Is our free choice real

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Utterly false.

God’s grace is not given to those who won’t cooperate with it.
God won’t help someone who can’t or won’t cooperate with him.
God won’t save anyone without their cooperation.
God will not connect with anyone unless they go through the Dark Night of the Senses, Dark Night of the Soul and then union. Period. End of sentence.
God does not answer “yes” to prayers if we don’t do what his will is in regards to the prayer requests.

I could keep going. God’s actions ARE contingent on human actions.

A blessing only if resources are given to make it happen.

Kicking them out of the Garden deprived them of most of the resources needed to make this a blessing. Now it is just a responsibility, after the fall.

And those like me who are suffering from infertility, are cursed by God.
His will is not contingent because God knows all, being not subject to time. God is changeless.

God always loves his children so there is no curse, but there are divine laws with consequences for their own good.
 
His will is not contingent because God know all, being not subject to time. God is changeless.
Then why won’t God say yes to good things like a steady job, or healing my son of his disease?

Because those things are evil.

Or God’s yes is contingent on something I’m not doing.
God always loves his children so there is no curse, but there are divine laws with consequences for their own good.
Then why does the Bible describe infertility as a curse?
 
Then why won’t God say yes to good things like a steady job, or healing my son of his disease?

Because those things are evil.

Or God’s yes is contingent on something I’m not doing.

Then why does the Bible describe infertility as a curse?
God brings good out of what we call ill fortune, even though we do not comprehend it. There are reasons that some are healed and others are not. Ultimately though, the spiritual good is the goal not the things of this life.

You mean curse as in Deuteronomy 28:15 I take it.

Different people at different times are under different covenants. We are under the new covenant as Christians.

Haydock Commentary is:

Ver. 15. All these curses, &c. Thus God dealt with the transgressors of his law in the Old Testament: but now he often suffers sinners to prosper in this world, rewarding them for some little good they have done, and reserving their punishment for the other world.

Matt 25:31 shows how now:

31 And when the Son of man shall come in his majesty, and all the Angels with him, then shall he sit upon the seat of his majesty:

32 And all nations shall be gathered together before him, and he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats:

33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 Then shall the king say to them that shall be on his right hand: Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
 
Something to think about…
If we have no free will, how was it that Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit
 
God brings good out of what we call ill fortune, even though we do not comprehend it. There are reasons that some are healed and others are not. Ultimately though, the spiritual good is the goal not the things of this life.
Right, because God only cares about the spiritual and does not care one iota about the temporal.

Somehow people are to survive this life in a state of grace without any temporal help.
You mean curse as in Deuteronomy 28:15 I take it.
More like verse 18.

So clearly his actions are contingent on us following his commands. Perfectly. Yes, we get forgiven in confession, but who cares about that when the temporal punishment in Deut 28:18 still happens. Slap slap slap, bad boy, now you can’t have kids. Who cares if you repent and go to confession, you’re still punished.

There appears to be no way to get ALL temporal punishments obliterated. Even indulgences are not working.
Ver. 15. All these curses, &c. Thus God dealt with the transgressors of his law in the Old Testament: but now he often suffers sinners to prosper in this world, rewarding them for some little good they have done, and reserving their punishment for the other world.
So God does not give pleasant things to good people, he only gives it to evil people and then says “SIKE! You’re going to hell!” at judgment day.

This is why we must be perfect, because we will get spanked here. Guaranteed.

We will get the temporal punishments guaranteed, but temporal blessings optional, not needed - at least God thinks they’re not needed.
Matt 25:31 shows how now:
Yup. God demands for us to do what he does not want to do. Take care of temporal problems, somehow, without him helping us temporally since he has zero obligation or willingness to help in that area. God does not care about the temporal needs of his people.

Somehow we must figure out how to get past this life, while in a state of grace, without any temporal help from above.

Ask for a fish, get a rock. Ask for bread, get a scorpion instead.

In this one area, God and the devil have something in common: Not caring about us. The devil doesn’t care about our temporal needs, and neither does God.

So, how is this loving?
 
Right, because God only cares about the spiritual and does not care one iota about the temporal.

Somehow people are to survive this life in a state of grace without any temporal help.

