Is our free choice real

[BobCatholic]

While pondering this parable i think it doesn’t have anything to do with punishment for sin. Rather the fig tree represents the Jewish peoples and the the one who said it was not the season represents those that did not recognize Christ as the Messiah.

We note in another fig tree parable the gardener asks for time to fertilize and nurture the tree for another year. Which was granted.

Remember the Jews were made blind to the Christ on purpose, so that basically lowers their free will to zero.

In addition, the fertilization and nurturing I’m not sure is going on, since horrific things like the Holocaust and rampant anti-semitism are going on.

Also, if you have not neglected your duty to understand what is sin and is not sin, then if you are “fooling yourself” which in this case would mean invincible ignorant (since you dilligently tried to understand the faith), then you are not cuplable for objectively grave sins committed.

Also if you have proper contrition when you confess any sins and are not hiding any intentionally, and you receive absolution for you sins, then all sins mortal and venial of your life are covered. If you come to understand later that one was **mortal **and unconfessed, then you simply include it in a confession as a recently rememberd sin.

I’m definitely do both. I am seriously wanting to understand the un-understandable.

The best one can do is not to commit mortal or venial sins because they all bring temporal punishments due sin (so the attachments must be eliminated). We must all do penance (prayer, fasting, almsgiving). Gain many partial if not plenary indulgences for yourself and the faithfully departed.

Can I enter the Garden of Eden and only have one rule if I get enough plenary indulgences? I wonder if that is possible.

If that choice is not possible, part of our free will is gone.

Some punishments are medicinal, not due to actual sin or analogical sin. We do not have any temporal responsibility (first cause) for what we do not do personally. As you read Romans 5 and in Genesis 3, we do experience consequences:

Correct, we don’t have the temporal responsibility, but we are held temporally responsible. You will notice we are in the same jail cell as Adam and Eve. We don’t have a choice. The free will is gone in this part.

The Baltimore Catechism has this on sorrow for sin:

I’ve read about compunction and want to do that. But I’m unable to do that. This is because I’m imperfect and imperfections rob me of free will. If I could somehow, through a supernatural miracle, have God show his tender, wonderful side, instead of his indifferent, distant self that he normally shows me, I think I could get compunction.

Again, God’s behavior, reduces free will.

 

[Vico]

Remember the Jews were made blind to the Christ on purpose, so that basically lowers their free will to zero.
In addition, the fertilization and nurturing I’m not sure is going on, since horrific things like the Holocaust and rampant anti-semitism are going on.
I’m definitely do both. I am seriously wanting to understand the un-understandable.
Can I enter the Garden of Eden and only have one rule if I get enough plenary indulgences? I wonder if that is possible.
If that choice is not possible, part of our free will is gone.
Correct, we don’t have the temporal responsibility, but we are held temporally responsible. You will notice we are in the same jail cell as Adam and Eve. We don’t have a choice. The free will is gone in this part.
I’ve read about compunction and want to do that. But I’m unable to do that. This is because I’m imperfect and imperfections rob me of free will. If I could somehow, through a supernatural miracle, have God show his tender, wonderful side, instead of his indifferent, distant self that he normally shows me, I think I could get compunction.
Again, God’s behavior, reduces free will.

The Jews rejected the Word Jesus Christ which caused their blindness. This blindness was not temporary per Saint Paul, Rom. 11:25:
“One section of Israel has become blind, but this will last only until the whole pagan world has entered, and then, after this, the rest of Israel will be saved as well.”

The Church teaches the dogma of God’s providence. God is helping mankind through his grace, we are nutured in the spiritual life. It is our task to improved the worldly situation by becoming Christlike by our cooperation with the grace given by God.

If you are diligent but still have no self-control and thus no freedom, then it is not possible to be culpable for mortal sin. Therefore it is a situation similar to that of the infant or one that never develops the use of reason. If one is baptised and cannot sin, then there is a state of sanctifying grace.

I don’t know what “entering the Garden of Eden” means or the meaning of “have one rule”, but one that dies in the state of sanctifying grace has attained heaven and will experience it after the purgatorial state if needed. One plenary indulgence eliminates all temporal punishment due sin up to that time, which would need to be expiated in the purgatorial state, just as baptism does.

Free will does not mean we are powerful gods, we have limited free will choices.

You keep mentioning the Garden of Eden, and jail, so I gather that you are simply referring to Adam and Eve and their descendents became heirs of death and corruption. Jesus Christ through his crucifixion, death, and resurrection, has granted life to the dead. The holy will not be stopped by a “flaming sword” but have eternal life in New Jerusalem.

St. John Chrysostom, Baptismal Instruction 3:6. (Ancient Christian Writers, p. 57)
“You have seen how numerous are the gifts of baptism. Although many men think that the only gift it confers is the remission of sins, we have counted its honors to the number of ten. It is on this account that we baptize even infants, although they are sinless, that they may be given the further gifts of sanctification, justice, filial adoption, and inheritance, that they may be brothers and members of Christ, and become dwelling places of the Spirit.”

A person does not need to have compunction, although it may help, but rather have charity in the heart. Imperfect contrition is born of fear of consequences or uglyiness of evil, but perfect contrition is desire not to offend God because He is all good and deserving of our love. You do not need God to show you a miracle. Remember what was said to Dives in Luke 16

29 And Abraham said to him: They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30 But he said: No, father Abraham: but if one went to them from the dead, they will do penance. 31 And he said to him: If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they believe, if one rise again from the dead.

 

[BobCatholic]

Your extremes are not well described.

It is as horrifically difficult to be a sinner as it is to be a saint. The reason for this is that God gives us the grace to be saved, There is no remorse in being good and being saved. There is great remorse in sinning and being close to damnation.

Either you are not paying attention to the world and/or failed to read the lives of the saints.

It is ridiculously easy to be a sinner, the world is filled with them. You can throw a stone and hit someone who is a sinner.

Read the lives of the saints, it is ridiculously hard for them to be saints. They endure horrific suffering.

“Will is to grace as the horse is to the rider.”

If the will, is guided by an imperfect person, the horse will get host.

Unless the horse has the ability to overrule the will’s imperfection, being lost is guaranteed.

The Jews rejected the Word Jesus Christ which caused their blindness. This blindness was not temporary per Saint Paul, Rom. 11:25:
“One section of Israel has become blind, but this will last only until the whole pagan world has entered, and then, after this, the rest of Israel will be saved as well.”
​

Precisely. They had no choice. Their free will was eliminated, they had no choice but to be blind.

The Church teaches the dogma of God’s providence. God is helping mankind through his grace, we are nutured in the spiritual life. It is our task to improved the worldly situation by becoming Christlike by our cooperation with the grace given by God.

God’s providence is limited by his will. When people are out of work and pray for a job, and don’t get it, God was limited by his will. It was not in his will and a job was evil in his eyes.

I don’t know what “entering the Garden of Eden” means or the meaning of “have one rule”,

Adam and Eve lived in the Garden of Eden. They were kicked out. I want to go back.

“have one rule” means don’t eat from the tree, I won’t touch it, I promise!

You keep mentioning the Garden of Eden, and jail, so I gather that you are simply referring to Adam and Eve and their descendents became heirs of death and corruption.

And also that life is not a gift, but a responsibility. It is a punishment.

Jesus Christ through his crucifixion, death, and resurrection, has granted life to the dead. The holy will not be stopped by a “flaming sword” but have eternal life in New Jerusalem.

Jesus Christ only took care of the spiritual punishments, not the temporal ones. As a result, we are still in the jail cell that Adam and Eve are in.

