Is our free choice real

[fred_conty]

by BobCatholic… But how do I know for sure I’m in the state of grace and am not fooling myself?

We can only be morally certain, not absolutely certain. Which means that since our last good confession, we have not committed any mortal sins to the best of our knowledge.

But then … we can’t know this absolutely.

This is one of the basic reasons a person should go to confession at least once a month. Because then even those sins, we aren’t aware of that may be serious, are forgiven. Then our certainty is better.

 

[BobCatholic]

by BobCatholic… But how do I know for sure I’m in the state of grace and am not fooling myself?

We can only be morally certain, not absolutely certain. Which means that since our last good confession, we have not committed any mortal sins to the best of our knowledge.

But then … we can’t know this absolutely.

This is one of the basic reasons a person should go to confession at least once a month. Because then even those sins, we aren’t aware of that may be serious, are forgiven. Then our certainty is better.

I go to confession frequently. I even confess all sins I have forgotten and redefined in error.

I don’t want to depend on “my lack of knowledge” as an excuse. What was that scripture? If someone knew God’s will and didn’t do it, they get the full punishment - lashes, if one is not aware, and didn’t do God’s will, they get fewer lashes.

I don’t want ANY lashes. They hurt!

How do I get around that?

 

[tonyrey]

I go to confession frequently. I even confess all sins I have forgotten and redefined in error.

I don’t want to depend on “my lack of knowledge” as an excuse. What was that scripture? If someone knew God’s will and didn’t do it, they get the full punishment - lashes, if one is not aware, and didn’t do God’s will, they get fewer lashes.

I don’t want ANY lashes. They hurt!

How do I get around that?

Our punishment is not inflicted by God but self-inflicted. Our virtues bring their own reward and our vices incur their punishment. The Greek concept of Nemesis and the Indian doctrine of Karma tally with the teaching of Jesus that we alone are responsible for our good or evil deeds. God doesn’t need to intervene because if we have integrity we remain spiritually attractive and can live in harmony with others whereas if we become corrupt we are like rotten fruit which becomes poisonous and rejected. There is plenty of evidence that heaven and hell begin in this world according to whether we love our neighbours and are united to them or live for ourselves and become isolated in a hell of our own making. God’s will is that we live with Him in heaven and our eternal destiny depends entirely on us. If we do our best to follow the example of Jesus we have nothing to fear:

And I am convinced that nothing can ever separate us from God’s love. Neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,**(“Romans 8:31-39 NLT - Nothing Can Separate Us from God’s - Bible Gateway”)] neither our fears for today nor our worries about tomorrow—not even the powers of hell can separate us from God’s love. 39 No power in the sky above or in the earth below—indeed, nothing in all creation will ever be able to separate us from the love of God that is revealed in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Romans 8:38-39

 

[tonyrey]

Colossians 1:24-2624 Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking[a] in the afflictions of Christ on behalf of his body, which is the church, of which I am a minister in accordance with God’s stewardship given to me to bring to completion for you the word of God, 26 the mystery hidden from ages and from generations past. …1:24 What is lacking: although variously interpreted, this phrase does not imply that Christ’s atoning death on the cross was defective. It may refer to the apocalyptic concept of a quota of “messianic woes” to be endured before the end comes; cf. Mk 13:8, 19–20, 24 and the note on Mt 23:29–32. Others suggest that Paul’s mystical unity with Christ allowed him to call his own sufferings the afflictions of Christ.

I think St Paul may mean Jesus loves us so much He couldn’t suffer in His human nature as much as He wanted to atone for all the diabolical injustice and needless suffering in the world. There was obviously a limit to what He could do while on earth. This is reflected in Pascal’s belief that even though He is no longer with us “Jesus will be in agony until the end of the world, we must not sleep during that time.” It may seem excessive to us but divine love knows no bounds. Whether this is true is really irrelevant because if we offer Him our sufferings we are participating in the salvation of the human race. Perhaps St Paul was thinking of Our Lord’s words:

“And whoever does not carry his cross and follow Me cannot be My disciple.”

Luke 14:27

They do suggest we all have a vital role in the liberation of mankind from evil.

