Is our free choice real

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That promise is for those who remain in heaven. I’m not going to interpret that as hell no longer existing (since the opposite of that verse happens in hell).

Then how did those angels fall? No culpability, and thus they’re in hell.
If you insist that there is no culpability for sin then you also say there is no justice. Justice is clearly the teaching of the Church. There is certainly justice for mankind and the angels.

Catechism

391 The Church teaches that Satan was at first a good angel, made by God: “The devil and the other demons were indeed created naturally good by God, but they became evil by their own doing.” …

397 Man, tempted by the devil, let his trust in his Creator die in his heart and, abusing his freedom, disobeyed God’s command. This is what man’s first sin consisted of.278 All subsequent sin would be disobedience toward God and lack of trust in his goodness.
 
Of course we have free will, otherwise that would mean God is controlling everything directly which would make Him the author of sin, which is impossible.
 
If you insist that there is no culpability for sin
I never said that, don’t put words in my mouth.
391 The Church teaches that Satan was at first a good angel, made by God: “The devil and the other demons were indeed created naturally good by God, but they became evil by their own doing.” …
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And how did that happen? Seriously. This teaching that an angel can fall after having a personal relationship with God in heaven (where time does not exist, this is an eternal thing!) - this is scary! Why would we be exempt and they not?

What was the difference between the good angels and the fallen ones, in terms of how they were created? I think the fallen angels had the imperfection of stupidity or pride.
Of course we have free will, otherwise that would mean God is controlling everything directly which would make Him the author of sin, which is impossible.
Not necessarily.

God created man imperfect. Man falls because of his imperfection, through his own choices and gets the blame and responsibility. The weak speck of dust has all responsibility and no power.

God wrote the buggy software and the software crashed.

God is not responsible because He is not responsible for anything, and he has all the power.
 
I never said that, don’t put words in my mouth.
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And how did that happen? Seriously. This teaching that an angel can fall after having a personal relationship with God in heaven (where time does not exist, this is an eternal thing!) - this is scary! Why would we be exempt and they not?

What was the difference between the good angels and the fallen ones, in terms of how they were created? I think the fallen angels had the imperfection of stupidity or pride.

You said “no cuplability” and that is what I responded to.

BobCatholic: “Then how did those angels fall? No culpability, and thus they’re in hell.”

Yes they were culpable. “The angels were not created in heaven, that is, with the vision of God. If they had had that, sin would have been impossible.” – Fr. William G. Most
 
Yes they were culpable. “The angels were not created in heaven, that is, with the vision of God. If they had had that, sin would have been impossible.” – Fr. William G. Most
So what’s the difference between the good and fallen angels? I can guess which group was created imperfect.
 
So what’s the difference between the good and fallen angels? I can guess which group was created imperfect.
What is most important is that angels and mankind were created will free will and that by their nature alone, they could not remain without sin. Due to gifts from God, angels and humans can remain without sin. God is necessary for our perfection, neither angels nor humans are created perfect to start.

Catechism

293 … The First Vatican Council explains:

This one, true God, of his own goodness and “almighty power”, not for increasing his own beatitude, nor for attaining his perfection, but in order to manifest this perfection through the benefits which he bestows on creatures, with absolute freedom of counsel “and from the beginning of time, made out of nothing both orders of creatures, the spiritual and the corporeal. . .”

302 Creation has its own goodness and proper perfection, but it did not spring forth complete from the hands of the Creator. The universe was created “in a state of journeying” (in statu viae) toward an ultimate perfection yet to be attained, to which God has destined it. We call “divine providence” the dispositions by which God guides his creation toward this perfection:

By his providence God protects and governs all things which he has made, “reaching mightily from one end of the earth to the other, and ordering all things well”. For “all are open and laid bare to his eyes”, even those things which are yet to come into existence through the free action of creatures.161​
 
What is most important is that angels and mankind were created will free will and that by their nature alone, they could not remain without sin.
Precisely. When angels are created imperfect, it is only a matter of time before they fall. Buggy software will crash, that’s the nature of imperfections.
Due to gifts from God, angels and humans can remain without sin. God is necessary for our perfection, neither angels nor humans are created perfect to start
So when God created humans (and angels) imperfect and they fall, their free will is reduced or eliminated. The concept of free will is a cruel joke at best, and nonexistent at worst.
 
