Is our free choice real

[BobCatholic]

As I said Bob they did not have pride fear, etc until they sinned. But it does no good to argue with one another with this, you have to read the bible and the word of God tells you.

If they did not have those imperfections, they could not have sinned. NOT having imperfections is a grace from God. Which was denied.

With imperfections, it is only a matter of time before the buggy software crashes. The question is not IF but WHEN.

I also explained to you that we are no longer held to original sin, Jesus freed Abraham and those who were free from actual sin, and original sin was removed by the death of Christ. IF we were still held to original sin Abraham would still be waiting.

I said we are held temporally responsible for their sins.

If we are not, please tell me what time is the next flight to the Garden of Eden?

 

[Vico]

If they did not have those imperfections, they could not have sinned. NOT having imperfections is a grace from God. Which was denied.

With imperfections, it is only a matter of time before the buggy software crashes. The question is not IF but WHEN.

I said we are held temporally responsible for their sins.

If we are not, please tell me what time is the next flight to the Garden of Eden?

“Not having imperfections is a grace from God” gives an incomplete statement, because also an individual must utilize the grace. Good give the His part and we give our part. It is a dogma of faith the the supernatural grace given by God is sufficient for a person to remain free from mortal sin. So it is not inevitable that a person will fall into mortal sin – even with the imperfections.

Catechism
2013 "All Christians in any state or walk of life are called to the fullness of Christian life and to the perfection of charity."65 All are called to holiness: "Be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."66

In order to reach this perfection the faithful should use the strength dealt out to them by Christ’s gift, so that . . . doing the will of the Father in everything, they may wholeheartedly devote themselves to the glory of God and to the service of their neighbor. Thus the holiness of the People of God will grow in fruitful abundance, as is clearly shown in the history of the Church through the lives of so many saints.67​

See Romans 3:21-26

“all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God”.

Catechism

2015 The way of perfection passes by way of the Cross. There is no holiness without renunciation and spiritual battle.68 Spiritual progress entails the ascesis and mortification that gradually lead to living in the peace and joy of the Beatitudes:

He who climbs never stops going from beginning to beginning, through beginnings that have no end. He never stops desiring what he already knows.69​

vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c3a2.htm

 

[BobCatholic]

“Not having imperfections is a grace from God” gives an incomplete statement, because also an individual must utilize the grace.

If one had the grace of God that they don’t have imperfections, they do not want to sin. It is easy NOT to sin, so cooperating is not a problem.

With imperfections, it is horrendously difficult to cooperate and we are set up to fail.

Buggy software WILL crash. That’s how it works. We are that buggy software.

I see it like this. It is ridiculously easy to go to hell. Just exist. It is our default setting. If one wants to go to heaven, it takes a horrendous amount of suffering and pain, and is tremendously difficult. It is like being required to learn Calculus IV honors course to get into heaven.

The scales are way out of balance. If there is a free choice, it is almost an illusion. Almost. If we had a real choice, the scales would be closer to balance.

So it is not inevitable that a person will fall into mortal sin – even with the imperfections.

There’s a contradiction.

If one is imperfect, they don’t have sufficient grace. The imperfection is proof of insufficient grace. When one is made perfect, it is only because of the grace of God. But if one has imperfections, that’s a lack of perfection and a lack of grace.

In order to reach this perfection the faithful should use the strength dealt out to them by Christ’s gift,

And if God withholds the strength, weakness is the only result. Resistance is futile.

If God does not provide, game over.

And forgot Romans 8:23 where our bodies have not yet been redeemed. God held back, and as a result, we are imperfect and lacking in grace.

 

[Vico]

If one had the grace of God that they don’t have imperfections, they do not want to sin. It is easy NOT to sin, so cooperating is not a problem.

With imperfections, it is horrendously difficult to cooperate and we are set up to fail.

Buggy software WILL crash. That’s how it works. We are that buggy software.

I see it like this. It is ridiculously easy to go to hell. Just exist. It is our default setting. If one wants to go to heaven, it takes a horrendous amount of suffering and pain, and is tremendously difficult. It is like being required to learn Calculus IV honors course to get into heaven.

The scales are way out of balance. If there is a free choice, it is almost an illusion. Almost. If we had a real choice, the scales would be closer to balance.

There’s a contradiction.

If one is imperfect, they don’t have sufficient grace. The imperfection is proof of insufficient grace. When one is made perfect, it is only because of the grace of God. But if one has imperfections, that’s a lack of perfection and a lack of grace.

