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BobCatholic
Guest
But not sufficient grace to cure concupiscence. That happens only after death if one is saved.
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rinnie
Guest
Just because we are all subject to sin, does not prove we will sin. We are subject to sin every single day. But the more we pray for the grace of God to not choose to commit that sin, we can beat the sin.I understand that this is part of your teaching but you need to provide a reasonable argument for it. All I am saying that a imperfect being is **eventually **subject to sin. I stress on “eventually” to convey this fact that everything is matter of time when it comes to committing a sin.
And I disagree with you that we all eventually convey to sin. Jesus called us to all be Saints, he would never put that on humans if it was not possible. If we fall it is because of our lust for sins that we let overcome our Love for God.
The argument is simple you have free will to choose to do the right thing or wrong. Why do you feel that we will eventually choose sin?
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STT
Guest
Well, the point I am making is that the sin is avoidable once you have enough grace otherwise we eventually forfeit because of Satan temptation and inner interest.Just because we are all subject to sin, does not prove we will sin. We are subject to sin every single day. But the more we pray for the grace of God to not choose to commit that sin, we can beat the sin.
And I disagree with you that we all eventually convey to sin. Jesus called us to all be Saints, he would never put that on humans if it was not possible. If we fall it is because of our lust for sins that we let overcome our Love for God.
The argument is simple you have free will to choose to do the right thing or wrong. Why do you feel that we will eventually choose sin?
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Vico
Guest
There is sufficient grace to overcome the temptation which concupiscence is, with the cooperation of the faithful with grace.But not sufficient grace to cure concupiscence. That happens only after death if one is saved.
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BobCatholic
Guest
If concupiscence is still existing, then the grace is not sufficient. That’s proof right there.There is sufficient grace to overcome the temptation which concupiscence is, with the cooperation of the faithful with grace.
If God refuses to remove imperfections, that’s insufficient grace.
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Vico
Guest
The sufficiency of grace is to allow one that cooperates to not sin mortally.If concupiscence is still existing, then the grace is not sufficient. That’s proof right there.
If God refuses to remove imperfections, that’s insufficient grace.
God does not remove all the temptation, but rather gives grace to a person, so that using their will, they may becomes Christlike. Imperfections are behavioral and culpability based upon free will, etc., so it requires the person to exert their will to express their charity.
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BobCatholic
Guest
So, basically speaking: concupiscence makes it easy to fall into sin, but to stay out of sin, we must exert great superhuman effort, leap tall buildings in a single bound…how does that make grace sufficient?The sufficiency of grace is to allow one that cooperates to not sin mortally.
God does not remove all the temptation, but rather gives grace to a person, so that using their will, they may becomes Christlike. Imperfections are behavioral and culpability based upon free will, etc., so it requires the person to exert their will to express their charity.
If the grace was sufficient, it would be just as easy to stay out of sin as it is to fall into sin. Instead, it is ridiculously easy to go to hell (just exist!) and horrendously difficult to get into heaven.
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Vico
Guest
To “leap tall buildings in a single bound” would be the preternatural power of levitation. Grace is not a preternatural power but a supernatural power.So, basically speaking: concupiscence makes it easy to fall into sin, but to stay out of sin, we must exert great superhuman effort, leap tall buildings in a single bound…how does that make grace sufficient?
If the grace was sufficient, it would be just as easy to stay out of sin as it is to fall into sin. Instead, it is ridiculously easy to go to hell (just exist!) and horrendously difficult to get into heaven.
Concupiscence is temptation, however it will be lesser or stronger influence in different people. Sufficient does not mean easy. The terms sufficient and efficacious are applied to grace, which when the person does not cooperate with the will to avoid sin, is called sufficient grace, but when the person does cooperate with the will to avoid sin, is called efficacious grace.
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BobCatholic
Guest
Sufficient is when it is equally easy to go to heaven and go to hell.Sufficient does not mean easy.
It is 23,409,693,271 times easier to go to hell than heaven. This huge lopsided difficulty is what makes me question the sufficiency of grace provided.
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davidv
Guest
As the math professor would say. Please show your work. How is this number computed?Sufficient is when it is equally easy to go to heaven and go to hell.
It is 23,409,693,271 times easier to go to hell than heaven. This huge lopsided difficulty is what makes me question the sufficiency of grace provided.
It appears that your conclusion is based on a false premise.
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Vico
Guest
But sufficiency is not defined that way.Sufficient is when it is equally easy to go to heaven and go to hell.
It is 23,409,693,271 times easier to go to hell than heaven. This huge lopsided difficulty is what makes me question the sufficiency of grace provided.
Definitions from Merriam Webster:
- easy – 1a. causing or involving little difficulty or discomfort.
- sufficient – 1a. enough to meet the needs of a situation or a proposed end
- The Human Will remains free under the influence of efficacious grace, which is not irresistible. (De fide.)
- There is a grace which is truly sufficient and yet remains inefficacious (gratia vere et mere sufficiens). (De fide.)
- God gives all the just sufficient grace (gratia proxime vel remote sufliciens) for the observation of the Divine Commandments. (De fide.)
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BobCatholic
Guest
I tell you what. Ask God how many souls are in heaven and how many in hell.As the math professor would say. Please show your work. How is this number computed?
It appears that your conclusion is based on a false premise.
I bet the numbers are lopsided in the wrong direction, which proves my point.
Universal salvation is not happening.
And when people are created imperfect, they make mistakes - sin. How are people supposed to cooperate when their imperfections get in the way?When a person willfully cooperates with grace and keeps that grace, then it is called efficacious grace. When a person does not cooperate, then it is called sufficient grace.
And how to get this grace?*]The Human Will remains free under the influence of efficacious grace, which is not irresistible. (De fide.)
