Is our free choice real

[BobCatholic]

Oh So you are saying that Adam and Eve did not chose to disobey God, or are you saying they did not know they were disobeying God?

The question is not whether they disobeyed God or not. The question was was their choice free will or just a consequence of imperfection.

If they had insufficient free will, the question then becomes why were they culpable for disobeying God if the act was not done in free will.

They were not naive, they were told you do not have to listen to God you can become a God yourself.

The snake told them rubbish and they believed it without question. THAT is naive.

I also noticed you did not bother to address any of the other imperfections I listed.

God created them without sin, if he did not they would not be in the garden of eden in the first place,

So why was the snake there if sin is not allowed in the garden of Eden?
Who let him in to the picture?

You will notice God did not yell at Adam nor Eve for allowing the snake in the garden. So someone else let him in.

Who was that? If it was not Adam nor Eve, it was God, who did this. Why was he not responsible in any way shape or form? Answer: God is not responsible for anything he does, only we weak, puny mortals are.

But Jesus came and gave us perfect balance with God again with the Holy Spirit.

Perfect spiritually.
Not perfect temporally. You will notice we are not in the Garden of Eden nor allowed back.

We are still held temporally responsible for the sins of our ancestors.

Are you saying that Pope John Paul ll who is now a Saint never sinned? Huh, I am sorry you are so wrong.

Will he sin in heaven? No. He is perfect there. That’s when he became a saint, after he died. So saints are perfect because they’re in heaven.

He wasn’t perfect here, that’s why he went to confession every week.

So clearly you chose to purposely misinterpret what I wrote and put words in my mouth instead of actually addressing what I wrote.

We can all become Saints the same way he did, by using our free will to do so and with the help of the Holy Spirit.

And how do I have free will if I am so imperfect that the concept of free will is either a cruel joke at best or non-existent at worst?

And where did God ever say it would be easy to become a Saint here on earth, because I missed that one,

Precisely my point.

It is ridiculously easy to go to hell. It is our default setting. All we have to do is exist and we are hellbound.

To go to hell, as you said, is not easy, it is ridiculously difficult, and requires six tons of horrific suffering and pain.

The scales are out of balance.

If we REALLY had free will, both choices would be equally easy (or equally hard).

Yes he said the road is narrow, so what Pope John Paul ll had not free will? He did not choose to obey God and reject sin as much as possible, and when he did sin confess his sins? Because something is so wrong here with what you are saying.

The road is narrow because the scales are out of balance and human imperfections kill free will.

Pope John Paul II had free will because God was with him. God is not with me, God does not want me. Every attempt I made to get closer to God has failed. God plays hard to get.

. So unfortunately I have to disagree with everything you said, it is not Catholic teaching.

No, you misinterpreted what I said.

 

[BobCatholic]

Again I disagree, A Saint does not have the mind of God.

A saint has a will perfectly in conformance with God’s will.

And if the saint does not have the mind of God, that’s interesting, so does heaven have discussions, debates and disagreements?

Scripture says we must be one in mind…and that is the mind of God.

So forget about being perfect because its not going to happen not in this world.

So basically speaking, it is impossible, then, for me to ever go to heaven. No imperfect people go to heaven.

The best I could possibly hope for is purgatory, and that is a long shot for me.

If you want it, use your free will and do it. Only think of pleasing God with every single thought in your head, do that and money, jobs etc will not even enter your mind. And they will be taken care of.

But first, I want free will.

This requires that I not have imperfections that take away my free will. I want all imperfections gone. I ask for this from God, he said no. More signs that God does not want me.

 

[Vico]

Precisely what I’ve been saying all along, so why are we still held temporally responsible for the sins of Adam and Eve - in addition to the sins that are based on imperfections?

If one has an imperfection that makes the will not free, there is no culpability, and therefore Adam and Eve should never have been kicked out since they were created imperfect.

Adam and Even did have free will and were culpable.
We are born without the supernatural and preternatural gifts that Adam and Eve had. God knew that they would fall and that we would not receive them. We have simple human nature with concupiscence however God compensates to makes our salvation possible.