A person does not need to have compunction, although it may help, but rather have charity in the heart.

How does one know if they have charity? And how to know if that charity is sufficient for acceptance by God?

Imperfect contrition is born of fear of consequences or uglyiness of evil, but perfect contrition is desire not to offend God because He is all good and deserving of our love.

Perfect contrition is impossible to get by imperfect people, because it requires one to be 100% detached from any sin, including mortal, venial and imperfections. We must be perfect to have perfect contrition.

You do not need God to show you a miracle.

I don’t expect a miracle, I expect God to show me his tender and kind side. If that is a miracle, that says negative things about God.

29 And Abraham said to him: They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30 But he said: No, father Abraham: but if one went to them from the dead, they will do penance. 31 And he said to him: If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they believe, if one rise again from the dead.

Two problems I have with this.

1. Scripture is written in a general way, not specific to me. I’m not expecting that to happen anyway. As a result, the general revelation is incomplete because it does not answer questions I have.
2. The scriptures were written by others. Tell me, who should I listen to? Someone else talking about you (even though they speak well of you) or you talking about you? Which has the more precise viewpoint? I’d say you talking about you. Someone telling me God is tender is hard to understand and gather, when I’m going through suffering while others are exempt (they get the tenderness but not me) This is why I want to experience the tenderness of God.

 

[Vico]

Either you are not paying attention to the world and/or failed to read the lives of the saints.
It is ridiculously easy to be a sinner, the world is filled with them. You can throw a stone and hit someone who is a sinner.
Read the lives of the saints, it is ridiculously hard for them to be saints. They endure horrific suffering.
If the will, is guided by an imperfect person, the horse will get host.
Unless the horse has the ability to overrule the will’s imperfection, being lost is guaranteed.
Precisely. They had no choice. Their free will was eliminated, they had no choice but to be blind.
God’s providence is limited by his will. When people are out of work and pray for a job, and don’t get it, God was limited by his will. It was not in his will and a job was evil in his eyes.
Adam and Eve lived in the Garden of Eden. They were kicked out. I want to go back.
“have one rule” means don’t eat from the tree, I won’t touch it, I promise!
And also that life is not a gift, but a responsibility. It is a punishment.
Jesus Christ only took care of the spiritual punishments, not the temporal ones. As a result, we are still in the jail cell that Adam and Eve are in.
How does one know if they have charity? And how to know if that charity is sufficient for acceptance by God?
Perfect contrition is impossible to get by imperfect people, because it requires one to be 100% detached from any sin, including mortal, venial and imperfections. We must be perfect to have perfect contrition.
I don’t expect a miracle, I expect God to show me his tender and kind side. If that is a miracle, that says negative things about God.
Two problems I have with this.

1. Scripture is written in a general way, not specific to me. I’m not expecting that to happen anyway. As a result, the general revelation is incomplete because it does not answer questions I have.
2. The scriptures were written by others. Tell me, who should I listen to? Someone else talking about you (even though they speak well of you) or you talking about you? Which has the more precise viewpoint? I’d say you talking about you. Someone telling me God is tender is hard to understand and gather, when I’m going through suffering while others are exempt (they get the tenderness but not me) This is why I want to experience the tenderness of God.

Perfect contrition does not mean absence of attachment to sin. Baltimore Catechism:
A. 765 Perfect contrition is that which fills us with sorrow and hatred for sin, because it offends God, who is infinitely good in Himself and worthy of all love.

What action would be a show of God’s tender and kind side in your opinion?

You can never go back to the Garden of Eden because you were never there. We were not destined for the Garden of Eden and New Jerusalem is our destination of the higher life.

The purpose for which man was created is to know, love, and serve God. You can consider that punishment if you want to. Even though we did not ask to be created, we will live forever in a body, and if attaining heaven it will be a glorified body. That will not seem to be punishment and will be seen as a gift.

Jesus Christ did take care of all temporal punishment due sin, as it is entirely removed in baptism and also with a plenary indulgence. Other sufferings in life are part of the plan.

God’s providence is not limited by his will rather his will is providence. The care by which
God preserves and governs the world and all it contains His providence. Providence does not mean that people get everything that they need or want.

The Church teaches that revelation is complete, but that not all things were revealed.

 

[BobCatholic]

Perfect contrition does not mean absence of attachment to sin. Baltimore Catechism:
A. 765 Perfect contrition is that which fills us with sorrow and hatred for sin, because it offends God, who is infinitely good in Himself and worthy of all love.

OK, but it is impossible to get a plenary indulgence, which requires zero attachment to any sin - unless one is perfect. Only God can make one perfect.

What action would be a show of God’s tender and kind side in your opinion?

Time after time I’ve read people’s conversion stories where they have an intimate encounter with God where God shows how totally awesome and tender he is.

You can never go back to the Garden of Eden because you were never there.

Precisely. That’s because I’m being held temporally responsible for the sin of Adam and Eve. And so are everyone else here on this planet.

We were not destined for the Garden of Eden and New Jerusalem is our destination of the higher life.

I know. But at least it would be a far easier ride to the New Jerusalem.

The purpose for which man was created is to know, love, and serve God.

I want to know God better. But he avoids me. I want to love God, but he avoids me. How can I serve someone who avoids me and does not want me?

You can consider that punishment if you want to.

The temporal punishment is that we are outside of the Garden of Eden.
Imperfections are another punishment.
Sufferings imposed by God in Genesis 3 are punishments.

Adam and Eve lived in paradise on earth and only had to follow one rule.
We don’t live in paradise and have to follow tons of rules. That’s punishment.

Jesus Christ did take care of all temporal punishment due sin, as it is entirely removed in baptism and also with a plenary indulgence.

Then we would have immediately been transported to the Garden of Eden and only have to follow one rule.

That is not the case.

In addition, God holds back on the redemption of our bodies while we are here (Romans 8:23) so our bodies have not been redeemed yet.

That holding back is part of the punishment.

God’s providence is not limited by his will rather his will is providence.

If something is not in God’s will, He will not provide it. Thus his providence is utterly limited by his will.

. Providence does not mean that people get everything that they need or want.

And because they’re not guaranteed to get their needs, that shows God’s providence is limited by his will as well. I can understand not getting our wants and desires. We can want and desire evil things due to our imperfections. But we know what we need.

The Church teaches that revelation is complete, but that not all things were revealed.

Correct, not everything was revealed. God is limited by his will, yet again.

 

[Vico]

OK, but it is impossible to get a plenary indulgence, which requires zero attachment to any sin - unless one is perfect. Only God can make one perfect.
Time after time I’ve read people’s conversion stories where they have an intimate encounter with God where God shows how totally awesome and tender he is.
Precisely. That’s because I’m being held temporally responsible for the sin of Adam and Eve. And so are everyone else here on this planet.
I know. But at least it would be a far easier ride to the New Jerusalem.
I want to know God better. But he avoids me. I want to love God, but he avoids me. How can I serve someone who avoids me and does not want me?
The temporal punishment is that we are outside of the Garden of Eden.
Imperfections are another punishment.
Sufferings imposed by God in Genesis 3 are punishments.
Adam and Eve lived in paradise on earth and only had to follow one rule.
We don’t live in paradise and have to follow tons of rules. That’s punishment.
Then we would have immediately been transported to the Garden of Eden and only have to follow one rule.
That is not the case.
In addition, God holds back on the redemption of our bodies while we are here (Romans 8:23) so our bodies have not been redeemed yet.
That holding back is part of the punishment.
If something is not in God’s will, He will not provide it. Thus his providence is utterly limited by his will.
And because they’re not guaranteed to get their needs, that shows God’s providence is limited by his will as well. I can understand not getting our wants and desires. We can want and desire evil things due to our imperfections. But we know what we need.
Correct, not everything was revealed. God is limited by his will, yet again.

