Is our free choice real

[STT]

Assuming one accepts the help, yes. With God’s help all sin can be avoided.

Why then people confess?

 

[rinnie]

Christ’s sacrifice only took care of the SPIRITUAL consequences of sin. If Christ’s sacrifice took care of the temporal consequence, as you claim, please tell me what time is the next flight to the Garden of Eden?

Also, please tell me which pharmacy has the over-the-counter cure for concupiscence? Christ took care of that right?

A free will without taking away imperfections, is meaningless.

.

Tell that to God! He’s the one holding us temporally responsible for the sins of Adam and Eve.

Where is the Garden of Eden so I can take my family there and not have to deal with this?

Well to begin with the over the counter cure is simple prayer and grace from the Holy Spirit.

I give up on trying to convince you that Jesus took away all original sin (the sin of Adam and Eve) by dying on the cross, and giving us Baptism in the name of the Trinity. You must have a Priest explain this to you, because scripture, and teaching of the Church does not convince you, I sure cannot.

You can choose to have hell on earth or heaven on earth it is your choice. If you love God and have faith in him you can be thankful for one piece of bread, and one drink of water.

You can choose to be happy and thankful for your arms and legs, for you eyes, for your mind, or you can choose to be miserable because people have more then you.

If you love and trust God you don;t need much in this world to make it a happy place. You can cry and feel sorry for yourself because you cannot afford a big vacation for your family, or you can praise God that you have a family and take a vacation on your back porch.

You either make the best of things in this life and know that no matter how bad things are they could be worse, and thank God for the good you have.

Or you can be miserable and blame God because you are unhappy, But I will promise you this, no matter what you have in this world if you cannot find happiness and be thankful for the smallest things in this world, you will never find it in riches either.

Happiness in only found in the Lord, True happiness is walking with him, talking with him, and listening to him, and obeying him not matter how hard it is.

Happiness is Grace, you can’t buy it and you can;t sell it. And its a free gift from God that you receive when you pray hard enough for it.

 

[rinnie]

Christ’s sacrifice only took care of the SPIRITUAL consequences of sin. If Christ’s sacrifice took care of the temporal consequence, as you claim, please tell me what time is the next flight to the Garden of Eden?

Also, please tell me which pharmacy has the over-the-counter cure for concupiscence? Christ took care of that right?

A free will without taking away imperfections, is meaningless.

.

Tell that to God! He’s the one holding us temporally responsible for the sins of Adam and Eve.

Where is the Garden of Eden so I can take my family there and not have to deal with this?

Where does the Church teach that Jesus death on the cross only took the Spiritual concupiscence of sin? Could you show me this teaching?

Why is free will without taking away imperfections meaningless? What is our purpose here if God made us all perfect and unable to sin? If God gave us free will but refused to let us use it to do good or sin then it would indeed be useless. How can God give us free will but then turn around and not let us use it? What is the purpose?

 

[rinnie]

Why then people confess?

Because Jesus gave the power of the Holy Spirit to work through the Priest to forgive our sins in his name. How can he know our sins he can’t read our minds. And how can a Priest forgive our hold bound a sin if it is not confessed?

 

[JimmyDFG]

Why then people confess?

2 Corinthians 5:19 “namely, God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting their trespasses against them and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation”

James 5:16 “Therefore, confess your sins to one another, that you may be healed. The fervent prayer of a righteous person is very powerful.”

 

[Vico]

…

These were lost to Adam and Eve:

Supernatural Gifts – Sanctifying Grace (Modern Catholic Dictionary)
The seven forms of supernatural initiative conferred with the reception of sanctifying grace. They are in the nature of supernatural reflexes, or reactive instincts, that spontaneously answer to the divine impulses of grace almost without reflection but always with full consent. The gifts are wisdom (sapientia), understanding (intellectus), knowledge (scientia), fortitude or courage (fortitudo), counsel (consilium), piety or love (pietas), and fear of the Lord (timor Domini).

Preternatural Gifts (Modern Catholic Dictionary)
Favors granted by God above and beyond the powers or capacities of the nature that receives them but not beyond those of all created nature. Such gifts perfect nature but do not carry it beyond the limits of created nature. They include three great privileges to which human beings have no title–* infused knowledge,* absence of concupiscence, and * bodily immortality.
Adam and Eve possessed these gifts before the Fall.