 

[BobCatholic]

Adam and Even did have free will and were culpable.

How do you know? They had one or more deadly imperfections which were instrumental in them falling. The software crashed and the Great Programmer did not fix the bugs.

Why was ONLY Adam & Eve held responsible and not God for putting in the bugs in the software in the first place?

We are born without the supernatural and preternatural gifts that Adam and Eve had. God knew that they would fall and that we would not receive them. We have simple human nature with concupiscence however God compensates to makes our salvation possible.

So, not only was Adam and Eve imperfect, God creates us EVEN MORE imperfect.
Adam and Eve were only held to one rule, and they screwed up royally. But we, though we are MORE imperfect, are held to 613 rules (later reduced to 10) - even though we are weaker, more imperfect, and more likely to fall, we are given a harder burden.

To me, this is setting people up for failing.

But God had no responsibility by creating them imperfect. The infinite, all-powerful God has all the power but zero responsibility. The weak, mere mortals, have 100% of the responsibility, but no power.

How is this just?

 

[fbl9]

How do you know? They had one or more deadly imperfections which were instrumental in them falling. The software crashed and the Great Programmer did not fix the bugs.

Why was ONLY Adam & Eve held responsible and not God for putting in the bugs in the software in the first place?

So, not only was Adam and Eve imperfect, God creates us EVEN MORE imperfect.
Adam and Eve were only held to one rule, and they screwed up royally. But we, though we are MORE imperfect, are held to 613 rules (later reduced to 10) - even though we are weaker, more imperfect, and more likely to fall, we are given a harder burden.

To me, this is setting people up for failing.

But God had no responsibility by creating them imperfect. The infinite, all-powerful God has all the power but zero responsibility. The weak, mere mortals, have 100% of the responsibility, but no power.

How is this just?

How many faithful Catholics have agreed with you Bob? Zero in the last four years you have been on this site. Wouldn’t that be a clue that you are in error in this area.
Accept the words of Vico and Rinnie. but you can not because that would mean Bob can not play the victim any more. What makes you so special that God devotes His time to making your life miserable.

 

[BobCatholic]

How many faithful Catholics have agreed with you Bob? Zero in the last four years you have been on this site. Wouldn’t that be a clue that you are in error in this area.

It means I have asked a question nobody has the answer to.

Nobody knows why we are held temporally responsible for our ancestor’s sins.
Nobody knows why Adam and Eve were created imperfect.
Nobody knows that imperfections cause people to fall - it is a matter of time - that’s the nature of imperfections - because one is imperfect, that imperfection causes them not to see the imperfection.

I can’t ask God because God does not love me enough to answer those hard questions. Besides, I’m not special enough to warrant an answer anyway, either from God or the people here on CAF, clearly I am that horrible.

Accept the words of Vico and Rinnie. but you can not because that would mean Bob can not play the victim any more. What makes you so special that God devotes His time to making your life miserable.

I didn’t say God is making our life miserable, nor do I think I am special in any way shape or form. I am saying God has abandoned me. He doesn’t devote any time to me. I am a pitiful speck of dust and no wonder God does not want me.

 

[the_phoenix]

To paraphrase JFK,

“Ask not what God can do for you,
ask what you can do for God.”

I say this as someone without a steady job or benefits.
I’m grateful for the contract position I have now,
realizing upfront that my current assignment
has no guarantees.

…

 

[Vico]

How do you know? They had one or more deadly imperfections which were instrumental in them falling. The software crashed and the Great Programmer did not fix the bugs.

Why was ONLY Adam & Eve held responsible and not God for putting in the bugs in the software in the first place?

So, not only was Adam and Eve imperfect, God creates us EVEN MORE imperfect.
Adam and Eve were only held to one rule, and they screwed up royally. But we, though we are MORE imperfect, are held to 613 rules (later reduced to 10) - even though we are weaker, more imperfect, and more likely to fall, we are given a harder burden.

To me, this is setting people up for failing.

But God had no responsibility by creating them imperfect. The infinite, all-powerful God has all the power but zero responsibility. The weak, mere mortals, have 100% of the responsibility, but no power.