And this is why people go to hell.*]There is a grace which is truly sufficient and yet remains inefficacious (gratia vere et mere sufficiens). (De fide.)
God’s “sufficient grace” is a fragile glass of water, being held by a runner running the race. As he runs, he spills water (grace) and eventually empties the glass, requiring him to refill (confession). If he gets to the finish line with an empty glass, elevator down.*]God gives all the just sufficient grace (gratia proxime vel remote sufliciens) for the observation of the Divine Commandments. (De fide.)
The problem is that the runner is blind and does not see how much water is in the glass.
God did not give us a fuel gauge for our level of grace, so there is no way to know if we even have sufficient grace at all! We may be running on empty and not even know it!
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davidv
Guest
How does this explain how you got the number reported in post #169?I tell you what. Ask God how many souls are in heaven and how many in hell.
I bet the numbers are lopsided in the wrong direction, which proves my point.
Universal salvation is not happening.
And when people are created imperfect, they make mistakes - sin. How are people supposed to cooperate when their imperfections get in the way?
And how to get this grace?
And this is why people go to hell.
God’s “sufficient grace” is a fragile glass of water, being held by a runner running the race. As he runs, he spills water (grace) and eventually empties the glass, requiring him to refill (confession). If he gets to the finish line with an empty glass, elevator down.
The problem is that the runner is blind and does not see how much water is in the glass.
God did not give us a fuel gauge for our level of grace, so there is no way to know if we even have sufficient grace at all! We may be running on empty and not even know it!
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fbl9
Guest
Salvation is universal but universal salvation is not imposed.I tell you what. Ask God how many souls are in heaven and how many in hell.
I bet the numbers are lopsided in the wrong direction, which proves my point.
Universal salvation is not happening.
And when people are created imperfect, they make mistakes - sin. How are people supposed to cooperate when their imperfections get in the way?
And how to get this grace?
And this is why people go to hell.
God’s “sufficient grace” is a fragile glass of water, being held by a runner running the race. As he runs, he spills water (grace) and eventually empties the glass, requiring him to refill (confession). If he gets to the finish line with an empty glass, elevator down.
The problem is that the runner is blind and does not see how much water is in the glass.
God did not give us a fuel gauge for our level of grace, so there is no way to know if we even have sufficient grace at all! We may be running on empty and not even know it!
You already know how; repent and strive for better.
I don’t know but it is just there.
No grace doesn’t send people to hell Wrote in the new testament one writer says where sin abounds so does grace, but this does not mean we should go on sinning. In writing this the writer recognizes that we can sin after receiving grace.The remedy for sin is repentance and where does repentance come from? Grace!
Your analogy fails for if the runner seeks repentance he knows the glass is empty thus he is not as blind as you think he be.
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BobCatholic
Guest
Educated guess.How does this explain how you got the number reported in post #169?
It is ridiculously easy to go to hell, and horrifically difficult to go to heaven.
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davidv
Guest
Not according to Church teaching, which I will take over guess’s every time.Educated guess.
It is ridiculously easy to go to hell, and horrifically difficult to go to heaven.
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Vico
Guest
Mathew 7 (NABRE):Educated guess.
It is ridiculously easy to go to hell, and horrifically difficult to go to heaven.
13 “Enter through the narrow gate;[h] for the gate is wide and the road broad that leads to destruction, and those who enter through it are many. 14 How narrow the gate and constricted the road that leads to life. And those who find it are few.
Matthew 7 (DRC):
13 Enter ye in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and many there are who go in thereat. 14 How narrow is the gate, and strait is the way that leadeth to life: and few there are that find it!
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BobCatholic
Guest
When one is created imperfect, and those imperfections cause them to sin, those imperfections are IMPOSED without their consent.Salvation is universal but universal salvation is not imposed.
So the only way to truly, AND SUFFICIENTLY, balance the scales, is that universal salvation should be imposed.
But that’s not how God works.
So, the scales are lopsided out of balance and how does one get saved?
He doesn’t know the glass is empty. So he refills whenever he can. This is why we get people with scrupulosity.Your analogy fails for if the runner seeks repentance he knows the glass is empty thus he is not as blind as you think he be.
Tell me, how does one know they are in a state of grace? Especially if one is fooling themselves? Or is so imperfect they can’t figure it out?
God did not provide a fuel gauge for grace levels.
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BobCatholic
Guest
Really?Not according to Church teaching, which I will take over guess’s every time.
Please tell me where the Church has taught it is easy to go to heaven. Where did the Church ever mention the ratio of saved to damned? Did the Church even post numbers somewhere of how many saved in heaven versus damned?
The answer is “no” to all of the above.
And this proves my point. It is horrifically difficult to get into heaven, while it is ridiculously easy to get damned.Mathew 7 (NABRE):
13 “Enter through the narrow gate;[h] for the gate is wide and the road broad that leads to destruction, and those who enter through it are many. 14 How narrow the gate and constricted the road that leads to life. And those who find it are few.
Matthew 7 (DRC):
13 Enter ye in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and many there are who go in thereat. 14 How narrow is the gate, and strait is the way that leadeth to life: and few there are that find it!
The scales are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay out of balance here.
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davidv
Guest
Which is why your number that was posted a while back is meaningless.Really?
Please tell me where the Church has taught it is easy to go to heaven. Where did the Church ever mention the ratio of saved to damned? Did the Church even post numbers somewhere of how many saved in heaven versus damned?
The answer is “no” to all of the above.
And this proves my point. It is horrifically difficult to get into heaven, while it is ridiculously easy to get damned.
Only if you choose to go it alone.The scales are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay out of balance here.
Jesus said, "For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.”
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