God gives grace to the angels and some fell. Not only does God give the grace to humans like he does to angels, but a human can have the entire period of life to repent!Precisely. God gives the angel that special grace, that allows an angel make a decision for God and for good forever without wavering. I don’t have that grace (otherwise OSAS would be true).
Dogma of Faith, from Chap. 16. The Fruit of Justipration, that is, the Merit of Good, SESSION VI (Jan. 13, 1547) Decree On Justification, The Council of Trent:Precisely. God gives the angel that special grace, that allows an angel make a decision for God and for good forever without wavering. I don’t have that grace (otherwise OSAS would be true).
This is strange to me. How one could have any free will if it receives a grace that makes them to make a decision in a specific circumstances forever?Precisely. God gives the angel that special grace, that allows an angel make a decision for God and for good forever without wavering. I don’t have that grace (otherwise OSAS would be true).
CatechismThis is strange to me. How one could have any free will if it receives a grace that makes them to make a decision in a specific circumstances forever?
This obviously doesn’t make any sense. How they could sin if they cannot?Catechism
393 It is the irrevocable character of their choice, and not a defect in the infinite divine mercy, that makes the angels’ sin unforgivable. “There is no repentance for the angels after their fall, just as there is no repentance for men after death.” 272
272 St. John Damascene, De Fide orth. 2,4: PG 94,877.
i am way past my league.Catechism
393 It is the irrevocable character of their choice, and not a defect in the infinite divine mercy, that makes the angels’ sin unforgivable. “There is no repentance for the angels after their fall, just as there is no repentance for men after death.” 272
272 St. John Damascene, De Fide orth. 2,4: PG 94,877.
Where is it stated that they cannot sin?This obviously doesn’t make any sense. How they could sin if they cannot?
The irrevocable character is the characteristic of being final.i am way past my league.
What is meant by the character of their choice?
Their choice being not desiring to be with God by not serving Him?
God is Goodness, Love and Truth. If one does not serve Him, one can’t but perish in suffering, chasing illusions, the reward, eternity with oneself rather than in the Beatific Vision. As the Son gives Himself totally to the Father, and in Jesus reveals the nature of God, all creation doing likewise, through Him, is brought into the Trinity. The Angels made an instantaneous decision upon their creation. We who are composed of time and space, do so over the course of our lives.. . .Their choice being not desiring to be with God by not serving Him?
They cannot change their minds forever.Where is it stated that they cannot sin?
Angels have no bodies, so they cannot acquire knowledge; they need infused knowledge. Whereas you and I learn each day and extrapolate more from that knowledge, angels know everything at the moment of their creation. They knowledge is gained all at once, and their will makes one choice that laste for all eternity. In other words, angels cannot change their minds after they have made a decision. Unfortunately, some of the angels in heaven made the decision to turn away from God.They cannot change their minds forever.
How do you** know** that?They cannot change their minds forever.
Imagine someone was an alcoholic for many years. One day he hits bottom and asks God to heal of him of his alcoholism, because he does not want to drink alcohol anymore… Let’s now say this was a miraculous cure. He no longer wants to drink alcohol. So he no longer chooses to drink alcohol.This is strange to me. How one could have any free will if it receives a grace that makes them to make a decision in a specific circumstances forever?
Do you mean they cannot keep changing their minds for all eternity? (which seems reasonable.) Or “They cannot change their minds at all once they have made their decision?”(which is what “they cannot sin” implies)?They cannot change their minds forever.
I don’t know and I don’t think that the concept is consistent with free will. That is what Vico brought up from CCC.How do you** know** that?
Well, there are not under influence of Satan temptation so that can be easy to stay with God forever. Poor Adam and Eve. By the way, why God did allow Satan to have access to the Garden knowing that they would fall under Satan’s temptation?Imagine someone was an alcoholic for many years. One day he hits bottom and asks God to heal of him of his alcoholism, because he does not want to drink alcohol anymore… Let’s now say this was a miraculous cure. He no longer wants to drink alcohol. So he no longer chooses to drink alcohol.
Was his free will compromised? Or when he asked for the healing, that entailed taking away the desire for alcohol and thus that one door was closed?
The answer is that his free will was not compromised. He made the choice to ask God to heal him. The healing entailed taking away his desire to drink alcohol.
In the same way, when an angel is created, God gives them a choice - him or the other guy. Full information is given. Then the angel chooses God, and is firmly in God’s camp and cannot switch sides. Is his free will compromised? No. He asked to join willingly and is given the grace to never turn away again. The angel wants God, and not the other guy. Because of that desire, the choice is made to never turn away.
To be honest I don’t understand this at all. All Angels were given gift of grace and some fell. The rest however stays with God forever. That seems contradictory to me.Do you mean they cannot keep changing their minds for all eternity? (which seems reasonable.) Or “They cannot change their minds at all once they have made their decision?”(which is what “they cannot sin” implies)?
Well, if one is under the thumb of a megalomaniac dictator (the devil), how is one free? If one is freed of that dictator, then one is truly free.Well, there are not under influence of Satan temptation so that can be easy to stay with God forever. Poor Adam and Eve.
I got a different question: Why did God create Adam and Eve imperfect in the first place? (they had the imperfection of pride, fear, stupidity or naivete)By the way, why God did allow Satan to have access to the Garden knowing that they would fall under Satan’s temptation?
From Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, p. 240:Where did it say they were capable of handling the situation? They were clearly created imperfect. They either had the imperfection of pride, fear, stupidity, naivete or other imperfections. With those imperfections, it was a matter of time before one of them manifested into sin. Buggy software will eventually error out or crash. The question is not if, the question is when.