Precisely. When angels are created imperfect, it is only a matter of time before they fall. Buggy software will crash, that’s the nature of imperfections.

So when God created humans (and angels) imperfect and they fall, their free will is reduced or eliminated. The concept of free will is a cruel joke at best, and nonexistent at worst.
Once a person has received sanctifying grace it is possible to remain without mortal sin, because God make that possible. Recall efficacious and sufficient grace? Without sanctifying grace it would eventually occur.

No, because it is not called fall without mortal sin. This is because without free will there is no responsibility for mortal sin, and without mortal sin there is no hell for a person that has been baptized. Angels only have one decision to make, but for humans there is the entire time from birth to death to repent.

Catechism

1857 For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: "Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent."131

1859 Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent. It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God’s law. It also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice. Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart133 do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin.
 
Once a person has received sanctifying grace it is possible to remain without mortal sin, because God make that possible. Recall efficacious and sufficient grace? Without sanctifying grace it would eventually occur.
Angels were covered in this yet they still fell. Imperfections overrode the grace.
No, because it is not called fall without mortal sin. This is because without free will there is no responsibility for mortal sin, and without mortal sin there is no hell for a person that has been baptized. Angels only have one decision to make, but for humans there is the entire time from birth to death to repent.
But I question whether we even have free will if we are imperfect. Imperfections cause free will to be a cruel joke at best and nonexistent at worst.

Imperfections are like buggy software. The question is not IF one will fall, it is when.

God does fix imperfections using grace, but when God chooses not to,how does one have free will then?
 
Angels were covered in this yet they still fell. Imperfections overrode the grace.

But I question whether we even have free will if we are imperfect. Imperfections cause free will to be a cruel joke at best and nonexistent at worst.

Imperfections are like buggy software. The question is not IF one will fall, it is when.

God does fix imperfections using grace, but when God chooses not to,how does one have free will then?
Angels and mankind use their free will always choosing the apparent good.

During the trial, neither angels nor mankind apprehend God completely, only partially. That God partially hides Himself does not imply either that the beholder is imperfect or is without God’s friendship, i.e. w/o sanctifying grace.

When we do behold God “face to face” we no longer confuse the real good with apparent goods. We will still use our free will to choose the good but the apparent and real good will then be identical to our minds. We will always choose the Good.

During the trial, faith augments our reason and senses moving us to choose the real good. Those absent faith will fall from time to time and choose the apparent good that is not the real good. The denial of God through a lack of faith is an act of one’s free will; not an imperfection that robs one of free will.
 
Angels were covered in this yet they still fell. Imperfections overrode the grace.

But I question whether we even have free will if we are imperfect. Imperfections cause free will to be a cruel joke at best and nonexistent at worst.

Imperfections are like buggy software. The question is not IF one will fall, it is when.

God does fix imperfections using grace, but when God chooses not to,how does one have free will then?
It is incorrect that: “The question is not IF one will fall, it is when.” The Church dogma on this is given at the Council of Trent:

814 Can. 4. If anyone shall say that man’s free will moved and aroused by God does not cooperate by assenting to God who rouses and calls, whereby it disposes and prepares itself to obtain the grace of justification, and that it cannot dissent, if it wishes, but that like something inanimate it does nothing at all and is merely in a passive state: let him be anathema [cf. n. 797].

815 Can. 5. If anyone shall say that after the sin of Adam man’s free will was lost and destroyed, or that it is a thing in name only, indeed a title without a reality, a fiction, moreover, brought into the Church by Satan: let him be anathema [cf. n. 793, 797].

Contrary beliefs on lack of free will were condemned in the following:
  • Martin Luther (died 1546)
  • Michael Baius (died 1589)
  • Cornelius Jansenius (died 1638)
  • Paschasius Quesnel (died 1719)
 
Angels were covered in this yet they still fell. Imperfections overrode the grace.

