Is our free choice real

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God told Adam and Eve to be “fruitful and multiply” IN THE GARDEN. Pay attention to that key part. If God did not mean for Adam and Eve’s children (hint: that’s us) to be in the Garden, then you’re accusing God of trolling Adam and Eve.

God holds us temporally responsible for the sin of our ancestors, instead of doing what he intended.

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No Bob you are the one doing the accusing not me.
No God did not intend for man to be in the Garden. Perhaps the key words are key only to you. Rather than what Scripture actually states.
The buggy software not scriptural or real.For on the sixth day God saw all that He created and it was GOOD…Genesis 1:31
God intended man to stay in the garden. Be fruitful and multiply fill the EARTH. Genesis 1:28
note the key words taken from scripture.
 
Yes, it is not a personal fault, so we are not responsible in any way for this.

But we are still temporally held responsible for their sin.

A software bug God the Great Programmer, refuses to fix.

I asked God (many times) for help to become prefect, to overcome my imperfections.

Guess what? I’m still imperfect after all these years.

I think it is safe to say he said no.

Free will is diminished or eliminated by imperfections.

God only helps if it is in his will. If it is not in his will, game over, no help.

Where was God’s help during my 3 really long unemployment stretches? Temporal punishment, no healing. I’m still unable to keep a steady job. God refused to help during those times, and still refuses to help.

To take care of the spiritual mess that Adam and Eve did. He did nothing to take care of the temporal mess - you’ll notice we are not in the Garden of Eden.
I sympathise deeply with your misfortune, having been very poor as a child and uncertain about the future even now, but your negativity about God is totally unjustified. An earthly Utopia is an infantile fantasy for which no one has ever produced a feasible blueprint. It is easy to blame God for everything but so often we take the good things of life for granted as if we have a right to them when in fact there is no reason why we should exist at all. Not one of us is entirely blameless for all the misery and suffering in the world… “Which you will cast the first stone?”
 
. . . No God did not intend for man to be in the Garden. . .
I’m going to expand on this.

Starting with the basics, the Garden is a story, a part of the Church’s traditions and teachings about who we are, our world and its Creator. It is naturally placed at the beginning the Bible, which is history described in symbolic language. Scripture is inspired by God, and reveals the Word, from the creation to His incarnation, death and resurrection, in Jesus Christ. It tells us who we are, how it is we came to be and where we are going, all in relation to God. It speaks of what happens in the intersection of the temporal with the eternal. Here, things get kind of funny. The cause need not necessarily precede the effect; they may be one and the same, or it may be at the end, pulling us forward. As a story, Genesis is historically and ontologically true. But what are we to make of it?

:twocents:

The Garden is materially this earth, in terms of the laws and constants of physics and chemistry, as well as the biology. The trees and their fruits are the gifts that come with being human: art, science, music, philosophy, the various sensual pleasures, our camaraderie, and so on. The Garden describes our relationship with the world and with God. He is to be at the Centre. The two trees that sit there can, in fact be understood as being the Word of God.

Had we chosen to not appropriate what belongs to God, in that moment we would have chosen to be Christ-like. Our will would be surrendered to God. We can still do that, but the choice that the first man made was our choice that we struggle with every day. We seek God and our own interests in defiance of His will. We were never meant to be in that original Garden state, in the sense that we were not yet formed until we chose. We could have attained the Beatific Vision at that point, but we want to do it our way.

In eating of the fruit that belongs to God, against His will and in spite of His warning, we took on the consequences. We now truly, to our core, know good and evil. In reaching out for the fruit of the wood that is ultimately the cross, we drove the nail into that hand. We wanted to be gods, thinking we can do so without God, and here we are.

But, we have Jesus and the Beatitudes. Through Him and His teachings, through the Church that He established, by the grace of the Holy Spirit, we are reconciled with God, with each other and the world. Love your neighbour as yourself and God, with all your heart, and you are in the Garden, in right relation with God. It’s a struggle, but it gets ever lighter as He bears with us the load of His yoke.

Keeping on track: free will (choice is less appropriate a word) is as real as are the consequences to what we chose. This is the Garden where we can be one with Christ.
 
