Is our free choice real

[Vico]

Really?

Please tell me where the Church has taught it is easy to go to heaven. Where did the Church ever mention the ratio of saved to damned? Did the Church even post numbers somewhere of how many saved in heaven versus damned?

The answer is “no” to all of the above.

And this proves my point. It is horrifically difficult to get into heaven, while it is ridiculously easy to get damned.

The scales are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay out of balance here.

It is most appropriate that it not be easy, for the more difficult demonstrates more charity, and the crown of glory is then greater. Are you thinking pass/fail vs graded? Those in heaven have greater or lesser based upon their demonstration in life.

 

[BobCatholic]

Which is why your number that was posted a while back is meaningless.

How is it meaningless?

If it is ridiculously easy to go to hell and horrifically difficult to go to heaven, what chance do I have?

Only if you choose to go it alone.
Jesus said, "For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.”

I can’t do it alone.

I can’t connect to God. Every attempt to get closer to God has failed for me.

So I don’t have a choice.

I am alone.

 

[davidv]

How is it meaningless?

If it is ridiculously easy to go to hell and horrifically difficult to go to heaven, what chance do I have?

Salvation is not a probability problem. It is a love problem. Will you love God not matter what? How do you love God? By loving your neighbor. Is this often hard to do? Yes. Can our will overcome this hard to do? Yes. What is required? Surrender.

I can’t do it alone.

Correct.

I can’t connect to God. Every attempt to get closer to God has failed for me.

Why are you insisting that this connection be on your terms.

So I don’t have a choice.

We always have a choice.

I am alone.

Only if you choose to be.

 

[BobCatholic]

Salvation is not a probability problem. It is a love problem. Will you love God not matter what?

How can I love someone I don’t know and does not want me?

How do you love God?

Badly.

By loving your neighbor. Is this often hard to do? Yes. Can our will overcome this hard to do? Yes.

It is hard to do and that proves my point about why it is ridiculously easy to go to hell and seriously hard to go to heaven.

What is required? Surrender.

A love relationship is not based on war terms like surrender.

Why are you insisting that this connection be on your terms.

His terms are impossible for me to follow.

I am a married man with a son. I cannot be a monk. God only wants monks/nuns/clergy, not people like me.
I am not a masochist and that repels me. God expects me to be a masochist.
God expects me to be perfect when I am created imperfect and he won’t fix the defects.

I can’t meet these terms, it is impossible for me.

We always have a choice.

How does one have a choice if their software is buggy? I am imperfect. I have defects up the wazoo. I can’t be perfect like God demands me to be. It is impossible. Thus there is no choice.

If God didn’t make the choice, there is no choice on my side.

Only if you choose to be.

If God rejected me I am alone.

 

[Vico]

How can I love someone I don’t know and does not want me?

Badly.

It is hard to do and that proves my point about why it is ridiculously easy to go to hell and seriously hard to go to heaven.

A love relationship is not based on war terms like surrender.

His terms are impossible for me to follow.

I am a married man with a son. I cannot be a monk. God only wants monks/nuns/clergy, not people like me.
I am not a masochist and that repels me. God expects me to be a masochist.
God expects me to be perfect when I am created imperfect and he won’t fix the defects.

I can’t meet these terms, it is impossible for me.

How does one have a choice if their software is buggy? I am imperfect. I have defects up the wazoo. I can’t be perfect like God demands me to be. It is impossible. Thus there is no choice.

If God didn’t make the choice, there is no choice on my side.

If God rejected me I am alone.

Charity is a war upon evil.

When one says cannot it sounds like having no will. If there is a psychological disorder then culpability is mitigated to the degree that the will is compromised. Even so, with God anything is possible. God does “he won’t fix the defects” with the cooperation of the faithful. Surrender is emptying of self, which is expressed as charity, and allows Christ to live through his faithful icons. See Luke 14 [NABRE] for what is needed to be a disciple.

25 Great crowds were traveling with him, and he turned and addressed them, 26 “If any one comes to me without hating his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple. 27 Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after me cannot be my disciple.

 

[BobCatholic]

Charity is a war upon evil.

And I’m willing to fight, but I’m disarmed. I want a spiritual AR-15 with ten 30 round magazines and tons of ammo to fight. Instead, I’m given the equivalent of a plastic knife from the kitchen. With predictable results. The evil enemy wins, and I hate him!