How is this just?

We know that Adam and Eve did have free will (deliberate consent) and were culpable because the Church has defined these as a dogmas of faith.

1. They had sanctifying grace but lost it – they were culpable for a grievous sin. Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma lists these dogmas of faith:
   Our first parents, before the Fall, were endowed with sanctifying grace. (De fide.)
   They were also endowed with the donum immortalitatis, i.e., bodily immortality. (De fide.)
   Our first parents in paradise sinned grievously through transgression of the Divine probationary commandment. (De fide.)
   Through the sin our first parents lost sanctifying grace and provoked the anger and the indignation of God. (De fide.)
   Our first parents became subject to death and to the dominion of the Devil. (De fide.)
2. Catechism:
   1734 Freedom makes man responsible for his acts to the extent that they are voluntary. Progress in virtue, knowledge of the good, and ascesis enhance the mastery of the will over its acts.
   1857 For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: "Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent."131

 

[fbl9]

It means I have asked a question nobody has the answer to.

Nobody knows why we are held temporally responsible for our ancestor’s sins.
Nobody knows why Adam and Eve were created imperfect.
Nobody knows that imperfections cause people to fall - it is a matter of time - that’s the nature of imperfections - because one is imperfect, that imperfection causes them not to see the imperfection.

I can’t ask God because God does not love me enough to answer those hard questions. Besides, I’m not special enough to warrant an answer anyway, either from God or the people here on CAF, clearly I am that horrible.

I didn’t say God is making our life miserable, nor do I think I am special in any way shape or form. I am saying God has abandoned me. He doesn’t devote any time to me. I am a pitiful speck of dust and no wonder God does not want me.

Questions have been answered many times over but you reject the replies and respond with when is the next flight…,
I guess then you must be perfect cause you see your imperfections.
Yes Bob you are so horrible that Rinnie has poured out so much love for you,the effort and time that Vico has spent on replying to you. It is like i said Bob for you to accept what Rinnie and Vico have said to you. You would have to admit you have been and are wrong in your view point.
It is a hard thing to admit that one is wrong when they think little of themselves. Why?because this admission means they have been wrong all along about who they really are…
Seriously Bob who was it that said; the scales are unbalanced we have to suffer to get to heaven and do nothing to go to hell?
Really? The existence of all is only held in being by God.

 

[rinnie]

Bob here is something that I think, now this is not Catholic Teaching, but I do not believe either that it goes against CT. If it does my bros and sis here will correct me.

I believe Adam and Eve had it all, and like all humans in this world thought maybe there is more. The grass is greener effect. So they decided to reject God and become gods themselves.

well God loves us so much that he gives us free will to do what we want. See God won’t force his love on anyone, because you cannot force Love. So he said go on, do it your way.

And they did and made a disaster out of it, One sin led to another and another, and as you see in this adam and eve world sin keeps growing.

Now why did God let this happen? This is what I think, God knows we would all probally do what they did. Think life without him could be great, do what we want, when etc. But see now we see that Adam and Eve had it all and we DO need God, and why would we want to leave the garden of eden? We would be fools.

But see by leaving us here, and dying for our sins, he gave it to us both ways, just upside down. Instead of getting the best first and loosing it forever, he gave us the worst first, so we would never wonder what it would be like to not have God face to face, or live outside of paradise, He showed us firsthand so when our times comes and we enter paradise, we will appreciate it, and never want to ever leave.

WE have it better then Adam and Eve because we have the Church and Holy Spirit to lead us, We are not abandoned. There is help, unless we do not want it, and then those who would never want to live in paradise, get what they choose also.

So instead of God giving us everything and then taking it away, he is letting us learn from the mistakes of Adam and Eve, and hopefully when the time comes, appreciate what he truly wanted for us. So it is not a curse, it is a gift to see what the other side has to offer, so there will be no doubt. But that is why he made the suffering in this world short, and the peace and love and happiness in the next world never ending.

