Is our free choice real

[rinnie]

I would contend that he did not have free will to begin with. God knew how Saul would react if he revealed himself, and he knew how he would react if he hadn’t given him the revelation.

Now before you say foreknowledge doesn’t equal causation, in the case of God, he also created Saul (and all of us for that matter).

If you create something (Paul’s mind) with a full understanding of how it will act in a given situation, and then you actively place it in that circumstance (revelation on the road to Damascus), then it follows that you control the outcome (Paul stops persecuting). Sure he made a choice, but under what basis do you assert that it was free?

But see you miss the point, rather or not God knew how Saul would react has nothing to do with the free will of Saul.

Just because God knows what we will do and will not do in no way changes the outcome. Its like saying you read a book and you know the outcome. so someone else reads the book, because you know the outcome, you made that outcome happen, the writer had no power over the outcome because you read it before hand and knew what happened. It makes no sense now does it.

That is what you are trying to say. The writer of the book had free will to choose the outcome, not the person reads the book.

God knows everything we will do before we will do it because he is God. God did not write our book either, God left us to be the author of our own life. He just read our book, because God is so far ahead of time, Time as we know it does not exist for God.

God knew before I wrote this what I was going to write, he gave me free will to write this. I have free will to write what I want, good or bad. If God had power over me, then I would be perfect, Every answer I have ever written here would be the right answer. My weakness in life, etc, on this site shows I a not given orders from God, I wish he would take over my mind and soul, but he will not do that. But he will lead me if I choose to follow him.

 

[rinnie]

I would contend that he did not have free will to begin with. God knew how Saul would react if he revealed himself, and he knew how he would react if he hadn’t given him the revelation.

Now before you say foreknowledge doesn’t equal causation, in the case of God, he also created Saul (and all of us for that matter).

If you create something (Paul’s mind) with a full understanding of how it will act in a given situation, and then you actively place it in that circumstance (revelation on the road to Damascus), then it follows that you control the outcome (Paul stops persecuting). Sure he made a choice, but under what basis do you assert that it was free?

Okay then you are saying God was who was to to blame for Saul persecuting the CC right?

Now if you are right, and we are wrong, why would God have Saul persecute the CC, because God has control of our minds, and then ASK Saul why are you persecuting me?

Why did God use the free will of Saul and let him persecute him in the first place? Because according to you when God created Pauls mind he had full understanding of how to act in a given situation.

Again your words, my question why did God not do what you said, and why did Saul not use that knowledge and not persecute the CC in the first place? Again your words read what you said.

 

[Giovonni]

Okay then you are saying God was who was to to blame for Saul persecuting the CC right?

Now if you are right, and we are wrong, why would God have Saul persecute the CC, because God has control of our minds, and then ASK Saul why are you persecuting me?

Why did God use the free will of Saul and let him persecute him in the first place? Because according to you when God created Pauls mind he had full understanding of how to act in a given situation.

Again your words, my question why did God not do what you said, and why did Saul not use that knowledge and not persecute the CC in the first place? Again your words read what you said.

To clarify, I didn’t state that Paul would know how to react in any situation. I said that *God *would know how Paul will react in either situation A or situation B because God created Paul’s mind. With that knowledge, God actualized situation A where Paul was converted. Perhaps I’m not the one who needs to re-read what I wrote.

Do you think God didn’t know the reason why Saul was persecuting the church? I’m pretty certain he did know. So why even ask? It was a rhetorical question for the purpose of changing his mind and the men he was traveling with.

And to address your main question about why would God have Saul persecute the CC and then confront him about it? Well I don’t know the mind of God, but I can speculate. During this Paul was temporarily blinded. In a sense we are all blind to Christ until he makes himself known to us. As Paul says, “no one understands, no one seeks God”.

 

[Giovonni]

But see you miss the point, rather or not God knew how Saul would react has nothing to do with the free will of Saul.

Just because God knows what we will do and will not do in no way changes the outcome. Its like saying you read a book and you know the outcome. so someone else reads the book, because you know the outcome, you made that outcome happen, the writer had no power over the outcome because you read it before hand and knew what happened. It makes no sense now does it.

That is what you are trying to say. The writer of the book had free will to choose the outcome, not the person reads the book.

God knows everything we will do before we will do it because he is God. God did not write our book either, God left us to be the author of our own life. He just read our book, because God is so far ahead of time, Time as we know it does not exist for God.