And if God withholds the strength, weakness is the only result. Resistance is futile.

If God does not provide, game over.

And forgot Romans 8:23 where our bodies have not yet been redeemed. God held back, and as a result, we are imperfect and lacking in grace.

This is not true: “The imperfection is proof of insufficient grace.”

It is not true because no human is perfect, for we all (except for Jesus Christ and the Blessed Virgin Mary) commit venial sins, even in the state of sanctifying grace. However the state of sanctifying grace is sufficient that we need never fall in mortal sin.

Lord Jesus Christ have mercy on me a sinner.

Yes, we are born without sanctifying grace for which we need baptism.

 

[BobCatholic]

This is not true: “The imperfection is proof of insufficient grace.”

Christ is perfect. Mary is perfect. Both because of the grace of God. They had sufficient grace to stay perfect.

I’m not perfect. God withheld that grace from me. I can’t stay perfect. Thus I have insufficient grace.

Thus imperfection is proof of insufficient grace.

 

[davidv]

Christ is perfect. Mary is perfect. Both because of the grace of God. They had sufficient grace to stay perfect.

I’m not perfect. God withheld that grace from me. I can’t stay perfect. Thus I have insufficient grace.

Thus imperfection is proof of insufficient grace.

God will not withhold grace from anyone. All who fall in sin do so because they do not accept the grace available to them to resist temptation.

 

[Vico]

Christ is perfect. Mary is perfect. Both because of the grace of God. They had sufficient grace to stay perfect.

I’m not perfect. God withheld that grace from me. I can’t stay perfect. Thus I have insufficient grace.

Thus imperfection is proof of insufficient grace.

Some of what you posted is in opposition the the dogmatic teaching of the Church, so you should be made aware of it.

Imperfection is not proof of insufficient grace, because even the justified sin by venial sin. The dogma pertaining to that is:

The justified person is not able for his whole life long to avoid all sins, even venial sins, without the special privilege of the grace of God. (De fide.)

The Blessed Virgin Mary had that special privilege.

If you were baptized then you received the grace of justification at that time.

More of those dogmas of faith are here:

• Baptism confers the grace of justification. (De fide.)
• Without special Divine Revelation no one can know with the certainty of faith, if he be in the state of grace. (De fide.)

The Process of Justification

• The sinner can and must prepare himself by the help of actual grace for the reception of the grace by which he is justified. (De fide.)
• The justification of an adult is not possible without Faith. (De fide.)
• Besides faith, further acts of disposition must be present. (De fide.)

These three were posted on this thread in post #171:

• The Human Will remains free under the influence of efficacious grace, which is not irresistible. (De fide.)
• There is a grace which is truly sufficient and yet remains inefficacious (gratia vere et mere sufficiens). (De fide.)
• God gives all the just sufficient grace (gratia proxime vel remote sufliciens) for the observation of the Divine Commandments. (De fide.)

 

[BobCatholic]

God will not withhold grace from anyone. All who fall in sin do so because they do not accept the grace available to them to resist temptation.

Imperfections are proof that God withheld grace. See below.

Some of what you posted is in opposition the the dogmatic teaching of the Church, so you should be made aware of it.

Imperfection is not proof of insufficient grace, because even the justified sin by venial sin. The dogma pertaining to that is:

The justified person is not able for his whole life long to avoid all sins, even venial sins, without the special privilege of the grace of God. (De fide.)

That is exactly what I said. Imperfections are proof that God has withheld grace.

WITHOUT the special the special privilege of the grace of God, the justified person is not able for his whole life long to avoid all sins, even venial sins.

Notice the key word WITHOUT. That’s my point exactly!

God withholds this special grace and people pretty much screw up. Their free choice is reduced or eliminated depending on how imperfect they are.

*]The Human Will remains free under the influence of efficacious grace, which is not irresistible. (De fide.)

The human will, subject to imperfections, is not free.

I see a double standard.

God wants us to give up everything and withhold nothing from him. But he withholds from us the grace we need to make him pleased.

It is setting us up to fail.

 

[Vico]

Imperfections are proof that God withheld grace. See below.

That is exactly what I said. Imperfections are proof that God has withheld grace.

WITHOUT the special the special privilege of the grace of God, the justified person is not able for his whole life long to avoid all sins, even venial sins.

Notice the key word WITHOUT. That’s my point exactly!

God withholds this special grace and people pretty much screw up. Their free choice is reduced or eliminated depending on how imperfect they are.

