Is our free choice real

[BobCatholic]

The personal relationship is prayer.

Prayer is a monologue to me. When I’m getting “no” as the answer to good requests, that is proof God does not want me.

I want a steady job with benefits so I can provide for my family. Answer: no.
I want my son healed of his disease. Answer no.
I want to get closer to God and have a personal relationship. Answer no.

When God says no, that is something outside of his will, and thus those things are evil.

If you have been baptized and received sanctifying grace, then the only way you can possibly go to hell is by your own free will choice. Yes, that can happen in the last breath.

I don’t want to make that choice, I want to reject the other guy (devil) and not go to hell.

However, I am imperfect. And thus because of my imperfections, my free will is reduced, either significantly or fully. Without God’s help, I don’t stand a chance. So I ask God for help.

He says no. Proof: I am not perfect as required by God.

Game over.

Hope = 0

 

[Vico]

Prayer is a monologue to me. When I’m getting “no” as the answer to good requests, that is proof God does not want me.

I want a steady job with benefits so I can provide for my family. Answer: no.
I want my son healed of his disease. Answer no.
I want to get closer to God and have a personal relationship. Answer no.

When God says no, that is something outside of his will, and thus those things are evil.

I don’t want to make that choice, I want to reject the other guy (devil) and not go to hell.

However, I am imperfect. And thus because of my imperfections, my free will is reduced, either significantly or fully. Without God’s help, I don’t stand a chance. So I ask God for help.

He says no. Proof: I am not perfect as required by God.

Game over.

Hope = 0

You say that “God says no” yet you call it a monologue. That implies that you are not speaking.

You said “my free will is reduced, either significantly or fully”. A person that has received sanctifying grace does not then go to hell as a result of anything less than free will. You have not proved that God does not want you in heaven.

Keep in mind that God does not require perfection to receive sanctifying grace, even for mortal sin. See Catechism (on contrition):

1453 The contrition called “imperfect” (or “attrition”) is also a gift of God, a prompting of the Holy Spirit. It is born of the consideration of sin’s ugliness or the fear of eternal damnation and the other penalties threatening the sinner (contrition of fear). Such a stirring of conscience can initiate an interior process which, under the prompting of grace, will be brought to completion by sacramental absolution. By itself however, **imperfect contrition **cannot obtain the forgiveness of grave sins, but it disposes one to obtain forgiveness in the sacrament of Penance.

Imperfect contrition remits even grave sin through the sacrament of anointing of the sick if a person is unable to go to confession,

 

[BobCatholic]

You say that “God says no” yet you call it a monologue. That implies that you are not speaking.

I’m doing the monologue, I’m the one speaking. God does not talk in words.

I don’t get the things I ask for. God clearly said no. Not in words, but by actions.

I’m clearly asking for evil things.

Thus, prayer is a monologue to me.

You said “my free will is reduced, either significantly or fully”. A person that has received sanctifying grace does not then go to hell as a result of anything less than free will. You have not proved that God does not want you in heaven.

Then how do I get around the “I do not know you” worry? I don’t have a personal relationship with God and have no way to get one. I am only permitted a corporate relationship with God.

Remember, they did things, performed mighty deeds yet were called evil by Christ.

Keep in mind that God does not require perfection to receive sanctifying grace, even for mortal sin. See Catechism (on contrition):

True, but it is required to be in heaven.

 

[Vico]

I’m doing the monologue, I’m the one speaking. God does not talk in words.

I don’t get the things I ask for. God clearly said no. Not in words, but by actions.

I’m clearly asking for evil things.

Thus, prayer is a monologue to me.

Then how do I get around the “I do not know you” worry? I don’t have a personal relationship with God and have no way to get one. I am only permitted a corporate relationship with God.

Remember, they did things, performed mighty deeds yet were called evil by Christ.

True, but it is required to be in heaven.

A personal relationship is doing your part, prayer. So if your are not getting what you want does not prove it is wrong. There are other reasons for not getting what is asked for.

 

[BobCatholic]

A personal relationship is doing your part, prayer. So if your are not getting what you want does not prove it is wrong.