God knew before I wrote this what I was going to write, he gave me free will to write this. I have free will to write what I want, good or bad. If God had power over me, then I would be perfect, Every answer I have ever written here would be the right answer. My weakness in life, etc, on this site shows I a not given orders from God, I wish he would take over my mind and soul, but he will not do that. But he will lead me if I choose to follow him.

I didn’t miss the point, and your analogy is flawed. While you are correct to say that a reader has no power over the outcome as written by the author, this is not what is happening in the case of God. God created everything that goes into who we are. We have no control over our genetics or the environment we are raised in. God does because he created both. In a sense, God read the book, then created the author and gave him all of the experiences he needed to result in the ending.

This existence is God’s book. He knew from before creation how he wanted it to unfold and how it would end. Even your wrong answers are part of that book.

You claim you are the author of your own life. Are you free to write yourself as free from pain? No, you can’t. I personally hate the taste of mushrooms. Can I write that I all of the sudden love the taste? Can I author myself to be taller? What about who my parents are, or the values I was raised with? Could I have authored myself to have learned quicker as a child or have a different upbringing? There are an immeasurable amount of events that went into who I am, of which I had no authorship. Even something as simple as choosing what to eat for breakfast is the result of factors I’m not consciously aware of.

 

[rinnie]

I didn’t miss the point, and your analogy is flawed. While you are correct to say that a reader has no power over the outcome as written by the author, this is not what is happening in the case of God. God created everything that goes into who we are. We have no control over our genetics or the environment we are raised in. God does because he created both. In a sense, God read the book, then created the author and gave him all of the experiences he needed to result in the ending.

This existence is God’s book. He knew from before creation how he wanted it to unfold and how it would end. Even your wrong answers are part of that book.

You claim you are the author of your own life. Are you free to write yourself as free from pain? No, you can’t. I personally hate the taste of mushrooms. Can I write that I all of the sudden love the taste? Can I author myself to be taller? What about who my parents are, or the values I was raised with? Could I have authored myself to have learned quicker as a child or have a different upbringing? There are an immeasurable amount of events that went into who I am, of which I had no authorship. Even something as simple as choosing what to eat for breakfast is the result of factors I’m not consciously aware of.

Not true without God you would not even have a book. But again you missed the point I was making, I said Just because God knows what we will do, as I compared it to a book because you can read a book know the ending and not be responsible for the ending of the book. It is the same with God.

He knows what we will do. I don’t care if you are tall or short, fat or skinny, ugly or beautiful. I don’t care what kind of surroundings you were given to grow up in. My Dad had 13 bros and sis. His brothers all had a problem with drinking. Papa chose not to drink. You have free will to do whatever you choose.

You could have had a brother or sister who went exactly through everything you went through and you two could be exact opposites.

There are people who have 2 children. One could grow up to become a Priest, one could be an atheist. It is free will, has nothing to do with how you were raised.
You can CHOOSE to repeat your home life good or bad. its up to you.

But God has nothing to do with our book of life that is created. Our Parents do have free will to raise us as they choose, I will agree with that, but then at a certain age we are free, and have free will to live our life as we see fit. again highly disagree with you.

You are still blaming God for what others do. God did not write the book, we did with our own free will and choices, the book ends as we choose it to end.

If you have no free will from God how could you choose to not accept him, or believe in him, unless you are going to say an atheist rejects God because God wants him to. Please.

But let me say one thing, God can guide you and help you along the way if you ask him too. But it still the book is still ours to live from our own free will. God can help if we ask, but only if we ask, and only if we listen. But we still must make the choice in the end to obey or disobey him. We are still in control of our free will.

 

[rinnie]

I would contend that he did not have free will to begin with. God knew how Saul would react if he revealed himself, and he knew how he would react if he hadn’t given him the revelation.

Now before you say foreknowledge doesn’t equal causation, in the case of God, he also created Saul (and all of us for that matter).

If you create something (Paul’s mind) with a full understanding of how it will act in a given situation, and then you actively place it in that circumstance (revelation on the road to Damascus), then it follows that you control the outcome (Paul stops persecuting). Sure he made a choice, but under what basis do you assert that it was free?

This is where you and I differ. While I agree with you by God revealing the truth to Saul it did have an impact on what Saul was doing. I do agree with you here.

