Is our free choice real

[rinnie]

No, they were not perfect.

How does someone who has the imperfection of pride, perfect?
How does someone who is naive, be perfect?
How does someone who is stupid, be perfect?

These are the bugs in the software. The software crashed. Oops, quick, throw the computer out the window. Blame the software, not the programmer.

Yes Bob, if you look on here you will see that.

Christian Tradition teaches that they were given the gift of preternatural gifts.

The first was that had no pain in the garden of eden.
The second immortality, they had no physical death
The Third Integity disordered desires:thumbsup:
Infused Knowledge. no ignorance in matters essential for happiness.

 

[rinnie]

No, they were not perfect.

How does someone who has the imperfection of pride, perfect?
How does someone who is naive, be perfect?
How does someone who is stupid, be perfect?

These are the bugs in the software. The software crashed. Oops, quick, throw the computer out the window. Blame the software, not the programmer.

If you look on this site Bob it will explain it all to you that Adam and Eve were created perfect (without sin), That is why Mother Mary was sinless because she was saved from Original Sin (which is what Adam and Eve committed and we all were born with) but she was saved from it at the second of her conception.

We are saved from Original Sin at our Baptism, but we still have the ( desires you could say to sin, but that does not make us full of self. We are full of self when we act out on sinful desires and sin).

But if you obeying the ten commandments Bob, and going to Church, confession, praying, helping others, you are okay then bob. God wants you to enjoy life also Bob, he wants you to have happiness here. He loves you.

 

[BobCatholic]

WE ARE YES ALL CALLED TO BE SAINTS, BUT NOT A CLONE OF JESUS, JESUS IS NOT A SAINT HE IS GOD. WE WILL NEVER BE A CLONE OF GOD. BUT YES WE ARE TAUGHT TO IMITATE CHRIST IN ALL WE DO AND THINK.

We are told to imitate Christ, which means that nobody is in heaven except for Jesus. Every saint is a clone of Jesus.

GOD ASKS NO MORE THEN THAT. YOU DO YOUR BEST, GOD ASKS NO MORE THAN THAT.

If that is true, why does God continue to punish me temporally?

I need temporal mercy as well.

 

[BobCatholic]

Infused Knowledge. no ignorance in matters essential for happiness.

They were CLEARLY ignorant.

They didn’t know the serpent was untrustworthy.
They didn’t know what God meant by “you will die”
They didn’t know the real consequences of their act.
They didn’t know that they could ask God for forgiveness and he would have forgiven them on the spot.

I’d say these things are a BIG essentials for happiness since it would have prevented them from getting kicked out of the Garden.

 

[BobCatholic]

If you look on this site Bob it will explain it all to you that Adam and Eve were created perfect (without sin), That is why Mother Mary was sinless because she was saved from Original Sin (which is what Adam and Eve committed and we all were born with) but she was saved from it at the second of her conception.

I’m going beyond that definition of perfect of being without sin.

Perfection for Mary exceeds that of Adam.

Mary did NOT have any desire for sin. Adam did. So comparing both is not appropriate.

It is one thing to take a shower and you’re clean. That’s being without sin.
Then we live in a world that is filled with mud and we trip and fall easily. That’s imperfection and sin. We can be without sin for seconds and then fall quickly and get dirty.

But if you obeying the ten commandments Bob, and going to Church, confession, praying, helping others, you are okay then bob. God wants you to enjoy life also Bob, he wants you to have happiness here. He loves you.

I do not believe God ever wants me to be happy here on earth.

If God wanted me to be happy:

• I would have a stable job situation
• My financial assets would be increasing nicely
• I would be able to have my special needs son bond with me.
• I would not be infertile and I could have more children.
• I would be able to recover and be resurrected from my past failures in the temporal realm.
  and most importantly:
• I would be getting closer to God and having an actual personal relationship with him.

Not one of these things are happening in my life. As a result, God only wants me to be happy in the afterlife - if I somehow manage to survive this life’s horrific sufferings.

 

[Vico]

I’m going beyond that definition of perfect of being without sin.

Perfection for Mary exceeds that of Adam.

Mary did NOT have any desire for sin. Adam did. So comparing both is not appropriate.

It is one thing to take a shower and you’re clean. That’s being without sin.
Then we live in a world that is filled with mud and we trip and fall easily. That’s imperfection and sin. We can be without sin for seconds and then fall quickly and get dirty.

I do not believe God ever wants me to be happy here on earth.