 

[ANV]

I wonder if Paul’s free choice was real, and if the saints and prophets free choices were real, God appeared to them one way or another, so they probably had to choose him, anyone would do if they were in their place, didn’t that effect their free will, what about those who are not faithful to a god, wouldn’t they probably accept God if he appeared to them like he did with saints and prophets, where’s the free will then or where’s even the fair will in choosing some over others?

 

[Vico]

I wonder if Paul’s free choice was real, and if the saints and prophets free choices were real, God appeared to them one way or another, so they probably had to choose him, anyone would do if they were in their place, didn’t that effect their free will, what about those who are not faithful to a god, wouldn’t they probably accept God if he appeared to them like he did with saints and prophets, where’s the free will then or where’s even the fair will in choosing some over others?

Luke 16:19-31

19 There was a certain rich man, who was clothed in purple and fine linen; and feasted sumptuously every day.
20 And there was a certain beggar, named Lazarus, who lay at his gate, full of sores,
21 Desiring to be filled with the crumbs that fell from the rich man’s table, and no one did give him; moreover the dogs came, and licked his sores.
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom. And the rich man also died: and he was buried in hell.
23 And lifting up his eyes when he was in torments, he saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom:
24 And he cried, and said: Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, to cool my tongue: for I am tormented in this flame.
25 And Abraham said to him: Son, remember that thou didst receive good things in thy lifetime, and likewise Lazareth evil things, but now he is comforted; and thou art tormented.
26 And besides all this, between us and you, there is fixed a great chaos: so that they who would pass from hence to you, cannot, nor from thence come hither.
27 And he said: Then, father, I beseech thee, that thou wouldst send him to my father’s house, for I have five brethren,
28 That he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torments.
29 And Abraham said to him: They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 But he said: No, father Abraham: but if one went to them from the dead, they will do penance.
31 And he said to him: If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they believe, if one rise again from the dead.

 

[ANV]

Luke 16:19-31

19 There was a certain rich man, who was clothed in purple and fine linen; and feasted sumptuously every day.
20 And there was a certain beggar, named Lazarus, who lay at his gate, full of sores,
21 Desiring to be filled with the crumbs that fell from the rich man’s table, and no one did give him; moreover the dogs came, and licked his sores.
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom. And the rich man also died: and he was buried in hell.
23 And lifting up his eyes when he was in torments, he saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom:
24 And he cried, and said: Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, to cool my tongue: for I am tormented in this flame.
25 And Abraham said to him: Son, remember that thou didst receive good things in thy lifetime, and likewise Lazareth evil things, but now he is comforted; and thou art tormented.
26 And besides all this, between us and you, there is fixed a great chaos: so that they who would pass from hence to you, cannot, nor from thence come hither.
27 And he said: Then, father, I beseech thee, that thou wouldst send him to my father’s house, for I have five brethren,
28 That he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torments.
29 And Abraham said to him: They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 But he said: No, father Abraham: but if one went to them from the dead, they will do penance.
31 And he said to him: If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they believe, if one rise again from the dead.

This is a famous one but I don’t get how is this related to my question, because you quoted my reply.

 

[rinnie]

It means I have asked a question nobody has the answer to.

Nobody knows why we are held temporally responsible for our ancestor’s sins.
Nobody knows why Adam and Eve were created imperfect.
Nobody knows that imperfections cause people to fall - it is a matter of time - that’s the nature of imperfections - because one is imperfect, that imperfection causes them not to see the imperfection.

I can’t ask God because God does not love me enough to answer those hard questions. Besides, I’m not special enough to warrant an answer anyway, either from God or the people here on CAF, clearly I am that horrible.

I didn’t say God is making our life miserable, nor do I think I am special in any way shape or form. I am saying God has abandoned me. He doesn’t devote any time to me. I am a pitiful speck of dust and no wonder God does not want me.

Nobody knows why we are held temporary responsible for our ancestors sins because we are not.
Nobody knows why Adam and Eve were created imperfect because they were not. The were created free from sin, if they were full of sin they would not be in the garden in the first place.

It is not imperfections that cause people to sin, it is their desire to want someone that they know they should not have. You cannot be accountable for sin, unless you are aware of your sin. God does not work that way, he knows are mind and knows exactly why we sin. God never judges unjustly.