More like verse 18.

So clearly his actions are contingent on us following his commands. Perfectly. Yes, we get forgiven in confession, but who cares about that when the temporal punishment in Deut 28:18 still happens. Slap slap slap, bad boy, now you can’t have kids. Who cares if you repent and go to confession, you’re still punished.

There appears to be no way to get ALL temporal punishments obliterated. Even indulgences are not working.

So God does not give pleasant things to good people, he only gives it to evil people and then says “SIKE! You’re going to hell!” at judgment day.

This is why we must be perfect, because we will get spanked here. Guaranteed.

We will get the temporal punishments guaranteed, but temporal blessings optional, not needed - at least God thinks they’re not needed.

Yup. God demands for us to do what he does not want to do. Take care of temporal problems, somehow, without him helping us temporally since he has zero obligation or willingness to help in that area. God does not care about the temporal needs of his people.

Somehow we must figure out how to get past this life, while in a state of grace, without any temporal help from above.

Ask for a fish, get a rock. Ask for bread, get a scorpion instead.

In this one area, God and the devil have something in common: Not caring about us. The devil doesn’t care about our temporal needs, and neither does God.

So, how is this loving?
I would venture to say that there are just as many prosperous Christians in this world as evil people maybe even more.
I would consider myself very blessed to be where i am at in this life. So by Bobs standard i must be a very very evil scumbag. Personally myself i usually dont pray for personal needs. That said i can and do pray for the temporal needs of others and in answering this prayer God does indeed help my temporal needs. Being a farmer i have made peace with what i gets and what i have.
 
Right, because God only cares about the spiritual and does not care one iota about the temporal.

Somehow people are to survive this life in a state of grace without any temporal help.

More like verse 18.

So clearly his actions are contingent on us following his commands. Perfectly. Yes, we get forgiven in confession, but who cares about that when the temporal punishment in Deut 28:18 still happens. Slap slap slap, bad boy, now you can’t have kids. Who cares if you repent and go to confession, you’re still punished.

There appears to be no way to get ALL temporal punishments obliterated. Even indulgences are not working.

So God does not give pleasant things to good people, he only gives it to evil people and then says “SIKE! You’re going to hell!” at judgment day.

This is why we must be perfect, because we will get spanked here. Guaranteed.

We will get the temporal punishments guaranteed, but temporal blessings optional, not needed - at least God thinks they’re not needed.

Yup. God demands for us to do what he does not want to do. Take care of temporal problems, somehow, without him helping us temporally since he has zero obligation or willingness to help in that area. God does not care about the temporal needs of his people.

Somehow we must figure out how to get past this life, while in a state of grace, without any temporal help from above.

Ask for a fish, get a rock. Ask for bread, get a scorpion instead.

In this one area, God and the devil have something in common: Not caring about us. The devil doesn’t care about our temporal needs, and neither does God.

So, how is this loving?
Nothing is uncertain for God.
contingent: dependent for existence, occurrence, character, etc., on something not yet certain (Dictionary.com)

Baptized newborns have no personal sin nor the stain of original sin, and yet experience various sufferings. These are not temporal punishments for sin as the Church teaches that temporal punishment follows from a persons sin.

Catechism
324 The fact that God permits physical and even moral evil is a mystery that God illuminates by his Son Jesus Christ who died and rose to vanquish evil. Faith gives us the certainty that God would not permit an evil if he did not cause a good to come from that very evil, by ways that we shall fully know only in eternal life.

310 But why did God not create a world so perfect that no evil could exist in it? With infinite power God could always create something better.174 But with infinite wisdom and goodness God freely willed to create a world “in a state of journeying” towards its ultimate perfection. In God’s plan this process of becoming involves the appearance of certain beings and the disappearance of others, the existence of the more perfect alongside the less perfect, both constructive and destructive forces of nature. With physical good there exists also physical evil as long as creation has not reached perfection.175

We do ask definitely for those things which are contained in the petitions of the Lord’s Prayer. St. Thomas Aquinas writes in Summa Theologica, Second Part of the Second Part, Question 8 Prayer, Article 6. Whether man ought to ask God for temporal things when he prays?:

On the contrary, It is written (Proverbs 30:8): “Give me only the necessaries of life.”