 

[Vico]

I think St Paul may mean Jesus loves us so much He couldn’t suffer in His human nature as much as He wanted to atone for all the diabolical injustice and needless suffering in the world. There was obviously a limit to what He could do while on earth. This is reflected in Pascal’s belief that even though He is no longer with us “Jesus will be in agony until the end of the world, we must not sleep during that time.” It may seem excessive to us but divine love knows no bounds. Whether this is true is really irrelevant because if we offer Him our sufferings we are participating in the salvation of the human race. Perhaps St Paul was thinking of Our Lord’s words:

Luke 14:27

They do suggest we all have a vital role in the liberation of mankind from evil.

Certainly, the more share the greater the merit in heaven and glory to God.

 

[BobCatholic]

Our punishment is not inflicted by God but self-inflicted.

So what did I do to deserve to be out of the Garden of Eden? What did I do to deserve being temporally held responsible for the sins of not just Adam and Eve, but my ancestors and even others’ sins?

Our virtues bring their own reward and our vices incur their punishment. The Greek concept of Nemesis and the Indian doctrine of Karma tally with the teaching of Jesus that we alone are responsible for our good or evil deeds.

Since we are imperfect, it is impossible for someone to be virtuous on their own strength. And if God says no to helping out in this area, game over, vice is the only way.

We are responsible because we are the weak ones, the all-powerful God has no responsibility. It is all about power. We have none. He has it all.

Imagine this. A programmer writes buggy software. The software inevitably crashes. Instead of fixing the bugs, he throws the computer away.

What do you think of that programmer?

Humanity thrown out of the Garden of Eden looks very familiar.

. God’s will is that we live with Him in heaven and our eternal destiny depends entirely on us. If we do our best to follow the example of Jesus we have nothing to fear:

Romans 8:38-39

But if God does not help, game over, there is no hope. “without me you can do nothing”

So, how do I convince God to help when he refuses to help?

I’m being set up to fail.

 

[BobCatholic]

by BobCatholic… But how do I know for sure I’m in the state of grace and am not fooling myself?

We can only be morally certain, not absolutely certain. Which means that since our last good confession, we have not committed any mortal sins to the best of our knowledge.

But then … we can’t know this absolutely.

This is one of the basic reasons a person should go to confession at least once a month. Because then even those sins, we aren’t aware of that may be serious, are forgiven. Then our certainty is better.

I want to know this absolutely if I am in a state of grace, not just morally.

And this is why:

I wish I could find a Padre Pio type who can read souls. I want my soul read and completely revealed to me, so I can confess every last sin, do penance and somehow get God to stop punishing me.

It is simple as that. I can’t do this through my own power. God refuses to help in this area so I’m stuck.

 

[tonyrey]

Our punishment is not inflicted by God but self-inflicted.

405 Although it is proper to each individual,** original sin does not have the character of a personal fault** in any of Adam’s descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called “concupiscence”. Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ’s grace, erases original sin and turns a man back towards God, but the consequences for nature, weakened and inclined to evil, persist in man and summon him to spiritual battle.

Our virtues bring their own reward and our vices incur their punishment. The Greek concept of Nemesis and the Indian doctrine of Karma tally with the teaching of Jesus that we alone are responsible for our good or evil deeds.

Since we are imperfect, it is impossible for someone to be virtuous on their own strength. And if God says no to helping out in this area, game over, vice is the only way.

God never says “no”. Why do you think Jesus died for us?

We are responsible because we are the weak ones, the all-powerful God has no responsibility. It is all about power. We have none. He has it all.

Imagine this. A programmer writes buggy software. The software inevitably crashes. Instead of fixing the bugs, he throws the computer away.

What do you think of that programmer?

Humanity thrown out of the Garden of Eden looks very familiar.

Ever heard of free will?

God’s will is that we live with Him in heaven and our eternal destiny depends entirely on us. If we do our best to follow the example of Jesus we have nothing to fear:

But if God does not help, game over, there is no hope. “without me you can do nothing”

So, how do I convince God to help when he refuses to help?

God never refuses to help. Why do you think Jesus died for us?

I’m being set up to fail.

You imagine you’re being set up to fail…

So what did I do to deserve to be out of the Garden of Eden? What did I do to deserve being temporally held responsible for the sins of not just Adam and Eve, but my ancestors and even others’ sins?

405 Although it is proper to each individual,** original sin does not have the character of a personal fault** in any of Adam’s descendants.

