Is our free choice real

[Vico]

Free from all sin is not perfect, they were created imperfect.

Yes, they were free from all sin, but thanks to imperfections, they fell.

They were in a perfect state.

The fell by their free will choice because the grace of God makes it possible to resist temptations for those in the state of sanctifying grace.

 

[BobCatholic]

They were in a perfect state.

The fell by their free will choice because the grace of God makes it possible to resist temptations for those in the state of sanctifying grace.

They were in a state of grace, they were not perfect.

They had the imperfections of fear, naievete, ignorance, pridefulness and/or stupidity.

A state of grace that was temporary at best. Due to imperfections, it was only a matter of time before they fell.

A state of grace that is temporary is not a perfect state. Temporary means it is going away because of the impoerfections. If Adam and Eve were created perfect, they would have been permanently in a state of grace like Mary was.

A perfect state is a permanent state of grace like Mary, the saints and angels are in.

 

[fbl9]

snip…

I don’t know. All I know are the angels are perfect. The fallen ones (demons) are not.

Let’s start with what we do know.
That all the angels were in heaven with God.
That some rebelled and fell from heaven.
So based on what you claim there was imperfection in heaven. By your claim that the fallen angels were imperfect.
Now we are left with was there imperfections in heaven or did those angels that fell freely choose to disobey.
If the angels were created imperfect what made those angels that stayed with God perfect?

 

[Vico]

They were in a state of grace, they were not perfect.

They had the imperfections of fear, naievete, ignorance, pridefulness and/or stupidity.

A state of grace that was temporary at best. Due to imperfections, it was only a matter of time before they fell.

A state of grace that is temporary is not a perfect state. Temporary means it is going away because of the impoerfections. If Adam and Eve were created perfect, they would have been permanently in a state of grace like Mary was.

A perfect state is a permanent state of grace like Mary, the saints and angels are in.

You misunderstand the meaning of perfect state of grace. It is state where one is justified so will be in heaven if death occurred. Too stay in a state of sanctifying grace requires free will cooperation to maintain it, but it is a perfect state while it is maintained. They chose to sin if was not forced on them.

 

[fbl9]

You misunderstand the meaning of perfect state of grace. It is state where one is justified so will be in heaven if death occurred. Too stay in a state of sanctifying grace requires free will cooperation to maintain it, but it is a perfect state while it is maintained. They chose to sin if was not forced on them.

If i am understanding BobCatholic, he does understand perfect in the sense of grace. It is us being imperfect due to concupiscence. This fatal flaw in the system means we can never win. And we can never win unless God wants us to.
For example i consider myself blessed, BobCatholic on the other hand does not consider himself blessed.Because i consider myself blessed Bob would be inclined to say God wants me.

 

[fbl9]

They were in a state of grace, they were not perfect.

They had the imperfections of fear, naievete, ignorance, pridefulness and/or stupidity.

Fear obviously they did not fear enough.
To be innocent is an imperfection. Well i do not know what to say.
Well to be given the choice to be like God or not?
How can you measure stupidity? Let’s see what was there to know, not much. The only thing they knew was do not eat of the tree.

 

[Vico]

If i am understanding BobCatholic, he does understand perfect in the sense of grace. It is us being imperfect due to concupiscence. This fatal flaw in the system means we can never win. And we can never win unless God wants us to.
For example i consider myself blessed, BobCatholic on the other hand does not consider himself blessed.Because i consider myself blessed Bob would be inclined to say God wants me.

He is referring to Adam and Eve that did not have concupiscence.

If an athlete runs a race and wins, it is due to being both capable of it and of the use of the will to achieve it. The Christian is made capable of salvation through the grace of God, not by human nature.

It is a denial of a revealed truth of the Catholic faith to say that God does not provide for the salvation of all, even though one may be predestined (not predetermined) to damnation.

 

[BobCatholic]

Let’s start with what we do know.
That all the angels were in heaven with God.
That some rebelled and fell from heaven.
So based on what you claim there was imperfection in heaven. By your claim that the fallen angels were imperfect.
Now we are left with was there imperfections in heaven or did those angels that fell freely choose to disobey.
If the angels were created imperfect what made those angels that stayed with God perfect?

If the angels who remained in heaven chose to be with God, what stops them from falling?

If we get to heaven, what will stop us from falling?

The “fallen angels” teaching is very disturbing.

 

[Aloysium]

If the angels who remained in heaven chose to be with God, what stops them from falling?

If we get to heaven, what will stop us from falling?

The “fallen angels” teaching is very disturbing.

Our time here will be done. Our lives a testimony to our choice, We will complete our journey to become who we are for eternity, as did the angels, outside of time, in the moment of their creation. That their fall is disturbing is a sign that you wish not to follow their lead.

 

[Vico]

If the angels who remained in heaven chose to be with God, what stops them from falling?

If we get to heaven, what will stop us from falling?

The “fallen angels” teaching is very disturbing.

There is no change after the angel’s choice, nor in man’s choice, after death.

Catechism

393 It is the irrevocable character of their choice, and not a defect in the infinite divine mercy, that makes the angels’ sin unforgivable. “There is no repentance for the angels after their fall, just as there is no repentance for men after death.” 272
272 St. John Damascene, De Fide orth. 2,4: PG 94,877.

 

[fbl9]

If the angels who remained in heaven chose to be with God, what stops them from falling?

If we get to heaven, what will stop us from falling?

The “fallen angels” teaching is very disturbing.