I answer that, As Augustine says (ad Probam, de orando Deum, Ep. cxxx, 12): “It is lawful to pray for what it is lawful to desire.” Now it is lawful to desire temporal things, not indeed principally, by placing our end therein, but as helps whereby we are assisted in tending towards beatitude, in so far, to wit, as they are the means of supporting the life of the body, and are of service to us as instruments in performing acts of virtue, as also the Philosopher states (Ethic. i, 8). Augustine too says the same to Proba (ad Probam, de orando Deum, Ep. cxxx, 6,7) when he states that “it is not unbecoming for anyone to desire enough for a livelihood, and no more; for this sufficiency is desired, not for its own sake, but for the welfare of the body, or that we should desire to be clothed in a way befitting one’s station, so as not to be out of keeping with those among whom we have to live. Accordingly we ought to pray that we may keep these things if we have them, and if we have them not, that we may gain possession of them.”
 
So by Bob`s standard i must be a very very evil scumbag.
No. By Vico’s standard in Haydock’s commentary. Not my standard.

I think we as laypeople should be allowed to have money. But Christ disagrees with that notion, look how he treated the rich young ruler. He can’t follow him if he has money.
 
Nothing is uncertain for God.
True.

He has all power, no responsibility.
Baptized newborns have no personal sin nor the stain of original sin, and yet experience various sufferings.
Correct, they are held temporally responsible for the sins of their ancestors.
These are not temporal punishments for sin as the Church teaches that temporal punishment follows from a persons sin.
Correct.

The ancestor’s sins. We are held temporally responsible for them.
We do ask definitely for those things which are contained in the petitions of the Lord’s Prayer. St. Thomas Aquinas writes in Summa Theologica, Second Part of the Second Part, Question 8 Prayer, Article 6. Whether man ought to ask God for temporal things when he prays?:
But God is limited by his will and will provide only what is in his will. Everything else outside of his will is evil and has no means of being obtained from God.
 
True.

He has all power, no responsibility.

Correct, they are held temporally responsible for the sins of their ancestors.

Correct.

The ancestor’s sins. We are held temporally responsible for them.

But God is limited by his will and will provide only what is in his will. Everything else outside of his will is evil and has no means of being obtained from God.
There is no meaning such as that you are using in the Oxford Dictionary for responsible. The Church defines temporal punishment differently that you are.

God is not the primary cause for sin and death of mankind, rather Adam and Eve’s choice to sin is, which lead to death and sin. God is the primary cause of creation however.

Oxford Dictionary
responsible, adjective
1 [predicative] Having an obligation to do something, or having control over or care for someone, as part of one’s job or role.
‘the cabinet minister responsible for Education’

1.1(responsible to) Having to report to (a superior) and be answerable to them for one’s actions.
‘the Prime Minister and cabinet are responsible to Parliament’

2 Being the primary cause of something and so able to be blamed or credited for it.
‘Gooch was responsible for 198 of his side’s 542 runs’

2.1 Morally accountable for one’s behaviour.
‘the progressive emergence of the child as a responsible being’

3 (of a job or position) involving important duties, independent decision-making, or control over others.
‘she had risen rapidly to a high and responsible position in the civil service’

3.1 Capable of being trusted.
‘a responsible adult’
 
No. By Vico’s standard in Haydock’s commentary. Not my standard.

I think we as laypeople should be allowed to have money. But Christ disagrees with that notion, look how he treated the rich young ruler. He can’t follow him if he has money.
You Bob are the one saying that being blessed financially is evil you wrote it not Vico.
You wrote to the effect that being financially stable is evil because you are not.
No where does Christ say that having money is evil. And if the young man truly loved Christ and desired to follow Him with all his heart the riches would have been sold.But he went away sad because he knew he loved his riches more than God. The earliest Christians had no problem selling all they had.
 
There is no meaning such as that you are using in the Oxford Dictionary for responsible.
Again and again, I sense you are not reading what I’m writing.

I did not say we are responsible, in any way shape or form, for the sins of our ancestors, not temporally, not spiritually.

I said we are being HELD temporally responsible for the sins of our ancestors. Pay attention to that wording.