Again you do not have the mind of the Divine, so you cannot speak for God. Because God is not giving you what your want you accuse him of abandoning you. God never does that, if we seek out God with a sincere heart he will be there. That is his promise to us.

 

[rinnie]

A saint has a will perfectly in conformance with God’s will.

And if the saint does not have the mind of God, that’s interesting, so does heaven have discussions, debates and disagreements?

Scripture says we must be one in mind…and that is the mind of God.

So basically speaking, it is impossible, then, for me to ever go to heaven. No imperfect people go to heaven.

The best I could possibly hope for is purgatory, and that is a long shot for me.

But first, I want free will.

This requires that I not have imperfections that take away my free will. I want all imperfections gone. I ask for this from God, he said no. More signs that God does not want me.

And you are taking scripture out of context. To be of one mind is to obey and do as God teaches us. It does not mean we can know what God is thinking. God is Divine, we are Not. A human does not understand the mind of the Divine.

No it is not impossible to become a Saint here on this earth, but it is very difficult as Christ taught you the road is very narrow. But it is possible, or God would not call us to all become Saints. And you are correct few People die Saints, they must go through Purgatory because the only desire they can have is to please God.

You have free will, if you did not have free will you would not be capable to sin. Unless now you are going to say God forces us to sin because that is pure nonsense.

You cannot just ask God to take away all of your imperfections, you have to do that yourself, you have to have a pure desire to obey all of the commandments and put all of your personal wants, lusts, and desires out of your mind, and only obey Gods commands.

You want God to take away all of your desires, and wants in this life and to live only for him. Then why are you asking him for what you want? A Saint only wants to please God period. you do not ask God to do what you want, you ask God to give you his grace to please him, and trust him, and do with you as he chooses.

You do not question his judgement for the crosses your bare. You know that if you choose to become a Saint and live for him it is the hardest life in this world. You deny yourself everything that you have been asking for the last few weeks in this thread. You ask him for nothing but for the grace to carry the crosses he has chosen for him, and you never complain and you carry them with gladness. And no matter how bad things look you never question nor ask him why.

 

[Vico]

This is a famous one but I don’t get how is this related to my question, because you quoted my reply.

You posted “what about those who are not faithful to a god, wouldn’t they probably accept God if he appeared to them like he did with saints and prophets, where’s the free will then or where’s even the fair will in choosing some over others?”

So the example is one of an unfaithful person that wants to warn his family to get religion to avoid his experience. The answer is no, it would not help. A miracle of God is what was experienced by saints and prophets. They did not experience that because they were unfaithful to the truth, but rather because they were just. It would not help the unfaithful.

 

[BobCatholic]

To paraphrase JFK,

“Ask not what God can do for you,
ask what you can do for God.”

I say this as someone without a steady job or benefits.
I’m grateful for the contract position I have now,
realizing upfront that my current assignment
has no guarantees.

…

Well, you have a virtue I do not possess. I can’t suffer with a smile on my face. I just can’t do it.

We know that Adam and Eve did have free will (deliberate consent) and were culpable because the Church has defined these as a dogmas of faith.

If they were imperfect, I question if they had free will.
You will notice that it is not de fide that:

• Adam and Eve were created perfect
• Adam and Eve had no imperfections.

If it is, please show me the citations from scripture, tradition or magisterium.

I know for a fact, that Catholic teaching is that Adam and Eve were prideful as your quote shows for a fact. Pridefulness is an imperfection, and thus proves my point.

I build upon that and say they had maybe more imperfections than just that. Fear. Ignorance. Naivete. Stupidity. This does not contradict anything de fide or dogma. I’m merely making a theological speculation.

 

[BobCatholic]

Questions have been answered many times over but you reject the replies and respond with when is the next flight…,

Because the fact that we are not in the Garden of Eden, with only one rule to follow to make God happy (along with having a personal direct relationship with God) is proof positive that we are held temporally responsible for the sins of our ancestors.

I guess then you must be perfect cause you see your imperfections.

