Is our free choice real

[BobCatholic]

Responsibility is taken only for what one does willingly, so we are not responsible for what Adam and Eve did. We are living without the benefit of some of the gifts that only they had, however.

Correct. We are not responsible for the sins of Adam and Eve,but we are held temporally responsible for their actions.

Virtue is increased by using the will to cooperate with the grace of God. This is a lifelong process. What man contributes is to cooperate with faith, hope, and charity that is given with sanctifying grace, with virtuous actions and avoiding evil actions.

So this is dependent on the will, and not God’s grace. If one doesn’t will it, clearly God’s grace is not in him so game over, elevator down.

The human will is imperfect, and is impacted negatively by imperfections. Unless God’s grace can and will overcome imperfections, a human really doesn’t have a choice to overcome the imperfections.

 

[Vico]

Correct. We are not responsible for the sins of Adam and Eve,but we are held temporally responsible for their actions.

So this is dependent on the will, and not God’s grace. If one doesn’t will it, clearly God’s grace is not in him so game over, elevator down.

The human will is imperfect, and is impacted negatively by imperfections. Unless God’s grace can and will overcome imperfections, a human really doesn’t have a choice to overcome the imperfections.

One is not responsible for acts that one does not freely do, per the teaching of the Church.

Do you accept the teaching of the Church on free will and responsibility and on the consequences of original sin that every person born has inherited Adam’s sin nature and suffers the same consequences of spiritual and physical death?

Catechism
1734 Freedom makes man responsible for his acts to the extent that they are voluntary. …

1736 Every act directly willed is imputable to its author: …

You wrote “So this is dependent on the will, and not God’s grace. If one doesn’t will it, clearly God’s grace is not in him so game over, elevator down.”

No, on free will in cooperation with God’s grace is needed, however God always gives the grace first ((counter to Semi-Pelagianism)) and mankind is not capable of saving oneself (counter to Pelagianism). The contrary ideas are called Pelagianism and Semi-Pelagianism and were condemned by the Church.

Pelagianism: “Pelagius said the human will freely commits good or evil and that grace is needed only to help the will do what it already can do on its own.”

Semi-Pelagianism: “(1) the beginning of faith (though not faith itself or its increase) could be accomplished by the human will alone, unaided by grace; (2) in a loose sense, the sanctifying grace man receives from God can be merited by natural human effort, unaided by actual grace; (3) once a man has been justified, he does not need additional grace from God in order to persevere until the end of life.”

ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/CAPELAGI.htm

 

[BobCatholic]

Do you accept the teaching of the Church on free will and responsibility and on the consequences of original sin that every person born has inherited Adam’s sin nature and suffers the same consequences of spiritual and physical death?

Free will and responsibility: I said that imperfections rob us of free will. Free will is a cruel joke at best or nonexistent at worst, if one is imperfect. Only if one is perfected by God’s grace can one actually have true free will.

Every person born is held temporally responsible for his sin. That’s why we “inherit” his sin nature (an imperfection that reduces free will) and suffer the same consequences of spiritual and physical death.

You wrote “So this is dependent on the will, and not God’s grace. If one doesn’t will it, clearly God’s grace is not in him so game over, elevator down.”

No, on free will in cooperation with God’s grace is needed, however God always gives the grace first ((counter to Semi-Pelagianism)) and mankind is not capable of saving oneself (counter to Pelagianism). The contrary ideas are called Pelagianism and Semi-Pelagianism and were condemned by the Church.

God gives grace first, but if that grace is not the overcoming of imperfections, then one’s free will is reduced or eliminated. I know man can’t save himself by his own works. I am definitely proof of that.

If God does not give the grace of overcoming imperfections, the imperfections are an impediment to getting closer to God and he rejects them. It is a catch-22. Can’t please God so God rejects them. But thanks to the imperfections, one can’t please God. God won’t take away the imperfections so there’s no way to please God.

 

[Vico]

Free will and responsibility: I said that imperfections rob us of free will. Free will is a cruel joke at best or nonexistent at worst, if one is imperfect. Only if one is perfected by God’s grace can one actually have true free will.

Every person born is held temporally responsible for his sin. That’s why we “inherit” his sin nature (an imperfection that reduces free will) and suffer the same consequences of spiritual and physical death.

God gives grace first, but if that grace is not the overcoming of imperfections, then one’s free will is reduced or eliminated. I know man can’t save himself by his own works. I am definitely proof of that.

