Is our free choice real

[Vico]

Correct. God holds back on our bodies because he thinks the spiritual is so red alert important that he does not care about the temporal.

Despite this, he created them imperfect, and those gifts were useless to overcome the imperfections.

Prove it. Please show me the location of the Garden of Eden and which flights I can take to go there. You can’t because there is no way for us to get into the Garden of Eden.

We are held temporally responsible for the sins of our ancestors.

God knew they would fail because he created them imperfect. They were set up to fail.

That’s how imperfections work. The question was not IF they would fail, but WHEN.

There is no question outstanding about being created perfect or imperfect.

It is natural to suffer and we are not preserved from those sufferings having not inherited the supernatural and preternatural gifts that Adam and Eve were given, but this is not our fault (we are not responsible defined as - Merriam-Webster 1b: “liable to be called to account as the primary cause, motive, or agent.”).

God gave them gifts and the sanctifying grace was sufficient to keep them in grace. Only by free will it was lost by them.

God also knew in advance, so to speak, when the fall would occur, so there also was no question of if or when.

 

[BobCatholic]

There is no question outstanding about being created perfect or imperfect.

It is natural to suffer and we are not preserved from those sufferings having not inherited the supernatural and preternatural gifts that Adam and Eve were given, but this is not our fault (we are not responsible defined as - Merriam-Webster 1b: “liable to be called to account as the primary cause, motive, or agent.”).

I agree, it is not our fault that Adam and Eve failed.

Then why are we held temporally responsible for their sin? You will notice we don’t live in the Garden of Eden. The punishments imposed by God on them are also on us as well. We have to labor to survive, women have increased labor pains, and suffering abounds.

God gave them gifts and the sanctifying grace was sufficient to keep them in grace. Only by free will it was lost by them.

No, not by “free will” but also by imperfections - they were naive or stupid or prideful or fearful, or some combination of the above. The imperfections reduced or eliminated their free will to the point it was pretty much a set up for failure. The question was not IF they’d sin, but WHEN. It was only a matter of time before the software crashed.

 

[Vico]

I agree, it is not our fault that Adam and Eve failed.

Then why are we held temporally responsible for their sin? You will notice we don’t live in the Garden of Eden. The punishments imposed by God on them are also on us as well. We have to labor to survive, women have increased labor pains, and suffering abounds.

No, not by “free will” but also by imperfections - they were naive or stupid or prideful or fearful, or some combination of the above. The imperfections reduced or eliminated their free will to the point it was pretty much a set up for failure. The question was not IF they’d sin, but WHEN. It was only a matter of time before the software crashed.

I commented on this in the other thread you are on. Since all that was lost by Adam and Eve were gifts and therefore not something that have by right, to not have them is not a matter of injustice. There were only temporarily avoiding what is natural by enjoying gifts. It was not if or when, is was known, so to speak. We do not have the gifts by right, be can be happy that God has give us grace.

The Church teaches us that this is not true: “The imperfections reduced or eliminated their free will to the point it was pretty much a set up for failure”. Adam and Eve did not experience concupiscence. The failure was pride freely chosen. Since the consequences were loss of sanctifying grace that they had, it was also what is called mortal sin. Mortal sin must be voluntary to be such, because of justice.

 

[fbl9]

I commented on this in the other thread you are on. Since all that was lost by Adam and Eve were gifts and therefore not something that have by right, to not have them is not a matter of injustice. There were only temporarily avoiding what is natural by enjoying gifts. It was not if or when, is was known, so to speak. We do not have the gifts by right, be can be happy that God has give us grace.

The Church teaches us that this is not true: “The imperfections reduced or eliminated their free will to the point it was pretty much a set up for failure”. Adam and Eve did not experience concupiscence. The failure was pride freely chosen. Since the consequences were loss of sanctifying grace that they had, it was also what is called mortal sin. Mortal sin must be voluntary to be such, because of justice.

j

 

[BobCatholic]

I commented on this in the other thread you are on. Since all that was lost by Adam and Eve were gifts and therefore not something that have by right, to not have them is not a matter of injustice.

The matter of injustice is holding everyone else responsible for their sins temporally.

The Church teaches us that this is not true: “The imperfections reduced or eliminated their free will to the point it was pretty much a set up for failure”. Adam and Eve did not experience concupiscence.

No, they experienced imperfections which led to them failing. They were stupid, naive, prideful or fearful or some combination of any or all of the above. Or more defects were in the code.