Sufferings in life are part of the plan for creation.

Living in paradise is not our purpose in our lives, but to know, love, and serve God, and to be happy with God in the heavenly state later.

You can serve someone who avoids me and does not want me by staying in the state of grace, which is the state of faith, hope, and charity.

The Church teaches a few dogmas that seem to be are contrary to what you are thinking. (Below, from Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma):

• God loves Himself of necessity, but loves and wills the creation of extra-Divine things, on the other hand, with freedom. (De fide.)
• God, through His Providence, protects and guides all that He has created. (De fide.)
• God is absolute Veracity. (De fide.)
• God is absolutely faithful. (De fide.)
• God is absolutely just (De fide.)
• God is absolutely merciful. (De fide.)
• Despite men’s sins God truly and earnestly desires the salvation of all men. (Sent. fidei proxima.)

It is possible to get a plenary indulgence. It is also possible to receive thousands of partial indulgences for those in a state of sanctifying grace. It is not necessary to seek or receive any indulgences.

 

[BobCatholic]

Sufferings in life are part of the plan for creation.

Why?

They would not be necessary had God created us perfect instead of imperfect.

Living in paradise is not our purpose in our lives, but to know, love, and serve God, and to be happy with God in the heavenly state later.

I want to live in paradise, because life would be easier. I’m too weak and stupid to handle the way life is now. I want to be in the Garden of Eden where I only have to follow one rule.

Somehow we have to survive until then.

You can serve someone who avoids me and does not want me by staying in the state of grace, which is the state of faith, hope, and charity.

But grace is easily lost. It is like a fragile piece of glassware, easily broken.

The Church teaches a few dogmas that seem to be are contrary to what you are thinking. (Below, from Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma):

I don’t think my thinking is contrary to the Catholic faith (then again, I could be fooling myself).

*]God, through His Providence, protects and guides all that He has created. (De fide.)

If God protects us, we would never fall into trouble. God would deliver us from evil. Evil would not befall us and we could be actually standing a far better chance of getting into heaven.

*]Despite men’s sins God truly and earnestly desires the salvation of all men. (Sent. fidei proxima.)

Which contradicts how He behaves. He creates imperfect human beings, whose default state is hell. Then after baptism, He makes it horrifically difficult to go to heaven, through tremendous amount of suffer. If someone manages to survive, the default destination is purgatory, and then it takes horrific amounts of suffering to get past purgatory. God does give grace, but it is fragile and easily lost. The grace also does not overcome people’s imperfections.

As a result, salvation, as Christ says, “few find it.” and we must be strong or else the dark one will overcome us.

God created Adam and Eve imperfect and they were created in a far better state than we were. They fell due to their imperfections.

We are nowhere near as good as they are, we are like 50 million times more imperfect than they are.

Adam and Eve had only one rule. We have 10 multiplied by millions.

We are far weaker and have higher levels of requirements.

And God wills our salvation? I hope so, but his actions don’t seem to do this.

Yes, Christ did an awesome thing with the cross. He saved our souls.
But our bodies are still not redeemed and God holds back (Romans 8:23).

God cares about the spiritual so much that he does not care about the temporal.

In addition, it is ridiculously easy to go to hell and ridiculously difficult to go to heaven. The scales are out of balance.

It is possible to get a plenary indulgence.

Only perfect people can get a plenary indulgence, because it requires zero attachment to even the tiniest sin. It requires zero imperfections.

It is not necessary to seek or receive any indulgences.

It is required to gain a plenary indulgence immediately prior to death or else purgatory time.

 

[Vico]

Why?
They would not be necessary had God created us perfect instead of imperfect.
I want to live in paradise, because life would be easier. I’m too weak and stupid to handle the way life is now. I want to be in the Garden of Eden where I only have to follow one rule.
Somehow we have to survive until then.
But grace is easily lost. It is like a fragile piece of glassware, easily broken.
I don’t think my thinking is contrary to the Catholic faith (then again, I could be fooling myself).
If God protects us, we would never fall into trouble. God would deliver us from evil. Evil would not befall us and we could be actually standing a far better chance of getting into heaven.
Which contradicts how He behaves. He creates imperfect human beings, whose default state is hell. Then after baptism, He makes it horrifically difficult to go to heaven, through tremendous amount of suffer. If someone manages to survive, the default destination is purgatory, and then it takes horrific amounts of suffering to get past purgatory. God does give grace, but it is fragile and easily lost. The grace also does not overcome people’s imperfections.
As a result, salvation, as Christ says, “few find it.” and we must be strong or else the dark one will overcome us.
God created Adam and Eve imperfect and they were created in a far better state than we were. They fell due to their imperfections.
We are nowhere near as good as they are, we are like 50 million times more imperfect than they are.
Adam and Eve had only one rule. We have 10 multiplied by millions.
We are far weaker and have higher levels of requirements.
And God wills our salvation? I hope so, but his actions don’t seem to do this.
Yes, Christ did an awesome thing with the cross. He saved our souls.
But our bodies are still not redeemed and God holds back (Romans 8:23).
God cares about the spiritual so much that he does not care about the temporal.
In addition, it is ridiculously easy to go to hell and ridiculously difficult to go to heaven. The scales are out of balance.
Only perfect people can get a plenary indulgence, because it requires zero attachment to even the tiniest sin. It requires zero imperfections.
It is required to gain a plenary indulgence immediately prior to death or else purgatory time.

Since you are posting against the canons that I posted for you previously (on mercy, justice, and providence), you can be sure that those are incorrect ideas. Note that you wrote “if God protects us”, but it is certain that God does.

It is easy for those that commit mortal sin to fall because they freely choose to fall. The Grace also does not overcome people’s free will – the person must cooperate with it willingly. Catechism
1033 We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves:…

A creature cannot be infinitely perfect like God, but can journey towards it, and achieve the Beatific Vision, although to varying degrees. God is infinitely wise so has chosen to create the world with imperfections, although it is very good. One dogma of faith is that:

• God’s Essence is also incomprehensible to the blessed in Heaven. (De fide.)

Our trials in life allow us to receive a crown of victory and will give greater glory to God for having made it all possible.

No, a plenary indulgence or many partial indulgences is not the only way to overcome temporal punishment. In purgatory attachments to creatures will be eliminated from everyone destined for the heavenly state, before the Last Judgment. (The Fathers of the Church would say as if by fire.)

Perfection is not required to gain a plenary indulgence. Detachment from all committed mortal and venial sin that one know about does not require a person to be prefect. A priest write on detachment from sin:

The requirement for someone to be totally detached from sin needs some explanation. No doubt it is the most difficult condition for obtaining the indulgence. Notably, however, the requirement is not freedom from all sin. Rather, it is freedom from attachment to sin; that is, that there is no sin which the soul is unwilling to renounce. A person should be able to tell if he is fulfilling this condition. An attachment involves a refusal to amend a situation, and a person should be able to tell if he has such an attachment. Sometimes, deep down, we really don’t want to let go of certain sins, be it gossiping or overeating or loafing on the job. This differs from the case of normal human weakness or where a person falls into the same sin many times before overcoming it. To souls such as these the Church is ready to open her treasury of aid.
Yours in Christ, Father Edward McIlmail, LC

spiritualdirection.com/2010/11/18/what-is-total-detachment-from-sin-more-indulgence-clarification

 

[BobCatholic]

Since you are posting against the canons that I posted for you previously (on mercy, justice, and providence), you can be sure that those are incorrect ideas. Note that you wrote “if God protects us”, but it is certain that God does.