If God does not give the grace of overcoming imperfections, the imperfections are an impediment to getting closer to God and he rejects them. It is a catch-22. Can’t please God so God rejects them. But thanks to the imperfections, one can’t please God. God won’t take away the imperfections so there’s no way to please God.

There is no culpability for mortal sin without free will, therefore there would never be mortal sin if what you say it true. No, it does not require perfection to not sin mortally, only the will to do so and sanctifying grace. That is clearly contrary to what Jesus Christ taught us.

Matthew 7
13 Enter ye in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and many there are who go in thereat. 14 How narrow is the gate, and strait is the way that leadeth to life: and few there are that find it!

 

[BobCatholic]

There is no culpability for mortal sin without free will, therefore there would never be mortal sin if what you say it true. No, it does not require perfection to not sin mortally, only the will to do so and sanctifying grace. That is clearly contrary to what Jesus Christ taught us.

We are not culpable for Adam and Eve’s sin, yet we are temporally punished for it.

Matthew 7
13 Enter ye in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and many there are who go in thereat. 14 How narrow is the gate, and strait is the way that leadeth to life: and few there are that find it!

And this verse gives more proof that free will is a cruel joke at best or nonexistent at worst.

To go to hell, just exist. It is our default state. As a result, most people are likely to go there.

To go to heaven, one has to endure horrific suffering and not many make it.

As a result, not many make it to heaven as that verse says.

It is ridiculously EASY to go to hell. It is ridiculously HARD to go to heaven.

Where’s free will when the scales are unbalanced like that?

 

[Vico]

We are not culpable for Adam and Eve’s sin, yet we are temporally punished for it.

And this verse gives more proof that free will is a cruel joke at best or nonexistent at worst.

To go to hell, just exist. It is our default state. As a result, most people are likely to go there.

To go to heaven, one has to endure horrific suffering and not many make it.

As a result, not many make it to heaven as that verse says.

It is ridiculously EASY to go to hell. It is ridiculously HARD to go to heaven.

Where’s free will when the scales are unbalanced like that?

There is medicinal punishment because of our inherited nature with concupiscence. We are not responsible for it however.

It is neither a joke nor cruel because God is just and created all in wisdom. This is a dogma of faith.

God makes it possible, but there are difficult trials. One that freely fails need only repent and be absolved. That is the great mercy of God. Free will allows responsibility without which one is not culpable for mortal sin, and only mortal sin, for the baptized, leads to condemnation. For those that freely choose sin, it becomes difficult, to become free of that slavery to the devil.

St. Paul wrote in 1 Cor. 9
24 Know you not that they that run in the race, all run indeed, but one receiveth the prize ? So run that you may obtain. 25 And every one that striveth for the mastery, refraineth himself from all things: and they indeed that they may receive a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible one. 26 I therefore so run, not as at an uncertainty: I so fight, not as one beating the air: 27 But I chastise my body, and bring it into subjection: lest perhaps, when I have preached to others, I myself should become a castaway.

Jesus said (Matthew 11)
28 Come to me, all you that labour, and are burdened, and I will refresh you. 29 Take up my yoke upon you, and learn of me, because I am meek, and humble of heart: and you shall find rest to your souls. 30 For my yoke is sweet and my burden light.

 

[ANV]

Most often not.

 

[tonyrey]

Most often not.

So you agree that sometimes we choose freely and transcend physical causes?

 

[ANV]

So you agree that sometimes we choose freely and transcend physical causes?

Yes sometimes but not often?

 

[o_mlly]

…And if God doesn’t give the assistance to overcome imperfections, then it truly becomes impossible for man. …

Matthew 7:7, Luke 11:9.

 

[tonyrey]

Yes sometimes but not often?

How do explain our power to violate the principle of conservation of energy when we do choose freely?

 

[BobCatholic]

There is medicinal punishment because of our inherited nature with concupiscence. We are not responsible for it however.

How is it medicinal when we cannot overcome the imperfections?

It is neither a joke nor cruel because God is just and created all in wisdom.

I don’t want God to be just. If God were just, all of us would be in hell.

I want God to be loving, that love overrules his justice.

.

One that freely fails need only repent and be absolved. That is the great mercy of God.

God’s mercy apparently is for spiritual things, not the temporal realm. If God chose to be as merciful temporally as he is spiritually, we’d be in the Garden of Eden with only one rule to follow.

However, since it is ridiculously easy to go to hell and horrifically difficult to go to heaven, that is proof positive we don’t have free will.

 

[Vico]

How is it medicinal when we cannot overcome the imperfections?

