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Peter_J
Guest
To me, this forum can sometimes be a bit of a free-for-all. But then again, if someone comes here expecting it to be like a college theology class … well, I guess they should go to college.
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Cavaradossi
Guest
One step ahead of you! Minus the theology part.To me, this forum can sometimes be a bit of a free-for-all. But then again, if someone comes here expecting it to be like a college theology class … well, I guess they should go to college.
Opera on the other hand…
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Art321
Guest
Thank you Alex. I too find your posts to be very informative and do wish that you stay for future discussions. Although as you and I know at times this forum can be a bit unpredictable.I keep promising myself to leave this forum - but how can I really with wonderful people like you and Art?
Alex
I guess that’s how it is.
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Cavaradossi
Guest
One step ahead of you! Minus the theology part.To me, this forum can sometimes be a bit of a free-for-all. But then again, if someone comes here expecting it to be like a college theology class … well, I guess they should go to college.
Opera on the other hand…
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CopticChristian
Guest
Al,
Every Church has a pastor. It matters not where you go to Church. If you go to any Church there will be a Pastor. I like to think of the Pope as the Pastor. The Church that he pastors is just bigger than all the others and it chimes in with the first among equals.
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DaisySibyl
Guest
I don’t think so. I mean, each culture and each nation with its own religion considers their religion to the the true church.
wedding dresses
wedding dresses
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Fone_Bone_2001
Guest
You’re studying opera? That sounds pretty hardcore!One step ahead of you! Minus the theology part.
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Padraig1972
Guest
I am so in doubt these days. Which church is the true one? Why do i feel dragged to the russian-orthodox church (i have never been to one or attended liturgy there or even speak russian). Yet i feel drawn to it for some reason.
Actually, i feel like two persons are dragging in me, one to the west and one to the east.
Does orthodox pray the rosary? Does orthodox christians look at people like me (catholic that looking for an old and more or less untouched liturgy) and old-true traditions like confused souls or second rate)?
I got so many thoughts going, it affects my prayerlife and i feel like “outside” myself when attending mass. And i can only imagine what my pastor/parish priest would react like if i told him about my confused feelings these days…
Please pray for, inside…every cell is crying and asking what God wants me to do…
Actually, i feel like two persons are dragging in me, one to the west and one to the east.
Does orthodox pray the rosary? Does orthodox christians look at people like me (catholic that looking for an old and more or less untouched liturgy) and old-true traditions like confused souls or second rate)?
I got so many thoughts going, it affects my prayerlife and i feel like “outside” myself when attending mass. And i can only imagine what my pastor/parish priest would react like if i told him about my confused feelings these days…
Please pray for, inside…every cell is crying and asking what God wants me to do…
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John_of_Patmos
Guest
Have faith in Peter and his successor!
I offered a prayer for you.
I offered a prayer for you.
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John_of_Patmos
Guest
Don’t be afraid to talk to your priest. He might be able to help.
You know what, I’ll help you out a bit. I was being tempted with Orthodoxy awhile ago. I talked to a very nice RC priest about it. Some of what he told me:
About Papal Supremecy
The Church has a very balanced approach to this: the pope is the “final word,” in juridical and administrative decisions; but he is also just a bishop, the bishop of Rome. The charism of infallibility is rooted in the unity of the bishops, manifested then in the voice of the bishop of Rome. There are very fine but important theological distinctions here, but don’t think that there is a monarchistic kind of working to the theology: that is a bit more administrative. Only in rare circumstances does the pope have to correct the wayward. The New Testament of course points to Peter, the rock upon which the Church is built, the visible head of the Body of Christ, His Vicar on earth.
Finally, all of the bishops are servants of the truth: they are entrusted with it and hand it on to others. They don’t change it, they just teach it and interpret it authoritatively and authentically.
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The pope is superior to any other bishop in only one way: his ability to invoke the charism of infallibility contrary to discordant bishops (even when the discordance represents a numerical majority, as it did in the Arian heresy).
There is a balance, as I tried to explain in my previous email, in the Church’s understanding of the collegiality of all bishops and the hierarchy of the Church’s administrative structure, which is infused with the grace of governance even in its bureaucratic structure. The idea of an autocephalous church is not helpful, because Christ is the head of the body, the Church. The pope is his vicar, his visible representative, on earth.
Also, when you think about the unity (oneness, being a mark of the Church) of the Church, and Orthodoxy, look at, for example, the OCA. You have some who recognize autocephaly, The Ecumenical Patriarch doesn’t.
A really great book is “The Russian Church and the Papacy”, published by Catholic Answers, it helped me.
Very few Orthodox pray the Rosary.
Peace
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Padraig1972
Guest
The thing is this:
I really appreciate the advices, they do help me.
- I always seek to be as near the truth as possible
- I always think like: how did they pray in the beginning, what was mass back then like?
I really appreciate the advices, they do help me.
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Vico
Guest
Anxiety is a cloud of thoughts regarding a fear. Can you identify your fears? Often the faithful have had their fears reduced or eliminated. You can draw nearer to God even though you do not which way to go, and in fact your doubts may make you cling to God even more, for He is the one constant.