When one says cannot it sounds like having no will.

Will without resources is meaningless.

I will to buy a mansion. I don’t have enough money. Will does nothing.

Even so, with God anything is possible.

If it is in his will.

if not, it is impossible.

God is limited by his will.

God does “he won’t fix the defects” with the cooperation of the faithful.

Huh?

Surrender is emptying of self,

Because the self is evil. And only Jesus goes to heaven, nobody else. Interpret these both as hyperbole.

This is not surrender. It is the elimination of evil.

Surrender is a military term, and inappropriate for a love relationship.

 

[Vico]

And I’m willing to fight, but I’m disarmed. I want a spiritual AR-15 with ten 30 round magazines and tons of ammo to fight. Instead, I’m given the equivalent of a plastic knife from the kitchen. With predictable results. The evil enemy wins, and I hate him!

Will without resources is meaningless.

I will to buy a mansion. I don’t have enough money. Will does nothing.

If it is in his will.

if not, it is impossible.

God is limited by his will.

Huh?

Because the self is evil. And only Jesus goes to heaven, nobody else. Interpret these both as hyperbole.

This is not surrender. It is the elimination of evil.

Surrender is a military term, and inappropriate for a love relationship.

Your wrote: “God expects me to be perfect when I am created imperfect and he won’t fix the defects.”

I replied: “God does “he won’t fix the defects” with the cooperation of the faithful.” which means God does fix the defects with the cooperation of the faithful. I did not edit it correctly.

Supernatural grace is your resource.

This is what I am referring to, Matthew 19

23 Then Jesus said to his disciples: Amen, I say to you, that a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. 24 And again I say to you: It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of heaven. 25 And when they had heard this, the disciples wondered very much, saying: Who then can be saved? 26 And Jesus beholding, said to them: With men this is impossible: but with God all things are possible.

Surrender is both a military term and also applies to relationships. It is because love is demonstrated by engaging the devil in battle. As Jesus told the pharisees in John 8:

42 Jesus therefore said to them: If God were your Father, you would indeed love me. For from God I proceeded, and came; for I came not of myself, but he sent me: 43 Why do you not know my speech? Because you cannot hear my word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and he stood not in the truth; because truth is not in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father thereof. 45 But if I say the truth, you believe me not. 46 Which of you shall convince me of sin? If I say the truth to you, why do you not believe me? 47 He that is of God, heareth the words of God. Therefore you hear them not, because you are not of God.

James 4:7 Be subject therefore to God, but resist the devil, and he will fly from you.

 

[BobCatholic]

which means God does fix the defects with the cooperation of the faithful.

So how do I get this help when I ask and God says no?

Supernatural grace is your resource.

How do I get this supernatural grace when I ask and God says no?

Surrender is both a military term and also applies to relationships. It is because love is demonstrated by engaging the devil in battle.

Yes, love is demonstrated by engaging the devil in battle, but without providing me with the proper weapons to do so, the result will be the same: failure, and only I am to blame since God is not responsible for anything, even though he was the one who made the decision to not provide me with the weapons to fight.

I ask for the spiritual weapons to fight the sin and imperfections, and nothing happens. Just a big juicy no. How is it loving to throw someone to the dogs without a weapon and then the dogs eat me alive?

When I got married, I did not expect my wife to surrender to me or her to surrender to me, we are not at war with each other. So the term “surrender” rubs me the wrong way, it is a war term and does not fit in a love relationship. The only person who is required to surrender is an enemy who has been totally vanquished in battle. And I don’t want to surrender to the devil! I am not at war with God and do not expect to surrender, when all I want to do is be in our Heavenly Father’s house.

 

[Vico]

So how do I get this help when I ask and God says no?

How do I get this supernatural grace when I ask and God says no?

Yes, love is demonstrated by engaging the devil in battle, but without providing me with the proper weapons to do so, the result will be the same: failure, and only I am to blame since God is not responsible for anything, even though he was the one who made the decision to not provide me with the weapons to fight.

I ask for the spiritual weapons to fight the sin and imperfections, and nothing happens. Just a big juicy no. How is it loving to throw someone to the dogs without a weapon and then the dogs eat me alive?