How can one be protected against evil and not protected against evil at the same time? This violates the logical principle of non-contradiction. God is logical and doesn’t do that.

It is easy for those that commit mortal sin to fall because they freely choose to fall.

How does someone FREELY choose something if their imperfections are so large that they are unable to make truly free decisions? Imperfections rob people of free will.

The Grace also does not overcome people’s free will – the person must cooperate with it willingly.

If Grace does not overcome people’s imperfections, they won’t have free will.

A creature cannot be infinitely perfect like God,

They can’t be infinitely perfect like God but they CAN be perfect.

Saints.

Angels.

Mary.

Perfection.

God is infinitely wise so has chosen to create the world with imperfections, although it is very good

.

How is creating a world with imperfections wise? A computer programmer must be an expert because he littered the software with tons of bugs. Really?

Our trials in life allow us to receive a crown of victory and will give greater glory to God for having made it all possible.

This assumes God wills it for an individual.

No, a plenary indulgence or many partial indulgences is not the only way to overcome temporal punishment. In purgatory attachments to creatures will be eliminated from everyone destined for the heavenly state, before the Last Judgment. (The Fathers of the Church would say as if by fire.)

So an imperfect person has no choice to go to heaven, only purgatory AT BEST. Hell at worst. Some choice.

Perfection is not required to gain a plenary indulgence.

Detachment from all committed mortal and venial sin that one know about does not require a person to be prefect. A priest write on detachment from sin:

To gain a plenary indulgence, one must have no attachment to ANY mortal sins and ANY venial sins. OK, an imperfect person could qualify.

But this also requires no attachment to any imperfections (i.e. less than venial sins) because the requirement is attachment to NO SIN AT ALL. This requires perfection to meet this elevated standard.

For imperfect people, there is only one choice : the partial indulgence. Free will = zero when there is only one choice.

 

[Vico]

How can one be protected against evil and not protected against evil at the same time? This violates the logical principle of non-contradiction. God is logical and doesn’t do that.
How does someone FREELY choose something if their imperfections are so large that they are unable to make truly free decisions? Imperfections rob people of free will.
If Grace does not overcome people’s imperfections, they won’t have free will.
They can’t be infinitely perfect like God but they CAN be perfect.
Saints.
Angels.
Mary.
Perfection.
How is creating a world with imperfections wise? A computer programmer must be an expert because he littered the software with tons of bugs. Really?
This assumes God wills it for an individual.
So an imperfect person has no choice to go to heaven, only purgatory AT BEST. Hell at worst. Some choice.
To gain a plenary indulgence, one must have no attachment to ANY mortal sins and ANY venial sins. OK, an imperfect person could qualify.
But this also requires no attachment to any imperfections (i.e. less than venial sins) because the requirement is attachment to NO SIN AT ALL. This requires perfection to meet this elevated standard.
For imperfect people, there is only one choice : the partial indulgence. Free will = zero when there is only one choice.

You ask: "How can one be protected against evil and not protected against evil at the same time? "
A. Easy, there are different senses of the word evil. There are what people call evil, such as what that do not like to experience, and then there is moral evil committed by people unwittingly, and then there is moral evil committed by people by choice. God gives us grace and salvation which is a protection from a type of evil. No contradiction there.

I wrote “It is easy for those that commit mortal sin to fall because they freely choose to fall.” – There is no moral fall through actions that are not free.

You wrote: “If Grace does not overcome people’s imperfections, they won’t have free will.”
A. Man has to struggle with the imperfections. Actual grace is given to help those with free will:

• There is a supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul, which precedes the free act of the will. (De fide.)
• There is a supernatural influence of God in the faculties of the soul which coincides in time with man’s free act of will. (De fide.)

A person with no free will is like an non-human animals which are not culpable for their acts. Non-human animals do not receive actual grace.

You wrote: “…they CAN be perfect.”
A. There is a dogma of faith that "The degree of perfection of the beatific vision granted to the just is proportioned to each one’s merits. (De fide.) "

You asked: “How is creating a world with imperfections wise?”
A. That is known by God, what we know it that God is infinitely wise. We do not comprehend what God does because we are not perfect as God is.

You wrote: “This assumes God wills it for an individual.”
A. And God does, but that does not cause it to happen, because God allows mankind to oppose good with evil. Catholics do not believe in double predestination.

You wrote: “So an imperfect person has no choice to go to heaven, only purgatory AT BEST. Hell at worst. Some choice.”
A. Those that experience purgatory end up in heaven.

You wrote: “But this also requires no attachment to any imperfections (i.e. less than venial sins)”.
A. No. The requirement for plenary indulgence is the exclusion of all attachment to sin, even venial sin, which does not mean all imperfection. There are imperfections that are neither venial nor mortal sin, which are called defects and deficiencies. Many partial indulgences can be applied to eliminate temporal punishment.

 

[BobCatholic]

You ask: "How can one be protected against evil and not protected against evil at the same time? "
A. Easy, there are different senses of the word evil.

There are different types of evil, I agree, but I thought God protected us from all of them.

I was not aware that there was an asterisk and lawyerese fine print in Our Father “…and deliver us from evil*”

Or an asterisk and lawyerese fine print in the mass

“deliver us from all evil* and grant us peace in our days”

• not valid for all types of evil, just certain ones that God wills to protect you from. Everything else you’re on your own.

So you’re saying God is holding back again. I wasn’t aware that God behaves like a corrupt lawyer trying to CYA with fine print in lawyerese and an asterisk. I don’t see God this way.

God is limited by his will, and if God does not will something for an individual, it never happens.

I wrote “It is easy for those that commit mortal sin to fall because they freely choose to fall.” – There is no moral fall through actions that are not free.

No, but evils are still done by those who “are not free” as you define it. And people with free will are temporally held responsible for the evils that are caused by these people.

You wrote: “If Grace does not overcome people’s imperfections, they won’t have free will.”
A. Man has to struggle with the imperfections.

And how are they going to do that with imperfections that overcome their free will?

Actual grace is given to help those with free will:
*]There is a supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul, which precedes the free act of the will. (De fide.)
*]There is a supernatural influence of God in the faculties of the soul which coincides in time with man’s free act of will. (De fide.)

Both of statements assume one has free will. For those who do, they is true. For those who don’t, they don’t apply.

I can see you interpreting that first one as “God acts and one is able to exercise free will” - this is true, if it is God’s will for the individual. Remember, God is limited by his will. If God does not will it, it does not happen.

A person with no free will is like an non-human animals which are not culpable for their acts. Non-human animals do not receive actual grace.

Or it can be a human being with tons of imperfections which overrule their free will; which you dehumanize in contradiction to Catholic teaching.

You wrote: “…they CAN be perfect.”
A. There is a dogma of faith that "The degree of perfection of the beatific vision granted to the just is proportioned to each one’s merits. (De fide.) "

Correct.

But there are no imperfect persons in heaven. Even one at the lowest level of perfection is still perfect.

A. That is known by God, what we know it that God is infinitely wise. We do not comprehend what God does because we are not perfect as God is.

Precisely.

The Great Programmer creates buggy software which crashes. I don’t understand why that is wise. I would think that software needs to be bug-free, so it can run properly and have full free will.

You wrote: “This assumes God wills it for an individual.”
A. And God does, but that does not cause it to happen, because God allows mankind to oppose good with evil. Catholics do not believe in double predestination.

Grace that is not effective is the same as grace that does not exist, in terms of results. God doesn’t give grace, so it would be ineffective. That would make God imperfect, and He is infinitely perfect.