The angels were created in eternity thus their choice was eternal.
We who were made in time have the time and the God given grace to make firm our choice.
Once we die we will then be subjected to eternity. And the choice made in this lifetime will be our eternal choice.

 

[BobCatholic]

The angels were created in eternity thus their choice was eternal.
We who were made in time have the time and the God given grace to make firm our choice.
Once we die we will then be subjected to eternity. And the choice made in this lifetime will be our eternal choice.

Then what will stop my eternal choice from being undone?

There is no change after the angel’s choice, nor in man’s choice, after death.

So how did the angels fall?

That their fall is disturbing is a sign that you wish not to follow their lead.

I don’t like the other guy (the one downstairs). I hate him. I don’t want to go to his place.

I also don’t want to go to heaven because I don’t love God enough. I want to. I want to get closer to him but have failed all my life through various spiritual practices to do so.

So I’m making the choice, but is my choice free? My choice is not free because I am woefully inadequate for anything that would please God, and thus I can’t please God.

My imperfections keep God from wanting me. Yet I ask God to take away those imperfections, and he won’t do it. So where is my choice?

My choice is between a devil I don’t want and a God who doesn’t want me.

Imperfections kill free will.

 

[Vico]

…

Read Isaiah 14:11-13 for the fall.

Humans have until the their death to establish the state of sanctifying grace. Because we are utterly dependent upon God’s gifts of grace which He freely gives we can use our free wills to repent and cooperate with it to be saved. The angels could not repent because their knowledge makes their first decision final.

 

[fbl9]

Then what will stop my eternal choice from being undone?

snip…

l.

The choice is eternal therefore it is made for eternity.If it could be undone it was not eternal.

 

[Vico]

Then what will stop my eternal choice from being undone?

So how did the angels fall?

I don’t like the other guy (the one downstairs). I hate him. I don’t want to go to his place.

I also don’t want to go to heaven because I don’t love God enough. I want to. I want to get closer to him but have failed all my life through various spiritual practices to do so.

So I’m making the choice, but is my choice free? My choice is not free because I am woefully inadequate for anything that would please God, and thus I can’t please God.

My imperfections keep God from wanting me. Yet I ask God to take away those imperfections, and he won’t do it. So where is my choice?

My choice is between a devil I don’t want and a God who doesn’t want me.

Imperfections kill free will.

This statement is illogical: “My choice is not free because I am woefully inadequate for anything that would please God, and thus I can’t please God.”

If you are so afflicted with psychological or neurological disorders that you cannot act freely, then there is no culpability. This is the case of people that never attain the use of reason: they cannot sin.

 

[BobCatholic]

Read Isaiah 14:11-13 for the fall.

Humans have until the their death to establish the state of sanctifying grace. Because we are utterly dependent upon God’s gifts of grace which He freely gives we can use our free wills to repent and cooperate with it to be saved. The angels could not repent because their knowledge makes their first decision final.

I know this, the problem is : Once one is in heaven, what stops them from falling?

1/3 of the angels were in heaven and fell. This is a disturbing teaching.

The choice is eternal therefore it is made for eternity.If it could be undone it was not eternal.

Precisely, so how did those angels fall?

This statement is illogical: “My choice is not free because I am woefully inadequate for anything that would please God, and thus I can’t please God.”

If you are so afflicted with psychological or neurological disorders that you cannot act freely, then there is no culpability. This is the case of people that never attain the use of reason: they cannot sin.

If I can’t please God, culpability doesn’t matter. The elevator is still going down for me.

That’s why I want to know, love and please God. But I am not able. I’m too imperfect.

 

[Vico]

I know this, the problem is : Once one is in heaven, what stops them from falling?

1/3 of the angels were in heaven and fell. This is a disturbing teaching.

Precisely, so how did those angels fall?

If I can’t please God, culpability doesn’t matter. The elevator is still going down for me.

That’s why I want to know, love and please God. But I am not able. I’m too imperfect.

None fall after death.

Revelation 21:

4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes: and death shall be no more, nor mourning, nor crying, nor sorrow shall be any more, for the former things are passed away.

Culpability does matter, for without culpability for grave sins, there is no mortal sin and no loss of sanctifying grace. Those that die in a state of sanctifying grace sin attain heaven.

 

[BobCatholic]

None fall after death.

The angels fell after they went to heaven, how do I know we won’t fall after we go to heaven?

Culpability does matter, for without culpability for grave sins, there is no mortal sin and no loss of sanctifying grace. Those that die in a state of sanctifying grace sin attain heaven.

Culpability doesn’t matter. If Jesus says “I don’t know you” despite doing good deeds and living a good live…no culpability yet elevator down.

 

[Vico]

The angels fell after they went to heaven, how do I know we won’t fall after we go to heaven?

Culpability doesn’t matter. If Jesus says “I don’t know you” despite doing good deeds and living a good live…no culpability yet elevator down.

I have you the statement of why we won’t fall from heaven in the other post. Read it!

Culpability for grace sin means that a person is responsible for their sin, it is mortal. This is what would exclude the baptized from heaven. No, for the baptized hell is not a possibility without culpability.

 

[BobCatholic]

I have you the statement of why we won’t fall from heaven in the other post. Read it!

That promise is for those who remain in heaven. I’m not going to interpret that as hell no longer existing (since the opposite of that verse happens in hell).

Culpability for grace sin means that a person is responsible for their sin, it is mortal. This is what would exclude the baptized from heaven. No, for the baptized hell is not a possibility without culpability.

Then how did those angels fall? No culpability, and thus they’re in hell.