Christ has conquered the world. I haven’t.
He’s the master. I"m a worthless speck of dust.

The only happiness that God guarantees is in the afterlife. That is, if one goes to heaven.

Here, we are guaranteed the cross, pain, suffering, and no happiness.
 
St. Faustina called herself “a worthless speck of dust” - I think I’m emulating someone good there by doing the same. Maybe one day if I get lucky, I’ll be promoted to “useless servant”

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For some reason i can`t find where she said that, mind showing us where you found that from her.
 
For some reason i can`t find where she said that, mind showing us where you found that from her.
I see that she wrote not worthless but wretched.

Diary of St. Maria Faustina Kowalska

1661 I spent the whole day in thanksgiving, and gratitude kept flooding my soul. O my God, how good You are, how great is Your mercy! You visit me with so many graces, me who am a most wretched speck of dust. Prostrating myself at Your feet, O Lord, I confess with a sincere heart that I have done nothing to deserve even the least of Your graces. It is in Your infinite goodness that You give Yourself to me so generously. Therefore, the greater the graces which my heart receives, the deeper it plunges itself in humility.

medjugorjemalta.blogspot.com/2014/02/continued-from-httpliturgicalyear.html
 
No Bob you are the one doing the accusing not me.
No God did not intend for man to be in the Garden. Perhaps the key words are key only to you. Rather than what Scripture actually states.
The buggy software not scriptural or real.For on the sixth day God saw all that He created and it was GOOD…Genesis 1:31
God intended man to stay in the garden. Be fruitful and multiply fill the EARTH. Genesis 1:28
note the key words taken from scripture.
The context was that the whole Earth was the Garden of Eden. A text taken out of context is a pretext. So God’s initial plan was that A&E’s kids were going to be there in the Garden. Otherwise, he would have commanded them to be fruitful and multiply AFTER getting kicked out.
I see that she wrote not worthless but wretched.

Diary of St. Maria Faustina Kowalska

1661 I spent the whole day in thanksgiving, and gratitude kept flooding my soul. O my God, how good You are, how great is Your mercy! You visit me with so many graces, me who am a most wretched speck of dust. Prostrating myself at Your feet, O Lord, I confess with a sincere heart that I have done nothing to deserve even the least of Your graces. It is in Your infinite goodness that You give Yourself to me so generously. Therefore, the greater the graces which my heart receives, the deeper it plunges itself in humility.

medjugorjemalta.blogspot.com/2014/02/continued-from-httpliturgicalyear.html
You’re right. I rechecked the PDF, and it is wretched, not worthless. So I’ll change that.
 
Interesting thread.

I’ve wondered something similar. Not so much about free-will, but about authentic salvation versus reward intention. What I mean is, it seems to me that if a person chooses to do good so that they obtain a reward or to avoid a punishment, it does not mean that the person is a good person. The person is merely looking out for their self-interest. Surely an all-knowing God who sees the intent in our hearts would see such a distinction and judge accordingly, right?

So, assuming our free-will is not an illusion, and we choose to believe in God out of a desire for eternal reward (or out of fear of eternal punishment), how does that constitute an authentic salvation?

I don’t believe that it does, at least I don’t believe the choice itself does, as the choice seems to be for selfish reasons. Even if you combine the choice with a life of dogmatic compliance and attempted holiness, I believe that if the desire for reward (or the fear of punishment) remains the primary impetus, the salvation rings hollow, and a just and all-knowing God would see that. So how can we freely and authentically choose God without factoring in said reward/punishment intention?

We must also consider the “Grace Factor”. If salvation depends on grace, and if God does not distribute grace evenly to all, or at least freely to all who request it, then how can an even authentic choice for God lead to an authentic salvation without the blessing of grace? Of course, we cannot know if God does this or not, but unless we assume that at the very least grace is an open pool for all who are thirsty to freely drink of it at any time, then there is some element of control and judgement on God’s part before the grace is even bestowed, which further brings the value and effectiveness of our “free choice” to believe in God into question.

I’m interested what all of you think about these concerns. I’m sorry if these questions have been addressed before. If they have, please feel free to point me to those threads. Also, I don’t mean to de-rail this thread, but I think these are important factors to consider when pondering free will and the choice to believe in God.
 