But here is where I strongly Disagree with you. Rather or not God knew that revealing to Saul the truth, it still did not take aways Sauls freedom to continue persecuting the church or to not persecute the Church. Yes the truth was in he favor of God, by revealing it to Saul.

But you are saying that because God created Saul with a full understanding of how his mind works, that Paul has no control over his mind, that God controls it. I totally disagree with you.

You say Saul made a choice, but what basis do I believe it was free. And as I stated that is simple, God will not impart his will on us, he gives us the freedom to make up our own minds.

How can someone make a choice, if it is not a free choice? If God manipulated the mind of Saul, which is what I see you saying, then Saul never had a choice, alone a free choice.

Because God created us all to do his will and to follow him. But he still gave us FREE WILL to do this. Even the devil was created to do the will of God, but how could the devil choose to disobey God, when he was created the same. Or are you saying Saul was created different then Satan?

 

[Giovonni]

This is where you and I differ. While I agree with you by God revealing the truth to Saul it did have an impact on what Saul was doing. I do agree with you here.

But here is where I strongly Disagree with you. Rather or not God knew that revealing to Saul the truth, it still did not take aways Sauls freedom to continue persecuting the church or to not persecute the Church. Yes the truth was in he favor of God, by revealing it to Saul.

But you are saying that because God created Saul with a full understanding of how his mind works, that Paul has no control over his mind, that God controls it. I totally disagree with you.

You say Saul made a choice, but what basis do I believe it was free. And as I stated that is simple, God will not impart his will on us, he gives us the freedom to make up our own minds.

How can someone make a choice, if it is not a free choice? If God manipulated the mind of Saul, which is what I see you saying, then Saul never had a choice, alone a free choice.

Because God created us all to do his will and to follow him. But he still gave us FREE WILL to do this. Even the devil was created to do the will of God, but how could the devil choose to disobey God, when he was created the same. Or are you saying Saul was created different then Satan?

I’m going to respond to both of your posts here. Yes, I think you hit the nail on the head with where we disagree. I don’t think we have control over our minds in the way that is required for us to have free will. When we were infants, we had thoughts. We wanted to eat, to sleep, to be held. We had no control over these. I think we both can agree on that right? We wouldn’t say an infant has free will. Yet somewhere along the way, we change. We say, well now that I can rationalize my decisions, it must mean I control them. But that is not accurate. While our reasoning skills become complex, how we arrive at decisions is still a result of our desire to eat, sleep, and be loved. We get better at justifying our actions and blaming others for theirs.

Scientists have shown that in the seconds leading up to a conscious choice, our brains actually already have made the decision. We just aren’t conscious of it yet.

Even twin siblings have vastly different experiences that shape their behavior. No two people have exactly the same experience, no matter how close they are. Your Papa’s decision to abstain from alcohol is commendable. And I am certain that he had strong influences which shaped his decision. It was highly probably that your father would drink, as his siblings. But something in his environment shaped his thinking to recognize that was not the path for him.

 

[rinnie]

I’m going to respond to both of your posts here. Yes, I think you hit the nail on the head with where we disagree. I don’t think we have control over our minds in the way that is required for us to have free will. When we were infants, we had thoughts. We wanted to eat, to sleep, to be held. We had no control over these. I think we both can agree on that right? We wouldn’t say an infant has free will. Yet somewhere along the way, we change. We say, well now that I can rationalize my decisions, it must mean I control them. But that is not accurate. While our reasoning skills become complex, how we arrive at decisions is still a result of our desire to eat, sleep, and be loved. We get better at justifying our actions and blaming others for theirs.

Scientists have shown that in the seconds leading up to a conscious choice, our brains actually already have made the decision. We just aren’t conscious of it yet.

Even twin siblings have vastly different experiences that shape their behavior. No two people have exactly the same experience, no matter how close they are. Your Papa’s decision to abstain from alcohol is commendable. And I am certain that he had strong influences which shaped his decision. It was highly probably that your father would drink, as his siblings. But something in his environment shaped his thinking to recognize that was not the path for him.

Okay lets say I agree with you on this, and I agree that thing’s in your environment can shape the way that you think, I have no disagreement with you here. But how could my Papa make the decision to NOT drink, when his brothers would not STOP drinking, by any means take away Papas free will to drink, or his brothers free will to not stop drinking? It was exactly as you claimed it was the Father who drank, and ALL of those kids who were subject to that exact environment.

