Is our free choice real

  • Thread starter Thread starter Cristo
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
well if you didn’t have faith why are you trying to get closer?
seen/heard of anybody casting trees into the sea lately?
I want to get closer to God because the other guy (devil) is horrible.
well Bob you are the one claiming fail because the God you are trying to get closer to is not god the vending machine.
Never said he was a vending machine. But if God made promises, I expect him to keep them. Clearly he made no promise to take care of our temporal needs.
Now you are saying what God has made and said is good is garbage?
No Bob it’s not expecting, it is with a sad heart knowing they won’t be in the garden with Him.
God said it was good, he didn’t say it was perfect. One can be good without being perfect. But that’s not good enough for heaven.

I agree, he was sad that the children won’t join them in the garden, but his original plan was that they would be.
Maybe in your mind Bob, But I have read posts that you have made about God, and you are much closer to God then you think. Actually you seem to have more knowledge of God then people who claim to have this personal relationship with him.
I believe I am fooling myself. My imperfections are so great that I don’t think I am reasoning properly. I can’t understand God, I can’t relate to him, so how on earth am I closer to him? I’m light years away from even thinking of having a personal relationship with God.
My Dad always told me the People who are the closest with God seem to be the most unhappy in this world.
Agreed “if this is the way you treat your friends, no wonder you have so few.”
It is the devil who wants to get between you and God because he knows your love for God. ANd God knows your love for him, and trusts that Love to beat the devil. God will let the Devil tempt you and test you, but remember in the end God always wins. You have to just keep trust in him no matter what. What reward would your faith be, if God gave you everything and did not test that faith. God is never late.
I think the test is too hard. I can’t handle the test.

If one wants to go to hell, just exist. If one wants to go to heaven, one has to endure horrific suffering and pain. The scales are way out of balance!!
A Catholic dogma of faith is
  • The three Divine or Theological Virtues of Faith, Hope and Charity are infused with Sanctifying grace.
It is from the Council of Trent:
In justification, man receives simultaneously with the remission of sins all the three virtues of faith, hope and charity, which are infused by Jesus Christ in him in whom He is implanted . (Denzinger, Sources of Catholic Dogma, 800)
So, how do I get the virtues of faith, hope and charity?

I asked for faith, and I’m stuck without it.
I asked for hope, don’t got it.
I asked for charity, and there’s a tiny flicker of it - maybe I’m fooling myself that I even have this.
 
If one had eternal life (going to heaven) they’re also endowed with perfection, which takes away the will to sin. When one is perfect, they DO NOT WANT to sin. I can imagine them saying something like “why would I want to stick my tongue on a frozen lamp post?” when it comes to doing sin.
Just because someone is made perfect in no way takes away their free will to sin. They still can choose sin over GOD. The devil was made perfect and chose sin, Adam and Eve did not have sin and they chose to sin. If they did not sin they would still be in paradise.
 
The devil was made perfect and chose sin, Adam and Eve did not have sin and they chose to sin. If they did not sin they would still be in paradise.
The devil was NOT created perfect. He had the imperfection of pride. That is obvious beyond belief.

Adam and Eve were not created perfect either. They had imperfections of pride, naivete, fear, ignorance or stupidity.
 
I want to get closer to God because the other guy (devil) is horrible.

Never said he was a vending machine. But if God made promises, I expect him to keep them. Clearly he made no promise to take care of our temporal needs.

God said it was good, he didn’t say it was perfect. One can be good without being perfect. But that’s not good enough for heaven.

I agree, he was sad that the children won’t join them in the garden, but his original plan was that they would be.

I believe I am fooling myself. My imperfections are so great that I don’t think I am reasoning properly. I can’t understand God, I can’t relate to him, so how on earth am I closer to him? I’m light years away from even thinking of having a personal relationship with God.

Agreed “if this is the way you treat your friends, no wonder you have so few.”

I think the test is too hard. I can’t handle the test.

If one wants to go to hell, just exist. If one wants to go to heaven, one has to endure horrific suffering and pain. The scales are way out of balance!!

So, how do I get the virtues of faith, hope and charity?

I asked for faith, and I’m stuck without it.
I asked for hope, don’t got it.
I asked for charity, and there’s a tiny flicker of it - maybe I’m fooling myself that I even have this./QUOTE

No Bob it has nothing at all how you treat your friends or how God treats us. People who Love God and live for him, see how people treat others in this world and are not happy in this world.

They never seem to get much happiness or peace because they see so much more evil then the good in this world.