I don’t want God to be just. If God were just, all of us would be in hell.

I want God to be loving, that love overrules his justice.

God’s mercy apparently is for spiritual things, not the temporal realm. If God chose to be as merciful temporally as he is spiritually, we’d be in the Garden of Eden with only one rule to follow.

However, since it is ridiculously easy to go to hell and horrifically difficult to go to heaven, that is proof positive we don’t have free will.

You say that love overrules justice but this is not true because God’s justice is loving. God forgives those the repent with sorrow, for they are justified.

Correction is medicinal and is loving. It deters us from sin. Luke 23:39-43

39 Now one of the criminals hanging there reviled Jesus, saying, “Are you not the Messiah? Save yourself and us.”
40 The other, however, rebuking him, said in reply, “Have you no fear of God, for you are subject to the same condemnation?
41 And indeed, we have been condemned justly, for the sentence we received corresponds to our crimes, but this man has done nothing criminal.”
42 Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.”
43 He replied to him, “Amen, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

Only God is absolutely perfect. We journey towards perfection which is gradual for we must become free of all attachment to sin. This is achieved over time with with the grace of God without which there is no merit. This also requires our cooperation.

You say there is no free will but then also say that if God were just we would all be in hell. One cannot be condemned without free will, so it is illogical to say we would all be in hell.

The Catholic Church teaches dogmas of faith contrary to what you are saying. I feel that I am required to point this out for you and anyone reading this.

 

[BobCatholic]

You say that love overrules justice but this is not true because God’s justice is loving. God forgives those the repent with sorrow, for they are justified.

Correction is medicinal and is loving. It deters us from sin. Luke 23:39-43

But if there is no way to overcome imperfections, there is no way to overcome sin. How is that medicinal? Keep spanking the kid who can’t stop doing [insert bad thing here] because he has a mental disease? But we are held temporally responsible for the sins of Adam and Eve, regardless of our guilt, or culpability.

You say there is no free will but then also say that if God were just we would all be in hell. One cannot be condemned without free will, so it is illogical to say we would all be in hell.

I said that free will is reduced to a cruel joke at best or is nonexistent at worst, due to imperfections. I never said “no free will” - I’m open to a range, what I’m saying is that imperfections rob us of real free will.

If God were just, Adam and Eve’s children (and us) would be in the Garden of Eden. So clearly, we are not there. He would not punish the children for the sin of the parents.

Remember, God is just and before Christ’s sacrifice, the gates of heaven were closed - to all - just and damned alike. They went to hell (the same hell in the Apostle’s creed) after death. So when I said ‘if God were just, we’d be in hell’ this is what I meant. The “hell” that is the realm of the dead, Sheol.

Love CAN overrule justice. Otherwise, mercy could not happen.

 

[Vico]

But if there is no way to overcome imperfections, there is no way to overcome sin. How is that medicinal? Keep spanking the kid who can’t stop doing [insert bad thing here] because he has a mental disease? But we are held temporally responsible for the sins of Adam and Eve, regardless of our guilt, or culpability.

I said that free will is reduced to a cruel joke at best or is nonexistent at worst, due to imperfections. I never said “no free will” - I’m open to a range, what I’m saying is that imperfections rob us of real free will.

If God were just, Adam and Eve’s children (and us) would be in the Garden of Eden. So clearly, we are not there. He would not punish the children for the sin of the parents.

Remember, God is just and before Christ’s sacrifice, the gates of heaven were closed - to all - just and damned alike. They went to hell (the same hell in the Apostle’s creed) after death. So when I said ‘if God were just, we’d be in hell’ this is what I meant. The “hell” that is the realm of the dead, Sheol.

Love CAN overrule justice. Otherwise, mercy could not happen.

It is a dogma of faith that God is absolutely perfect, that means both justice and mercy. Those are always present together. It is a teaching of the Catholic Church (see Ludwig Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, p. 102) that

• The Supernatural perfects Nature. (Sent. communis.)

Also p. 106

The state of pure nature (status naturae purae), that is, a condition in which man would possess all that, and only that, which appertains to human nature, and in which he could attain to a natural final end only.

The possibility of a pure state of nature, which was denied by Luther, Baius and Jansenius, is certain Church doctrine. It springs as a necessary consequence from the doctrine of the supernatural character of the gifts of the primitive state.

Taking the forgoing in hand, we are not held temporally responsible for the sins of Adam and Eve, but we experience the human nature because they choose not to transmit it to us through the original sin.