Although they all hated what the old man did, some did the opposite and some became just like him. So again Papa used his free will to not do it, they used their free will to do it.

The only way that you can make your story stick is to say that his brothers were not subject to what the old man did and how he acted when he drank, and you would be wrong, I told you that they all hated what old man acted like. So are you saying papa had free will but they did not? Or God took away papa’s free will to drink, but gave it to the brothers? That is the only way your story will work. And it will be false, Papa had free will to drink every single day of his life. He did not choose to do so.

 

[rinnie]

I agree infants do not have thoughts to have or even use free will. But I do not believe its thought they have human needs.

But when a child becomes of the age that it knows right from wrong, free will begins. when a child understands if he takes a candy bar out of the store and not pay for it, he is sinning and can go to jail, but he does it anyway. He just used his own free will to sin and steal.

 

[rinnie]

To clarify, I didn’t state that Paul would know how to react in any situation. I said that *God *would know how Paul will react in either situation A or situation B because God created Paul’s mind. With that knowledge, God actualized situation A where Paul was converted. Perhaps I’m not the one who needs to re-read what I wrote.

Do you think God didn’t know the reason why Saul was persecuting the church? I’m pretty certain he did know. So why even ask? It was a rhetorical question for the purpose of changing his mind and the men he was traveling with.

And to address your main question about why would God have Saul persecute the CC and then confront him about it? Well I don’t know the mind of God, but I can speculate. During this Paul was temporarily blinded. In a sense we are all blind to Christ until he makes himself known to us. As Paul says, “no one understands, no one seeks God”.

now here you say you have no idea why God would HAVE Saul persecute the CC and then confront him about it. To begin with the reason you have no idea is because God did NOT have Saul persecute the CC. Saul chose to do this on his own. It is not the fault of God that Saul did this, if so you must prove it. You must prove that it was the will of God for Saul to kill Christians, that is false. God’s will is never to have anyone sin.

Next I am sure God knew why Saul was persecuting the CC and that is why he asked him why are you persecuting ME.

So yes God showed Saul his SIN, he revealed to him that he was sinning. Then Saul had the choice to continue that Sin, or stop persecuting the Church. Saul not only chose to STOP persecuting the CC. He Chose to FOLLOW the teaching of Christ in his Church and put his own life on the line for God.

Saul had money, Saul was a important person in the community and a educated Man.

He Chose to give ALL of that up for God and follow God through his CC.God did not command Saul to give up anything.

 

[Giovonni]

Okay lets say I agree with you on this, and I agree that thing’s in your environment can shape the way that you think, I have no disagreement with you here. But how could my Papa make the decision to NOT drink, when his brothers would not STOP drinking, by any means take away Papas free will to drink, or his brothers free will to not stop drinking? It was exactly as you claimed it was the Father who drank, and ALL of those kids who were subject to that exact environment.

Although they all hated what the old man did, some did the opposite and some became just like him. So again Papa used his free will to not do it, they used their free will to do it.

The only way that you can make your story stick is to say that his brothers were not subject to what the old man did and how he acted when he drank, and you would be wrong, I told you that they all hated what old man acted like. So are you saying papa had free will but they did not? Or God took away papa’s free will to drink, but gave it to the brothers? That is the only way your story will work. And it will be false, Papa had free will to drink every single day of his life. He did not choose to do so.

Since we are using personal examples, allow me to tell you one of mine. Years back my wife was diagnosed with a brain tumor. Thank God it was benign, and they removed it. But for years she has had migraines as a result of the surgery. To treat it, the doctors gave her an anti-seizure medication called Topamax, which works by affecting the neurotransmitters in the brain. One of the common side effects she had from this drug were extreme mood swings. She went from happy go lucky person, to horrendous fits of anger and frustration. It affected everything she did. So the doctor put her on another medication that affected her serotonin levels. This drug was even worse because she felt absolutely no emotion. She didn’t care about her family, her job, her life. It got so bad that I had to physically throw the pills away. When she got off that drug, she looked back on that time and told me how she truly felt like she was a psychopath. She just had no empathy.

Her knowledge and her life experiences had not changed, the only thing that changed was the chemistry in her brain. And boy did it change her. You cannot tell me that her fits of anger or her decision making during that time was free. She was a completely different person.