They do not rejoice in others unhappiness, they suffer with others.
 
The devil was NOT created perfect. He had the imperfection of pride. That is obvious beyond belief.

Adam and Eve were not created perfect either. They had imperfections of pride, naivete, fear, ignorance or stupidity.
No Bob God created all of us in the image of himself. Adam and Eve were created in the image of God. God created them good. It was because of their own free will that they chose to sin and disobey God. God did not create them to sin and disobey him.

If Adam and Eve were not created free from sin then they would not be in the garden of eden. IF they were everything you claim they were, then why did God wait to throw them out of the garden?

If the Devil was always evil, why did God throw it out of heaven only after he sinned?
 
No Bob God created all of us in the image of himself. Adam and Eve were created in the image of God. God created them good. It was because of their own free will that they chose to sin and disobey God. God did not create them to sin and disobey him.
God created them good, but they were not created perfect.
If Adam and Eve were not created free from sin then they would not be in the garden of eden. IF they were everything you claim they were, then why did God wait to throw them out of the garden?
I’d ask why God created them imperfect.
If the Devil was always evil, why did God throw it out of heaven only after he sinned?
I’d ask why God created him imperfect.

When one is imperfect, the question is not IF one will fall, but WHEN. It is only a matter of time. Buggy software will crash.
 
No Bob it has nothing at all how you treat your friends or how God treats us. People who Love God and live for him, see how people treat others in this world and are not happy in this world.

They never seem to get much happiness or peace because they see so much more evil then the good in this world.

They do not rejoice in others unhappiness, they suffer with others.
People who love God are not supposed to be happy in this world. They must carry their cross. That’s the catch.
 
God created them good, but they were not created perfect.

I’d ask why God created them imperfect.

I’d ask why God created him imperfect.

When one is imperfect, the question is not IF one will fall, but WHEN. It is only a matter of time. Buggy software will crash.
Bob I think it is better if you go back and read the beginning in the bible.

It says God created mans soul to his own image. (before we argue here do you agree the image of God is good and perfect (perfect means without sin). It says God gave Man free will, and tempered all his notions and appitites so as to subject them at all times to the dictates of reason. He gave them original righteousness and gave them dominion over all animals. This is the teaching of the CC.

Original righteousness means no sin.
 
People who love God are not supposed to be happy in this world. They must carry their cross. That’s the catch.
This is is not true/

Romans says we will find happiness when we believe and trust in the Lord.

Prov. is full of reasons.

We will find happiness when we help the poor.
We will find happiness when we trust in the Lord.
We will find happiness when we keep Gods law/

James says we will find happiness if we endure.

God tells us we can all find happiness if we do not look for it in the things of the world.

My Dad always told me not to pray for things, pray for what you need not what you want. And to pray for Grace, If you pray for Grace and you have enough Grace nothing in this world can bother you. Because if you have enough Grace from God to trust and rely on him, you will never be afraid.

It is true too, I pray for grace everyday instead of what I want. I ask God to give me the grace to trust him and wait for him to help me and I tell him I know he will take care Of me and I know he will make everything okay,

I learned to pray that his will and mine are the same, and for the grace to accept his will if they are not. And in the end it is always his will that was correct not mine.
 
Bob I think it is better if you go back and read the beginning in the bible.

It says God created mans soul to his own image. (before we argue here do you agree the image of God is good and perfect (perfect means without sin). It says God gave Man free will, and tempered all his notions and appitites so as to subject them at all times to the dictates of reason. He gave them original righteousness and gave them dominion over all animals. This is the teaching of the CC.

Original righteousness means no sin.
God created man in his image and likeness - he shared his dignity with us and goodness.

He did NOT share his perfection with us. If Adam and Eve were perfect, they would NEVER have fallen.

But they WERE imperfect and it was only a matter of time before they fell. The question was never IF but WHEN they would fall.

Yes, they had grace, but they lost it.
 
snip…

Yes, they had grace, but they lost it.
And that Bob is whole purpose of the writings concerning the Garden.
And it is through the Gospel that we can regain that grace once again. Should we stumble we can receive that grace back again
Until the Sacrifice no one had sanctifying grace.
 
God created man in his image and likeness - he shared his dignity with us and goodness.

He did NOT share his perfection with us. If Adam and Eve were perfect, they would NEVER have fallen.

But they WERE imperfect and it was only a matter of time before they fell. The question was never IF but WHEN they would fall.