The human will, subject to imperfections, is not free.

I see a double standard.

God wants us to give up everything and withhold nothing from him. But he withholds from us the grace we need to make him pleased.

It is setting us up to fail.

You are ignoring the other dogmas however so your conclusion is incorrect. The particular dogma is a counter to the Pelagians and there is another to counter the semi-Pelagians. The one you are not including is from the Second Council of Orange and the Council of Trent (phrasing from Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, by Ludwig Ott):

• God gives all the just sufficient grace (gratia proxime vel remote sufliciens) for the observation of the Divine Commandments. (De fide.)

That one counters the errors of Jansenius. Ludwig Ott states in the commentary that “From reason it is clear that God is obliged by His fidelity to bestow sufficient grace on the just to enable them to reach Heaven to which they have been called.”

 

[BobCatholic]

You are ignoring the other dogmas however so your conclusion is incorrect. The particular dogma is a counter to the Pelagians and there is another to counter the semi-Pelagians. The one you are not including is from the Second Council of Orange and the Council of Trent (phrasing from Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, by Ludwig Ott):

• God gives all the just sufficient grace (gratia proxime vel remote sufliciens) for the observation of the Divine Commandments. (De fide.)

That one counters the errors of Jansenius. Ludwig Ott states in the commentary that “From reason it is clear that God is obliged by His fidelity to bestow sufficient grace on the just to enable them to reach Heaven to which they have been called.”

You did not answer “what commandments”

One of them is “Be ye perfect”

As long as I am imperfect, I cannot follow that commandment. And God’s grace is not provided if I’m still imperfect.

As long as I am imperfect, that is proof that God is withholding his grace and not providing the sufficient grace to follow THAT COMMANDMENT.

So if the dogma is true (and I believe it is) then God is falling down on the job here. I want to be perfect and I ask God for that grace and he says no.

 

[Vico]

You did not answer “what commandments”

One of them is “Be ye perfect”

As long as I am imperfect, I cannot follow that commandment. And God’s grace is not provided if I’m still imperfect.

As long as I am imperfect, that is proof that God is withholding his grace and not providing the sufficient grace to follow THAT COMMANDMENT.

So if the dogma is true (and I believe it is) then God is falling down on the job here. I want to be perfect and I ask God for that grace and he says no.

The answer is all commandments that are necessary to follow to be in the state of sanctifying grace. God make that possible such that one in the state of sanctifying grace can remain in that state, whereas without sanctifying grace it would not be possible.

 

[BobCatholic]

The answer is all commandments that are necessary to follow to be in the state of sanctifying grace. God make that possible such that one in the state of sanctifying grace can remain in that state, whereas without sanctifying grace it would not be possible.

So it is not necessary to be perfect to enter heaven? I think scripture disagrees with that notion.

I wasn’t aware there were commandments (outside of the Mosaic ceremonial law) that were optional. SO when Christ said “be ye perfect as the heavenly Father is perfect” that’s optional. I can die imperfect and go directly to heaven without any purgatory, right?

Of course not.

 

[Vico]

So it is not necessary to be perfect to enter heaven? I think scripture disagrees with that notion.

I wasn’t aware there were commandments (outside of the Mosaic ceremonial law) that were optional. SO when Christ said “be ye perfect as the heavenly Father is perfect” that’s optional. I can die imperfect and go directly to heaven without any purgatory, right?

Of course not.

I did not want to start listing commandments so I included all that is necessary when I posted this:
The answer is:] all commandments that are necessary to follow to be in the state of sanctifying grace. God make that possible such that one in the state of sanctifying grace can remain in that state, whereas without sanctifying grace it would not be possible.

Perfection from venial sins is not necessary to attain the state of heaven but what is required is that one die in the state of sanctifying grace. One may need purification from the attachments acquired from all the mortal and venial sins that were committed. Purgatory is for this final purification of the elect.

Note from the Catechism that the Church has sanctity yet is imperfect.

Catechism of the Catholic Church

670 Since the Ascension God’s plan has entered into its fulfilment. We are already at “the last hour”.553 "Already the final age of the world is with us, and the renewal of the world is irrevocably under way; it is even now anticipated in a certain real way, for the Church on earth is endowed already with a sanctity that is real but imperfect."554 Christ’s kingdom already manifests its presence through the miraculous signs that attend its proclamation by the Church.555 . . . until all things are subjected to him

 

[BobCatholic]

Perfection from venial sins is not necessary to attain the state of heaven but what is required is that one die in the state of sanctifying grace.

