Is our free choice real

[BobCatholic]

I have to come back to the same question again then, do you think your sins have been absolved?

Yes. But not the temporal punishment.

What punishment are you referring to?

The temporal punishment for sins. You’ll notice we don’t live in the Garden of Eden.

 

[Vico]

Yes. But not the temporal punishment.

The temporal punishment for sins. You’ll notice we don’t live in the Garden of Eden.

Having no temporal punishment would not make this the Garden of Eden. The temporal punishment is eliminated in purgatory.

 

[BobCatholic]

Having no temporal punishment would not make this the Garden of Eden.

No temporal punishment means no suffering. That’s what we had in the Garden of Eden.

The temporal punishment is eliminated in purgatory.

And apparently here as well, but that’s because we are held temporally responsible for the sins of others and our own sins.

 

[Vico]

No temporal punishment means no suffering. That’s what we had in the Garden of Eden.

And apparently here as well, but that’s because we are held temporally responsible for the sins of others and our own sins.

The Church uses the term temporal punishment to mean what we get as a result of personal sin not original sin. Temporal punishments can be eliminated, for example, through baptism, indulgences, or in purgatory.

Catechsim

1472 To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the “eternal punishment” of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the “temporal punishment” of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.83

 

[BobCatholic]

The Church uses the term temporal punishment to mean what we get as a result of personal sin not original sin.

Then what about the temporal punishment imposed by original sin? You will notice we are not in the Garden of Eden. We are held temporally responsible for the sins of Adam and Eve (and other people’s sin).

None of those three did anything about that.

 

[Aloysium]

Then what about the temporal punishment imposed by original sin? You will notice we are not in the Garden of Eden. We are held temporally responsible for the sins of Adam and Eve (and other people’s sin).

None of those three did anything about that.

What happens is this:
Adam blames the woman.
The woman blames the snake.
You’re blaming everyone.
Well, God actually, for establishing this “game”.
This is life.
You can go on griping or try your best.
God loves you regardless.
But it wears thin on those of us lacking in the grace of patience.
Vico, dude, how do you do it?
I get it; it sucks to be you.
It sucks to be me at times, but I wouldn’t give it up for anything.
Join the human race.
Would you rather be in Aleppo or Haiti or . . .
Count your blessings and maybe see someone for your depression.

 

[BobCatholic]

[snip harsh judgment]

And this is why I hesitate to talk about things on this forum, the harsh judgments from the supermen who leap tall buildings in a single bound. They’re so far ahead of me in the spiritual life and instead of showing empathy, they judge harshly.

Instead of realizing that if it wasn’t for God’s grace, they would be in the same place I am in…nope. Pride comes into the equation, and they don the judge’s robes and wield the gavel. And slam it down on me.

Scripture says that iron sharpens iron, not iron cuts down the other iron and makes them feel even more worthless than they feel.

 

[tonyrey]

To be honest I don’t understand this at all. All Angels were given gift of grace and some fell. The rest however stays with God forever. That seems contradictory to me.

Why?

 

[STT]

Why?

Because no one leaves a fantastic house and live in street. Specially when the host is very generous like a great Father.

 

[fbl9]

Then what about the temporal punishment imposed by original sin? You will notice we are not in the Garden of Eden. We are held temporally responsible for the sins of Adam and Eve (and other people’s sin).

None of those three did anything about that.

Well the garden of Eden was not given to us nor promised to us in the first place.

 

[Vico]

Then what about the temporal punishment imposed by original sin? You will notice we are not in the Garden of Eden. We are held temporally responsible for the sins of Adam and Eve (and other people’s sin).

None of those three did anything about that.

That is not called temporal punishment. There is no mention of punishment at all in the Catechism on the Fall (Paragraph 7. The Fall) items 385-421. The Catechism speaks of “The consequences of Adam’s sin for humanity” and “original sin is called “sin” only in an analogical sense: it is a sin “contracted” and not “committed” - a state and not an act.” CCC 404. If we call it punishment for contracted analogical sin then it is analogical punishment, which means figurative or non-literal.