One can call God a cruel joker but is is not true. It there was an imperfection that caused loss of free will, then there is no mortal sin culpability. Mortal sin requires a free act of will. As a result there is no eternal punishment for that error, nor is the temporal punishment for it, but there may still exist medicinal punishment. We are not isolated and what we do has an effect on others – we are examples to others – so a true medicine is also a deterrent to others that are scandalized.

Our Lord Jesus Christ is always just, exhibiting the moral virtue of justice, and will come to judge the living and the dead.[/INDENT]

Catechism

1807 Justice is the moral virtue that consists in the constant and firm will to give their due to God and neighbor. Justice toward God is called the “virtue of religion.” Justice toward men disposes one to respect the rights of each and to establish in human relationships the harmony that promotes equity with regard to persons and to the common good. The just man, often mentioned in the Sacred Scriptures, is distinguished by habitual right thinking and the uprightness of his conduct toward his neighbor. "You shall not be partial to the poor or defer to the great, but in righteousness shall you judge your neighbor."68 "Masters, treat your slaves justly and fairly, knowing that you also have a Master in heaven."69

1991 Justification is at the same time the acceptance of God’s righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ. Righteousness (or “justice”) here means the rectitude of divine love. With justification, faith, hope, and charity are poured into our hearts, and obedience to the divine will is granted us.

2009 Filial adoption, in making us partakers by grace in the divine nature, can bestow true merit on us as a result of God’s gratuitous justice. This is our right by grace, the full right of love, making us “co-heirs” with Christ and worthy of obtaining "the promised inheritance of eternal life."60 The merits of our good works are gifts of the divine goodness.61 "Grace has gone before us; now we are given what is due. . . . Our merits are God’s gifts."62

 

[BobCatholic]

It is a dogma of faith that God is absolutely perfect, that means both justice and mercy. Those are always present together.

Then between God and man, there is something that causes God’s good things to turn into imperfections and evil.

A perfect God does not create imperfect beings. Imperfections are mistakes and a perfect God does not make mistakes.

A perfect programmer does not write buggy code.

Therefore, there is something between God and man that causes all the good that God does to turn to imperfections and evil.

• The Supernatural perfects Nature. (Sent. communis.)

The supernatural is based on God’s will.

If God’s will is not to perfect someone’s nature, the nature will never be perfected.

God is limited by his will.

Taking the forgoing in hand, we are not held temporally responsible for the sins of Adam and Eve, but we experience the human nature because they choose not to transmit it to us through the original sin.

Incorrect.

If we were not temporally held responsible for the sins of Adam and Eve, we would be in the Garden of Eden with only one rule to follow. Clearly we are not there, and that is absolute, irrefutable proof we are held temporally responsible for the sins of Adam and Eve.

It there was an imperfection that caused loss of free will, then there is no mortal sin culpability.

Then why were Adam and Eve (and thus, us) kicked out of the Garden of Eden if they were created imperfect and their imperfections caused them to sin?

We are not isolated and what we do has an effect on others – we are examples to others – so a true medicine is also a deterrent to others that are scandalized.

This is the same as saying that we are held temporally responsible for the sins of others.

 

[Vico]

Then between God and man, there is something that causes God’s good things to turn into imperfections and evil.

A perfect God does not create imperfect beings. Imperfections are mistakes and a perfect God does not make mistakes.

A perfect programmer does not write buggy code.

Therefore, there is something between God and man that causes all the good that God does to turn to imperfections and evil.

The supernatural is based on God’s will.

If God’s will is not to perfect someone’s nature, the nature will never be perfected.

God is limited by his will.

Incorrect.

If we were not temporally held responsible for the sins of Adam and Eve, we would be in the Garden of Eden with only one rule to follow. Clearly we are not there, and that is absolute, irrefutable proof we are held temporally responsible for the sins of Adam and Eve.

Then why were Adam and Eve (and thus, us) kicked out of the Garden of Eden if they were created imperfect and their imperfections caused them to sin?

This is the same as saying that we are held temporally responsible for the sins of others.

We are not culpable for the sins of others. Adam and Eve did not have to sin mortally since they had sanctifying grace. You can see how that works: “The Supernatural perfects Nature. (Sent. communis.)”.

You wrote: “A perfect God does not create imperfect beings” which is not logical since God created Adam and Eve with free will so it was possible that they could love, which also means they could sin, but to compensate God gave them gifts to elevate above simple human nature: Supernatural and preternatural gifts.