If God says no, he is clearly disappointed in me and thinks badly of me, and thus rejects me. This is proof that I don’t have a personal relationship.

There are other reasons for not getting what is asked for.

Things like a steady job and healing my son of his disease are outside of God’s will. Therefore they are evil. That’s the only reason. I clearly am asking for evil things.

 

[Vico]

If God says no, he is clearly disappointed in me and thinks badly of me, and thus rejects me. This is proof that I don’t have a personal relationship.

Things like a steady job and healing my son of his disease are outside of God’s will. Therefore they are evil. That’s the only reason. I clearly am asking for evil things.

That is contrary to Catholic teaching, because God does not reject anyone but does all from love. A person may reject God, however, and suffer on account of it. The Jews thought similarly. They expected the Messiah to restore their political power, but rather he came to free them from sin. Also in the Gospel we read of the man born blind and people asked Jesus why he was blind from birth, was it something he or his parents did. Jesus replied neither, but to make the works of God more manifest. Jesus then healed him. God does not follow man’s time table for when events should occur such as physical healing or political victory, etc. Sometimes there is chastisement and sometimes the person must learn a particular lesson, but always our out of love, and a method that a man may not comprehend.

 

[BobCatholic]

That is contrary to Catholic teaching, because God does not reject anyone but does all from love.

If he doesn’t reject anyone, explain people in hell. And don’t tell me people reject God with sufficient knowledge that it is a mortal sin.

If God didn’t reject me → why. won’t. he. talk. to. me?

Also, how is allowing my son to continue suffering his disease loving? How does not providing me with a steady job, loving? How is not talking to me loving? How is continually saying no to my requests loving?

If it is loving, therefore my requests for a steady job are evil. My requests to heal my son of his disease are evil. My requests to have financial help are evil.

God does not follow man’s time table for when events should occur such as physical healing or political victory, etc.

God can wait forever to do something. I can’t.
A steady job does not matter in the afterlife, only here.
Healing of disease does not matter in the afterlife, only here.
Healing of financial difficulties does not matter in the afterlife, only here.

I only have one life here on earth, then an uncertain afterlife at best.

It is like God cares about the spiritual so much, he does not care one iota about temporal.

Sometimes there is chastisement and sometimes the person must learn a particular lesson, but always our out of love, and a method that a man may not comprehend.

Chastisement and punishments are not done out of love, they are done to hurt.

It is a message: I am too stupid to learn from words, so BAM here comes the punishment to get it through my thick skull. Instead of fixing my imperfections, he chooses to punish me instead. How is this loving?

Loving is fixing the imperfections.

 

[Vico]

If he doesn’t reject anyone, explain people in hell. And don’t tell me people reject God with sufficient knowledge that it is a mortal sin.

If God didn’t reject me → why. won’t. he. talk. to. me?

Also, how is allowing my son to continue suffering his disease loving? How does not providing me with a steady job, loving? How is not talking to me loving? How is continually saying no to my requests loving?

If it is loving, therefore my requests for a steady job are evil. My requests to heal my son of his disease are evil. My requests to have financial help are evil.

God can wait forever to do something. I can’t.
A steady job does not matter in the afterlife, only here.
Healing of disease does not matter in the afterlife, only here.
Healing of financial difficulties does not matter in the afterlife, only here.

I only have one life here on earth, then an uncertain afterlife at best.

It is like God cares about the spiritual so much, he does not care one iota about temporal.

Chastisement and punishments are not done out of love, they are done to hurt.

It is a message: I am too stupid to learn from words, so BAM here comes the punishment to get it through my thick skull. Instead of fixing my imperfections, he chooses to punish me instead. How is this loving?

Loving is fixing the imperfections.

Yes, “Loving is fixing the imperfections” and for that reason we must fix our imperfection of loving the world more than God – which requires that we do our part (pure heart with proper thought and behavior) aided by God’s gifts of grace. God does not miraculously and completely reverse the weakened human nature but rather gives what is sufficient to attain eternal joy. His plan allows something greater than that.

Baltimore Catechism – Q. 150. Why did God make you? A. God made me to know Him, to love Him, and to serve Him in this world, and to be happy with Him forever in the next.