Yes, they had grace, but they lost it.
Only God is infinite perfection, of course creatures do not have that. A creature can only have perfection of a created finite nature. Because God gifted Adam and Eve with supernatural gifts it was possible for them to remain free from mortal sin, and also preternatural gifts. God, of course, knowing all things, knew that they would fall and so their descendants would be born without those gifts.
 
I want to get closer to God because the other guy (devil) is horrible.

Never said he was a vending machine. But if God made promises, I expect him to keep them. Clearly he made no promise to take care of our temporal needs.

God said it was good, he didn’t say it was perfect. One can be good without being perfect. But that’s not good enough for heaven.

I agree, he was sad that the children won’t join them in the garden, but his original plan was that they would be.

I believe I am fooling myself. My imperfections are so great that I don’t think I am reasoning properly. I can’t understand God, I can’t relate to him, so how on earth am I closer to him? I’m light years away from even thinking of having a personal relationship with God.

Agreed “if this is the way you treat your friends, no wonder you have so few.”

I think the test is too hard. I can’t handle the test.

If one wants to go to hell, just exist. If one wants to go to heaven, one has to endure horrific suffering and pain. The scales are way out of balance!!

So, how do I get the virtues of faith, hope and charity?

I asked for faith, and I’m stuck without it.
I asked for hope, don’t got it.
I asked for charity, and there’s a tiny flicker of it - maybe I’m fooling myself that I even have this.
You do not have to ask for them, they become present with the reception of sanctifying grace in the sacraments. The degree of help received varies with each individual, however through the worthy reception it is then sufficient to remain without mortal sin.
 
And that Bob is whole purpose of the writings concerning the Garden.
And it is through the Gospel that we can regain that grace once again. Should we stumble we can receive that grace back again
Until the Sacrifice no one had sanctifying grace.
The purpose of the Garden story was to explain that we are held temporally responsible for the sin of Adam and Eve. They screwed up royally and we pay the price temporally.
Only God is infinite perfection, of course creatures do not have that. A creature can only have perfection of a created finite nature. Because God gifted Adam and Eve with supernatural gifts it was possible for them to remain free from mortal sin, and also preternatural gifts. God, of course, knowing all things, knew that they would fall and so their descendants would be born without those gifts.
God is infinitely perfect, but God can create perfect creatures.

Angels are created perfectly. Momma Marry was created perfect. Both don’t want to sin.

THAT is perfection.

Adam and Eve, on the other hand, were created imperfect. Yes, they had preternatural and even some supernatural gifts (grace) but none of those were sufficient to overcome their imperfections.

Because they were imperfect, it was only a matter of time before they fell. The question was not if, but when.
 
You do not have to ask for them, they become present with the reception of sanctifying grace in the sacraments. The degree of help received varies with each individual, however through the worthy reception it is then sufficient to remain without mortal sin.
If this is true, why is it:

I have no hope of getting better. I am stuck in my current situation and cannot improve. I ask for help, and none comes.

If I had faith, I could move mountains - metaphorically. But I can’t even lift up a salt shaker. My faith is so weak and worthless.

I want to love God but I don’t do it good enough, not even close. I question whether I even have charity.

So, if I’m not getting these virtues, where to get them?
 
If this is true, why is it:

I have no hope of getting better. I am stuck in my current situation and cannot improve. I ask for help, and none comes.

If I had faith, I could move mountains - metaphorically. But I can’t even lift up a salt shaker. My faith is so weak and worthless.

I want to love God but I don’t do it good enough, not even close. I question whether I even have charity.

So, if I’m not getting these virtues, where to get them?
One can argue that either sanctifying grace was not received, or if it has been, either not cooperated with, or that some other factor is hampering the exercise of free will.

Catechism

1735 Imputability and responsibility for an action can be diminished or even nullified by ignorance, inadvertence, duress, fear, habit, inordinate attachments, and other psychological or social factors.

2352 … To form an equitable judgment about the subjects’ moral responsibility and to guide pastoral action, one must take into account the affective immaturity, force of acquired habit, conditions of anxiety or other psychological or social factors that lessen, if not even reduce to a minimum, moral culpability.
 
God created man in his image and likeness - he shared his dignity with us and goodness.

He did NOT share his perfection with us. If Adam and Eve were perfect, they would NEVER have fallen.

But they WERE imperfect and it was only a matter of time before they fell. The question was never IF but WHEN they would fall.

Yes, they had grace, but they lost it.
Yes they had the grace of God to keep them free from sin. To be perfect is to be free from sin, in a state of grace. No one reaches the perfection of God Bob, that is not what we are called to do be God. We are.

called to be free from sin, and be perfected in Christ and to be called Saints.