That means WE ARE PAYING THE PRICE FOR THEIR MISTAKES.

We are temporally punished for the sins of our ancestors.

If we are not being held temporally responsible for the sins of our ancestors, please tell me when is the next flight to the Garden of Eden?
God is not the primary cause for sin and death of mankind,
I never said this.
rather Adam and Eve’s choice to sin is, which lead to death and sin. God is the primary cause of creation however.
And God is the primary cause of Adam and Eve’s imperfections, which caused them to fall - the question was not if, but when.

God the Great Programmer, wrote buggy code, and then it crashes. So his solution is throw the computer out of the garden.
2 Being the primary cause of something and so able to be blamed or credited for it.
‘Gooch was responsible for 198 of his side’s 542 runs’
And this is where God is responsible for making people imperfect.
3.1 Capable of being trusted.
‘a responsible adult’[/INDENT]
And isn’t this God?

Interesting.

Does God have ANY responsibility for what he did? If not, God has all the power and has no responsibility. We puny mortals have all the responsibility but none of the power.
 
Again and again, I sense you are not reading what I’m writing.

I did not say we are responsible, in any way shape or form, for the sins of our ancestors, not temporally, not spiritually.

I said we are being HELD temporally responsible for the sins of our ancestors. Pay attention to that wording.

That means WE ARE PAYING THE PRICE FOR THEIR MISTAKES.

We are temporally punished for the sins of our ancestors.

If we are not being held temporally responsible for the sins of our ancestors, please tell me when is the next flight to the Garden of Eden?

I never said this.

And God is the primary cause of Adam and Eve’s imperfections, which caused them to fall - the question was not if, but when.

God the Great Programmer, wrote buggy code, and then it crashes. So his solution is throw the computer out of the garden.

And this is where God is responsible for making people imperfect.

And isn’t this God?

Interesting.

Does God have ANY responsibility for what he did? If not, God has all the power and has no responsibility. We puny mortals have all the responsibility but none of the power.
I certainly do understand what you are posting. See post #393 where I wrote: “One that is not responsible is not held to be responsible.” Posted before Catechism 404 … “original sin is called “sin” only in an analogical sense: it is a sin “contracted” and not “committed” - a state and not an act.” We are born in a certain state that God knew we would be born into. God never gave the descendants of Adam and Eve the preternatural gifts that Adam and Eve were given. God knew mankind would not be in the Garden of Eden which was created for Adam and Eve.

God is not the primary cause of Adam and Eve’s imperfections because free will is not an imperfection, and also God gave gifts sufficient that Adam and Eve could remain free from mortal sin. God does not sin so does not cause sin. God’s knowledge of their Fall before it occurred in no way caused it.

It is precisely because Adam and Eve choose to get power like God has, against the command, that they sinned.

I have showed you the various Catechism items and dogmas which conflict with your statements.
 
I certainly do understand what you are posting. See post #393 where I wrote: “One that is not responsible is not held to be responsible.”
I totally agree. I wish God would understand that.
God never gave the descendants of Adam and Eve the preternatural gifts that Adam and Eve were given.
And he denied those gifts to us because it is part of the temporal punishment for the sins of our ancestors. Another proof we are held temporally responsible for the sins of our ancestors.
God knew mankind would not be in the Garden of Eden which was created for Adam and Eve.
If God expected their kids to be not in the garden, why did he give the command “be fruitful and multiply” IN the the garden? Sort of an impossible command to do that in the garden based on the circumstances. Instead of this being a blessing, it becomes a responsibility. I maintain it was God’s original plan that mankind was to be in the Garden, and that he adjusted his plan to delay that due to the fall. Remember, God’s plan is that all be saved - that means heaven - better than the Garden of Eden.
God is not the primary cause of Adam and Eve’s imperfections
God did not create Adam and Eve perfect. He created them imperfect. So God is the primary cause of Adam and Eve’s imperfections.

So if they were naive, where did that that naivete come from? God created them that way.
If they were prideful, that bug in the software came from which great programmer?
If they were stupid, that bug in the software came from which great programmer?
because free will is not an imperfection,
Free will is not an imperfection. But if one is imperfect, that reduces or eliminates free will.