But I question whether we even have free will if we are imperfect. Imperfections cause free will to be a cruel joke at best and nonexistent at worst.

Imperfections are like buggy software. The question is not IF one will fall, it is when.

God does fix imperfections using grace, but when God chooses not to,how does one have free will then?
The second part that I did not put in the first post, on grace is from The Second Council of Orange and the Council of Trent.

God gives all the*** just*** sufficent grace (gratia proxime vel remote sufficiens) for the observation of the Divine Commandments. (De fide.)

Council of Trent (Denzinger)828 Can. 18. If anyone shall say that the commandments of God are even for a man who is justified and confirmed in grace impossible to observe: let him be anathema [cf. n. 804].

Chap. II. The Observance of the Commandments, and the Necessity and Possibility thereof

804 But no one, however much justified, should consider himself exempt from the observance of the commandments [can. 20]; no one should make use of that rash statement forbidden under an anathema by the Fathers, that the commandments of God are impossible to observe for a man who is justified [can. 18 and 22: cf. n. 200]. “For God does not command impossibilities, but by commanding admonishes you both to do what you can do, and to pray for what you cannot do, and assists you that you may be able”; * “whose commandments are not heavy” [1 John 5:3], “whose yoke is sweet and whose burden is light” [Matt. 11:30]. For they who are the sons of God, love Christ: “but they who love him, (as He Himself testifies) keep his words” [John 14:23], which indeed with the divine help they can do. For although in this mortal life men however holy and just fall at times into at least light and daily sins, which are also called venial [can. 23], they do not for that reason cease to be just. For that word of the just, “Forgive us our trespasses” [Matt. 6:12; cf. n.107], is both humble and true. Thus it follows that the just ought to feel themselves more bound to walk in the way of justice, in that having been now “freed from sin and made servants of God” [Rom. 6:22], “living soberly and justly and piously” [Tit. 2:12], they can proceed onwards through Christ Jesus, through whom they “have access unto this grace” [Rom. 5:2]. For God “does not forsake those who have once been justified by His grace, unless He be first forsaken by them.” * And so no one should flatter himself because of faith alone [can. 9, 19, 20], thinking that by faith alone he is made an heir and will obtain the inheritance, even though he suffer not with Christ “that he may be also glorified” [Rom. 8:17]. For even Christ Himself (as the Apostle says), “whereas he was the Son of God, he learned obedience by the things which he suffered and being made perfect he was made to all who obey him the cause of eternal salvation” [Heb. 5:8 ff.] For this reason the Apostle himself admonishes those justified saying: “Know you not, that they who run in the race, all run indeed, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that you may obtain. I therefore so run, not as at an uncertainty, I so fight, not as one beating the air, but I chastise my body and bring it under subjection, lest perhaps when I have preached to others, I myself should become a castaway” [1 Cor. 9:24ff.]. So also the chief of the Apostles, Peter: “Labor the more, that by good works you may make sure your calling and election; for doing these things, you shall not sin at any time” [2 Pet. 1:10]. Thence it is clear that they are opposed to the teaching of orthodox religion who say that the just man sins at least venially in every good work [can. 25], or (what is more intolerable) that he merits eternal punishments; and that they also who declare that the just sin in all works, if in those works, in order to stimulate their own sloth and to encourage themselves to run in the race, with this (in view), that above all God may be glorified, they have in view also the eternal reward [can. 26, 31], since it is written: “I have inclined my heart to do thy justifications on account of the reward” [Ps. 118:112], and of Moses the Apostle says, that he “looked to the reward” [Heb. 11:26].
 
Angels and mankind use their free will always choosing the apparent good.
Apparent is the key word.

If someone has imperfections, “apparent good” could mean anything that is evil as evidenced by the complete blithering stupidity of Adam and Eve.
During the trial, neither angels nor mankind apprehend God completely, only partially. That God partially hides Himself does not imply either that the beholder is imperfect or is without God’s friendship, i.e. w/o sanctifying grace.
Having a lack of information is an imperfection. When one has a lack of information, it interferes with free will.