A contradiction, which I do not believe. I see my imperfections, and know I am not perfect, and thus am not good enough for God and thus that’s why I am rejected by God.

It is a hard thing to admit that one is wrong when they think little of themselves.

I cannot think highly about myself, that’s wrong. Anything evil about me is me. Anything good about me is God working through me. How on earth could I ever think highly of myself?

Seriously Bob who was it that said; the scales are unbalanced we have to suffer to get to heaven and do nothing to go to hell?

Read the lives of the saints. They suffered horrific stuff, and they got to heaven.
Christ did the same. He said WE MUST DO AS HE DOES.

So, to go to heaven, we must suffer horrific suffering, and few make it - Christ said so himself!

Hell is the default setting for humanity. We are royally screwed without God’s grace.

I believe Adam and Eve had it all, and like all humans in this world thought maybe there is more. The grass is greener effect. So they decided to reject God and become gods themselves.

I don’t think so, they were definitely imperfect. Even you can admit they had the imperfection of pride.

well God loves us so much that he gives us free will to do what we want.

But then he punishes us for doing so, so where’s the free will then?

See God won’t force his love on anyone, because you cannot force Love. So he said go on, do it your way.

I want him to. I ask him to.

So instead of God giving us everything and then taking it away, he is letting us learn from the mistakes of Adam and Eve,

Actually God did give us residence in the Garden of Eden, and many gifts, then took them away, because we were never entitled to them in the first place (de fide).

So God DID give us everything and took it away.

 

[BobCatholic]

Nobody knows why we are held temporary responsible for our ancestors sins because we are not.

Please explain how we are NOT temporally held responsible for the sins of our ancestors?

We are NOT in the Garden of Eden.
We are NOT told to only follow one rule to please God.
We are NOT in the presence of God and having a two-way conversation with God. (some do, and I wish I could meet those people)

We are subject to the same punishment (and more) given to Adam and Eve.

We are sitting in the same jail cell as they did.

Nobody knows why Adam and Eve were created imperfect because they were not.

De Fide: They were prideful. Pridefulness is an imperfection. So you have just contradicted Catholic teaching.

I just go further and say they have other imperfections: naivete, ignorance, fear, stupidity.

The were created free from sin, if they were full of sin they would not be in the garden in the first place.

Created free from sin is not the same as perfection. Perfection entails never wanting to sin, even though they had the ability to do so. The saints are perfect. Angels are perfect. God is perfect (infinitely more perfect than them).

Tell me, if Adam and Eve were perfect, why didn’t God immediately take them into heaven?

And if sin/evil is not allowed in the Garden, how in blazes did that snake get into the Garden? Who was responsible for that happening?

It is not imperfections that cause people to sin, it is their desire to want someone that they know they should not have.

That’s the imperfection of greed, or envy - which one you want to choose - either which way, both of those imperfections cause people to sin. So I proved that wrong right there.

Again you do not have the mind of the Divine, so you cannot speak for God.

I never claimed to speak for God. That would require me to have a personal relationship with God (I don’t have one, only have a corporate one) - and have the ability to have a two way conversation with God (prayer is a monologue to me, God does not speak to me, but when I see my requests not happening, that means it was a no)

God never does that, if we seek out God with a sincere heart he will be there. That is his promise to us.

Please show me where that promise is.

I know God never made a promise to give us what we need temporally.

 

[Vico]

Well, you have a virtue I do not possess. I can’t suffer with a smile on my face. I just can’t do it.

If they were imperfect, I question if they had free will.
You will notice that it is not de fide that:

• Adam and Eve were created perfect
• Adam and Eve had no imperfections.

If it is, please show me the citations from scripture, tradition or magisterium.

I know for a fact, that Catholic teaching is that Adam and Eve were prideful as your quote shows for a fact. Pridefulness is an imperfection, and thus proves my point.

I build upon that and say they had maybe more imperfections than just that. Fear. Ignorance. Naivete. Stupidity. This does not contradict anything de fide or dogma. I’m merely making a theological speculation.

Please focus. In Post 502 you responded to my statement that “Adam and Even did have free will and were culpable.”, with “How do you know?”

So my post answers that one question.