The Church give answers for all those issues in the Catechism of the Catholic Church;

418 As a result of original sin, human nature is weakened in its powers, subject to ignorance, suffering and the domination of death, and inclined to sin (this inclination is called “concupiscence”).

272 Faith in God the Father Almighty can be put to the test by the experience of evil and suffering. God can sometimes seem to be absent and incapable of stopping evil. But in the most mysterious way God the Father has revealed his almighty power in the voluntary humiliation and Resurrection of his Son, by which he conquered evil. …

278 If we do not believe that God’s love is almighty, how can we believe that the Father could create us, the Son redeem us and the Holy Spirit sanctify us?

1033 We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. …

To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God’s merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called “hell.”

1037 God predestines no one to go to hell; 620 for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. …

 

[BobCatholic]

Yes, “Loving is fixing the imperfections” and for that reason we must fix our imperfection of loving the world more than God – which requires that we do our part (pure heart with proper thought and behavior) aided by God’s gifts of grace.

And if I’m not improving because I’m stuck, God is not helping.

God does not miraculously and completely reverse the weakened human nature but rather gives what is sufficient to attain eternal joy.

God allows horrific falls but does not cure the injuries. Ten seconds could cause years of horrific suffering and pain to reverse. Why won’t he bother with helping?

Baltimore Catechism – Q. 150. Why did God make you? A. God made me to know Him, to love Him, and to serve Him in this world, and to be happy with Him forever in the next.

You will note the absense of “being happy with him here.” We are not to be happy on this planet. We must carry the cross.

272 Faith in God the Father Almighty can be put to the test by the experience of evil and suffering.

I understand the problem of evil. What I don’t understand is the problem of good. Why does God abundantly give good things to other people while all my requests for good things are rejected? Why am I passed by?

1033 We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. …

If I am imperfect, and filled with failure and utter desolation, how can I freely choose to love a God who ignores me and passes me by? Love is a 2 way street.

 

[Vico]

And if I’m not improving because I’m stuck, God is not helping.

God allows horrific falls but does not cure the injuries. Ten seconds could cause years of horrific suffering and pain to reverse. Why won’t he bother with helping?

You will note the absense of “being happy with him here.” We are not to be happy on this planet. We must carry the cross.

I understand the problem of evil. What I don’t understand is the problem of good. Why does God abundantly give good things to other people while all my requests for good things are rejected? Why am I passed by?

If I am imperfect, and filled with failure and utter desolation, how can I freely choose to love a God who ignores me and passes me by? Love is a 2 way street.

God is giving His part. You can see where this is true from Catholic dogma:
God gives all the just sufficient grace (gratia proxime vel remote sufliciens) for tile observation of the Divine Commandments. (De fide.) Second Council of Orange 529, Council of Trent
God gives all the faithful who are sinners sufficient grace (gratia saltem remote sufficiens) for conversion. (Sent. communis.) Lateran Council IV 1215
God gives all innocent unbelievers (infideles negativi) sufficient grace to achieve eternal salvation. (Sent. certa.) Pope Alexander VIII, 1690, condemnation of the Jansenistic propositions.

Once a person has chosen mortal sin, then there will not be improvement without repentance.

You can freely choose to love a God because God gave you free will.

All the suffering that God allows us to experience in this life medicinal.

All of the following are Catholic dogma:

• God is absolutely perfect. (De fide.)
• God is actually infinite in every perfection. (De fide.)
• God is absolutely simple. (De fide.)
• There is only One God. (De fide.)
• The One God is, in the ontological sense, The True God. (De fide.)
• God possesses an infinite power of cognition. (De fide.)
• God is absolute Veracity. (De fide.)
• God is absolutely faithful. (De fide.)
• God is absolute ontological Goodness in Himself and in relation to others. (De fide.)
• God is absolute Moral Goodness or Holiness. (De fide.)
• God is absolute Benignity. (De fide.)
• God is absolute Beauty.
• God is absolutely immutable. (De fide.)
• God is eternal. (De fide.)
• God is immense or absolutely immeasurable. (De fide.)
• God is everywhere present in created space. (De fide.)