Oops, you didn’t know that road was under construction while on driving out of state, and got into a huge traffic jam. So you had no choice but to be late to your destination.
The denial of God through a lack of faith is an act of one’s free will; not an imperfection that robs one of free will.
An imperfection causes people to be more likely to sin. The question is not if, but when.
 
Apparent is the key word.

If someone has imperfections, “apparent good” could mean anything that is evil as evidenced by the complete blithering stupidity of Adam and Eve.

Having a lack of information is an imperfection. When one has a lack of information, it interferes with free will.

Oops, you didn’t know that road was under construction while on driving out of state, and got into a huge traffic jam. So you had no choice but to be late to your destination.

An imperfection causes people to be more likely to sin. The question is not if, but when.
Because God gave Adam and Eve gifts of supernatural sanctifying grace, and preternatural gifts of integrity (freedom from concupiscence), infused knowledge, and bodily immortality, they were able to remain free from sin. They willfully chose to sin. They were not perfect because only God is absolutely perfect, and also because they did not have the Beatific Vision. At the Catholic Church teaches, dogma of faith, God gives all the just sufficent grace (gratia proxime vel remote sufficiens) for the observation of the Divine Commandments. (De fide.) One in that condition never has to fall.
 
snip…

Having a lack of information is an imperfection. When one has a lack of information, it interferes with free will.

Oops, you didn’t know that road was under construction while on driving out of state, and got into a huge traffic jam. So you had no choice but to be late to your destination.

An imperfection causes people to be more likely to sin. The question is not if, but when.
No it does not because one is still free to seek out information
as for the example one could have freely checked their route ahead of time…And made adjustments accordingly. in our age such info is available. It does seem rather illogical after driving out of state then choosing to be late.

Only if one let’s the imperfection have it’s way.
 
The second part that I did not put in the first post, on grace is from The Second Council of Orange and the Council of Trent.

God gives all the*** just*** sufficent grace (gratia proxime vel remote sufficiens) for the observation of the Divine Commandments. (De fide.)

Council of Trent (Denzinger)
828 Can. 18. If anyone shall say that the commandments of God are even for a man who is justified and confirmed in grace impossible to observe: let him be anathema [cf. n. 804].

So what you’re saying is that God’s grace can overcome imperfections and cure them.

In a way, God’s grace can fix the buggy code.

OK, I’ll buy this, but then there’s the problem of Paul. “Three times I asked the Lord to remove this thorn in my side and he refused saying ‘my grace is enough for you.’”

So, here’s Paul’s imperfection which God refuses to fix, and that’s sufficient grace? Sounds like a withholding of grace.​
 
So what you’re saying is that God’s grace can overcome imperfections and cure them.

In a way, God’s grace can fix the buggy code.

OK, I’ll buy this, but then there’s the problem of Paul. “Three times I asked the Lord to remove this thorn in my side and he refused saying ‘my grace is enough for you.’”

So, here’s Paul’s imperfection which God refuses to fix, and that’s sufficient grace? Sounds like a withholding of grace.
2 Corinthians 12
7 And lest the greatness of the revelations should exalt me, there was given me a sting of my flesh, an angel of Satan, to buffet me.
8 For which thing thrice I besought the Lord, that it might depart from me.

No, the grace is enough: sanctifying grace is sufficient to not sin mortally, but the buffeting will continue. God’s design is that we are in a state of journeying toward an ultimate perfection. Some will attain the Beatific Vision.