Since we are imperfect, it is impossible for someone to be virtuous on their own strength. And if God says no to helping out in this area, game over, vice is the only way.

We are responsible because we are the weak ones, the all-powerful God has no responsibility. It is all about power. We have none. He has it all.

Imagine this. A programmer writes buggy software. The software inevitably crashes. Instead of fixing the bugs, he throws the computer away.

What do you think of that programmer?

Humanity thrown out of the Garden of Eden looks very familiar.

But if God does not help, game over, there is no hope. “without me you can do nothing”

So, how do I convince God to help when he refuses to help?

I’m being set up to fail.

Why do you think Jesus died for us?

 

[tonyrey]

I want to know this absolutely if I am in a state of grace, not just morally.

And this is why:

I wish I could find a Padre Pio type who can read souls. I want my soul read and completely revealed to me, so I can confess every last sin, do penance and somehow get God to stop punishing me.

It is simple as that. I can’t do this through my own power. God refuses to help in this area so I’m stuck.

How do you **know **God refuses to help? Is it impossible that He inspires others to help you? Or do you expect a miracle?

 

[po18guy]

But how do I know for sure I’m in the state of grace and am not fooling myself?

Mortal sin is not easy to commit. You know the requirements: 1. Serious matter. 2. Knowledge that it is serious matter. 3. Full consent of the will.

How often do you receive the Sacrament of Reconciliation? When you make a good confession and receive absolution, you may be certain. God is not the Master of confusion or doubt.

 

[BobCatholic]

Mortal sin is not easy to commit. You know the requirements: 1. Serious matter. 2. Knowledge that it is serious matter. 3. Full consent of the will.

If mortal sin is not easy to commit, it would be very uncommon - but mortal sin is pretty much all over the place.

And then there’s St. Leonard’s sermon of the few number of people who are saved. Read it. It is quite depressing.

So I disagree that mortal sin is difficult to commit, it is actually ridiculously easy to fall into mortal sin.

How often do you receive the Sacrament of Reconciliation? When you make a good confession and receive absolution, you may be certain. God is not the Master of confusion or doubt.

Yes, I believe this, and agree.

The problem is that what if I didn’t confess everything? I try to cover that by saying “I confess any sins I have omitted and those I have redefined in error” but I’m wondering if that is enough.

I want the Divine Physician to heal all the ills.

How do you **know **God refuses to help? Is it impossible that He inspires others to help you? Or do you expect a miracle?

What I’d like is the ability, and help, to get overcome vice and become more virtuous.
Because I’m imperfect, I can’t do this on my own power. So I ask God for help to overcome my imperfections. Guess what? I’m not perfect. And not making progress.

Life is a treadmill, if you’re not making progress, you will fall off the treadmill. That’s how the spiritual life is.

So, if I’m not getting better, that means I’m getting worse, and God said no to my prayer.

I’m not expecting a miracle, I’m expecting help.

 

[BobCatholic]

405 Although it is proper to each individual,** original sin does not have the character of a personal fault** in any of Adam’s descendants.

Yes, it is not a personal fault, so we are not responsible in any way for this.

But we are still temporally held responsible for their sin.

It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called “concupiscence”.

A software bug God the Great Programmer, refuses to fix.

God never says “no”. Why do you think Jesus died for us?

I asked God (many times) for help to become prefect, to overcome my imperfections.

Guess what? I’m still imperfect after all these years.

I think it is safe to say he said no.

Ever heard of free will?

Free will is diminished or eliminated by imperfections.

God never refuses to help. Why do you think Jesus died for us?

God only helps if it is in his will. If it is not in his will, game over, no help.

Where was God’s help during my 3 really long unemployment stretches? Temporal punishment, no healing. I’m still unable to keep a steady job. God refused to help during those times, and still refuses to help.

Why do you think Jesus died for us?

To take care of the spiritual mess that Adam and Eve did. He did nothing to take care of the temporal mess - you’ll notice we are not in the Garden of Eden.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Where was God’s help during my 3 really long unemployment stretches? Temporal punishment, no healing. I’m still unable to keep a steady job. God refused to help during those times, and still refuses to help.

Ask yourself this question:

“Must I blame God for not being able to keep a steady job?”

 

[BobCatholic]

Ask yourself this question:

“Must I blame God for not being able to keep a steady job?”

