishop who - along with his priests - celebrates the Eucharistic Liturgy and other Sacraments. As such, an Orthodox diocese is a valid church.
I know that’s not what you meant, though: you were asking which communion constitutes the true church of Christ as a whole. I and other practicing Catholics believe that the Church of Christ, taken in the sense of a visible institution, subsists in the Catholic Church. Orthodox churches are valid churches but are not in communion with the Roman pontiff, which makes them imperfectly united to the Catholic Church.
Is the Catholic Church only 1000 years old?
The Catholic Church is 2000 years old. The Orthodox Church is 2000 years old. For the first thousand years we were the same church. Thus neither of us magically popped into existence at the dawn of the second millennium. Rather, the two halves of the Catholic Church simply drifted further and further apart until we realized we were in schism from each other. It’s a sad situation, to be sure.
How isn’t the OC not true?
I believe they do have the truth. The only thing keeping them from being a full part of the Catholic Church is that their churches are in schism from the Church of Rome, “the principal Church, in which sacerdotal unity has its source” (St. Cyprian).
The eastern Orthodox have been around since c. AD 33 just like we have - remember, we were all part of the same church back then, so neither side can say, “you popped into existence in 1054.” That’s not how it works.
If you want to get technical, neither Rome nor Constantinople existed as an arm of the Christian church when it first began. It was just the Church in Jerusalem.
Also, a side question. Was Pope Shenouda III(God rest his soul) a real pope with infallible edicts such as the Roman Pontiff?
God rest his soul indeed!
“Pope” is just an affectionate nickname for “father.” It’s not necessarily exclusively synonymous with the supreme and universal office of the bishop of Rome.
Two bishops/patriarchs were commonly called “pope”: the patriarch of Rome and the patriarch of Alexandria.
Pope Shenouda III was “a real pope” in the sense that he is a valid bishop and was truly a patriarch of Alexandria. Unlike the pope of Rome, however, he had no ability to exercise the Church’s infallibility personally or make universally binding decisions - not even the Oriental Orthodox (his church) would claim that about him.
Within Orthodox Christianity all Bishops are seen as the successors of all the Apostles.
And Catholic Christianity too.
How many different Orthodox Churches are there? Also what are the churches that used to be Orthodox but came back to the Catholic Church but still retain their own liturgies?
If you check the wikipedia pages on the “Eastern Orthodox Church,” “Oriental Orthodoxy,” and the “Eastern Catholic Churches” you will find in each a list of the churches that comprise each communion: as others have said, 14 or 15 in the eastern Orthodox Church, 6 in the Oriental Orthodox Church, and 23 in the Catholic Church.
…not some super-bishop above correction, as Hormisdas would have had it.
I don’t think the Formula of Hormisdas conceives of the pope of Rome as a “super-bishop above correction.” It simply asserts that the See of Rome is the Apostolic See
“in which the whole, true, and perfect security of the Christian religion resides.”
That is not the same thing as saying that the pope is above correction. Plenty of western post-schism saints, like St. Catherine of Siena, would say otherwise!
I guess it has no relevance for this post. Sorry. It is just all the bickering and lack of recognizing other Christians as brothers and sisters seems to be a problem in evangelizing the world. I’ve had a problem with this and I need prayer, lots of it!!
I respectfully suggest that getting into the gritty details and debating with specificity - as Cavaradossi and Marduk have been doing - is not necessarily a breach of charity but is actually intellectually necessary to work through these issues.
But yes, I certainly understand how disheartening our disagreements can be. I need prayer too, Lego! We all do, I think.