Like Adam and Eve after their fall, we too are subject to death, lack of infused knowledge, and concupiscence. Upon baptism we receive sanctifying grace and all temporal punishment for sin is also eliminated at that time.

St. Thomas Aquinas wrote in Summa Theologica, Supplement:

Question 2. The object of contrition
Article 6. Whether it is necessary to have contrition for each mortal sin?

Reply to Objection 3. Baptism acts in virtue of Christ’s merit, Who had infinite power for the blotting out of all sins; and so for all sins one Baptism suffices. But in contrition, in addition to the merit of Christ, an act of ours is requisite, which must, therefore, correspond to each sin, since it has not infinite power for contrition.

 

[fbl9]

As a former teenager, I admit to doing some foolish things without really accounting for the risk I was taking. But that is only one possible (name removed by moderator)ut scenario of many.

We make choices yes, and part of that process is weighing alternatives and evaluating risk/reward. But we don’t have a full understanding of how our choices will play out. The person who rides on the hood of the car may seriously injure themselves, impacting everyone around them. Or maybe nothing bad happens. Perhaps that person develops a new found sense of confidence because they faced danger and lived. Perhaps they go onto to be a famous stunt man or they get the courage to ask out the girl they were afraid to talk too. It seems logical to think that if you actively condition someone to take risks and then put them in a risk taking environment, then they will in fact choose to take a risk.

Would Paul have been converted if he didn’t see Jesus on the road to Damascus? Perhaps. We don’t know, but God does, and he chose to intervene at that moment.

Do you think God knew how Adam and Eve would choose before creation? Do you think he could have intervened when the serpent tempted them?

No such good things like you have listed came out of the scenario. I guess since both are sons of farmers risks like those involved didn’t outweigh the fun factor.
Is it your contention the (name removed by moderator)uts in these individual’s lives led to the idea and the resulting decision as well?
It is mind boggling to think of all the (name removed by moderator)uts needed to arrive to this particular idea let alone the the decision to do it.
I know that God knew how Adam and Eve would choose. In fact i know that He knows what you are going to write in reply to me.
Yes God could have intervened.
Do you think God could intervene in your response to me? Would you know if He did or do you feel that your response to me will be solely a result of all your particular (name removed by moderator)uts?

 

[BobCatholic]

Where does the Church teach that Jesus death on the cross only took the Spiritual concupiscence of sin? Could you show me this teaching?

Never said that the Church teaches that. She probably does, but I don’t have a citation, just my personal experience.

But I can ask you when is the next flight is to the Garden of Eden, because you believe Christ took care of the temporal consequences of sin. So I look forward to that answer.

Why is free will without taking away imperfections meaningless?

If God says no to my prayers, that is not an over the counter cure.

I give up on trying to convince you that Jesus took away all original sin (the sin of Adam and Eve) by dying on the cross, and giving us Baptism in the name of the Trinity.

Jesus took away the spiritual punishment of sin.

If Jesus took away the temporal punishment of sin, as soon as we are baptized, we are raptured into the Garden of Eden and only have to follow one rule.

So why didn’t that happen at my baptism or anyone else’s baptism? Something is missing here. We are still held temporally responsible for the sins of others. Baptism didn’t fix that. Christ didn’t fix that.

God held back.

You can choose to have hell on earth or heaven on earth it is your choice.

Hell on earth is the only choice on earth. We have to have a cross, remember?

Heaven on earth is not a choice unless God makes it so. If God says no, game over.

You can choose to be happy

I’m called to carry a cross, not be happy.

If you love and trust God you don;t need much in this world to make it a happy place.

I want to love and trust God. This requires a personal relationship with God.

Everything I have tried to get closer to God has failed, He doesn’t want me.

you will never find it in riches either.

Riches prevent suffering, not making people happy.

Happiness in only found in the Lord,

Yes, in the afterlife if I manage to make it to my death in a state of grace, and somehow am perfect at my death so I can avoid purgatory. Otherwise, happiness is not possible here or in the afterlife.

True happiness is walking with him, talking with him, and listening to him, and obeying him not matter how hard it is.