Effective grace becomes like Christ’s yoke “easy and light” - one wants to do good, it becomes easy to do, turning away from sin is easy to do, staying out of sin is easy to do, obtaining virtues is easy to do.

But that is not the case. We are imperfect. We have to struggle through this. The onus is all on us. It 10000% depends on our cooperation, which is weak and puny, compared to the huge onslaught of evil coming our way. God’s grace does not overcome weakness, it only makes it sinful because one can fall and reject the grace.

You wrote: “So an imperfect person has no choice to go to heaven, only purgatory AT BEST. Hell at worst. Some choice.”
A. Those that experience purgatory end up in heaven.

I know they go to heaven AFTER purgatory. But at the time of death, their only choice is purgatory or hell. There is no choice for heaven at the time of death, due to imperfections.

This is one proof that imperfections rob people of their free will. No choice for heaven at death.

You wrote: “But this also requires no attachment to any imperfections (i.e. less than venial sins)”.
A. No. The requirement for plenary indulgence is the exclusion of all attachment to sin, even venial sin, which does not mean all imperfection. There are imperfections that are neither venial nor mortal sin, which are called defects and deficiencies. Many partial indulgences can be applied to eliminate temporal punishment.

“All sin” means all sin, including defects, deficiencies - imperfections. We can’t have even the attachment to the slightest sin - which is imperfection.

And how many partial indulgences can be applied to eliminate the temporal punishment due to Adam and Eve’s sin and the sins of our ancestors, so we can return to the Garden of Eden during the lifetime here on this planet? I think that’s the only temporal punishment that indulgences can’t eliminate.

 

[Vico]

…

You wrote: “And how are they going to do that [struggle with the imperfections] with imperfections that overcome their free will?”
A. Once again you said no free will. If one, can not exercise free will then there cannot even be prayer to God, unless it is a habit from before free will was lost. Struggle in this case meaning 3 (Collins Dictionary) “to make one’s way with difficulty”.

I wrote: “A person with no free will is like an non-human animals which are not culpable for their acts. Non-human animals do not receive actual grace.”
You wrote: “Or it can be a human being with tons of imperfections which overrule their free will; which you dehumanize in contradiction to Catholic teaching.”
A. No, I used the words “like an non-human animals which are not culpable” – this is about culpability not essence. Free will is necessary to be responsible (mortal sin). It is not duhumanizing, rather expression of mercy and justice.

You wrote: “Grace that is not effective is the same as grace that does not exist, in terms of results. God doesn’t give grace, so it would be ineffective. That would make God imperfect, and He is infinitely perfect.”
A. That grace is called sufficient grace when it is not efficacious, becaue it is sufficient for salvation but by free will the person rejects it. God does give grace even before conversion and sufficient grace (this is a dogma of faith).

You wrote: “God’s grace does not overcome weakness, it only makes it sinful because one can fall and reject the grace.”
A. Clearly against Catholic teachings for a person without grace could not be saved at all, due to grace one can be.

You wrote: “I know they go to heaven AFTER purgatory. But at the time of death, their only choice is purgatory or hell. There is no choice for heaven at the time of death, due to imperfections.”
A. Not true, some people have no temporal punishment at their death. Just a few examples:

1. infants that die before the age of reason,
2. those that recieve a plenary indulgence at that time,
3. those that receive the Apostolic Blessing at the time of Anointing of the Sick.
4. baptism of blood (martyrs).

You wrote: “All sin” means all sin, including defects, deficiencies - imperfections. We can’t have even the attachment to the slightest sin - which is imperfection."
A. No, because all defects and deficiencies are not sins, neither mortal nor venial.

You wrote: “And how many partial indulgences can be applied to eliminate the temporal punishment due to Adam and Eve’s sin and the sins of our ancestors, so we can return to the Garden of Eden during the lifetime here on this planet?”
A. Indulgences are for temporal punishment due actual sin, not for original sin, especially since one has to be baptised and in a state of grace even to receive even a partial indulgence. There was never a possibility to “return to the Garden of Eden during the lifetime here on this planet” since we were never there. Those after Adam and Eve could look forward to New Jerusalem in glorified bodies after the General Judgement.

 

[BobCatholic]

You wrote: “And how are they going to do that [struggle with the imperfections] with imperfections that overcome their free will?”
A. Once again you said no free will. If one, can not exercise free will then there cannot even be prayer to God, unless it is a habit from before free will was lost. Struggle in this case meaning 3 (Collins Dictionary) “to make one’s way with difficulty”.

People can pray to God, without having free will. They’re just getting “no” for an answer, since there is no choice.

Just because people can do one good thing, does not mean they have free will.

I wrote: “A person with no free will is like an non-human animals which are not culpable for their acts. Non-human animals do not receive actual grace.”
You wrote: “Or it can be a human being with tons of imperfections which overrule their free will; which you dehumanize in contradiction to Catholic teaching.”
A. No, I used the words “like an non-human animals which are not culpable” – this is about culpability not essence. Free will is necessary to be responsible (mortal sin). It is not duhumanizing, rather expression of mercy and justice.

I don’t see it that way. Comparing humans without free to non-humans, morally speaking, is dehumanizing. Your analogy not only limped, but broke its leg.

If you’re trying to use a better analogy, I see people without free will as disabled, like having a broken leg. Still human, just missing something needed.

A. That grace is called sufficient grace when it is not efficacious, becaue it is sufficient for salvation but by free will the person rejects it. God does give grace even before conversion and sufficient grace (this is a dogma of faith).

How does a person, whose imperfections cause them to not have free will, are in a position to reject grace? God doesn’t give grace to those whom he knows will reject it because they are so woefully imperfect. That is a waste of grace. That’s an imperfection and God is perfect, so this does not happen.

First, God has to give someone the grace to overcome their imperfections, to restore free will, and proper information so they know what they’re rejecting. If either of these are missing, grace is missing.

Think about this. A baby is aborted and dies. Goes before the Pearly Gates. Does God say “elevator down” for the baby? Of course not. The baby will be put in a position of knowing what the choice is and fully informed. Otherwise, this eliminates God’s justice.

You wrote: “God’s grace does not overcome weakness, it only makes it sinful because one can fall and reject the grace.”
A. Clearly against Catholic teachings for a person without grace could not be saved at all, due to grace one can be.

Where is it in Catholic teaching (de fide, dogma, Scripture, Tradition) that God gives grace to overcome imperfections? He clearly didn’t give this grace to overcome Paul’s imperfections, he still had that thorn in the side.

A. Not true, some people have no temporal punishment at their death. Just a few examples:

1. infants that die before the age of reason,
2. those that recieve a plenary indulgence at that time,
3. those that receive the Apostolic Blessing at the time of Anointing of the Sick.
4. baptism of blood (martyrs).

In God’s eyes, those have been perfected and are perfect. They have zero imperfections.

I state it again: Imperfect people have no choice,at the time of death : only purgatory or hell. Free will = zero for them.

You wrote: “All sin” means all sin, including defects, deficiencies - imperfections. We can’t have even the attachment to the slightest sin - which is imperfection."
A. No, because all defects and deficiencies are not sins, neither mortal nor venial.

The smallest venial sins are known as imperfections. They’re small and venial. To gain a plenary indulgence, one cannot have one iota of attachment to the teeniest of tiniest of sins. One must be perfect.

Indulgences are for temporal punishment due actual sin, not for original sin, especially since one has to be baptised and in a state of grace even to receive even a partial indulgence. There was never a possibility to “return to the Garden of Eden during the lifetime here on this planet” since we were never there. Those after Adam and Eve could look forward to New Jerusalem in glorified bodies after the General Judgement.