No, that gets you into purgatory. Yes, that eventually gets into heaven.

However, Heaven requires perfection.

I’m afraid of purgatory. Deathly afraid. Not as much as hell, but definitely afraid.

 

[Vico]

No, that gets you into purgatory. Yes, that eventually gets into heaven.

However, Heaven requires perfection.

I’m afraid of purgatory. Deathly afraid. Not as much as hell, but definitely afraid.

It is possible for one to proceed immediately to heaven upon death without purgatory. No doubt you have heard of the plenary indulgence, or a person dying immediately upon baptism, or baptism of desire or baptism of blood. In those cases there is no temporal punishment that remains. There is no limit to human perfection, so it is not achieved but a process.

Catechism
1 God, infinitely perfect and blessed in himself, in a plan of sheer goodness freely created man to make him share in his own blessed life. For this reason, at every time and in every place, God draws close to man. He calls man to seek him, to know him, to love him with all his strength. He calls together all men, scattered and divided by sin, into the unity of his family, the Church. To accomplish this, when the fullness of time had come, God sent his Son as Redeemer and Saviour. In his Son and through him, he invites men to become, in the Holy Spirit, his adopted children and thus heirs of his blessed life.

2028 “All Christians . . . are called to the fullness of Christian life and to the perfection of charity” (LG 40 § 2). “Christian perfection has but one limit, that of having none” (St. Gregory of Nyssa, De vita Mos.G 44, 300D)

Baltimore Catechism

Q. 162. What is a perfection?

A. A perfection is any good quality a thing should have. A thing is perfect when it has all the good qualities it should have.

Q. 163. What is God?

A. God is a spirit infinitely perfect.

Q. 164. What do we mean when we say God is “infinitely perfect”?

A. When we say God is “infinitely perfect” we mean there is no limit or bounds to His perfection; for He possesses all good qualities in the highest possible degree and He alone is “infinitely perfect.”

 

[BobCatholic]

It is possible for one to proceed immediately to heaven upon death without purgatory. No doubt you have heard of the plenary indulgence,

A plenary indulgence requires that one have zero affection or attachment to any sin, not even venial sin. This means the person is perfect.

or a person dying immediately upon baptism, or baptism of desire or baptism of blood.

I would love to have a martyr’s death. But if that doesn’t happen, there is no way for me to go directly to heaven. Purgatory is the best I can hope for.

This makes me sad that I can’t be with God immediately after death.

 

[Vico]

A plenary indulgence requires that one have zero affection or attachment to any sin, not even venial sin. This means the person is perfect.

I would love to have a martyr’s death. But if that doesn’t happen, there is no way for me to go directly to heaven. Purgatory is the best I can hope for.

This makes me sad that I can’t be with God immediately after death.

Not it does not make the person perfect in virtue for that person can still sin again at least venially. The person is complete in a sense.

 

[BobCatholic]

Not it does not make the person perfect in virtue for that person can still sin again at least venially. The person is complete in a sense.

If one has no attachment to sin, they don’t want to sin, not even venial sins, or even minor faults. They are perfect.

That’s why a plenary indulgence is very hard (if not almost impossible) to get.

 

[Vonsalza]

Hey Vico,

As you’re a Byzantine Catholic, do you have any insights about the current Orthodox view of the purifying process of the presumably imperfect christian between the end of life and admittance into heaven?

I realize you’re not Orthodox, but I (maybe naively) assume Byz-Caths as the greatest and best bridge between the two ancient faiths.

Orthodox feel free to opine as well!

I ask because I’ve read a lot of confusing things from purportedly Orthodox writers on the topic that varies between when and where the question was being answered.

-To be fair, I’ve read a lot of confusing Catholics too.

 

[Vico]

If one has no attachment to sin, they don’t want to sin, not even venial sins, or even minor faults. They are perfect.

That’s why a plenary indulgence is very hard (if not almost impossible) to get.

One must attain final repentance. Our salvation requires continual effort and so we pray “Lord have mercy on me a sinner”.

Only those that have special graces can avoid venial sin, which is known to be true of the Blessed Virgin Mary.

Catechism
2028 “All Christians . . . are called to the fullness of Christian life and to the perfection of charity” (LG 40 § 2). “Christian perfection has but one limit, that of having none” (St. Gregory of Nyssa, De vita Mos.G 44, 300D).