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Padraig1972
Guest
Yes, i can identify them and they are:
I think the Novo Ordo mass lacks the traditions and deep roots and the traditional latin mass has been cut down by 30 mins to make it more “presentable” to people
These kinds of things does bother me and all these debates lately here in CAF about orthodoxy has raised questions inside of me.
- Loosing the friends i have in my parish now
- Have to start all over again, learning new prayers, a new way to pray
- Meeting the issues that i do respect Peters chair and the rosary
- Learning how to understand a new liturgy
- Have to learn a new language and having to get into a new environment
I think the Novo Ordo mass lacks the traditions and deep roots and the traditional latin mass has been cut down by 30 mins to make it more “presentable” to people
These kinds of things does bother me and all these debates lately here in CAF about orthodoxy has raised questions inside of me.
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Peter_J
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Interesting …
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Padraig1972
Guest
Probably not and i am so sorry to bother you people with my sorrows-nonesense
I do apologize.
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John_of_Patmos
Guest
No, it’s ok, really! We are here to listen. I believe that we may have a reform of the Novus Ordo eventually, please stay Catholic! You may consider “upping the ante” on your Latin spirituality, like reciting the Divine Office in Latin, other latin prayers and devotions, or watching Latin Masses on the internet if you can’t get to one, but who am I?
. Like I said before, your priest might be able to help. Maybe you could ask him about doing a Latin Mass?
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Padraig1972
Guest
I think i will talk him to him about this as in a conversation and confession. Learning Latin and pray the LOTH in the old way would indeed be very nice. Offer this up, it came to my mind. I should offer it up.
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Vico
Guest
Those are significant and it makes me feel sad, because I understand how it is to loose friends, as anyone knows that has moved a long distance. The language can be a difficult problem, but particularly because the cultural perspective is part of it, including colloquialisms. Probably learning a new liturgy and a new public form of prayer is the easiest on the list, because in about a year you would likely be proficient enough if you follow along consistently.
I understand why the current ordinary form of the Mass is less attractive than the 1962 form. I have participated in morning communion Masses which are very short indeed. As to tradition, the ordinary form is more like the Ancient Roman Mass, much simpler. The Mass experienced much change over the years, especially since Pope Gregory I (590-604).
The traditions were Carthage, Rome, Antioch, Edessa, and Alexandria.
Ancient Roman led to the Roman, Braga, Mozarabic, Carthusan, etc.
Carthage + Ancient Roman led to the Ambrosian.
Edessa led to Chaldean and Maronite
Antioch led to all the others.
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twf
Guest
Yes, the Mass of Paul VI did “restore” a number of ancient elements, some of which the East should appreciate - for example, the inclusion of a more explicit epiclesis in the three “new” Eucharistic Prayers and greater lay participation (“dialogue masses” are now the norm). In addition, many of the “new” texts were drawn from ancient Western liturgies. That being said, I’ve also struggled with many of the changes and have often found myself asking “why?”. The reality is, the Ordinary Form of the Roman Rite (Mass of Paul VI / Novus Ordo), as typically celebrated in the majority of our parishes, seems, on the surface, a far cry from the Extraordinary Form of the Roman Rite (the Tridentine or Gregorian mass - pre-Vatican II). When properly celebrated as the Council Fathers intended, however, we see a very different picture…and I think anyone who has been blessed to worship at a particularly traditional parish or witnessed a mass celebrated by our Holy Father would agree. Many elements of the Tridentine mass that appear to have disappeared in most parishes today remain valid options for the Ordinary Form - they have simply fallen into disuse. If one compares an Ordinary Form mass chanted in Latin, ad orientem, using Eucharistic Prayer I, incense, asperges (the sprinkling rite), the contrast with the Tridentine Mass becomes much less striking. While many of the propers (readings and prayers) for each day have drastically changed, the basic structure of both forms of the Roman Rite remain the same - in Latin the Kyrie (in this case Greek), Gloria, Sanctus, and Agnus Dei, fundamental prayers of the mass, remain the same…and Eucharistic Prayer I, which is still “preferred” by the Church for solemn occasions, is, of course, the Roman Canon of the Tridentine Mass.
At my cathedral the ordinary form mass is chanted (mix of English and Latin), incense is heavily used, the music is reverent, traditional, and inspiring, the faithful are given the option of receiving Our Lord kneeling at the altar rail, and Holy Communion is distributed almost exclusively by priests. There are a few parishes throughout the diocese where the pastor requires the faithful to receive Holy Communion in the traditional manner - kneeling at the altar rail - where reverent, chanted, traditional masses are the norm. I honestly believe that we are slowly seeing, in the words of our Holy Father, a “reform of the reform”…it may take decades, but we will undo the damage inflicted by liberals and heretics and restore the Roman Rite to its former glory. The Holy Father is leading by example.
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Peter_J
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Hi Padraig. You seem to be having second thoughts about posting on this thread. I would suggest sticking with it a while longer, even if you sometimes feel like you’re just “bothering people” for nothing. Who knows, maybe later you’ll look back on it and say “That was a good conversation.”
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