It is truly hard to do in this world but is possible, or God would have not asked it of us, it is what we try to do each day, and usually fail, and it is harder and harder to do in this world,

But it is from the Grace of God that we have faith, love, etc pretty much every good thing out there. God made that possible for us, and removed the sin of Adam and Eve which is original sin by his death on the cross.

If you are asking why did God hold us accountable for the sins of Adam and Eve, and then have his Son come down and take them away, no one can answer that or know the mind of God, but it is by that great Grace, that we do not have to know, and Love and trust God and know he is so far above us in wisdom, that we may never understand.

My personal guess is this, he showed us from Adam and Eve where we can be in the afterlife if we choose to disobey him the way they did, and gave us pretty much the opposite the hard world here which is temporary and the never ending good world in the end, which lasts forever. It gives us something to strive for, to have the great love of God and to live with him and see him face to face. This world could end to me the moment I finish writing this post, but the next world is forever. No end,

That is why we learn that the suffering in this world is temporary and the greatness is in the next. Material things are worthless in heaven, so why strive so hard to accumulate money, power, etc. you can;t take it with you.

We are called to trust in God to give us what we need, no want, and not to worry what everyone else seems to have, to be rich is to be able to laugh, have people to love, and love us, and help one another. As my Dad used to say add another cup of water to the soup, we will all eat.

If you got a full belly, and a roof over your head, thank God because it is more then most have, look at the other countries how they have nothing, and can find hope and happiness in God, and look at us in this country who have so much and cannot seem to get enough.

Again it is better to want what you have, then have what you want.
 
If this is true, why is it:

I have no hope of getting better. I am stuck in my current situation and cannot improve. I ask for help, and none comes.

If I had faith, I could move mountains - metaphorically. But I can’t even lift up a salt shaker. My faith is so weak and worthless.

I want to love God but I don’t do it good enough, not even close. I question whether I even have charity.

So, if I’m not getting these virtues, where to get them?
Everyone can relate to this, which makes it so much more satisfying when it does come. Pray for grace Bob, nothing else. And when you pray for grace every single thing you truly need will come.

And you will be surprised to learn sometimes what you think you need is not what you need at all. But God knows what you need, and pray for his grace to show you what that is.

And one day hope will come alive, faith, and you will be able to thrown that salt shaker into the sky and hit the stars. God is that powerful. Just continue to trust, and Love God the rest will come. And pray, pray pray. Trust me help is on its way, but you may be surprised how it will come. Just reach out and grab it even if its not what you had in mind.
 
Yes they had the grace of God to keep them free from sin. To be perfect is to be free from sin, in a state of grace. No one reaches the perfection of God Bob, that is not what we are called to do be God. We are.
To be perfect is not to have any imperfections such as pride, stupidity, naivete, fear. Adam and eve clearly were imperfect!
If you are asking why did God hold us accountable for the sins of Adam and Eve, and then have his Son come down and take them away, no one can answer that or know the mind of God, but it is by that great Grace, that we do not have to know, and Love and trust God and know he is so far above us in wisdom, that we may never understand.
I seek understanding and this I can’t understand about why we are held temporally responsible.
That is why we learn that the suffering in this world is temporary and the greatness is in the next. Material things are worthless in heaven, so why strive so hard to accumulate money, power, etc. you can;t take it with you.
My problem is not the question of suffering. My problem is the question of good. Why does God do beautiful things to other people and not me? Why am I passed by? Am I rejected?
 
To be perfect is not to have any imperfections such as pride, stupidity, naivete, fear. Adam and eve clearly were imperfect!

I seek understanding and this I can’t understand about why we are held temporally responsible.

My problem is not the question of suffering. My problem is the question of good. Why does God do beautiful things to other people and not me? Why am I passed by? Am I rejected?
As I said Bob they did not have pride fear, etc until they sinned. But it does no good to argue with one another with this, you have to read the bible and the word of God tells you.

I also explained to you that we are no longer held to original sin, Jesus freed Abraham and those who were free from actual sin, and original sin was removed by the death of Christ. IF we were still held to original sin Abraham would still be waiting.

All we have to do to have original sin removed is to be Baptised, which for Catholic’s is at birth.

No God will never reject you if you do not reject him. I cannot speak for God why he is making you wait, but I can tell you that when your turn comes you will see why. God is perfect and his wisdom is so far beyond our scope of understanding.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top