If God wanted me to be happy:

• I would have a stable job situation
• My financial assets would be increasing nicely
• I would be able to have my special needs son bond with me.
• I would not be infertile and I could have more children.
• I would be able to recover and be resurrected from my past failures in the temporal realm.
  and most importantly:
• I would be getting closer to God and having an actual personal relationship with him.

Not one of these things are happening in my life. As a result, God only wants me to be happy in the afterlife - if I somehow manage to survive this life’s horrific sufferings.

Some are severely tested, it may be of one’s own doing, or born into it.

Happiness?
*
Baltimore Catechism*

Q. 150. Why did God make you?

A. God made me to know Him, to love Him, and to serve Him in this world, and to be happy with Him forever in the next.

Suffering?

Mark 10
28 And Peter began to say unto him: Behold, we have left all things, and have followed thee. 29 Jesus answering, said: Amen I say to you, there is no man who hath left house or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or children, or lands, for my sake and for the gospel, 30 Who shall not receive an hundred times as much, now in this time; houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions: and in the world to come life everlasting. 31 But many that are first, shall be last: and the last, first.

John 9
1 And Jesus passing by, saw a man, who was blind from his birth: 2 And his disciples asked him: Rabbi, who hath sinned, this man, or his parents, that he should be born blind? 3 Jesus answered: Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents; but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

 

[BobCatholic]

Happiness?

A. God made me to know Him, to love Him, and to serve Him in this world, and to be happy with Him forever in the next.

Precisely. “be happy with him - in the next”- i.e. in the afterlife.

Not here on this planet. Here we must carry the cross and never be happy.

 

[Vico]

Precisely. “be happy with him - in the next”- i.e. in the afterlife.

Not here on this planet. Here we must carry the cross and never be happy.

John 16:33 – New American Bible (Revised Edition)

33 I have told you this so that you might have peace in me. In the world you will have trouble, but take courage, I have conquered the world.

John 16:33 – King James Version (KJV)

33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

 

[BobCatholic]

John 16:33 – New American Bible (Revised Edition)

33 I have told you this so that you might have peace in me. In the world you will have trouble, but take courage, I have conquered the world.

John 16:33 – King James Version (KJV)

33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Christ has conquered the world. I haven’t.
He’s the master. I"m a worthless speck of dust.

The only happiness that God guarantees is in the afterlife. That is, if one goes to heaven.

Here, we are guaranteed the cross, pain, suffering, and no happiness.

 

[Vico]

Christ has conquered the world. I haven’t.
He’s the master. I"m a worthless speck of dust.

The only happiness that God guarantees is in the afterlife. That is, if one goes to heaven.

Here, we are guaranteed the cross, pain, suffering, and no happiness.

He tells us to be at peace because he has made it possible for our salvation. When we receive sanctifying grace through the sacraments we participate. That is good news.

 

[seagal]

Christ has conquered the world. I haven’t.
He’s the master. I"m a worthless speck of dust.

The only happiness that God guarantees is in the afterlife. That is, if one goes to heaven.

Here, we are guaranteed the cross, pain, suffering, and no happiness.

I hate to break into your melodrama but there are plenty of happy God-fearing people. Even those with crosses to bear are joyfilled. St. Theresa of Avila said “God save us from sour-faced saints.”

We are meant to be happy on earth, God gave us good things to enjoy and beauty to edify us. You’re right that happiness is not guaranteed, nothing in this life is guaranteed, including UNhappiness! You seem to take a certain pride in announcing that God has rejected you. God rejects nobody.

 

[fbl9]

Christ has conquered the world. I haven’t.
He’s the master. I"m a worthless speck of dust.

The only happiness that God guarantees is in the afterlife. That is, if one goes to heaven.

Here, we are guaranteed the cross, pain, suffering, and no happiness.

Sorry Bob you are worth every drop of sweat and blood and even His last breath. Yes we are but dust, worthless NO
You wrote" i am a worthless speck of dust" yet think you should have no suffering and our very savior suffered greater than you ever will.

 

[fbl9]

Precisely. “be happy with him - in the next”- i.e. in the afterlife.

Not here on this planet. Here we must carry the cross and never be happy.

How many of us are carrying our crosses after been flogged, beaten, thorns jammed into our skulls, most likely starved and thirsty. Can you understand how Jesus did this? He saw the goal line.

 

[BobCatholic]

He tells us to be at peace because he has made it possible for our salvation. When we receive sanctifying grace through the sacraments we participate. That is good news.

Yes, that is good news. We can be at peace about our spiritual things, but not about our temporal things. We are never to be happy in this temporal existence.

I hate to break into your melodrama but there are plenty of happy God-fearing people. Even those with crosses to bear are joyfilled. St. Theresa of Avila said “God save us from sour-faced saints.”