Buggy software will eventually fail, the question is not if, but when. So when they failed, why was God surprised? He didn’t create them perfect.

Imagine a programmer who writes buggy code, then throws the computer out the window because the program is not running correctly. You wouldn’t think very highly of that programmer. So why did God act that way? God is not responsible for anything.

He should have given them a second chance, and taught them (fixed the programming).

The failure was pride freely chosen.

The imperfection of pride led to the sin of pride. All it was, was a matter of time before it happened. There was nothing to stop it, no compensating code, no debugger running, nothing to stop it. Since they were created imperfect, the code will crash, just a matter of time.

 

[Vico]

The matter of injustice is holding everyone else responsible for their sins temporally.

No, they experienced imperfections which led to them failing. They were stupid, naive, prideful or fearful or some combination of any or all of the above. Or more defects were in the code.

Buggy software will eventually fail, the question is not if, but when. So when they failed, why was God surprised? He didn’t create them perfect.

Imagine a programmer who writes buggy code, then throws the computer out the window because the program is not running correctly. You wouldn’t think very highly of that programmer. So why did God act that way? God is not responsible for anything.

He should have given them a second chance, and taught them (fixed the programming).

The imperfection of pride led to the sin of pride. All it was, was a matter of time before it happened. There was nothing to stop it, no compensating code, no debugger running, nothing to stop it. Since they were created imperfect, the code will crash, just a matter of time.

In your statements you make God responsible for “holding everyone else responsible for their [Adam and Eve] sins temporally.” yet you are saying “God is not responsible for anything.” so do you mean that God is not responsible to any being outside Himself although you personally hold him responsible for injustice to mankind since Adam?

Recall that the God’s absolute goodness is a dogmatic teaching of the Catholic Church and that goodness includes being just.

There is not a question of perfection here. God gave Adam and Eve supernatural and preternatural gifts. With these gifts they could have not sinned mortally. It is not unjust to not give a gift to the ancestors of Adam and Eve. (Recall the parable of the workers in the vineyard.)

 

[BobCatholic]

In your statements you make God responsible for “holding everyone else responsible for their [Adam and Eve] sins temporally.” yet you are saying “God is not responsible for anything.”

Correct. God is not responsible for anything. I think this is wrong. As a moral actor, he is responsible for his actions. The people on this forum deny this. I’m not sure, but I think the Church denies this.

Instead, responsibility is only placed on the weak, the mortal, the human race, nobody else. Can’t blame satan, can’t blame the powerful God, who created man imperfectly.

If God wanted to create people imperfectly, that’s fine, but where I think this is wrong is that we are held temporally responsible for actions done under the influence of imperfections that we have no choice but to have.

Recall that the God’s absolute goodness is a dogmatic teaching of the Catholic Church and that goodness includes being just.

Then how is it just to temporally hold us responsible for the sins of our ancestors?
How is it just to create people imperfect, then they fail (it is only a matter of time before imperfect things fail) and then punish them for the failures because of the bugs in the software that God did not bother to fix?

There is not a question of perfection here. God gave Adam and Eve supernatural and preternatural gifts.

Adam and Eve were not perfect. If they were, they would never have fallen.

Those gifts were not enough to overcome their imperfections. If they were enough, we’d be in the Garden of Eden still.

The solution to bugs in software is to fix them. The solution to imperfections is to fix them. Only God can do that and he chose not to. Then punishes people.

Look, I get it. We are human beings and are moral actors thus we are morally responsible for our actions. But if we had no choice but to fail, because we are imperfect, and those imperfections are not removed, then where do we draw the line between our bad decision making based on imperfections and God refusing to remove those imperfections - per the request of the imperfect human?

Can’t say that removing imperfections is a denial of free will, when the request to remove defects was made by the human using the same free will. An alcoholic who asks God to take alcoholism away from him and God refuses, will continue abusing alcohol.

“Without me, you can do nothing” - but yet with him saying no, one can do nothing.

 

[Vico]

Correct. God is not responsible for anything. I think this is wrong. As a moral actor, he is responsible for his actions. The people on this forum deny this. I’m not sure, but I think the Church denies this.

Instead, responsibility is only placed on the weak, the mortal, the human race, nobody else. Can’t blame satan, can’t blame the powerful God, who created man imperfectly.

If God wanted to create people imperfectly, that’s fine, but where I think this is wrong is that we are held temporally responsible for actions done under the influence of imperfections that we have no choice but to have.