God’s will is to perfect someone’s nature, with their cooperation where cooperation is possible. We know that baptized infants that die, have never been able to consent to sin and they will not be condemned. Those baptized that have no capability of free will, also will not be be condemned, because it is not possible to commit a grave sin after baptism. We also believe that there is hope for infants that die without baptism (but we have no revelation on that issue).

The Church is clear in the teaching that we are born journeying twords perfection achieved with the Beatific Vision (which is heaven).

 

[BobCatholic]

We are not culpable for the sins of others. Adam and Eve did not have to sin mortally since they had sanctifying grace. You can see how that works: “The Supernatural perfects Nature. (Sent. communis.)”.

If we are not culpable ( and I agree!) why are we held temporally responsible for the sins of Adam and Eve?

You wrote: “A perfect God does not create imperfect beings” which is not logical since God created Adam and Eve with free will so it was possible that they could love, which also means they could sin, but to compensate God gave them gifts to elevate above simple human nature: Supernatural and preternatural gifts.

God most definitely created Adam and Eve imperfect.

They had the imperfections of pride, naivete, stupidity, and or fear. Maybe one more, someone came up with another one.

A perfect programmer does not write buggy code. Adam and Eve were buggy and crashed.

Free will is reduced or eliminated due to imperfections. This is Catholic teaching. Imperfections turn free will into a cruel joke at best or nonexistent at worst.

God’s will is to perfect someone’s nature, with their cooperation where cooperation is possible.

And if one is so imperfect that their cooperation is imperfect or nonexistent due to imperfections, game over, they’re doomed.

We know that baptized infants that die, have never been able to consent to sin and they will not be condemned. Those baptized that have no capability of free will, also will not be be condemned, because it is not possible to commit a grave sin after baptism. We also believe that there is hope for infants that die without baptism (but we have no revelation on that issue).

Yes, God loves Children and has extra mercy on them.

The Church is clear in the teaching that we are born journeying twords perfection achieved with the Beatific Vision (which is heaven).

Journeying is one thing, actually making it is another.

It is ridiculously easy to go to hell, just exist. It is ridiculously hard to go to heaven - it requires horrific suffering and pain of unimaginable levels.

The scales are way out of balance, and this is another proof that free will is a cruel joke at best or nonexistent at worst.

 

[Vico]

If we are not culpable ( and I agree!) why are we held temporally responsible for the sins of Adam and Eve?

God most definitely created Adam and Eve imperfect.

They had the imperfections of pride, naivete, stupidity, and or fear. Maybe one more, someone came up with another one.

A perfect programmer does not write buggy code. Adam and Eve were buggy and crashed.

Free will is reduced or eliminated due to imperfections. This is Catholic teaching. Imperfections turn free will into a cruel joke at best or nonexistent at worst.

And if one is so imperfect that their cooperation is imperfect or nonexistent due to imperfections, game over, they’re doomed.

Yes, God loves Children and has extra mercy on them.

Journeying is one thing, actually making it is another.

It is ridiculously easy to go to hell, just exist. It is ridiculously hard to go to heaven - it requires horrific suffering and pain of unimaginable levels.

The scales are way out of balance, and this is another proof that free will is a cruel joke at best or nonexistent at worst.

.

We are not held personally responsible for the sin of Adam and Eve, as explained before. We are born with simple human nature with concupiesence. God created mankind good, but not perfect. Adam and Eve were created in a better condition that we are, however they did not have the Beatific Vision so although good they were not perfect. Also God’s plan, which was revealed by Jesus Christ, is that God provides what mankind could not achieve by nature – salvation.

It seems to me that you confuse the spiritual with the physical. Supernatural grace is necessary for salvation, but physical perfection is not. God created genetics which may be damaged through natural causes and lead to physical imperfections, even in the brain. If there is something in the physical which leads to a lack of free will in a person then than person is not culpable for mortal sin.

There is no such Catholic teaching that “imperfections turn free will into a cruel joke”, in fact it is a teaching of the faith that God is perfect in all things and is both merciful and just – there is no cruelty in God. It is normal that the world is not physically perfect. The glorified bodies only come with the resurrection of those that are saved. It is normal that salvation requires sanctifying grace of God. Even in Eden, Adam and Eve were given the supernatural and preternatural gifts to be as they were, without which they would have been as we are.

 

[fbl9]

If we are not culpable ( and I agree!) why are we held temporally responsible for the sins of Adam and Eve? snip…

.

Let`s say that you Bob went out on a gambling spree and you lost the family home. Are your children held responsible for you losing the the family home?Why not? After all they are homeless due to what you lost.