The human brain is an amazing thing, but the chemicals that affect thought are easily affected by simple changes. What we eat, whether we exercise, how we learn or how much TV we watch all change our brain chemistry, and as a result change the choices we make. Your Papa’s brothers aren’t alcoholics because they freely want too. They are because alcoholism is a disease of the brain. Everyone’s brain chemistry is different. That is why two people raised under similar circumstances can make very different choices.

 

[rinnie]

Okay, and I get what you are saying. But let me tell you this, my husband is so easy going happy go lucky a Saint when it comes to patience and being mellow.

He had cancer and when he took kemo he turned into a rattle snake at times. The Dr said of course he will they are putting poison in his body.

So can your free will be taken away from certain drugs? I can agree with that.

But there are always exceptions to the rules.

I have been going through the ole change, mood swings sweats, etc. I have alot of surgerys in the last 6 months. I went through a total hysterectomy in Dec. I asked the Dr if it would end the sweats, mood swings. He said I should be right where I was before the operation. I said good because I did not want to cheat my husband out of those mood swings

But here is my point when I became aware of my mood swings I used my free will to try to control my anger, etc a little better.

The same with my husband, I would put on the calendar knowing that kemo was for 3 more months 90 more days of being nice to hubby. I became better at understanding, and once he was aware he became more easy to get along with, and instead of going into a rage he would say oh babe I could just kill someone right now. I would say I know say a prayer and ask God to help you, and me, then we would laugh.

But back to the point I know with some drugs you do not have control. But that is not God taking away your free will, that is drugs controlling you. That is why these kids on drugs gave up their free will to the devil. They wanted the high.

You wife and my husband were in a different position, they gave up their free will for a time, because of a medical problem. When you do not have free will to choose to sin or not sin God understands this, and does not hold it against you. There are exceptions to the rule.

But back to papas family how do you explain that?

 

[rinnie]

Since we are using personal examples, allow me to tell you one of mine. Years back my wife was diagnosed with a brain tumor. Thank God it was benign, and they removed it. But for years she has had migraines as a result of the surgery. To treat it, the doctors gave her an anti-seizure medication called Topamax, which works by affecting the neurotransmitters in the brain. One of the common side effects she had from this drug were extreme mood swings. She went from happy go lucky person, to horrendous fits of anger and frustration. It affected everything she did. So the doctor put her on another medication that affected her serotonin levels. This drug was even worse because she felt absolutely no emotion. She didn’t care about her family, her job, her life. It got so bad that I had to physically throw the pills away. When she got off that drug, she looked back on that time and told me how she truly felt like she was a psychopath. She just had no empathy.

Her knowledge and her life experiences had not changed, the only thing that changed was the chemistry in her brain. And boy did it change her. You cannot tell me that her fits of anger or her decision making during that time was free. She was a completely different person.

The human brain is an amazing thing, but the chemicals that affect thought are easily affected by simple changes. What we eat, whether we exercise, how we learn or how much TV we watch all change our brain chemistry, and as a result change the choices we make. Your Papa’s brothers aren’t alcoholics because they freely want too. They are because alcoholism is a disease of the brain. Everyone’s brain chemistry is different. That is why two people raised under similar circumstances can make very different choices.

And I disagree with you about Papa’s family. Although I do agree some people can drink everyday for their whole life, then choose to stop. There are social drinkers, and alcoholics.

A social drinker can drink everyday, one or two or none, and be fine. A alcoholic must have it and cannot stop after just one.

But if you are saying his brothers had no control to stop drinking I disagree. That is why there is AA. For people who hand over their free will to Alcohol.

They learn that in order to keep that free will, they cannot drink. People quit all the time. IF they use their free will to give up the drink. And they were alcoholics because they chose to be, they wanted the alcohol more then their free will.

You hear it on TV all the time, You have to WANT to change in order to change. Thats free will, choice. And no one can force you to quit, if they put you in rehab, it will not work unless you want it. Free will to WANT IT!!

 

[BobCatholic]

How does God saying no to you instead of yes break him promise to give us what we need? Just because you are not getting what you are asking for does not mean he does not give to us what we need.

Your comment assumes that what I ask for, I do not need.

Unless I am independently wealthy, I need steady employment. Asking God for it is asking God for something I need.

.

Faith is blind,

Utterly false.

Faith is like going to the circus, and meeting the high wire act guy. He rides a bike successfully across a high wire several times. Then he asks someone in the audience to ride with him on his back on the high wire. The one who has faith says yes to that.

Faith is trusting someone who has proven themselves trustworthy. You know you can count on that.