Wasn’t she the one who said “God, if this is the way you treat your friends, no wonder you have so few”? She suffered a lot.

She was lucky to get spiritual consolations from God sometimes, THAT made her happy. That doesn’t happen to me, so she’s not a good example.

We are meant to be happy on earth, God gave us good things to enjoy and beauty to edify us. You’re right that happiness is not guaranteed, nothing in this life is guaranteed, including UNhappiness!

IF we are meant to be happy on earth, then God would be healing me and helping me in my temporal things.

But no. That’s not happening.

You seem to take a certain pride in announcing that God has rejected you. God rejects nobody.

Then why is it that every single thing I’ve done to get closer to God has utterly failed? Prayer doesn’t work. Chaplet of Divine Mercy doesn’t work. Rosary doesn’t work. 5 first Fridays didn’t work. 9 first Saturdays didn’t work. And so on and so on. Nothing worked. A lifetime of failure.

I am such a horrible person that I must be not worth it to God to relate to me.

Sorry Bob you are worth every drop of sweat and blood and even His last breath. Yes we are but dust, worthless NO
You wrote" i am a worthless speck of dust" yet think you should have no suffering and our very savior suffered greater than you ever will.

Right, Our Savior suffered a lot, but his sufferings were not enough. God held back our redemption to our bodies (Romans 8:23) and held back forgiving the temporal punishment for Adam and Eve’s sin (If he forgave us, please tell me what flight# goes to the Garden of Eden?)

How many of us are carrying our crosses after been flogged, beaten, thorns jammed into our skulls, most likely starved and thirsty. Can you understand how Jesus did this? He saw the goal line.

Christ did it to fix the spiritual problem. Not the temporal problems.
He held back.

So, what time is the next flight to the Garden of Eden?

 

[seagal]

IF we are meant to be happy on earth, then God would be healing me and helping me in my temporal things.

But no. That’s not happening.

Why? You said yourself Teresa, a great mystic of the church, very close to God, was allowed to suffer. Many saints and holy people are allowed to suffer. Does that mean God doesn’t love them? St. Paul suffered an affliction that he repeatedly asked God to remove, only to have God tell him that God’s grace was sufficient for him. If God doesn’t heal you it isn’t because he doesn’t love you.

Then why is it that every single thing I’ve done to get closer to God has utterly failed? Prayer doesn’t work. Chaplet of Divine Mercy doesn’t work. Rosary doesn’t work. 5 first Fridays didn’t work. 9 first Saturdays didn’t work. And so on and so on. Nothing worked. A lifetime of failure.

Here’s a thought: thank God for your cross. Thank God that he has seen fit to give you this burden to bear for him. Thank him sincerely, not with the hope that he will heal you after all, but with the intention of offering your suffering up for whatever work God requires of you. This is a prayer by Thomas a Kempis that I pray every day

O Lord, you know what is best for me. Let me conduct myself according to your pleasure. Give what you will, how much you will, and when you will. Set me where you will and deal with me as your think best. Behold, I am your servant, prepared for anything, for I desire not to live for myself but for you. May I do so worthily and perfectly. Amen.

Pray this from your heart for 3 weeks straight and then see how you feel.

 

[BobCatholic]

Why? You said yourself Teresa, a great mystic of the church, very close to God, was allowed to suffer. Many saints and holy people are allowed to suffer. Does that mean God doesn’t love them? St. Paul suffered an affliction that he repeatedly asked God to remove, only to have God tell him that God’s grace was sufficient for him. If God doesn’t heal you it isn’t because he doesn’t love you.

Did you read my comment? Yes, they were suffering. That does not mean God meant them to be happy here on this planet. He meant that they be happy in the after life - heaven. Not here.

God does not want us to be happy on this planet.

Here’s a thought: thank God for your cross.

My cross is as meaningless and worthless as I am. I cannot thank God for something I cannot carry.

Thank God that he has seen fit to give you this burden to bear for him. Thank him sincerely, not with the hope that he will heal you after all, but with the intention of offering your suffering up for whatever work God requires of you. This is a prayer by Thomas a Kempis that I pray every day

I offer my daily sufferings, my daily labor for the salvation of souls. I ask Christ to unite them to his holy cross so they’ll actually be effective and store up treasure in heaven for me. In addition I ask him infuse them with his grace so it will be meritorious for me.

This does not change me after years of doing it.

Everyone else gets to benefit, but not me.

I’m in a room with a feast and six foot spoons. I’m forced to feed others but nobody feeds me.