However, after baptism, one is not immediately beamed into the Garden of Eden, and only required to follow one rule for the rest of their lives. So not all temporal punishment appears to be obliterated by baptism.

Actually, there WAS a possibility. When God commanded to Adam and Eve to “be fruitful and multiply” - he said that while in the Garden of Eden. Why would God give a command that could not be fulfilled in the Garden of Eden? Sounds like setting up someone to fail.

God clearly intended Adam and Eve’s children to live in the Garden along with them. But when they failed, the temporal punishment went to everyone, and we are in the same jail cell as they are.

 

[Vico]

…

You wrote: “People can pray to God, without having free will. They’re just getting “no” for an answer, since there is no choice.”
A. Of course, for example from habit. It has nothing to do with reception or non reception of an answer.

Your wrote: “Just because people can do one good thing, does not mean they have free will.”
A. One merits only in the state of sanctifying grace, which occurs at baptism. Those that do good, without sanctifying grace, receive no merit for it.

You wrote: “… I see people without free will as disabled, like having a broken leg. Still human, just missing something needed.” and “How does a person, whose imperfections cause them to not have free will, are in a position to reject grace?”
A. Of course, I never said people were not human if an act is without free will, as I explained, but like animals that have no culpability.

You wrote: “God doesn’t give grace to those whom he knows will reject it because they are so woefully imperfect. That is a waste of grace. That’s an imperfection and God is perfect, so this does not happen.”
A. No Catholic dogma states that without the grace of God no person can be saved, but that God always makes the first movement with actual graces, even before conversion. Sanctifying grace is received at baptism. For example an infant, or a person that is not an infant that never achieves the use of reason, that is baptized is saved, not being capable of sin. There may be many deficiencies present however.

You wrote: “First, God has to give someone the grace to overcome their imperfections, to restore free will, and proper information so they know what they’re rejecting. If either of these are missing, grace is missing.” and “Where is it in Catholic teaching (de fide, dogma, Scripture, Tradition) that God gives grace to overcome imperfections? He clearly didn’t give this grace to overcome Paul’s imperfections, he still had that thorn in the side.”
A. No, grace is given with baptism and deficiencies are not removed. So although commission of mortal sin requires the three things and will cause loss of sanctifying grace, sanctifying grace is not lost with venial sin and neither is salvation.

Additionally not all actions are sins. As stated in Catholic Encyclopedia (Sin): “When the intelligent creature, knowing God and His law, deliberately refuses to obey, moral evil results.”

Note also that (Catholic Encylopedia - Sin) "Luther and Calvin taught as their fundamental error that no free will properly so called remained in man after the fall of our first parents; "

You wrote: “Think about this. A baby is aborted and dies. Goes before the Pearly Gates. Does God say “elevator down” for the baby? Of course not. The baby will be put in a position of knowing what the choice is and fully informed. Otherwise, this eliminates God’s justice.”
A. The Church teaches that we can only hope for the salvation of unbaptized infants, it is not certainly known.

You wrote: “In God’s eyes, those have been perfected and are perfect. They have zero imperfections.”
A. Not all those categories of the Saints are listed. There are others that were very sinful but had final repentance, but die with termporal punishments remaining, yet they attain heaven. See Catechism 302

You wrote: “I state it again: Imperfect people have no choice,at the time of death : only purgatory or hell. Free will = zero for them.”
A. Salvation results at the time of death with the presence of sanctifying grace, regardless of the amount of temporal punishments remaining. The free will choice is made before death by committing sin or repentance.

You wrote: “The smallest venial sins are known as imperfections. They’re small and venial. To gain a plenary indulgence, one cannot have one iota of attachment to the teeniest of tiniest of sins. One must be perfect.”
A. No, the Church does not teach that.

You wrote: " So not all temporal punishment appears to be obliterated by baptism" and “God clearly intended Adam and Eve’s children to live in the Garden along with them. But when they failed, the temporal punishment went to everyone, and we are in the same jail cell as they are.”
A. All temporal punishment due sin is eliminated with baptism. Catechism

1263 By Baptism all sins are forgiven, original sin and all personal sins, as well as all punishment for sin.65 In those who have been reborn nothing remains that would impede their entry into the Kingdom of God, neither Adam’s sin, nor personal sin, nor the consequences of sin, the gravest of which is separation from God.

1264 Yet certain temporal consequences of sin remain in the baptized, such as suffering, illness, death, and such frailties inherent in life as weaknesses of character, and so on, as well as an inclination to sin that Tradition calls concupiscence, or metaphorically, “the tinder for sin” (fomes peccati); since concupiscence "is left for us to wrestle with, it cannot harm those who do not consent but manfully resist it by the grace of Jesus Christ."66 Indeed, "an athlete is not crowned unless he competes according to the rules."67

You wrote “Actually, there WAS a possibility. When God commanded to Adam and Eve to “be fruitful and multiply” - he said that while in the Garden of Eden. Why would God give a command that could not be fulfilled in the Garden of Eden? Sounds like setting up someone to fail.”
A. God knew what would happen, but gave our first parents what was sufficient to not fall. The giving of free will does allow for sin, and it is the will of God, that angels and humans in general have a free will choice. Without the free will choice there is no culpability. A machine, for example, does not love or hate, although there are automatic actions.

 

[BobCatholic]

You wrote: “People can pray to God, without having free will. They’re just getting “no” for an answer, since there is no choice.”
A. Of course, for example from habit. It has nothing to do with reception or non reception of an answer.

Yes. A GOOD habit. Something good. Since all good comes from God, that is His Action.

Your wrote: “Just because people can do one good thing, does not mean they have free will.”
A. One merits only in the state of sanctifying grace, which occurs at baptism. Those that do good, without sanctifying grace, receive no merit for it.

That does not address my statement about free will.

You wrote: “God doesn’t give grace to those whom he knows will reject it because they are so woefully imperfect. That is a waste of grace. That’s an imperfection and God is perfect, so this does not happen.”
A. No Catholic dogma states that without the grace of God no person can be saved, but that God always makes the first movement with actual graces, even before conversion. Sanctifying grace is received at baptism. For example an infant, or a person that is not an infant that never achieves the use of reason, that is baptized is saved, not being capable of sin. There may be many deficiencies present however.

Infants are loved by God a lot, so they don’t fit the situation I’m talking about.

An imperfect adult, with many deficiencies, is not going to get grace if God knows he will reject the grace.

No, grace is given with baptism and deficiencies are not removed.

Precisely. And that means that one is set up to fail.

You wrote: “Think about this. A baby is aborted and dies. Goes before the Pearly Gates. Does God say “elevator down” for the baby? Of course not. The baby will be put in a position of knowing what the choice is and fully informed. Otherwise, this eliminates God’s justice.”
A. The Church teaches that we can only hope for the salvation of unbaptized infants, it is not certainly known.

Some theologians speculate (yes, I know, a speculation, not official Catholic teaching) that they’re put before God and given a choice.

You wrote: “In God’s eyes, those have been perfected and are perfect. They have zero imperfections.”
A. Not all those categories of the Saints are listed. There are others that were very sinful but had final repentance, but die with termporal punishments remaining, yet they attain heaven. See Catechism 302

Yes, those imperfect people attain heaven…AFTER purgatory. There was no choice of heaven for them at the time of death. It was only purgatory or hell, and since they had grace, they got purgatory.

