Is our free choice real

[fbl9]

Venial sins do no put a hole in the bucket nor do imperfections. Grace does not leak, if it does prove it with a quote.
Venial and imperfections can tip the bucket but never enough that the bucket spills out.

 

[BobCatholic]

Council of Trent, Chapter VII
799 Justification itself follows this disposition or preparation, which is not merely remission of sins [can. II], but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man through the voluntary reception of the grace and gifts, whereby an unjust man becomes a just man, and from being an enemy becomes a friend, that he may be “an heir according to hope of life everlasting” [Tit. 3:7].

You can see how there are various levels of grace. More grace, higher level. Imperfections and venial sins, less grace, lower level.

Justification is not needed for venial sins, through which one cannot become unjust.

Venial sins need to be forgiven. When sins are forgiven, grace is restored. Even if it is a few ounces.

Yes, you can’t get unjust with one or two venial sins. But let’s talk 20 big venial sins. Or 100. Or 1000.

A bunch of light items become a large mass. A bunch of venial sins become one big one and could wipe out all grace.

Remember the other excerpt from the Council of Trent, we have sufficient grace to remain without mortal sin (with state of sanctifying grace)

But grace does not overcome imperfections. So we still leak.

and venial sin does not make one unjust (does not loose state of sanctifying grace).

It is true that venial sin does not take away all grace. One mortal sin will do it.

However, nowhere does it say that venial sin or imperfections does not take away even a smidgen of grace. Please find me ONE citation. Just ONE.

Just because one doesn’t lose justification with one venial sin does not mean one is not losing ANY grace at all.

Also, mortal sin cannot be committed by one without free will consent.

Mortal sin can be done without doing anything at all. No choice there. Sins of omission are mortal. See Matthew 24.

[can. 20]; no one should make use of that rash statement forbidden under an anathema by the Fathers, that the commandments of God are impossible to observe for a man who is justified

Justified means having grace in the soul. A state of grace is not binary (full or zero). This is not the protestant either or, we are dealing with the Catholic both/and.

Grace is a continuum, from a little to a lot. One can have a little grace and still be justified. One can have a ton of grace and be justified.

Now, you interpret grace being 1 or 0, on or off, all or none. I don’t.

Unless you can find me a citation that says otherwise, that is official Catholic teaching, and not your interpretation of Catholic teaching, then what we have here is an area where the Church has not spoken. As a result, a diversity of opinion is permitted.

I have not denied any dogma or de fide teaching.

For although in this mortal life men however holy and just fall at times into at least light and daily sins, which are also called venial [can. 23], they do not for that reason cease to be just. [/INDENT]

Precisely. Same thing. One can have a little grace and be just or a lot of grace.

One can have 20,000 gallons of grace or a few fluid ounces of grace - such people are in a state of grace and justified.

Venial sins do no put a hole in the bucket nor do imperfections. Grace does not leak, if it does prove it with a quote.
Venial and imperfections can tip the bucket but never enough that the bucket spills out.

See my discussion above.

There is no Church dogma or de fide teaching that says venial sins or imperfections do not affect one’s level of grace. Zero. Nada.

 

[Vico]

…

Yes, you can’t get unjust with one or two venial sins. But let’s talk 20 big venial sins. Or 100. Or 1000. A bunch of light items become a large mass. A bunch of venial sins become one big one and could wipe out all grace.

…

Mortal sin can be done without doing anything at all. No choice there. Sins of omission are mortal. See Matthew 24.

Justified means having grace in the soul. A state of grace is not binary (full or zero). This is not the protestant either or, we are dealing with the Catholic both/and.

Now, you interpret grace being 1 or 0, on or off, all or none. …
.

It is the state of sanctifying grace that is present or not which is the subject of the dogma of faith.

You are into a different topic of amount of grace rather than state of sanctifying grace. I refer only to the state of sanctifying grace. It is not true that “A bunch of venial sins become one big one and could wipe out all grace.” That would mean that the state of sanctifying grace is lost, and that cannot happen through venial sin, as declared in the dogma quoted previously from the Council of Trent.