 

[AgnosticBoy]

Can the choice between ecstasy (Heaven) and torment (Hell) be considered a real free choice. Is it not more “do it my way or else”.
I hope this is the right forum.
Hope all is well for everyone.

This is a tricky question because free-will is tied to morality in that there is a moral law by which all of our choices are judged by. The issue here may not be a matter of choice but rather one of not liking the consequences of your choice. Another issue might be some not liking the moral standards (atheism being a sin). Would you be thinking the same thing if a robber chooses to rob someone, but then complains of no free-will because his choice landed him in prison. The robber might even ask if his choice is really free or a matter of coercion since his choice leads to jail. I think many might even say that they’d rather the robber be deprived of his choice to rob in the first place.

Either way, I disagree with your point if you intend to use it as an objection against God because free-will is supposed to be acted on in the context of morality. Without it, the robber is just as justified in complaining about not having a real choice (i.e. he’s being coerced) just because of the penalties of robbing people.

 

[BobCatholic]

God is giving His part.

God only cares about spiritual things to the utter exclusion of temporal things. That’s how important God thinks the spiritual things are.

God does not care about the temporal.

You can freely choose to love a God because God gave you free will.

How can I love someone who I don’t know and doesn’t want to know me?

That requires a personal relationship, which I can’t get. I can only get a corporate relationship.

I want to love God more, but it is impossible in my current state. I hate the devil and reject him, but I’m rejected by God, so I’m stuck.

All the suffering that God allows us to experience in this life medicinal.

Not true. If that were true, nobody would need healing.

Now if only God would stop holding us temporally responsible for the sins of our ancestors, that would be a great thing.

 

[Vico]

God only cares about spiritual things to the utter exclusion of temporal things. That’s how important God thinks the spiritual things are.

How can I love someone who I don’t know and doesn’t want to know me?

Not true. If that were true, nobody would need healing.

Now if only God would stop holding us temporally responsible for the sins of our ancestors, that would be a great thing.

Medicinal in the spiritual sense. We are not really temporally responsible for the sins of our ancestors, that is only an analogy.

 

[BobCatholic]

Medicinal in the spiritual sense. We are not really temporally responsible for the sins of our ancestors, that is only an analogy.

I know we are not responsible for the sins of our ancestors (Deut 24). But we are held temporally responsible for their sins.

 

[Vico]

I know we are not responsible for the sins of our ancestors (Deut 24). But we are held temporally responsible for their sins.

One that is not responsible is not held to be responsible.

The Catechism uses temporal punishment for personal sin, but the consequences of the original sin (original sin being the actual personal sin of Adam and Eve), because they lost gifts that ostensibly mankind would inherit (but of course, God knew that would not happen). Therefore we read in the Catechism of this analogical sin. (See 404 below.) But since we did not sin we are not responsible for what Adam and Eve did, which would required a personal act of will.

404 … It is a sin which will be transmitted by propagation to all mankind, that is, by the transmission of a human nature deprived of original holiness and justice. And that is why original sin is called “sin” only in an analogical sense: it is a sin “contracted” and not “committed” - a state and not an act.

1734 Freedom makes man responsible for his acts to the extent that they are voluntary.

Modern Catholic Dictionary, Punishment
…
Christianity, however, believes that because human beings are free they are responsible for their misdeeds and therefore liable to punishment that gives them their just deserts. It is therefore moral to punish the guilty even if there is no hope of correcting that person or deterring others from crime.

 

[BobCatholic]

One that is not responsible is not held to be responsible.

Well, tell that to the Big Boss.

Or tell me where the next flight is to the Garden of Eden.

The Catechism uses temporal punishment for personal sin, but the consequences of the original sin (original sin being the actual personal sin of Adam and Eve), because they lost gifts that ostensibly mankind would inherit (but of course, God knew that would not happen).

A consequence is the same as a punishment when God made both happen as a result of a sin.

But since we did not sin we are not responsible for what Adam and Eve did, which would required a personal act of will.

I never said we ARE responsible.
I said we are being HELD temporally responsible.

it is a sin “contracted”

Like a disease, which is a punishment.

 

[Vico]

Well, tell that to the Big Boss.