Life is not a gift, it is a responsibility, and not meant to obtain happiness here.

 

[seagal]

My cross is as meaningless and worthless as I am. I cannot thank God for something I cannot carry.

Do it anyway.

I offer my daily sufferings, my daily labor for the salvation of souls. I ask Christ to unite them to his holy cross so they’ll actually be effective and store up treasure in heaven for me. In addition I ask him infuse them with his grace so it will be meritorious for me.

This does not change me after years of doing it.

Everyone else gets to benefit, but not me.

I’m in a room with a feast and six foot spoons. I’m forced to feed others but nobody feeds me.

Life is not a gift, it is a responsibility, and not meant to obtain happiness here.

You sound like you’re in the depths of depression. Have you sought help for that?

 

[fbl9]

Yes, that is good news. We can be at peace about our spiritual things, but not about our temporal things. We are never to be happy in this temporal existence.

Wasn’t she the one who said “God, if this is the way you treat your friends, no wonder you have so few”? She suffered a lot.

She was lucky to get spiritual consolations from God sometimes, THAT made her happy. That doesn’t happen to me, so she’s not a good example.

IF we are meant to be happy on earth, then God would be healing me and helping me in my temporal things.

But no. That’s not happening.

Then why is it that every single thing I’ve done to get closer to God has utterly failed? Prayer doesn’t work. Chaplet of Divine Mercy doesn’t work. Rosary doesn’t work. 5 first Fridays didn’t work. 9 first Saturdays didn’t work. And so on and so on. Nothing worked. A lifetime of failure.

I am such a horrible person that I must be not worth it to God to relate to me.

Right, Our Savior suffered a lot, but his sufferings were not enough. God held back our redemption to our bodies (Romans 8:23) and held back forgiving the temporal punishment for Adam and Eve’s sin (If he forgave us, please tell me what flight# goes to the Garden of Eden?)

Christ did it to fix the spiritual problem. Not the temporal problems.
He held back.

So, what time is the next flight to the Garden of Eden?

Enough with the garden , what makes you think you deserve to be there let alone anybody else., Get it through your head it was never promised and never was promised to you or me.Thinking that God was being cruel by saying go forth and be fruitful to adam and eve knowing their offspring would not enjoy the garden is not cruel rather it would rather saddening to God. If i chopped your hand off it doesn’t grow back after you forgive me. btw i see you don’t understand how much you are worth to God for He himself has said you are worth every thing He suffered.
If you think you are humbling yourself by claiming worthlessness you are dead wrong, just being proud to be a loser. Oh poor me look at me i am a loser, i deserve nothing even God doesn’t want me.Look at me i did and done but not God He does nothing for me. Seriously Bob it doesn’t work. Been there done that.

 

[BobCatholic]

Enough with the garden , what makes you think you deserve to be there let alone anybody else.,

Actually I’m all for others being there as well, come and join me! All of us were supposed to be there.

Get it through your head it was never promised and never was promised to you or me.

God told Adam and Eve to be “fruitful and multiply” IN THE GARDEN. Pay attention to that key part. If God did not mean for Adam and Eve’s children (hint: that’s us) to be in the Garden, then you’re accusing God of trolling Adam and Eve.

God holds us temporally responsible for the sin of our ancestors, instead of doing what he intended.

i see you don’t understand how much you are worth to God for He himself has said you are worth every thing He suffered.

If I was worth a fraction of a percent of a mustard seed to God I think he’d actually want to relate to me instead of avoiding talking to me. Every attempt I’ve made to get closer to God has failed. Obviously I’m not worth it in God’s eyes.

Tell me, how did you get your personal relationship with God? All I have is a corporate one. And how often does he talk to you? Maybe you can ask him my question.

Instead of judging me harshly, how about actually helping using what you have (i.e. your personal relationship with God)?

If you think you are humbling yourself by claiming worthlessness you are dead wrong, .

St. Faustina called herself “a worthless speck of dust” - I think I’m emulating someone good there by doing the same. Maybe one day if I get lucky, I’ll be promoted to “useless servant”

Do it anyway.

Why? I’m not a masochist.

You sound like you’re in the depths of depression. Have you sought help for that?

My problem is not psychological, but spiritual. It all comes down to the fact I don’t have a personal relationship with God, and only have a corporate one.

One hug from God would solve a lot of my problems.

 

[Vico]

Yes, that is good news. We can be at peace about our spiritual things, but not about our temporal things. We are never to be happy in this temporal existence. …

Book of Revelation 4:21, “He will wipe every tear from their eyes, and there shall be no more death or mourning, wailing or pain, for the old order has passed away.”