You wrote: “Mortal sin can be done without doing anything at all. No choice there. Sins of omission are mortal.” Yes, choice there. The omission must be a free will choice (deliberate) for a mortal sin, along with the other two factors.

 

[fbl9]

Y

See my discussion above.

There is no Church dogma or de fide teaching that says venial sins or imperfections do not affect one’s level of grace. Zero. Nada.

Am i to understand that you can not give a quote from the Church stating what you are implying here.

The Church does teach as quoted by Vico in an earlier post that venial sin does affect one’s level of charity. But does not affect one’s level of grace.

 

[BobCatholic]

It is the state of sanctifying grace that is present or not which is the subject of the dogma of faith.

Right. The state of grace can be in a huge quantity or a smaller quantity. That’s why we have various levels of heaven. That’s why we have various levels of sanctity - all are because the levels of grace are different.

You are into a different topic of amount of grace rather than state of sanctifying grace. I refer only to the state of sanctifying grace.

That was my point all along, and I think you didn’t pay attention. Venial sin reduces the amount of grace.

It is not true that “A bunch of venial sins become one big one and could wipe out all grace.”

The catechism quote you cited goes against what you said.

But do not despise these sins which we call “light”: if you take them for light when you weigh them, tremble when you count them. A number of light objects makes a great mass; a number of drops fills a river; a number of grains makes a heap.

You keep ignoring this catechism quote. Why? Because it shows my point.
Why should I tremble at something that does not affect my charity or grace level, as you say? I tremble because it DOES affect the level of grace.

That would mean that the state of sanctifying grace is lost, and that cannot happen through venial sin, as declared in the dogma quoted previously from the Council of Trent.

Trent said that ONE venial sin does not wipe out grace. That is true. I believe that.

However, hundreds or thousands CAN. We leak grace.

You wrote: “Mortal sin can be done without doing anything at all. No choice there. Sins of omission are mortal.” Yes, choice there. The omission must be a free will choice (deliberate) for a mortal sin, along with the other two factors.

OK, let’s test this.

I’m unemployed and a beggar asks for money. I say no and keep walking. According to Matthew 24, that’s a mortal sin.

I’m employed and a scam beggar (saw him with multiple different spiels, all lies) asks for money. I say no and keep walking. According to Matthew 24, that’s a mortal sin.

Did I have a choice in either part? No.

Am i to understand that you can not give a quote from the Church stating what you are implying here.

The Church does teach as quoted by Vico in an earlier post that venial sin does affect one’s level of charity. But does not affect one’s level of grace.

Am I to understand that you cannot give me a quote that says venial sin does not reduce the level of grace in the soul of a person? Or that imperfections do not affect the level of grace?

Not even one dogma? Not one de fide statement? It is clear the Church has not spoken on my belief. Instead of misinterpreting what I’m saying, why not actually read what I’m saying?

The Church DOES teach that there are various levels of sanctity. No matter how holy and in a state of grace you are, you CAN NEVER match the sanctity of mother Mary. While on earth, we cannot match the sanctity of the saints. Their level is above ours.

That means Mary and the saints have MORE GRACE than you and I. You probably have more grace than I do. I don’t presume to think I have more grace than anyone, I struggle with my imperfections (leaks).

All states of grace are not the same. There is a range of a ton of grace versus a little grace or no grace.

You see the Church’s teachings as grace being a range between 1 and 0. State of grace or no state of grace.

I see a range of grace between Mother Mary’s level of grace and no grace. As long as one has grace (regardless of the level) they are in a state of grace. So my belief fits nicely in the Church’s beliefs and no dogma or de fide statement was violated.

Since the Church has not spoken on this issue, that means we are at liberty to debate and hold different opinions without violating dogmas or de fide statements.