I maintain that if they were created naive, that imperfection made them believe the snake’s lies. In fact, they’d believe anything anyone told them. Where’s the free will there?

Same thing if they were created stupid. Stupid people make stupid mistakes, that’s a given. Clearly they did that.

Same thing if they were created prideful. Hey, look, that imperfection made them question God and do whatever they darn well pleased.

Same thing if they were created fearful. One theory is that the serpent was 50 feet tall and very scary and intimidating. The first bully bullied our ancestors into submission. Where’s the free will there?

Free will does not exist in the imperfect beings. Imperfections cause people to fall.
The question is not if they’ll fall, but when. Imperfections mean failure is only a matter of time, guaranteed.
It is precisely because Adam and Eve choose to get power like God has, against the command, that they sinned.
Precisely. They were naive, stupid, prideful or fearful. Or some combination of those. The fall was only a matter of time because they were imperfect.
 
I totally agree. I wish God would understand that.

And he denied those gifts to us because it is part of the temporal punishment for the sins of our ancestors. Another proof we are held temporally responsible for the sins of our ancestors.

If God expected their kids to be not in the garden, why did he give the command “be fruitful and multiply” IN the the garden? Sort of an impossible command to do that in the garden based on the circumstances. Instead of this being a blessing, it becomes a responsibility. I maintain it was God’s original plan that mankind was to be in the Garden, and that he adjusted his plan to delay that due to the fall. Remember, God’s plan is that all be saved - that means heaven - better than the Garden of Eden.

God did not create Adam and Eve perfect. He created them imperfect. So God is the primary cause of Adam and Eve’s imperfections.

So if they were naive, where did that that naivete come from? God created them that way.
If they were prideful, that bug in the software came from which great programmer?
If they were stupid, that bug in the software came from which great programmer?

Free will is not an imperfection. But if one is imperfect, that reduces or eliminates free will.

I maintain that if they were created naive, that imperfection made them believe the snake’s lies. In fact, they’d believe anything anyone told them. Where’s the free will there?

Same thing if they were created stupid. Stupid people make stupid mistakes, that’s a given. Clearly they did that.

Same thing if they were created prideful. Hey, look, that imperfection made them question God and do whatever they darn well pleased.

Same thing if they were created fearful. One theory is that the serpent was 50 feet tall and very scary and intimidating. The first bully bullied our ancestors into submission. Where’s the free will there?

Free will does not exist in the imperfect beings. Imperfections cause people to fall.
The question is not if they’ll fall, but when. Imperfections mean failure is only a matter of time, guaranteed.

Precisely. They were naive, stupid, prideful or fearful. Or some combination of those. The fall was only a matter of time because they were imperfect.
The reason that some of your ideas contradict the teaching of the Church is that:
  1. God is just.
  2. God is omniscient.
  3. God gave Adam and Eve the power to remain without mortal sin through gifts including freedom from concupiscence and sanctifying grace.
  4. Gifts given to Adam and Eve are not owed to their descendants.
The two kinds of gifts that Adam and Eve were given were preternatural and supernatural. The supernatural grace is also given to the descendants through baptism. The preternatural gifts are not given to descendants. The punishment for mortal sin is twofold, eternal punishment and temporal punishment, but we are not punished for others sins.

Try reading St. Thomas Aquinas on the issue where he describes the kinds of punishments:

  1. *]voluntary satisfactory punishment
    *]personal penal punishment inflicted on account of sin (temporal punishment due to sins *)
    *]medicinal punishment by God or man on those whom they own, so to speak.
    *]spiritual punishments for one’s own fault
    • one can apply indulgences to this.
    Summa Theologica, Question 87. The debt of punishment, First Part of the Second Part, Article 8. Whether anyone is punished for another’s sin?
    I answer that, If we speak of that satisfactory punishment, which one takes upon oneself voluntarily, one may bear another’s punishment, in so far as they are, in some way, one, as stated above (Article 7). If, however, we speak of punishment inflicted on account of sin, inasmuch as it is penal, then each one is punished for his own sin only, because the sinful act is something personal. But if we speak of a punishment that is medicinal, in this way it does happen that one is punished for another’s sin. For it has been stated (Article 7) that ills sustained in bodily goods or even in the body itself, are medicinal punishments intended for the health of the soul. Wherefore there is no reason why one should not have such like punishments inflicted on one for another’s sin, either by God or by man; e.g. on children for their parents, or on servants for their masters, inasmuch as they are their property so to speak; in such a way, however, that, if the children or the servants take part in the sin, this penal ill has the character of punishment in regard to both the one punished and the one he is punished for. But if they do not take part in the sin, it has the character of punishment in regard to the one for whom the punishment is borne, while, in regard to the one who is punished, it is merely medicinal (except accidentally, if he consent to the other’s sin), since it is intended for the good of his soul, if he bears it patiently.