The above is why we need Jesus. It is difficult to overcome self-interest. Spiritual pride is a last hurdle in many authentic religious traditions.
 
How many of us are carrying our crosses after been flogged, beaten, thorns jammed into our skulls, most likely starved and thirsty. Can you understand how Jesus did this? He saw the goal line.
This is so true. Christ never had a smooth life here on this earth. He even told us, if they persecuted me they will persecute you.

This is the devils world, God saw this, and knew we needed to be saved.

But people seem to believe that can find this perfect happiness in this world, and its not going to happen. But we can find contentment in God and his mercy and Love until he calls us home to a perfect world with no suffering or sin.

Look at people with money, power, who have all of the material things in the world, this still does not make them happy. Just look at the famous people killing themselves, starving themselves, destroying themselves.

If you want happiness in this world, you can find it, if you look for it in the right places, Instead of looking at what you do not have, look what you do have.

You can go out and buy everything in this world, and it will be a temporary happiness. Or you can love and do for others and it lasts forever.

God is here is you want him, he lives in us, if we let him.
 
The context was that the whole Earth was the Garden of Eden. A text taken out of context is a pretext. So God’s initial plan was that A&E’s kids were going to be there in the Garden. Otherwise, he would have commanded them to be fruitful and multiply AFTER getting kicked out.

You’re right. I rechecked the PDF, and it is wretched, not worthless. So I’ll change that.
No Bob the whole earth is Eden… for God planted a garden in Eden.
Still doesn’t address the fact that it is written the whole earth, and not just the garden. It seems to me Bob you are putting a literal timeline on these scriptures that is not meant to be, rather the scripture is not a literal timeline but how we came to be and how our plight came to be.

Fine, what makes you a wretched speck of dust Bob?
 
No Bob the whole earth is Eden… for God planted a garden in Eden.
Still doesn’t address the fact that it is written the whole earth, and not just the garden. It seems to me Bob you are putting a literal timeline on these scriptures that is not meant to be, rather the scripture is not a literal timeline but how we came to be and how our plight came to be.
At the time God said that, Eden WAS the whole earth. After the fall, well, the whole earth became trash like it is now.
Fine, what makes you a wretched speck of dust Bob?
I tried all my life to get closer to God and it didn’t work. I only have a corporate relationship with God.
 
At the time God said that, Eden WAS the whole earth. After the fall, well, the whole earth became trash like it is now.

I tried all my life to get closer to God and it didn’t work. I only have a corporate relationship with God.
Still is Eden it may have changed but still is Eden. Again you placing a timeline that does not exist in the scripture.As it was wrote man and woman were created on the sixth day.

trying to get closer to God makes one a wretch:confused:
Having faith makes on wretched.:confused:
 
At the time God said that, Eden WAS the whole earth. After the fall, well, the whole earth became trash like it is now.

I tried all my life to get closer to God and it didn’t work. I only have a corporate relationship with God.
Eden is described as a place and it had a garden in the east. After it was created, God placed man in that garden. There are places on Earth outside of Eden and in Eden outside of the garden, of course. So man here is charged to care for the garden of Eden, but not Eden nor the entire Earth, although in Genesis 1:28 he is made with “dominion over the fish of the sea, the birds of the air, and all the living things that crawl on the earth”.

Genesis 2

8 The LORD God planted a garden in Eden, in the east, and placed there the man whom he had formed.
9 Out of the ground the LORD God made grow every tree that was delightful to look at and good for food, with the tree of life in the middle of the garden and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
10 A river rises in Eden to water the garden; beyond there it divides and becomes four branches.
11 The name of the first is the Pishon; it is the one that winds through the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold.
12 The gold of that land is good; bdellium and lapis lazuli are also there.
13 The name of the second river is the Gihon; it is the one that winds all through the land of Cush.
14 The name of the third river is the Tigris; it is the one that flows east of Asshur. The fourth river is the Euphrates.
15 The LORD God then took the man and settled him in the garden of Eden, to cultivate and care for it.
 