When I got married, I did not expect my wife to surrender to me or her to surrender to me, we are not at war with each other. So the term “surrender” rubs me the wrong way, it is a war term and does not fit in a love relationship. The only person who is required to surrender is an enemy who has been totally vanquished in battle. And I don’t want to surrender to the devil! I am not at war with God and do not expect to surrender, when all I want to do is be in our Heavenly Father’s house.

When a person sins mortally, that is fighting God. Charity is surrender from that war with God.

The Catholic Church teaches that sanctifying grace is given by the seven sacraments in two ways: valid reception of Baptism or Confession for those with original or mortal sins, and an increase of sanctifying grace for the remainder of the sacraments. Grace includes sanctifying grace, the infused virtues, the gifts of the Holy Spirit, and actual grace.

Modern Catholic Dictionary

Infused Virtues
A good habit of the mind or will given to the soul by God, and not acquired by the action of a human being. The theological virtues of faith, hope, and charity are always infused; the moral virtues are both acquired and infused.

Gifts of the Holy Spirit
The seven forms of supernatural initiative conferred with the reception of sanctifying grace. They are in the nature of supernatural reflexes, or reactive instincts, that spontaneously answer to the divine impulses of grace almost without reflection but always with full consent. The gifts are wisdom (sapientia), understanding (intellectus), knowledge (scientia), fortitude or courage (fortitudo), counsel (consilium), piety or love (pietas), and fear of the Lord (timor Domini).

Sacramental Grace
The grace conferred by the valid and fruitful reception of the sacraments. It may be one or more of several kinds: * 1. sanctifying grace is communicated in baptism, penance and in anointing of the sick when needed; * 2. sanctifying grace is always increased when a sacrament is received in the state of grace; * 3. actual grace is given by all the sacraments, either actually at the time of reception or also by title as a person needs divine help; * 4. the sacramental character is indelibly imprinted on the soul in baptism, confirmation, and the priesthood; and * 5. a distinctive sacramental grace is imparted by each of the seven sacraments, corresponding to their respective purpose in the supernatural life of the soul.

Actual Grace:
Temporary supernatural intervention by God to enlighten the mind or strengthen the will to perform supernatural actions that lead to heaven. Actual grace is therefore a transient divine assistance to enable man to obtain, retain, or grow in supernatural grace and the life of God.

Grace of Sanctification:
The supernatural gift whose purpose is the personal sanctification of the one who receives it. It is called the grace that makes one pleasing (gratia gratum faciens) to God either by making the person holy (sanctifying grace), or by preparing him for sanctification, or by preserving and increasing his sanctification (actual grace).

Sanctifying Grace:
The supernatural state of being infused by God, which permanently inheres in the soul. It is a vital principle of the supernatural life, as the rational soul is the vital principle of a human being’s natural life. It is not a substance but a real quality that becomes part of the soul substance. Although commonly associated with the possession of the virtue of charity, sanctifying grace is yet distinct from this virtue. Charity, rather, belongs to the will, whereas sanctifying grace belongs to the whole soul, mind, will, and affections. It is called sanctifying grace because it makes holy those who possess the gift by giving them a participation in the divine life. It is zoē (life), which Christ taught that he has in common with the Father and which those who are in the state of grace share

 

[BobCatholic]

When a person sins mortally, that is fighting God. Charity is surrender from that war with God.

Well, I’m at the point in my walk where mortal sins are handled by confession quickly

The Catholic Church teaches that sanctifying grace is given by the seven sacraments in two ways: valid reception of Baptism or Confession for those with original or mortal sins, and an increase of sanctifying grace for the remainder of the sacraments. Grace includes sanctifying grace, the infused virtues, the gifts of the Holy Spirit, and actual grace.

The only grace I see guaranteed in the sacraments is that of having one’s sins forgiven and being restored to a state of grace. The others are done only by God’s will. Totally arbitrary. The lucky people, who God wills, get it. I’m not lucky, so I don’t get it.

 

[Vico]

Well, I’m at the point in my walk where mortal sins are handled by confession quickly

The only grace I see guaranteed in the sacraments is that of having one’s sins forgiven and being restored to a state of grace. The others are done only by God’s will. Totally arbitrary. The lucky people, who God wills, get it. I’m not lucky, so I don’t get it.

The fruitfulness of the sacraments have a varying fruitfulness dependent upon the disposition, worthiness, and openness of the recipient. By analogy, the faithful must develop strong roots and ensure good soil. These are acts of will. (For example when confessing sins it is said: I firmly resolve, with the help of Thy grace, to sin no more and to avoid the near occasions of sin.)