I HATE it when that scripture is so badly misinterpreted “walk with faith, not by sight” meaning “faith is blind.” No. If one is blind, one has to use other senses to help them “see” the world. Smell. Touch. Taste. Hearing.

Faith is like one of the senses, which allow one to know God - and trust God.

Faith is asking and knowing that what you need will come, maybe not the way you wanted it, but knowing your prayer will be answered

I have faith that God answered my prayers.
If I didn’t get what I asked for, the answer was clearly no.

 

[BobCatholic]

And if you think you know what you need more then God, then I have no words for you. God has his reasons for what he is doing.

Which he will not explain or tell me or even give me a hint, or even give me encouragement.

God does sometimes say no. Accept it, and ask him for his Grace to accept the no’s you receive and help you to move on. With his grace You can do anything.

I can’t.

If I ask for what I need, and God says no to what I need, therefore my needs must be evil.
I didn’t know healing my son of his mental disease was evil, or a steady job was evil.

Tell me Bob, I know what God has not given you. But could you possibly take out a moment in your day and write me down what God has given you that you are thankful for.

I am grateful for what I have.
I am worried it will go away.
When they do, I’m doomed to become evil.

Things like that are indeed God revealing himself on earth. The love and happiness in that little boys eyes. The innocence. And Bob, it did not cost me a dime. Okay a buck for the gun and a buck for the bubbles.

Unfortunately, we are infertile (another punishment from God, as scripture says) and I can’t ever have any more kids. I’ll never know that again.

Is this in the New Testament?

Is there a rule somewhere that everything must be in the Bible? Sola Scriptura is not a Catholic doctrine.

Bob Catholic. Let me ask you one question. Here is one.

You claim God does not help us with our problems here on earth (temporal problems) you call them. Okay then what WHERE would we be then to ask for his help with our problems? Heaven???

God cares about the spiritual, so if you ask for spiritual things, no problem, you get them. God said he will be glad to give the Holy Spirit to anyone who asks.

Temporal things, are subject to his will which is unknown and sometimes capricious and arbitrary.

Again you claim God does not help us with our temporal problems. I don’t get it. Again please clarify.

I don’t know why God asks us to do the impossible, if he is not fixing the buggy software. Especially when I ask for help to become perfect, and don’t get it.

Yes, we are all called to be saints. I want to be a saint. I can’t do it on my own. And if God does not want to help, game over, I’m doomed.

 

[Vico]

…

Yes, we are all called to be saints. I want to be a saint. I can’t do it on my own. And if God does not want to help, game over, I’m doomed.

The Catholic Church teaching is that God always gives this help. The loss is when the one that receives the help rejects it. Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, Ludwig Ott shows these:

• God is infinitely just. (De fide.)
• God is infinitely merciful. (De fide.)
• God through His providence, protects and guides all that He has created. (De fide.)
• Internal supernatural grace is absolutely necessary for the beginning of faith and of salvation. (De fide.)
• God gives all the just sufficent grace (gratia proxime vel remote sufficiens) for the observation of the Divine Commandments. (De fide.)
• The Human Will remains free under the influence of efficacious grace, which is not irresistable. (De fide.)
• There is a grace which is truly sufficient and yet remains inefficacious (gratia vere et mere sufficiens. (De fide.)

Catechism teaching on Justification

1990 Justification detaches man from sin which contradicts the love of God, and purifies his heart of sin. Justification follows upon God’s merciful initiative of offering forgiveness. It reconciles man with God. It frees from the enslavement to sin, and it heals.

1991 Justification is at the same time the acceptance of God’s righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ. Righteousness (or “justice”) here means the rectitude of divine love. With justification, faith, hope, and charity are poured into our hearts, and obedience to the divine will is granted us.

 

[rinnie]

Your comment assumes that what I ask for, I do not need.

Unless I am independently wealthy, I need steady employment. Asking God for it is asking God for something I need.

.

Utterly false.
y
Faith is like going to the circus, and meeting the high wire act guy. He rides a bike successfully across a high wire several times. Then he asks someone in the audience to ride with him on his back on the high wire. The one who has faith says yes to that.

Faith is trusting someone who has proven themselves trustworthy. You know you can count on that.

I HATE it when that scripture is so badly misinterpreted “walk with faith, not by sight” meaning “faith is blind.” No. If one is blind, one has to use other senses to help them “see” the world. Smell. Touch. Taste. Hearing.