You wrote: “I state it again: Imperfect people have no choice,at the time of death : only purgatory or hell. Free will = zero for them.”
A. Salvation results at the time of death with the presence of sanctifying grace, regardless of the amount of temporal punishments remaining. The free will choice is made before death by committing sin or repentance.

if one is imperfect and have no choice at the time of death, how do they have a choice before?

You wrote: “The smallest venial sins are known as imperfections. They’re small and venial. To gain a plenary indulgence, one cannot have one iota of attachment to the teeniest of tiniest of sins. One must be perfect.”
A. No, the Church does not teach that.

ewtn.com/devotionals/mercy/general_conditions.htm

have the interior disposition of complete detachment from sin, even venial sin;

Complete detachment does not mean “holding on to a small one” It means 100%. Perfection.

You wrote: " So not all temporal punishment appears to be obliterated by baptism" and “God clearly intended Adam and Eve’s children to live in the Garden along with them. But when they failed, the temporal punishment went to everyone, and we are in the same jail cell as they are.”
A. All temporal punishment due sin is eliminated with baptism. Catechism

Then why are not people immediately beamed into the Garden of Eden upon receiving baptism? And then subject to only one rule?

A. God knew what would happen, but gave our first parents what was sufficient to not fall.

If it was sufficient for them not to fall, it would have overcome the imperfections they were created with. Despite this, they were still naive, prideful, stupid, or fearful. Whatever God gave them that you consider sufficient was insufficient to overcome the imperfections.

The buggy software crashed.

 

[Vico]

…

You wrote: That does not address my statement about free will"
A. No it does not however it is related. Those that do good acts without sanctifying grace receive no merit for them. If a baptized person has not free will then there is also no culpability for sin. From Catholic Encyclopedia on sin:

"Actual sin is committed by a free personal act of the individual will. "

and

"Contrary to the teaching of Baius (prop. 46, Denzinger-Bannwart, 1046) and the Reformers, a sin must be a voluntary act. Those actions alone are properly called human or moral actions which proceed from the human will deliberately acting with knowledge of the end for which it acts. Man differs from all irrational creatures in this precisely that he is master of his actions by virtue of his reason and free will (I-II:1:1). "

You wrote: “An imperfect adult, with many deficiencies, is not going to get grace if God knows he will reject the grace.” and “Whatever God gave them that you consider sufficient was insufficient to overcome the imperfections.”
A. If they cooperated with the given grace then it would be called efficacious grace rather than sufficient grace. The grace, nevertheless, is given. These are dogmas of faith on sufficient and efficacious grace posted before for you. If someone gives you a key and you do not use it, it cannot be said that the key was not given.

You wrote: "And that means that one is set up to fail. "
A. Catchism 412 But why did God not prevent the first man from sinning? St. Leo the Great responds, "Christ’s inexpressible grace gave us blessings better than those the demon’s envy had taken away."307 And St. Thomas Aquinas wrote, "There is nothing to prevent human nature’s being raised up to something greater, even after sin; God permits evil in order to draw forth some greater good. Thus St. Paul says, ‘Where sin increased, grace abounded all the more’; and the Exsultet sings, ‘O happy fault,. . . which gained for us so great a Redeemer!’"308

You wrote: “There was no choice of heaven for them at the time of death. It was only purgatory or hell, and since they had grace, they got purgatory.”
A. A person can attain freedom from attachment to sin at any time, it is not knowable in every case when it occurs. So here we are considering a baptized person with free will that is capable of either mortal or venial sin. You do not know if a person has any temporal punishment at the time of death, so do, some don’t. With the proper disposed (detachment always precedes a plenary indulgence), the plenary indulgence at the point of death may be obtained (concession 12).

You wrote: “if one is imperfect and have no choice at the time of death, how do they have a choice before?”
A. One with free will does. If there was such a person created that had absolutely no free will whatsoever, or ability to reason, then there can be no personal sin present and therefore no punishment due sin, eternal nor temporal.

You wrote: “Complete detachment does not mean “holding on to a small one” It means 100%. Perfection.”
A. Moral, yet other non-moral imperfections remain, such as psychological, imperfect understanding, physical.

You wrote: “Then why are not people immediately beamed into the Garden of Eden upon receiving baptism? And then subject to only one rule?”
A. The Saints will be in New Jerusalem with their glorified bodies. Baptism does not remove all temporal consequences Catechism
1263 By Baptism all sins are forgiven, original sin and all personal sins, as well as all punishment for sin.65 In those who have been reborn nothing remains that would impede their entry into the Kingdom of God, neither Adam’s sin, nor personal sin, nor the consequences of sin, the gravest of which is separation from God.

1264 Yet certain temporal consequences of sin remain in the baptized, such as suffering, illness, death, and such frailties inherent in life as weaknesses of character, and so on, as well as an inclination to sin that Tradition calls concupiscence, or metaphorically, “the tinder for sin” (fomes peccati); since concupiscence "is left for us to wrestle with, it cannot harm those who do not consent but manfully resist it by the grace of Jesus Christ."66 Indeed, "an athlete is not crowned unless he competes according to the rules."67

 

[fbl9]

chopped…

You wrote: “Then why are not people immediately beamed into the Garden of Eden upon receiving baptism? And then subject to only one rule?”
A. The Saints will be in New Jerusalem with their glorified bodies. Baptism does not remove all temporal consequences Catechism
1263 By Baptism all sins are forgiven, original sin and all personal sins, as well as all punishment for sin.65 In those who have been reborn nothing remains that would impede their entry into the Kingdom of God, neither Adam’s sin, nor personal sin, nor the consequences of sin, the gravest of which is separation from God.

1264 Yet certain temporal consequences of sin remain in the baptized, such as suffering, illness, death, and such frailties inherent in life as weaknesses of character, and so on, as well as an inclination to sin that Tradition calls concupiscence, or metaphorically, “the tinder for sin” (fomes peccati); since concupiscence "is left for us to wrestle with, it cannot harm those who do not consent but manfully resist it by the grace of Jesus Christ."66 Indeed, "an athlete is not crowned unless he competes according to the rules."67

Okay but why does baptism not remove all consequences?
Is it because if we went back to our state in the garden we would less than we are now. ie more like an animal knowing neither right nor wrong?

 

[BobCatholic]

You wrote: That does not address my statement about free will"
A. No it does not however it is related. Those that do good acts without sanctifying grace receive no merit for them. If a baptized person has not free will then there is also no culpability for sin. From Catholic Encyclopedia on sin:

OK, so please answer my statement about free will then. I’m not talking about merit or culpability, I’m talking about free will.

Who cares if we are culpable or gain merit if we are still held temporally responsible for actions done under no free will? Nobody cares about either of those if one is still being whipped in the same jail cell as Adam and Eve.

"Actual sin is committed by a free personal act of the individual will. "

But temporal punishment comes regardless of free will. Even if someone has no free will and no culpability, the temporal punishments still hit.

You wrote: “An imperfect adult, with many deficiencies, is not going to get grace if God knows he will reject the grace.” and “Whatever God gave them that you consider sufficient was insufficient to overcome the imperfections.”
A. If they cooperated with the given grace then it would be called efficacious grace rather than sufficient grace. The grace, nevertheless, is given. These are dogmas of faith on sufficient and efficacious grace posted before for you. If someone gives you a key and you do not use it, it cannot be said that the key was not given.

If someone gives me a key, and it does not unlock the lock that stands in the way of sanctification, did they give me something useful?

Grace that does not overcome imperfections is that bad key.

Imperfections rob us of free will.