Still is Eden it may have changed but still is Eden. Again you placing a timeline that does not exist in the scripture.As it was wrote man and woman were created on the **sixth **day…oops should read fifth day.

trying to get closer to God makes one a wretch:confused:
Having faith makes on wretched.:confused:
 
Still is Eden it may have changed but still is Eden. Again you placing a timeline that does not exist in the scripture.As it was wrote man and woman were created on the sixth day.
Then it makes no sense that God asks them to be fruitful and multiply IN THE GARDEN yet expecting that their kids won’t be IN THE GARDEN. The context is abundantly clear. Especially since the part about filling the earth meant filling the garden as well.

OK, so maybe the Garden was part of the Earth but the Earth was just as good as the Garden before the fall. After the fall, it is the garbage place we have now.
trying to get closer to God makes one a wretch:confused:
trying to get closer to God AND FAILING makes one a wretch
Having faith makes on wretched.:confused:
I question if I have faith. I have intellectual assent and believe mentally the things, but if if I have the faith of an iota of a fraction of a mustard seed…I don’t know. Faith is a gift of God and he didn’t give it to me.
 
Then it makes no sense that God asks them to be fruitful and multiply IN THE GARDEN yet expecting that their kids won’t be IN THE GARDEN. The context is abundantly clear. Especially since the part about filling the earth meant filling the garden as well.

OK, so maybe the Garden was part of the Earth but the Earth was just as good as the Garden before the fall. After the fall, it is the garbage place we have now.

trying to get closer to God AND FAILING makes one a wretch

I question if I have faith. I have intellectual assent and believe mentally the things, but if if I have the faith of an iota of a fraction of a mustard seed…I don’t know. Faith is a gift of God and he didn’t give it to me.
well if you didn’t have faith why are you trying to get closer?
seen/heard of anybody casting trees into the sea lately?
well Bob you are the one claiming fail because the God you are trying to get closer to is not god the vending machine. i don’t think you understand what the Saint meant by saying she was wretched. She saw her own heart and the darkness that rests in mankind. For did not our Lord say to the effect that what defiles a man comes from within? We don’t see in that quote above this saint blaming God for this condition rather the saint is rejoicing in God’s grace. Which it seems you have God’s grace.
Now you are saying what God has made and said is good is garbage?
No Bob it’s not expecting, it is with a sad heart knowing they won’t be in the garden with Him.
 
I tried all my life to get closer to God and it didn’t work. I only have a corporate relationship with God.
Maybe in your mind Bob, But I have read posts that you have made about God, and you are much closer to God then you think. Actually you seem to have more knowledge of God then people who claim to have this personal relationship with him.

My Dad always told me the People who are the closest with God seem to be the most unhappy in this world.

Which makes sense because people who love God the most and pray the most struggle the most because they do not live in this world with God like that will in thenext Because this is not the world of God,

Remember if they hate you remember they hated me first. Bob my Dad said the more you Love and want to be with God the devil will want you more. Because why go after the people who hate or do not care or worship God he already has them.

It is the devil who wants to get between you and God because he knows your love for God. ANd God knows your love for him, and trusts that Love to beat the devil. God will let the Devil tempt you and test you, but remember in the end God always wins. You have to just keep trust in him no matter what. What reward would your faith be, if God gave you everything and did not test that faith. God is never late.
 
Then it makes no sense that God asks them to be fruitful and multiply IN THE GARDEN yet expecting that their kids won’t be IN THE GARDEN. The context is abundantly clear. Especially since the part about filling the earth meant filling the garden as well.

OK, so maybe the Garden was part of the Earth but the Earth was just as good as the Garden before the fall. After the fall, it is the garbage place we have now.

trying to get closer to God AND FAILING makes one a wretch

I question if I have faith. I have intellectual assent and believe mentally the things, but if if I have the faith of an iota of a fraction of a mustard seed…I don’t know. Faith is a gift of God and he didn’t give it to me.
A Catholic dogma of faith is
  • The three Divine or Theological Virtues of Faith, Hope and Charity are infused with Sanctifying grace.
It is from the Council of Trent:
In justification, man receives simultaneously with the remission of sins all the three virtues of faith, hope and charity, which are infused by Jesus Christ in him in whom He is implanted . (Denzinger, Sources of Catholic Dogma, 800)
 
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