Then how is it just to temporally hold us responsible for the sins of our ancestors?
How is it just to create people imperfect, then they fail (it is only a matter of time before imperfect things fail) and then punish them for the failures because of the bugs in the software that God did not bother to fix?

Adam and Eve were not perfect. If they were, they would never have fallen.

Those gifts were not enough to overcome their imperfections. If they were enough, we’d be in the Garden of Eden still.

The solution to bugs in software is to fix them. The solution to imperfections is to fix them. Only God can do that and he chose not to. Then punishes people.

Look, I get it. We are human beings and are moral actors thus we are morally responsible for our actions. But if we had no choice but to fail, because we are imperfect, and those imperfections are not removed, then where do we draw the line between our bad decision making based on imperfections and God refusing to remove those imperfections - per the request of the imperfect human?

Can’t say that removing imperfections is a denial of free will, when the request to remove defects was made by the human using the same free will. An alcoholic who asks God to take alcoholism away from him and God refuses, will continue abusing alcohol.

“Without me, you can do nothing” - but yet with him saying no, one can do nothing.

God creates each human without grace and with all the inherent sufferings of bodily earthly life. That is not unjust. That there is suffering is good, as related in James 1:2-4:
“2 My brethren, count it all joy, when you shall fall into divers temptations; 3 Knowing that the trying of your faith worketh patience. 4 And patience hath a perfect work; that you may be perfect and entire, failing in nothing.”

We need grace to turn to God so God makes the first move towards us with actual grace, even before conversion. This is to overcome the human nature. The use of that grace takes our free will.

Look at what St. Thomas Aquinas wrote in Summa Theologica about the angels, in Part I, Question 62. The perfection of the angels in the order of grace and of glory, Article 1. Whether the angels were created in beatitude?

Now it was shown above (I:12:5), when we were treating of God’s knowledge, that to see God in His essence, wherein the ultimate beatitude of the rational creature consists, is beyond the nature of every created intellect. Consequently no rational creature can have the movement of the will directed towards such beatitude, except it be moved thereto by a supernatural agent. This is what we call the help of grace. Therefore it must be said that an angel could not of his own will be turned to such beatitude, except by the help of grace.

newadvent.org/summa/1062.htm

 

[BobCatholic]

God creates each human without grace and with all the inherent sufferings of bodily earthly life. That is not unjust. That there is suffering is good, as related in James 1:2-4:

If suffering is good then pleasure is evil, and we must become puritans.

If suffering is good, nobody should be allowed to be exempt from suffering. But there are plenty of people that God blesses abundantly like that and protects them from evil.

Just not me. I’m not allowed to be protected from evil.

We need grace to turn to God so God makes the first move towards us with actual grace, even before conversion. This is to overcome the human nature. The use of that grace takes our free will.

What if God won’t give me the grace? I’m still imperfect.

What if I ask God for help to overcome my imperfections and sinful ways? And he says no? Then what? I’m royally screwed!!

 

[Vico]

If suffering is good then pleasure is evil, and we must become puritans.

If suffering is good, nobody should be allowed to be exempt from suffering. But there are plenty of people that God blesses abundantly like that and protects them from evil.

Just not me. I’m not allowed to be protected from evil.

What if God won’t give me the grace? I’m still imperfect.

What if I ask God for help to overcome my imperfections and sinful ways? And he says no? Then what? I’m royally screwed!!

We must be humble for we are all sinners: God have mercy on me a sinner!

One cannot conclude the suffering is good to the exclusion of pleasure. Inordinate pleasure is what is to be avoided.

God always gives the actual grace of conversion and sufficient grace to those that are in a state of grace. Only those that have chosen mortal sin are excluded. God does not say no to the repentant and contrite.

The sufferings are those inherent in bodily earthly life (e.g., disease, old age, death) but will vary based upon the actions of an individual and also if God wants to make an example of healing (such as the man born blind).

 

[BobCatholic]

We must be humble for we are all sinners: God have mercy on me a sinner!

I love the Jesus prayer!

God does not say no to the repentant and contrite.

Except me. I keep asking to have my imperfections removed so I can be a better person and make him happy. He says no.

So I’m stuck and can’t follow that command to be perfect, so what hope do I have?

 

[Aloysium]

I love the Jesus prayer!

Except me. I keep asking to have my imperfections removed so I can be a better person and make him happy. He says no.

So I’m stuck and can’t follow that command to be perfect, so what hope do I have?