Faith is like one of the senses, which allow one to know God - and trust God.

I have faith that God answered my prayers.
If I didn’t get what I asked for, the answer was clearly no.

No Bob blind faith, is believing and not seeing. You do not have to be blind. Blind faith is knowing that even if you do not get what you ask for, you accept it and ask for more Grace from God to carry on. Blind faith is knowing just because you do not get what you want if it was the will of God it would happen. And if it does not happen it either will not, or will in the time God chooses. Faith is not one of our senses, we do not smell it, touch it, see it , taste it, nor hear it.

 

[rinnie]

Which he will not explain or tell me or even give me a hint, or even give me encouragement.

I can’t.

If I ask for what I need, and God says no to what I need, therefore my needs must be evil.
I didn’t know healing my son of his mental disease was evil, or a steady job was evil.

I am grateful for what I have.
I am worried it will go away.
When they do, I’m doomed to become evil.

Unfortunately, we are infertile (another punishment from God, as scripture says) and I can’t ever have any more kids. I’ll never know that again.

Is there a rule somewhere that everything must be in the Bible? Sola Scriptura is not a Catholic doctrine.
rinnie;14554369:

Bob Catholic. Let me ask you one question. Here is one.

You claim God does not help us with our problems here on earth (temporal problems) you call them. Okay then what WHERE would we be then to ask for his help with our problems? Heaven???

God cares about the spiritual, so if you ask for spiritual things, no problem, you get them. God said he will be glad to give the Holy Spirit to anyone who asks.

Temporal things, are subject to his will which is unknown and sometimes capricious and arbitrary.

OK, then why won’t God give me a steady job? Why won’t God heal my son’s mental disease? I asked and asked and asked…what kind of Father demands that his children beg and beg and beg for long periods of time before he decides to say “OK, that’s enough, answer is yes” and the request is fulfilled.

I don’t know why God asks us to do the impossible, if he is not fixing the buggy software. Especially when I ask for help to become perfect, and don’t get it.

Yes, we are all called to be saints. I want to be a saint. I can’t do it on my own. And if God does not want to help, game over, I’m doomed.

Sometimes Bob its ourselves who are at fault for not holding a job.

We can never question God or tell him when we feel we had enough, true faith lets us leave that up to God.

It is impossible to become a Saint w/o the grace of God. And God has never asked the impossible, he knows what we can handle.

 

[rinnie]

Your comment assumes that what I ask for, I do not need.

Unless I am independently wealthy, I need steady employment. Asking God for it is asking God for something I need.

.

Utterly false.

Faith is like going to the circus, and meeting the high wire act guy. He rides a bike successfully across a high wire several times. Then he asks someone in the audience to ride with him on his back on the high wire. The one who has faith says yes to that.

Faith is trusting someone who has proven themselves trustworthy. You know you can count on that.

I HATE it when that scripture is so badly misinterpreted “walk with faith, not by sight” meaning “faith is blind.” No. If one is blind, one has to use other senses to help them “see” the world. Smell. Touch. Taste. Hearing.

Faith is like one of the senses, which allow one to know God - and trust God.

I have faith that God answered my prayers.
If I didn’t get what I asked for, the answer was clearly no.

No Bob I do not know what you need, God does. I assume nothing.

And I would never ride on a wire. He is only human, I was taught anytime you put your faith in humans, you will be disappointed to only put your faith in God.

 

[BobCatholic]

No Bob blind faith, is believing and not seeing. You do not have to be blind. Blind faith is knowing that even if you do not get what you ask for, you accept it and ask for more Grace from God to carry on. Blind faith is knowing just because you do not get what you want if it was the will of God it would happen. And if it does not happen it either will not, or will in the time God chooses. Faith is not one of our senses, we do not smell it, touch it, see it , taste it, nor hear it.

Faith is a gift from God.

Making sure one cannot see God is not a gift from God. That comes from the guy downstairs.

That’s “blind faith” - and atheists mock it, and rightfully so, because it is not real faith.

And yes, faith (the real thing) is a sense, a supernatural sense, given by God. With faith, one knows God, and can see him. Not by eyes, but in a way that they see Jesus in everyone. It is a sense.

Like the reading in today’s mass. Lord, help me to see (have faith).

Now, can we get back to the topic at hand - is our free choice real? I think that free choice is not real if we are imperfect.