Or tell me where the next flight is to the Garden of Eden.

A consequence is the same as a punishment when God made both happen as a result of a sin.

I never said we ARE responsible.
I said we are being HELD temporally responsible.

Like a disease, which is a punishment.

But I said: “One that is not responsible is not held to be responsible.” So you misread it it seems.
God knew that the Garden of Eden would only be for Adam and Eve, since He is omniscient. For the same reason, we are not being punished but have a human nature that suffers. They are called consequences because we have a human nature that is not elevated upon birth like Adam and Eve had, but it was never going to be ours.

 

[BobCatholic]

But I said: “One that is not responsible is not held to be responsible.” So you misread it it seems.
God knew that the Garden of Eden would only be for Adam and Eve, since He is omniscient.

Yes, He’s omniscient, but also originally planned for their children to be there.

Otherwise, he would never have given the command “be fruitful and multiply” before the fall.

God cannot be mocked, he was not giving them a decoration command. The command was in the Garden, he intended the Garden to be filled with children (as well as the rest of the earth).

For the same reason, we are not being punished but have a human nature that suffers. They are called consequences because we have a human nature that is not elevated upon birth like Adam and Eve had, but it was never going to be ours.

Consequences = punishment, they’re the same thing in this case because God had imposed both

 

[Vico]

Yes, He’s omniscient, but also originally planned for their children to be there.

Otherwise, he would never have given the command “be fruitful and multiply” before the fall.

God cannot be mocked, he was not giving them a decoration command. The command was in the Garden, he intended the Garden to be filled with children (as well as the rest of the earth).

Consequences = punishment, they’re the same thing in this case because God had imposed both

No, the Church teaches that God is pure act (actus purus) without any admixture of potentiality (actus purus sine omni permixtione potentiae). His acts are not contingent on mankind. The plan of salvation of fallen mankind was even before creation.

Adam and Eve were given a blessing not a precept.

Catechism
2331 "God is love and in himself he lives a mystery of personal loving communion. Creating the human race in his own image . . … God inscribed in the humanity of man and woman the vocation, and thus the capacity and responsibility, of love and communion."114

“God created man in his own image . . . male and female he created them”;115 He blessed them and said, “Be fruitful and multiply”;116 "When God created man, he made him in the likeness of God. Male and female he created them, and he blessed them and named them Man when they were created."117​

Haydock Commentary, Genesis 1:28

Ver. 28. Increase and multiply. This is not a precept, as some protestant controvertists would have it, but a blessing, rendering them fruitful: for God had said the same words to the fishes and birds, (ver. 22.) who were incapable of receiving a precept. (Challoner)

— Blessed them, not only with fecundity as he had done to other creatures, but also with dominion over them, and much more with innocence and abundance of both natural and supernatural gifts.

— Increase. The Hebrews understand this literally as a precept binding every man at twenty years of age (Calmet); and some of the Reformers argued hence, that Priests, &c. were bound to marry: very prudently they have not determined how soon! But the Fathers in general agree that if this were a precept with respect to Adam, for the purpose of filling the earth, it is no longer so, that end being sufficiently accomplished. Does not St. Paul wish all men to be like himself, unmarried? (1 Corinthians vii. 1, 7, 8.) (Haydock)

 

[BobCatholic]

His acts are not contingent on mankind.

Utterly false.

God’s grace is not given to those who won’t cooperate with it.
God won’t help someone who can’t or won’t cooperate with him.
God won’t save anyone without their cooperation.
God will not connect with anyone unless they go through the Dark Night of the Senses, Dark Night of the Soul and then union. Period. End of sentence.
God does not answer “yes” to prayers if we don’t do what his will is in regards to the prayer requests.

I could keep going. God’s actions ARE contingent on human actions.

Adam and Eve were given a blessing not a precept.

A blessing only if resources are given to make it happen.

Kicking them out of the Garden deprived them of most of the resources needed to make this a blessing. Now it is just a responsibility, after the fall.

— Blessed them, not only with fecundity as he had done to other creatures, but also with dominion over them, and much more with innocence and abundance of both natural and supernatural gifts.

And those like me who are suffering from infertility, are cursed by God.