The Baltimore Catechism No. 3, Lesson 5, has:

Q. 258. But how did the loss of the gift of original justice leave our first parents and us in mortal sin?

A. The loss of the gift of original justice left our first parents and us in mortal sin because it deprived them of the Grace of God, and to be without this gift of Grace which they should have had was to be in mortal sin. As all their children are deprived of the same gift, they, too, come into the world in a state of mortal sin.

 

[BobCatholic]

Well the garden of Eden was not given to us nor promised to us in the first place.

And God did not promise to take care of our temporal needs, so how do both your statement and my statements show the tender, Fatherly care of divine providence, when the only thing guaranteed is suffering?

That is not called temporal punishment.

God kicked A&E out of the Garden of Eden. That was a punishment. We suffer the same punishment.

God made labor harder. That was a punishment. We suffer the same punishment.

God increased labor pains and suffering. That was s punishment. We suffer the same punishment.

There is no difference between consequences and punishment. It is the same thing happening, imposed by God.

 

[Vico]

And God did not promise to take care of our temporal needs, so how do both your statement and my statements show the tender, Fatherly care of divine providence, when the only thing guaranteed is suffering?

God kicked A&E out of the Garden of Eden. That was a punishment. We suffer the same punishment.

God made labor harder. That was a punishment. We suffer the same punishment.

God increased labor pains and suffering. That was s punishment. We suffer the same punishment.

There is no difference between consequences and punishment. It is the same thing happening, imposed by God.

God has redeemed us, given us eternal life, and that it truly love. Suffering need not be eternal.

God imposes all laws of creation. You are referring to what Adam and Eve lost for themselves, and for mankind, but was not mankind’s destiny to receive.

You can call the consequences punishment if you want to, for there are many definitions of punishment both real and analogical, but it is not the temporal punishment for sin as the Church uses the term, as explained before.

 

[BobCatholic]

God has redeemed us, given us eternal life, and that it truly love.

Yes, but he has not finished off all the evils.

Suffering need not be eternal.

If the temporal suffering is too much for me to handle, it will be eternal. I’m trying to strive to enter the narrow gate but I’m too weak, and am doomed.

You are referring to what Adam and Eve lost for themselves, and for mankind, but was not mankind’s destiny to receive.

Yes, if they lost for themselves, they are held responsible for their actions.

But they had no right to be doing that for everyone else. Where did they get the right and power to represent the entire of humanity and make decisions on behalf of everyone else? I didn’t vote for them! Why am I punished?

You can call the consequences punishment if you want to, for there are many definitions of punishment both real and analogical, but it is not the temporal punishment for sin as the Church uses the term, as explained before.

I still don’t see the difference between a consequence versus a punishment. Both are consequences. They’re the same.

The temporal punishment of sin as taught by the Catholic Church is the punishment for sin that takes place here in time. These can be remitted by indulgences.

Indulgences can’t get us back in the Garden of Eden. So not all temporal punishment can and will be remitted by indulgences. This is why I believe it is impossible for me to get a plenary indulgence. If I manage to make it through this life, I’m going to be in purgatory and will be turning off the lights at the end.

Thanks for being patient with me, I appreciate it. I’m not trying to be stubborn old goat, just can’t figure things out on my own.

 

[Vico]

Yes, but he has not finished off all the evils.

If the temporal suffering is too much for me to handle, it will be eternal. I’m trying to strive to enter the narrow gate but I’m too weak, and am doomed.

Yes, if they lost for themselves, they are held responsible for their actions.

But they had no right to be doing that for everyone else. Where did they get the right and power to represent the entire of humanity and make decisions on behalf of everyone else? I didn’t vote for them! Why am I punished?

I still don’t see the difference between a consequence versus a punishment. Both are consequences. They’re the same.

The temporal punishment of sin as taught by the Catholic Church is the punishment for sin that takes place here in time. These can be remitted by indulgences.

Indulgences can’t get us back in the Garden of Eden. So not all temporal punishment can and will be remitted by indulgences. This is why I believe it is impossible for me to get a plenary indulgence. If I manage to make it through this life, I’m going to be in purgatory and will be turning off the lights at the end.

Thanks for being patient with me, I appreciate it. I’m not trying to be stubborn old goat, just can’t figure things out on my own.

Final penitence is what will determine the state after death. It is best not to attempt to tell the future. Remember Saul (old testament) turned to a pillar of salt for looking back.