Your hope lies in Jesus and His mercy.

 

[Vico]

I love the Jesus prayer!

Except me. I keep asking to have my imperfections removed so I can be a better person and make him happy. He says no.

So I’m stuck and can’t follow that command to be perfect, so what hope do I have?

Grace is what God gives, the individual must use will with that grace to remove the imperfections in thought, word, and deed.

Are you speaking of willing to do evil even with grace?

 

[BobCatholic]

Your hope lies in Jesus and His mercy.

And I need that all the time.

Grace is what God gives, the individual must use will with that grace to remove the imperfections in thought, word, and deed.

With me being imperfect, how can I use my imperfect will to become perfect, if God won’t give me the grace?

Are you speaking of willing to do evil even with grace?

With imperfections, the question is not if I’ll fail, but when. It is only a matter of time. Unless God gives me the grace to overcome my imperfections, by actually fixing the imperfections, I’m pretty much doomed to fail again and again.

So, since failure is guaranteed after enough time, where is my free choice?

 

[Aloysium]

. . . where is my free choice?

Do you give up? Do you continue to do God’s will?

I would focus less on my successes and failures.
He made me; He knows what He is doing. I don’t.

 

[Vico]

And I need that all the time.

With me being imperfect, how can I use my imperfect will to become perfect, if God won’t give me the grace?

With imperfections, the question is not if I’ll fail, but when. It is only a matter of time. Unless God gives me the grace to overcome my imperfections, by actually fixing the imperfections, I’m pretty much doomed to fail again and again.

So, since failure is guaranteed after enough time, where is my free choice?

It is not necessary to eliminate the imperfections in human nature, however God compensates for human nature by supernatural grace. Supernatural means beyond nature. It is not withing a human’s capacity to escape sin without the help of God, so we need the supernatural. It is not inevitable to fail, once you have supernatural grace, it is possible to maintain it for the rest of your life. I added this to the other thread, a Catholic dogma of faith is:

God gives all the just sufficent grace (gratia proxime vel remote sufficiens) for the observation of the Divine Commandments. (De fide.)

 

[BobCatholic]

Do you give up?

I hate the other guy! I don’t want him!

Do you continue to do God’s will?

How when I don’t know what it is?

I would focus less on my successes and failures.
He made me; He knows what He is doing. I don’t.

It is not necessary to eliminate the imperfections in human nature,

Purgatory says otherwise.

. It is not withing a human’s capacity to escape sin without the help of God, so we need the supernatural.

If God says no to help, then what?

It is not inevitable to fail, once you have supernatural grace, it is possible to maintain it for the rest of your life.

And am I guaranteed to get this grace?

How many people have received the grace of final perseverance?

 

[Vico]

I hate the other guy! I don’t want him!
How when I don’t know what it is?
I would focus less on my successes and failures.
He made me; He knows what He is doing. I don’t.
Purgatory says otherwise.
If God says no to help, then what?
And am I guaranteed to get this grace?
How many people have received the grace of final perseverance?

The number of saints is not known but is great.
God does not deny grace to those that are properly disposed to receive it, and that does not require perfection.
Human nature is good, but not perfect. It is not necessary to perfect human nature to be saved, for one will first be in purgatory and then in heaven. Souls are purged or purified from all their stains in purgatory.

God’s will is to do as Jesus stated in the Gospel which is taught by the Catholic Church, so you can know it from the teachings of the Chuch: to have faith and not sin mortally. It is good to do penance and pray for others.

 

[BobCatholic]

God does not deny grace to those that are properly disposed to receive it, and that does not require perfection.

Then I must be a horrible person if I"m denied the grace to overcome my imperfections

It is not necessary to perfect human nature to be saved, for one will first be in purgatory and then in heaven. Souls are purged or purified from all their stains in purgatory.

But I don’t want to go to purgatory. It is a horrible place. I must be perfect now!

God’s will is to do as Jesus stated in the Gospel which is taught by the Catholic Church, so you can know it from the teachings of the Chuch: to have faith and not sin mortally. It is good to do penance and pray for others.

I do this, but it is not enough. I still get punished.

 

[Vico]

Then I must be a horrible person if I"m denied the grace to overcome my imperfections

But I don’t want to go to purgatory. It is a horrible place. I must be perfect now!

I do this, but it is not enough. I still get punished.

I have to come back to the same question again then, do you think your sins have been absolved?

If the answer is yes, then you have the grace of God.

What punishment are you referring to?