You wrote: "And that means that one is set up to fail. "
A. Catchism 412 But why did God not prevent the first man from sinning? St. Leo the Great responds, "Christ’s inexpressible grace gave us blessings better than those the demon’s envy had taken away."307 And St. Thomas Aquinas wrote, "There is nothing to prevent human nature’s being raised up to something greater, even after sin; God permits evil in order to draw forth some greater good. Thus St. Paul says, ‘Where sin increased, grace abounded all the more’; and the Exsultet sings, ‘O happy fault,. . . which gained for us so great a Redeemer!’"308

The Catechism did not address this.

Why didn’t God create man perfect with zero imperfections? The serpent would try his tricks, and the man would have said “why should I listen to you when God is infinitely trustworthy? Go away liar!” and would have passed the test.

In addition, Christ’s inexpressible grace did not give us everything better. The demon took away the people’s ability to live in the Garden of Eden. Christ didn’t fix that. The demon took away our ability to have a personal relationship with God, where we could walk in the Garden with him and talk to him face to face and have an actual conversation. Sadly, that part is only reserved for the lucky few. It is exceedingly rare to find someone who can have a conversation with God.

You wrote: “There was no choice of heaven for them at the time of death. It was only purgatory or hell, and since they had grace, they got purgatory.”
A. A person can attain freedom from attachment to sin at any time,

Yes, then they become perfect. And bypass purgatory.

But my statement was about imperfect people. They have no choice, but purgatory or hell at the time of death. Heaven is NOT a choice for them at the time of death.

A. One with free will does. If there was such a person created that had absolutely no free will whatsoever, or ability to reason, then there can be no personal sin present and therefore no punishment due sin, eternal nor temporal.

Unfortunately, temporal punishment hits whether we are culpable or not. Remember, we are still in the jail cell that Adam and Eve were in.

You wrote: “Complete detachment does not mean “holding on to a small one” It means 100%. Perfection.”
A. Moral, yet other non-moral imperfections remain, such as psychological, imperfect understanding, physical.

True. And those rob people of free will, so even if they have moral perfection, it won’t last long.

You wrote: “Then why are not people immediately beamed into the Garden of Eden upon receiving baptism? And then subject to only one rule?”

Baptism does not remove all temporal consequences

Precisely.

Catchism: 412 But why did God not prevent the first man from sinning? St. Leo the Great responds,** “Christ’s inexpressible grace gave us blessings better than those the demon’s envy had taken away.”**

This part has been contradicted. Not by you, but by the fact that baptism does not remove all temporal punishments.

1264 Yet certain temporal consequences of sin remain in the baptized, such as suffering, illness, death, and such frailties inherent in life as weaknesses of character, and so on, as well as an inclination to sin that Tradition calls concupiscence, or metaphorically, “the tinder for sin” (fomes peccati); since concupiscence "is left for us to wrestle with, it cannot harm those who do not consent but manfully resist it by the grace of Jesus Christ."66 Indeed, "an athlete is not crowned unless he competes according to the rules."67

If it cannot harm someone who resists, then nobody would go to hell. But people do go to hell.

If one doesn’t have the grace of Christ, game over, they are dead meat.

Another reason why the blessings that Christ brings are not better than what the demon took away. Adam and Eve didn’t have concupiscence, we still do.

In addition, they didn’t have to wrestle with it. We do.

 

[Aloysium]

Okay but why does baptism not remove all consequences?
Is it because if we went back to our state in the garden we would less than we are now. ie more like an animal knowing neither right nor wrong?

You didn’t ask me, and Vico will give you the correct answer, but my immediate response was that it is not about us. We are on a journey to know God. My infirmities and failures have done far more for me in that cause than all that has gone right, which I failed to appreciate in their moments, and to which I felt entitled when I saw it lacking in others.

 

[Vico]

OK, so please answer my statement about free will then. I’m not talking about merit or culpability, I’m talking about free will.
Who cares if we are culpable or gain merit if we are still held temporally responsible for actions done under no free will? Nobody cares about either of those if one is still being whipped in the same jail cell as Adam and Eve.
But temporal punishment comes regardless of free will. Even if someone has no free will and no culpability, the temporal punishments still hit.
If someone gives me a key, and it does not unlock the lock that stands in the way of sanctification, did they give me something useful?
Grace that does not overcome imperfections is that bad key.
Imperfections rob us of free will.
The Catechism did not address this.
Why didn’t God create man perfect with zero imperfections? The serpent would try his tricks, and the man would have said “why should I listen to you when God is infinitely trustworthy? Go away liar!” and would have passed the test.
In addition, Christ’s inexpressible grace did not give us everything better. The demon took away the people’s ability to live in the Garden of Eden. Christ didn’t fix that. The demon took away our ability to have a personal relationship with God, where we could walk in the Garden with him and talk to him face to face and have an actual conversation. Sadly, that part is only reserved for the lucky few. It is exceedingly rare to find someone who can have a conversation with God.
Yes, then they become perfect. And bypass purgatory.
But my statement was about imperfect people. They have no choice, but purgatory or hell at the time of death. Heaven is NOT a choice for them at the time of death.
Unfortunately, temporal punishment hits whether we are culpable or not. Remember, we are still in the jail cell that Adam and Eve were in.
True. And those rob people of free will, so even if they have moral perfection, it won’t last long.
Precisely.
Catchism: 412 But why did God not prevent the first man from sinning? St. Leo the Great responds, “Christ’s inexpressible grace gave us blessings better than those the demon’s envy had taken away.”
This part has been contradicted. Not by you, but by the fact that baptism does not remove all temporal punishments.
If it cannot harm someone who resists, then nobody would go to hell. But people do go to hell.
If one doesn’t have the grace of Christ, game over, they are dead meat.
Another reason why the blessings that Christ brings are not better than what the demon took away. Adam and Eve didn’t have concupiscence, we still do.
In addition, they didn’t have to wrestle with it. We do.

Your focus is material not spiritual. Christians strive to be Christlike in their life, which involves suffering, as Jesus Christ said, they hated him so they will hate you too.

You wrote: “OK, so please answer my statement about free will then.”
A. God created mankind with free will by nature. Some individuals have brain or psychological damage or other factors effecting the operation of the will. We do not know the ways that God helps a particular person. Sometimes there are miraculous healings other times not.

You wrote: “If it cannot harm someone who resists, then nobody would go to hell. But people do go to hell.”
A. The Catechism did not say resists but consent: “those who do not consent but manfully resist it by the grace of Jesus Christ.” One can resist initially but then finally fail by giving consent. Those baptized, that do not consent, do not fail.

Your wrote: “If one doesn’t have the grace of Christ, game over, they are dead meat.”
A. Since we all die we are all dead meat. What is significant is the state of the soul which does not die. For that purpose God makes it possible through the gift of grace.

You wrote: “Who cares if we are culpable or gain merit if we are still held temporally responsible for actions done under no free will?”
A. The many people that have contrition care. Catechism
1451 … Among the penitent’s acts contrition occupies first place. Contrition is "sorrow of the soul and detestation for the sin committed, together with the resolution not to sin again."50
1453 The contrition called “imperfect” (or “attrition”) is also a gift of God, a prompting of the Holy Spirit. It is born of the consideration of sin’s ugliness or the fear of eternal damnation and the other penalties threatening the sinner (contrition of fear). …

You asked: “If someone gives me a key, and it does not unlock the lock that stands in the way of sanctification, did they give me something useful?”
A. The key in this case does unlock the lock if the key is used, so yes it is useful. The key is the gift of grace.

You wrote: “Another reason why the blessings that Christ brings are not better than what the demon took away.”
A. Adam and Eve were tempted but not forced to fall, it was through their free will. God expelled Adam and Eve, not a demon.