Mark 4:

10 And when he was alone, those present along with the Twelve questioned him about the parables. 11 [d]He answered them, “The mystery of the kingdom of God has been granted to you. But to those outside everything comes in parables, 12 so that

‘they may look and see but not perceive,
and hear and listen but not understand,
in order that they may not be converted and be forgiven.’”
13 [e]Jesus said to them, “Do you not understand this parable? Then how will you understand any of the parables?

14 The sower sows the word. * 15 These are the ones on the path where the word is sown. As soon as they hear, Satan comes at once and takes away the word sown in them. * 16 And these are the ones sown on rocky ground who, when they hear the word, receive it at once with joy. 17 But they have no root; they last only for a time. Then when tribulation or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away. * 18 Those sown among thorns are another sort. They are the people who hear the word, 19 but worldly anxiety, the lure of riches, and the craving for other things intrude and choke the word, and it bears no fruit. * 20 But those sown on rich soil are the ones who hear the word and accept it and bear fruit thirty and sixty and a hundredfold.”
​

 

[BobCatholic]

The fruitfulness of the sacraments have a varying fruitfulness dependent upon the disposition, worthiness, and openness of the recipient. By analogy, the faithful must develop strong roots and ensure good soil. These are acts of will. (For example when confessing sins it is said: I firmly resolve, with the help of Thy grace, to sin no more and to avoid the near occasions of sin.)

Well, I will to go to Confession when I’m in mortal sin. And I not only pray that, I also add “I also add any sins I’ve forgotten and those I’ve redefined in error” to cover all the bases.

My will is disposed. God, on the other hand…is not disposed to help me get closer to him. He plays hard to get.

 

[Vico]

Well, I will to go to Confession when I’m in mortal sin. And I not only pray that, I also add “I also add any sins I’ve forgotten and those I’ve redefined in error” to cover all the bases.

My will is disposed. God, on the other hand…is not disposed to help me get closer to him. He plays hard to get.

Well God is disposed to help, that is what grace is. It is not easy, by design, because of temptation.

 

[BobCatholic]

. It is not easy, by design, because of temptation.

Not because of temptation, it is because God holds back.

 

[Vico]

Not because of temptation, it is because God holds back.

The grace is given and is sufficient, but the test to pass is the temptation. What is held back is the giving of glorification to one that has not given, which is actually justice.

2 Timothy 2
1 [a]So you, my child, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. 2 And what you heard from me through many witnesses entrust to faithful people who will have the ability to teach others as well. 3 Bear your share of hardship along with me like a good soldier of Christ Jesus. 4 To satisfy the one who recruited him, a soldier does not become entangled in the business affairs of life. 5 Similarly, an athlete cannot receive the winner’s crown except by competing according to the rules. 6 The hardworking farmer ought to have the first share of the crop. 7 Reflect on what I am saying, for the Lord will give you understanding in everything.

1 John 5
1 [a]Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is begotten by God, and everyone who loves the father loves [also] the one begotten by him. 2 In this way we know that we love the children of God when we love God and obey his commandments. 3 For the love of God is this, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome, 4 for whoever is begotten by God conquers the world. And the victory that conquers the world is our faith. 5 Who [indeed] is the victor over the world but the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

Crowns of Glory:

• 1 Cor. 9:24,25
• 1 Thess. 2:19, 20. & Dan 12:3
• James 1:12
• 2 Tim. 4:8
• 1 Pet. 5:1~4

 

[BobCatholic]

The grace is given and is sufficient, but the test to pass is the temptation. What is held back is the giving of glorification to one that has not given, which is actually justice.

No, what is held back is our redemption - Romans 8:23.

There’s a reason we are still held temporally responsible for other people’s sins. God held back.

 

[Vico]

No, what is held back is our redemption - Romans 8:23.

There’s a reason we are still held temporally responsible for other people’s sins. God held back.

Not so. We are not responsible for actual sins of others. We are liable to the consequences of Adam and Eve. Our redemption was not withheld:

Modern Catholic Dictionary:
“… the Passion of Christ was sufficient and superabundant satisfaction for human guilt and the consequent debt of punishment. His Passion was a kind of price or ransom that paid the cost of freeing humanity from both obligations. Christ rendered satisfaction, not by giving money, but by spending what was of the highest value. He gave himself, and therefore his Passion is called humanity’s Redemption. (Etym. Latin redemtio, a buying back, ransoming, redemption.)”