Catechism
302 Creation has its own goodness and proper perfection, but it did not spring forth complete from the hands of the Creator. The universe was created “in a state of journeying” (in statu viae) toward an ultimate perfection yet to be attained, to which God has destined it. We call “divine providence” the dispositions by which God guides his creation toward this perfection:

By his providence God protects and governs all things which he has made, “reaching mightily from one end of the earth to the other, and ordering all things well”. For “all are open and laid bare to his eyes”, even those things which are yet to come into existence through the free action of creatures.161

1045 For man, this consummation will be the final realization of the unity of the human race, which God willed from creation and of which the pilgrim Church has been "in the nature of sacrament."636 Those who are united with Christ will form the community of the redeemed, “the holy city” of God, "the Bride, the wife of the Lamb."637 She will not be wounded any longer by sin, stains, self-love, that destroy or wound the earthly community.638 The beatific vision, in which God opens himself in an inexhaustible way to the elect, will be the ever-flowing well-spring of happiness, peace, and mutual communion.​
 
Apparent is the key word.

If someone has imperfections, “apparent good” could mean anything that is evil as evidenced by the complete blithering stupidity of Adam and Eve.

An imperfection causes people to be more likely to sin. The question is not if, but when.
Concupiscence and the negative irascible movements of the soul are imperfections in the human appetites caused by original sin.

We no longer have infused knowledge of the good and often our appetites are stirred by objects improper to that appetite. But we are not slaves to our appetites. Prayer, penance, mortification and God’s grace can re-order our desires to be subject to only their proper objects. With grace, we can subject our appetites to reason, and our will to God’s.

So, for man alone, perfection is impossible. But with God, nothing is impossible.
 
No, the grace is enough: sanctifying grace is sufficient to not sin mortally, but the buffeting will continue. God’s design is that we are in a state of journeying toward an ultimate perfection. Some will attain the Beatific Vision.
If the grace was enough, it would be able to overcome the imperfections. But yet people still remain imperfect and don’t have them taken away, so how are they getting more perfect if imperfections are not healed?
Concupiscence and the negative irascible movements of the soul are imperfections in the human appetites caused by original sin.
Concupiscence is one of the biggest imperfections we have. This imperfection is terrible. This is one of the proofs we are held temporally responsible for the sins of our ancestors.
So, for man alone, perfection is impossible. But with God, nothing is impossible.
And if God doesn’t give the assistance to overcome imperfections, then it truly becomes impossible for man.

In addition by not taking away concupiscence, God makes it warp speed harder to overcome sin.
 
If the grace was enough, it would be able to overcome the imperfections. But yet people still remain imperfect and don’t have them taken away, so how are they getting more perfect if imperfections are not healed?

Concupiscence is one of the biggest imperfections we have. This imperfection is terrible. This is one of the proofs we are held temporally responsible for the sins of our ancestors.

And if God doesn’t give the assistance to overcome imperfections, then it truly becomes impossible for man.

In addition by not taking away concupiscence, God makes it warp speed harder to overcome sin.
Responsibility is taken only for what one does willingly, so we are not responsible for what Adam and Eve did. We are living without the benefit of some of the gifts that only they had, however.

Virtue is increased by using the will to cooperate with the grace of God. This is a lifelong process. What man contributes is to cooperate with faith, hope, and charity that is given with sanctifying grace, with virtuous actions and avoiding evil actions.

Catechism

1993 Justification establishes cooperation between God’s grace and man’s freedom. On man’s part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion, and in the cooperation of charity with the prompting of the Holy Spirit who precedes and preserves his assent:

When God touches man’s heart through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, man himself is not inactive while receiving that inspiration, since he could reject it; and yet, without God’s grace, he cannot by his own free will move himself toward justice in God’s sight.42

1811 It is not easy for man, wounded by sin, to maintain moral balance. Christ’s gift of salvation offers us the grace necessary to persevere in the pursuit of the virtues. Everyone should always ask for this grace of light and strength, frequent the sacraments, cooperate with the Holy Spirit, and follow his calls to love what is good and shun evil.

1784 The education of the conscience is a lifelong task. From the earliest years, it awakens the child to the knowledge and practice of the interior law recognized by conscience. Prudent education teaches virtue; it prevents or cures fear, selfishness and pride, resentment arising from guilt, and feelings of complacency, born of human weakness and faults. The education of the conscience guarantees freedom and engenders peace of heart.
 
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