Tell me, what am I supposed to do? I went back to school twice to learn new things, and tried to get jobs in two other new areas. Rejected due to “no experience”

Who cares I have the experience in another area. I can’t switch careers, and am stuck in a career that has no future.

Should I go back to school yet again? What should I study?

I’ve done everything I can do in my power to gain steady employment. I think it is safe to say God is the only way left to help.

If I asked God repeatedly for a steady job and got a no, who should I blame for his rejection?

Am I an evil person because my responsibilities are permanent and my ability to carry those responsibilities is not permanent and thus the scales are out of balance?

 

[rinnie]

Can the choice between ecstasy (Heaven) and torment (Hell) be considered a real free choice. Is it not more “do it my way or else”.
I hope this is the right forum.
Hope all is well for everyone.

Not at all. You either want to be with God in heaven if you do all you want to do is please him and do his will.

Or you want nothing to do with God and choose to please yourself and live in your sin.

So how can you not have a choice. Do you not agree you will either live in eternal death with your sin, or choose not to sin and live in eternal life with Christ.

If you love Christ you would not want to sin, do you not agree?

 

[BobCatholic]

Not at all. You either want to be with God in heaven if you do all you want to do is please him and do his will.

Or you want nothing to do with God and choose to please yourself and live in your sin.

So how can you not have a choice. Do you not agree you will either live in eternal death with your sin, or choose not to sin and live in eternal life with Christ.

If you love Christ you would not want to sin, do you not agree?

To be with God and go to heaven, one has to endure horrific suffering and endure huge amounts of difficulty.

To go to hell, just exist.

How is this a choice? If it were a real choice, the difficulty or ease of both would be identical or very close to similar. Instead, it is ridiculously easy to go to hell but horrifically difficult to go to heaven.

first grade math class versus Calculus IV class honors, for the one bad at math, the latter is not an option. No choice there.

 

[rinnie]

To be with God and go to heaven, one has to endure horrific suffering and endure huge amounts of difficulty.

To go to hell, just exist.

How is this a choice? If it were a real choice, the difficulty or ease of both would be identical or very close to similar. Instead, it is ridiculously easy to go to hell but horrifically difficult to go to heaven.

first grade math class versus Calculus IV class honors, for the one bad at math, the latter is not an option. No choice there.

How do you figure that one going to hell does not endure horrific suffering and huge amount of difficulty.

 

[BobCatholic]

How do you figure that one going to hell does not endure horrific suffering and huge amount of difficulty.

It is easy to go to hell. Just exist. That’s our default destination.

Yes, people endure horrific suffering and huge amounts of difficulty - THERE. And many endure that getting there. However, ending up in hell is easy to do. Ridiculously easy. Suffering is OPTIONAL to go to hell. It is REQUIRED for heaven.

Christ himself said that only a few will be saved. He also said the way to perdition is wide and many are on it. That doesn’t tell me that getting to hell involves horrific suffering and a huge amount of difficulty.

In my opinion, the scales are way out of balance.

 

[rinnie]

Well, the point I am making is that the sin is avoidable once you have enough grace otherwise we eventually forfeit because of Satan temptation and inner interest.

Not really. Even if we have the grace of God to overcome sin, we can still commit the sin. Otherwise you are saying that God gives us grace, and his grace takes away our free will. And that would be false.

 

[rinnie]

It is easy to go to hell. Just exist. That’s our default destination.

Yes, people endure horrific suffering and huge amounts of difficulty - THERE. And many endure that getting there. However, ending up in hell is easy to do. Ridiculously easy. Suffering is OPTIONAL to go to hell. It is REQUIRED for heaven.

Christ himself said that only a few will be saved. He also said the way to perdition is wide and many are on it. That doesn’t tell me that getting to hell involves horrific suffering and a huge amount of difficulty.

In my opinion, the scales are way out of balance.

I disagree, because I believe that you do not know how to truly define hell. As a matter of fact by your own words I can say you do not.

You say suffering is optional to go to hell. That is indeed the complete opposite teaching of what hell is according to the RCC,

Suffering in hell is not optional it is a fact. The reason is you meet God face to face, and refuse to accept him because you refuse to repent. The suffering is meeting God face to face but having everlasting death knowing what everlasting life could be with him. THe suffering is NOT having him.