That requires him to actually talk to me as well, I can’t listen to silence. Can’t obey silence, silence is akin to “Ha ha, you figure out for it yourself you idiot!” that means relying on my own understanding - instead of leaning on God.

And its a free gift from God that you receive when you pray hard enough for it.

And how do I pray “hard enough”?

 

[Giovonni]

No such good things like you have listed came out of the scenario. I guess since both are sons of farmers risks like those involved didn’t outweigh the fun factor.
Is it your contention the (name removed by moderator)uts in these individual’s lives led to the idea and the resulting decision as well?
It is mind boggling to think of all the (name removed by moderator)uts needed to arrive to this particular idea let alone the the decision to do it.
I know that God knew how Adam and Eve would choose. In fact i know that He knows what you are going to write in reply to me.
Yes God could have intervened.
Do you think God could intervene in your response to me? Would you know if He did or do you feel that your response to me will be solely a result of all your particular (name removed by moderator)uts?

It sounds like a tragedy occurred, which is very unfortunate. I occasionally look back at things I’ve done when I was younger and think, if only I had known what I know now, I would have done things differently. But I also realize that’s not fair to myself because I made decisions based on what I knew at that time.

It is absolutely mind boggling to think of all the factors that go into a decision. Even something as simple as what I ate for breakfast is a result of my culture, my desires, and what was available to me in the moment. It would take omniscience to understand it all.

Regarding Adam and Eve, he could have intervened during the great deception but he did not. Why? I seems to me because he already had created them according to his will, he placed them in the environment with the Tree of Knowledge, and then he introduced the serpent who he knew would deceive. How could Adam have chosen otherwise?

Sure God can intervene in my response. He already has. The fact I am here is a result of him. Every moment leading up to this very one is all part of his plan, which he knows from beginning to end. The time and location we came into existence, our upbringing, genetics, education, hopes, desires and fears, all of it is intertwined.

 

[fbl9]

It sounds like a tragedy occurred, which is very unfortunate. I occasionally look back at things I’ve done when I was younger and think, if only I had known what I know now, I would have done things differently. But I also realize that’s not fair to myself because I made decisions based on what I knew at that time.

It is absolutely mind boggling to think of all the factors that go into a decision. Even something as simple as what I ate for breakfast is a result of my culture, my desires, and what was available to me in the moment. It would take omniscience to understand it all.

Regarding Adam and Eve, he could have intervened during the great deception but he did not. Why? I seems to me because he already had created them according to his will, he placed them in the environment with the Tree of Knowledge, and then he introduced the serpent who he knew would deceive. How could Adam have chosen otherwise?

Sure God can intervene in my response. He already has. The fact I am here is a result of him. Every moment leading up to this very one is all part of his plan, which he knows from beginning to end. The time and location we came into existence, our upbringing, genetics, education, hopes, desires and fears, all of it is intertwined.

Sorry i meant the things you wrote about. Those two are fine and they are not keeping their guardian angels as busy.
got to go…

 

[fbl9]

Sorry i meant the things you wrote about. Those two are fine and they are not keeping their guardian angels as busy.
.

But Adam could have chosen not to eat the fruit. Because God knew beforehand and made the plan forehand. The plan does not make the knowledge to be known rather it is the knowledge that forms the plan.

 

[Viki63]

rinnie;14538513:

Going to heaven involves horrific suffering and tremendous amount of effort, and few make it.
. . .

Hell on earth is the only choice on earth. We have to have a cross, remember?

I think you are mistaken. We have to accept the cross that is given us, if we can’t avoid it, but not everyone has a cross. And not every cross is “hell on earth.” I have to take care of my sick husband, which means I can’t go on vacations, spend all our money on myself, and so on, But it’s something I do for love, of him and of Christ. It’s not horrible.

Cardinal Newman says:
“It is the saying of holy men that, if we wish to be perfect, we have nothing more to do than to perform the ordinary duties of the day well.” Here is the article.

God wants us in heaven with him. We only have to trust him.

.

 

[rinnie]

rinnie;14538513:

Where does the Church teach that Jesus death on the cross only took the Spiritual concupiscence of sin? Could you show me this teaching?