Regarding Romans 8:23, that is redemption of the body. Haydock Commentary has:

20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him, that made it subject in hope:

21 Because the creature also itself shall be delivered from the servitude of corruption, into the liberty of the glory of the children of God.

22 For we know that every creature groaneth, and is in labour even till now.

23 And not only it, but ourselves also, who have the first-fruits of the spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption of the sons of God, the redemption of our body.

– Other, by the creature or creatures, understand men only, and Christians, who groan under miseries and temptations in this mortal life, amidst the vanities of this world, under the slavery of corruption; who having already (ver. 23.) received the first-fruits of the Spirit,[3] the grace of God in baptism, have been made the children of God, and now, with expectation and great earnestness, wait and long for a more perfect adoption of the sons of God: for the redemption of their bodies, when the bodies, as well as the souls of the elect, shall rise to an immortal life, and complete happiness in heaven. (Witham)

 

[BobCatholic]

Not so. We are not responsible for actual sins of others. We are liable to the consequences of Adam and Eve. Our redemption was not withheld:

I did not say we are responsible for the sins of others. And neither does God.

But we are HELD TEMPORALLY RESPONSIBLE for the sins of others.

Here’s proof: Where are we located? Answer: Not in the Garden of Eden.

– Other, by the creature or creatures, understand men only, and Christians, who groan under miseries and temptations in this mortal life, amidst the vanities of this world, under the slavery of corruption; who having already (ver. 23.) received the first-fruits of the Spirit,[3] the grace of God in baptism, have been made the children of God, and now, with expectation and great earnestness, wait and long for a more perfect adoption of the sons of God: for the redemption of their bodies, when the bodies, as well as the souls of the elect, shall rise to an immortal life, and complete happiness in heaven. (Witham)

Precisely. While we are in this worthless body, we are not redeemed yet. Our redemption happens AFTER we die and rise.

In the meantime, God holds back.

If God was not holding back, please tell me how to go to heaven now. Not after I die.

 

[Vico]

I did not say we are responsible for the sins of others. And neither does God.

But we are HELD TEMPORALLY RESPONSIBLE for the sins of others.

Here’s proof: Where are we located? Answer: Not in the Garden of Eden.

Precisely. While we are in this worthless body, we are not redeemed yet. Our redemption happens AFTER we die and rise.

In the meantime, God holds back.

If God was not holding back, please tell me how to go to heaven now. Not after I die.

The point was that the redemption of Christ is of the spirit. That biblical quote is referring to the redemption of bodies, a different topic. God gave Adam and Eve supernatural and preternatural gifts, and a gift is additional to what is natural. We have no claim to those gifts, which were not given to us, rather we have what is natural. We are not responsible, even temporarily for the loss of a gift, but we have to deal with what is natural for a human creature. In that sense, it is said that we are liable for the sin of Adam and Eve, because ostensibly we all would have had the supernatural and preternatural gifts. However that is only for discussion, as God, so to say, knew they would fall. There is no heaven prior to the death of the body now nor was there heaven for Adam and Eve, even with the supernatural and preternatural gifts they had.

 

[BobCatholic]

The point was that the redemption of Christ is of the spirit. That biblical quote is referring to the redemption of bodies, a different topic.

Correct. God holds back on our bodies because he thinks the spiritual is so red alert important that he does not care about the temporal.

God gave Adam and Eve supernatural and preternatural gifts, and a gift is additional to what is natural.

Despite this, he created them imperfect, and those gifts were useless to overcome the imperfections.

We are not responsible, even temporarily for the loss of a gift,

Prove it. Please show me the location of the Garden of Eden and which flights I can take to go there. You can’t because there is no way for us to get into the Garden of Eden.

We are held temporally responsible for the sins of our ancestors.

In that sense, it is said that we are liable for the sin of Adam and Eve, because ostensibly we all would have had the supernatural and preternatural gifts. However that is only for discussion, as God, so to say, knew they would fall. There is no heaven prior to the death of the body now nor was there heaven for Adam and Eve, even with the supernatural and preternatural gifts they had.

God knew they would fail because he created them imperfect. They were set up to fail.

That’s how imperfections work. The question was not IF they would fail, but WHEN.