The Catholic teaching is that if you are in the state of grace, that you have sufficient grace to remain in the state of grace.

 

[BobCatholic]

Final penitence is what will determine the state after death.

It is best not to attempt to tell the future.

Well, there’s no way to know anyway, if one is doing final penitence.

Remember Saul (old testament) turned to a pillar of salt for looking back.

That was Lot’s wife, looking back at Sodom and Gomorrah.

The Catholic teaching is that if you are in the state of grace, that you have sufficient grace to remain in the state of grace.

But how do I know for sure I’m in the state of grace and am not fooling myself?

 

[Vico]

Well, there’s no way to know anyway, if one is doing final penitence.

That was Lot’s wife, looking back at Sodom and Gomorrah.

But how do I know for sure I’m in the state of grace and am not fooling myself?

Yes, thank you Saul lost kingship for disobedience.

St. Francis de Sales:
So then, when you have fallen, lift up your heart in quietness, humbling yourself deeply before God by reason of your frailty, without marvelling that you fell;–there is no cause to marvel because weakness is weak, or infirmity infirm. Heartily lament that you should have offended God, and begin anew to cultivate the lacking grace, with a very deep trust in His Mercy, and with a bold, brave heart.

catholicity.com/devoutlife/3-09.html

 

[tonyrey]

Because no one leaves a fantastic house and live in street. Specially when the host is very generous like a great Father.

Throughout history people have fought and died for independence and self-determination.

 

[Aloysium]

. . . (harsh judgement) . . .

Seems my amateur attempt at an intervention was even less successful (and possibly counterproductive) in freeing you from your misery than were information and reason. I leave you in God’s benevolent hands. May He grant you peace. Let’s pray that we all become more loving persons.

 

[Vico]

Indulgences can’t get us back in the Garden of Eden. So not all temporal punishment can and will be remitted by indulgences. This is why I believe it is impossible for me to get a plenary indulgence. If I manage to make it through this life, I’m going to be in purgatory and will be turning off the lights at the end.
…

All temporal punishment can be eliminated with a plenary indulgence. What is removed is an unhealthy attachment to creatures, and this requires perfect contrition.

Some of what you speak of is not temporal punishment for sin – only temporal punishment for sin is removed by indulgences.

Consequence of the original sin for humans

• Adam and Eve lost supernatural gift of sanctifying grace
• Adam and Eve lost preternatural gift of immortality
• Adam and Eve were expelled (to not eat of the tree of life) and would have new difficulties
• no gift of sanctifying grace at conception for mankind (the stain or original sin)
• no gift of preternatural gifts at conception for mankind

For actual sins (mankind including Adam and Eve)

• eternal punishment (for unforgiven mortal or serious sin)
• temporal punishment (for all sin) *
• other consequences that we have to endure in our life as a result of actual sin
• the need for penance (satisfaction for sin) **
• removable through purgatory or indulgences or baptism or sacrament of confession.
  ** Absolution takes away sin, but it does not remedy all the disorders sin has caused.62 Raised up from sin, the sinner must still recover his full spiritual health by doing something more to make amends for the sin: he must “make satisfaction for” or “expiate” his sins. This satisfaction is also called “penance.” – Catechism 1457

The Garden of Eden was not perfect. There was the tree of knowledge of good and evil there and even after the first sin they remained in the Garden of Eden with fear and ashamed of nakedness, before their expulsion.

So although mankind does not have the preternatural gift or gifts that Adam and Eve had God has made if possible to receive eternal life, after living our lives with the suffering inherent in earthly life, and uniting that suffering with that of Christ, as St. Paul wrote:

Colossians 1:24-26

24 Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking[a] in the afflictions of Christ on behalf of his body, which is the church, of which I am a minister in accordance with God’s stewardship given to me to bring to completion for you the word of God, 26 the mystery hidden from ages and from generations past. …

1:24 What is lacking: although variously interpreted, this phrase does not imply that Christ’s atoning death on the cross was defective. It may refer to the apocalyptic concept of a quota of “messianic woes” to be endured before the end comes; cf. Mk 13:8, 19–20, 24 and the note on Mt 23:29–32. Others suggest that Paul’s mystical unity with Christ allowed him to call his own sufferings the afflictions of Christ.