Never said that the Church teaches that. She probably does, but I don’t have a citation, just my personal experience.

But I can ask you when is the next flight is to the Garden of Eden, because you believe Christ took care of the temporal consequences of sin. So I look forward to that answer.

A naive person will believe anything anyone tells them, even if it contradicts someone, due to the imperfection. So no wonder that snake fooled Adam and Eve. Tell me, how were they not naive?

An alcoholic will continue to drink, because of that imperfection. So if they continue to get drunk (a sin) that’s because of that imperfection.

Imperfections make it like this: People will fall. The question is not IF but WHEN.

Imperfections take free will and make it into a cruel joke at best, and non-existent at worst.

Oh, you mean like Momma Mary? Yeah, go ahead and question her purpose.

And angels. Go on and question their purpose as well.

And saints. Go on, and question their purpose as well.

I question whether God actually gave us free will.

If God DID, going to heaven would be as easy as going to hell.

But instead, going to hell is ridiculously easy, just exist. Going to heaven involves horrific suffering and tremendous amount of effort, and few make it.

How does that indicate we have free will? Sounds like loaded dice to me.

If God says no to my prayers, that is not an over the counter cure.

Jesus took away the spiritual punishment of sin.

If Jesus took away the temporal punishment of sin, as soon as we are baptized, we are raptured into the Garden of Eden and only have to follow one rule.

So why didn’t that happen at my baptism or anyone else’s baptism? Something is missing here. We are still held temporally responsible for the sins of others. Baptism didn’t fix that. Christ didn’t fix that.

God held back.

Hell on earth is the only choice on earth. We have to have a cross, remember?

Heaven on earth is not a choice unless God makes it so. If God says no, game over.

I’m called to carry a cross, not be happy.

I want to love and trust God. This requires a personal relationship with God.

Everything I have tried to get closer to God has failed, He doesn’t want me.

Riches prevent suffering, not making people happy.

Yes, in the afterlife if I manage to make it to my death in a state of grace, and somehow am perfect at my death so I can avoid purgatory. Otherwise, happiness is not possible here or in the afterlife.

That requires him to actually talk to me as well, I can’t listen to silence. Can’t obey silence, silence is akin to “Ha ha, you figure out for it yourself you idiot!” that means relying on my own understanding - instead of leaning on God.

And how do I pray “hard enough”?

Yes Mother Mary was saved from Original Sin but where did that mean she had no free will to say yes to God or no? And where did that mean she had no free will to sin? Just because she chose not to, does not mean she could not. And if being sinless means you cannot sin what happened to Eve the

If you cannot LISTEN to silence, you will not hear. Think about that.

You claim you are held to the sin of others and there is not help in this world. Then Jesus must have not told us the truth then, when he said to be Baptised and you are free from sin, and if you sin you can be forgiven if you confess and forego the sin. And he promised that there is no cross you can have that his grace will overcome. Correct? Then you are saying the Devil beats God right? Because the word of God is no matter what the devil throws at us, God can overcome with his grace.

How you pray hard enough is this, accept your cross, thank God for his great glory, and don’t ask for the cross to be removed, ask God to help you carry that cross with his Grace and take away your bitterness at having to carry it in the first place. And let you see that cross as an honor instead of a curse, as I have showed you in another thread earlier.

 

[BobCatholic]

Yes Mother Mary was saved from Original Sin but where did that mean she had no free will to say yes to God or no?

Because she was perfect, she had free will.

Because I am imperfect, my free will is either an illusion or a cruel joke.

If you cannot LISTEN to silence, you will not hear. Think about that.

I have ADHD. Silence will bore me to tears or drive me into distractions. This is one of many imperfections I have.

You claim you are held to the sin of others and there is not help in this world. Then Jesus must have not told us the truth then, when he said to be Baptised and you are free from sin,

Yes, free from the spiritual punishments of sin, not temporal.

If we are freed from the temporal punishment of Adam and Eve’s sin and the sins of our ancestors, please tell me where the location of the Garden of Eden is and what airlines have flights going there.

I want to go there, have only one rule and I promise not to listen to snakes or touch that forbidden fruit.

I asked this many times and nobody answered the question.

. And he promised that there is no cross you can have that his grace will overcome.

Where does Christ say this?