    With regard to spiritual punishments, these are not merely medicinal, because the good of the soul is not directed to a yet higher good. Consequently no one suffers loss in the goods of the soul without some fault of his own. Wherefore Augustine says (Ep. ad Avit.) [Ep. ad Auxilium, ccl.], such like punishments are not inflicted on one for another’s sin, because, as regards the soul, the son is not the father’s property. Hence the Lord assigns the reason for this by saying (Ezekiel 18:4): “All souls are Mine.”

    newadvent.org/summa/2087.htm
 
The reason that some of your ideas contradict the teaching of the Church is that:
  1. God is just.
If God is just, why are we held temporally responsible for the sins of our ancestors?
Why does God exempt some people from the cross while every one else can’t?
  1. God gave Adam and Eve the power to remain without mortal sin through gifts including freedom from concupiscence and sanctifying grace.
However, God created them imperfect. Those imperfections were so large, that the buggy software crashed.

God, the Great Programmer, wrote buggy code. Then threw a computer out of the garden when the system crashed, since it crashed which was inevitable because of the imperfections.
  1. Gifts given to Adam and Eve are not owed to their descendants.
So good things cannot be passed down but only evil things can be passed down. What a double standard.

God refuses to give the same gifts to their descendants, but is willing to punish those descendants temporally for the sins of their ancestors.
The two kinds of gifts that Adam and Eve were given were preternatural and supernatural.
But they were not perfect. Thus supernatural gift was not given.
then each one is punished for his own sin only
OK, let’s test this.

When is the next flight to the Garden of Eden?

There is none.

Therefore, we are punished temporally for the sins of our ancestors.
With regard to spiritual punishments,
I’m not talking about spiritual punishments. Christ and his Church took care of those.

I’m talking about temporal punishments.
 
If God is just, why are we held temporally responsible for the sins of our ancestors?
Why does God exempt some people from the cross while every one else can’t?

However, God created them imperfect. Those imperfections were so large, that the buggy software crashed.
God, the Great Programmer, wrote buggy code. Then threw a computer out of the garden when the system crashed, since it crashed which was inevitable because of the imperfections.
So good things cannot be passed down but only evil things can be passed down. What a double standard.
God refuses to give the same gifts to their descendants, but is willing to punish those descendants temporally for the sins of their ancestors.

But they were not perfect. Thus supernatural gift was not given.
OK, let’s test this.
When is the next flight to the Garden of Eden?
There is none.
Therefore, we are punished temporally for the sins of our ancestors.

I’m not talking about spiritual punishments. Christ and his Church took care of those.
I’m talking about temporal punishments.
  1. Only God is infinitely perfect, as mentioned early along in this thread.
  2. We know that God is just because it is a dogma of faith from Vatican I that God is infinitely just:
Denzinger 1782 [The one, living, and true God and His distinction from all things.] * The holy, Catholic, Apostolic, Roman Church believes and confesses that there is one, true, living God, Creator and Lord of heaven and earth, omnipotent, eternal, immense, incomprehensible, infinite in intellect and will, and in every perfection; who, although He is one, singular, altogether simple and unchangeable spiritual substance, must be proclaimed distinct in reality and essence from the world; most blessed in Himself and of Himself, and ineffably most high above all things which are or can be conceived outside Himself [can. 1-4].
  1. It is a dogma of faith from the Council of Trent, that supernatural gift of grace was given to Adam and Eve.
Denzinger 788 I. If anyone does not confess that the first man Adam, when he had transgressed the commandment of God in Paradise, immediately lost his holiness and the justice in which he had been established, and that he incurred through the offense of that prevarication the wrath and indignation of God and hence the death with which God had previously threatened him, and with death captivity under his power, who thenceforth “had the empire of death” [Heb. 2:14], that is of the devil, and that through that offense of prevarication the entire Adam was transformed in body and soul for the worse [see n. 174], let him be anathema.
  1. As mentioned in the last post St. Thomas Aquinas on the issue where he describes the kinds of punishments. That death is certainly spiritual for it resulted in the loss of sanctifying grace, and also we do not have that supernatural gift of sanctifying grace that Adam and Even had at our birth.
Council of Trent dogma of faith:

Denzinger 789 2. If anyone asserts that the transgression of Adam has harmed him alone and not his posterity, and that the sanctity and justice, received from God, which he lost, he has lost for himself alone and not for us also; or that he having been defiled by the sin of disobedience has transfused only death “and the punishments of the body into the whole human race, but not sin also, which is the death of the soul,” let him be anathema, since he contradicts the Apostle who says: “By one man sin entered into the world, and by sin death, and so death passed upon all men, in whom all have sinned” [Rom. 5:12; see n. 175].

From Summa Theologica:
  • voluntary satisfactory punishment
  • personal penal punishment inflicted on account of sin (temporal punishment due to sins *)
  • medicinal punishment by God or man on those whom they own, so to speak.
  • spiritual punishments for one’s own fault
  • one can apply indulgences to this.
The Council of Trent states: “Through the merits of Christ satisfaction is rendered to God for the temporal punishment due to forgiven sins by the patient bearing of punishments imposed by God, as well as by voluntarily undertaken penitential works, such as fasting, prayers, almsgiving and other works of piety.” (Denzinger 923)
 
The reason that some of your ideas contradict the teaching of the Church is that:
  1. God is just.
  2. God is omniscient.
  3. **God gave Adam and Eve the power to remain without mortal sin through gifts including freedom from concupiscence and sanctifying grace.**4. Gifts given to Adam and Eve are not owed to their descendants.
The two kinds of gifts that Adam and Eve were given were preternatural and supernatural.
Any choice is result of three things. 1. Circumstance 2. Desire (or state of being) and 3. Knowledge

Adam & Eve had a desire to be like God, had limited knowledge of the consequences (lacked comprehension of good and evil), and were placed in a circumstance where they were deceived. Given this it seems they would not make any other choice than the one they did.

Consider a scenario where Adam disobeys, and God immediately freezes everything, rewinds the tape and starts over. Essentially giving Adam another chance. Without changing any of the three items above, under what mechanism do they choose differently?

Molinism recognizes this problem and tries to get around it by saying God account’s for Man’s free choice and then actualizes one world out of many potential ones. Essentially placing us in circumstances where God knows how we will freely choose. I’m not convinced by that argument for a number of reasons I won’t get into here. To me there seems to be a logical problem that isn’t resolved by saying they have grace, because you still need to account for how grace is accepted or rejected.
 
Any choice is result of three things. 1. Circumstance 2. Desire (or state of being) and 3. Knowledge

Adam & Eve had a desire to be like God, had limited knowledge of the consequences (lacked comprehension of good and evil), and were placed in a circumstance where they were deceived. Given this it seems they would not make any other choice than the one they did.

Consider a scenario where Adam disobeys, and God immediately freezes everything, rewinds the tape and starts over. Essentially giving Adam another chance. Without changing any of the three items above, under what mechanism do they choose differently?

Molinism recognizes this problem and tries to get around it by saying God account’s for Man’s free choice and then actualizes one world out of many potential ones. Essentially placing us in circumstances where God knows how we will freely choose. I’m not convinced by that argument for a number of reasons I won’t get into here. To me there seems to be a logical problem that isn’t resolved by saying they have grace, because you still need to account for how grace is accepted or rejected.
Sure I have read those opinions in the newadvent articles (Catholic Encyclopedia). What I posted is not a discussion of proposed theories but only from the dogmas of faith.

Would not is different than could no, and is very significant.
 
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