Then you are saying the Devil beats God right?

Explain why we are here, instead of in the Garden of Eden?

How you pray hard enough is this, accept your cross, thank God for his great glory, and don’t ask for the cross to be removed, ask God to help you carry that cross with his Grace and take away your bitterness at having to carry it in the first place. And let you see that cross as an honor instead of a curse, as I have showed you in another thread earlier.

The problem is not that I have a cross to carry. The problem I have is OTHER PEOPLE not having to carry a cross. I understand and accept the philosophical problem of evil. I don’t understand the problem of good - where God exempts some people from the cross.

 

[davidv]

Because she was perfect, she had free will.

Because I am imperfect, my free will is either an illusion or a cruel joke.

I have ADHD. Silence will bore me to tears or drive me into distractions. This is one of many imperfections I have.

Yes, free from the spiritual punishments of sin, not temporal.

If we are freed from the temporal punishment of Adam and Eve’s sin and the sins of our ancestors, please tell me where the location of the Garden of Eden is and what airlines have flights going there.

I want to go there, have only one rule and I promise not to listen to snakes or touch that forbidden fruit.

I asked this many times and nobody answered the question.

Where does Christ say this?

Explain why we are here, instead of in the Garden of Eden?

The problem is not that I have a cross to carry. The problem I have is OTHER PEOPLE not having to carry a cross. I understand and accept the philosophical problem of evil. I don’t understand the problem of good - where God exempts some people from the cross.

Your criteria for whether others have crosses is faulty. Everyone has a cross. Some do not have financial ones.

 

[BobCatholic]

Your criteria for whether others have crosses is faulty. Everyone has a cross. Some do not have financial ones.

How is it faulty? Explain.

If one is exempt from a cross, they’re exempt from a cross.

In addition, you haven’t touched upon what is the main point I’m making: Imperfections take away free will, making it a cruel joke.

 

[davidv]

How is it faulty? Explain.

If one is exempt from a cross, they’re exempt from a cross.

In addition, you haven’t touched upon what is the main point I’m making: Imperfections take away free will, making it a cruel joke.

It is faulty because you cannot possibly know what crosses people have. Particularly those that are not visible to you.

No one is exempt from the cross.

Your point is not valid. Free will exists whether we are perfect or not. This part of our God given nature. It one of the key distinctions that set us apart from these rest of the animal kingdom

 

[Aloysium]

. . . Free will exists whether we are perfect or not. . .

To add to this:
Perfect is a weird word. I can understand the concept of God being perfect and our journeying towards perfection through Jesus Christ and the grace of the Holy Spirit.
On the other hand, the personal striving for perfection sounds egotistical and in contradistinction with the pursuit of excellence, which has to do with making the most of what God has bestowed upon us.
We do not need to be perfect, whatever that means, for God to love us. He seeks to bring the worst sinner back to the fold.
At a basic level all we are asked is to love one another, and in doing so we will come to know and love God.

 

[BobCatholic]

It is faulty because you cannot possibly know what crosses people have. Particularly those that are not visible to you.

I know when someone is exempt from a cross I have. That is abundantly clear.

No one is exempt from the cross.

Yes they are. They’re exempt from different crosses.

Free will exists whether we are perfect or not.

If someone has the imperfection of naivete, they will believe anything anyone tells them, even if what they are told is a lie. As a result, they will sin. All it takes is an evil person to tell them to do evil saying it is a good thing.

If someone has the imperfection of alcoholism, they will get drunk, which is a sin.

Imperfections make sin likely - it is not an if, but when it will happen.

Imperfections make the concept of free will a cruel joke at best, or nonexistent at worst.

 

[davidv]

I know when someone is exempt from a cross I have. That is abundantly clear.

How can know this? All you can see is the exterior.

Yes they are. They’re exempt from different crosses.

If someone has the imperfection of naivete, they will believe anything anyone tells them, even if what they are told is a lie. As a result, they will sin. All it takes is an evil person to tell them to do evil saying it is a good thing.

If someone has the imperfection of alcoholism, they will get drunk, which is a sin.

Imperfections make sin likely - it is not an if, but when it will happen.

Imperfections make the concept of free will a cruel joke at best, or nonexistent at worst.