 

[Vico]

Right. The state of grace can be in a huge quantity or a smaller quantity. That’s why we have various levels of heaven. That’s why we have various levels of sanctity - all are because the levels of grace are different.
That was my point all along, and I think you didn’t pay attention. Venial sin reduces the amount of grace.
The catechism quote you cited goes against what you said.
But do not despise these sins which we call “light”: if you take them for light when you weigh them, tremble when you count them. A number of light objects makes a great mass; a number of drops fills a river; a number of grains makes a heap.
You keep ignoring this catechism quote. Why? Because it shows my point.
Why should I tremble at something that does not affect my charity or grace level, as you say? I tremble because it DOES affect the level of grace.
Trent said that ONE venial sin does not wipe out grace. That is true. I believe that.
However, hundreds or thousands CAN. We leak grace.
OK, let’s test this.
I’m unemployed and a beggar asks for money. I say no and keep walking. According to Matthew 24, that’s a mortal sin.
I’m employed and a scam beggar (saw him with multiple different spiels, all lies) asks for money. I say no and keep walking. According to Matthew 24, that’s a mortal sin.
Did I have a choice in either part? No.
Am I to understand that you cannot give me a quote that says venial sin does not reduce the level of grace in the soul of a person? Or that imperfections do not affect the level of grace?
Not even one dogma? Not one de fide statement? It is clear the Church has not spoken on my belief. Instead of misinterpreting what I’m saying, why not actually read what I’m saying?
The Church DOES teach that there are various levels of sanctity. No matter how holy and in a state of grace you are, you CAN NEVER match the sanctity of mother Mary. While on earth, we cannot match the sanctity of the saints. Their level is above ours.
That means Mary and the saints have MORE GRACE than you and I. You probably have more grace than I do. I don’t presume to think I have more grace than anyone, I struggle with my imperfections (leaks).
All states of grace are not the same. There is a range of a ton of grace versus a little grace or no grace.
You see the Church’s teachings as grace being a range between 1 and 0. State of grace or no state of grace.
I see a range of grace between Mother Mary’s level of grace and no grace. As long as one has grace (regardless of the level) they are in a state of grace. So my belief fits nicely in the Church’s beliefs and no dogma or de fide statement was violated.
Since the Church has not spoken on this issue, that means we are at liberty to debate and hold different opinions without violating dogmas or de fide statements.

This is incorrect: “The state of grace can be in a huge quantity or a smaller quantity.” A state is not a quantity.

The dogma states there is no possibility of becoming unjust through venial sin. As you read in the Catechism. One that does not repent of venial sin does not loose the state of sanctifying grace, but is disposed to “little by little to commit mortal sin. However venial sin does not break the covenant with God.” – CCC 1863

2000 Sanctifying grace is an habitual gift, a stable and supernatural disposition that perfects the soul itself to enable it to live with God, to act by his love. Habitual grace, the permanent disposition to live and act in keeping with God’s call, is distinguished from actual graces which refer to God’s interventions, whether at the beginning of conversion or in the course of the work of sanctification.

1861 Mortal sin is a radical possibility of human freedom, as is love itself. It results in the loss of charity and the privation of sanctifying grace, that is, of the state of grace. If it is not redeemed by repentance and God’s forgiveness, it causes exclusion from Christ’s kingdom and the eternal death of hell, for our freedom has the power to make choices for ever, with no turning back. However, although we can judge that an act is in itself a grave offense, we must entrust judgment of persons to the justice and mercy of God.

1863 … Deliberate and unrepented venial sin disposes us little by little to commit mortal sin. However venial sin does not break the covenant with God. … “Venial sin does not deprive the sinner of sanctifying grace, friendship with God, charity, and consequently eternal happiness.” …

 

[BobCatholic]

This is incorrect: “The state of grace can be in a huge quantity or a smaller quantity.” A state is not a quantity.

A state is a quantity.

Are you in a state of bankruptcy? If you owe $50,000 more than your assets or $1 million more than your assets, either way, you’re in a state of bankruptcy. You’re just in a worse condition in the latter than the former.

The dogma states there is no possibility of becoming unjust through venial sin.

Correct. One venial sin won’t do it. 2000 might. 20,000 might.

but is disposed to "little by little to commit mortal sin.

Which means that they’re more and more likely to do it. In other words, the amount of grace they have in their soul goes down and down. Exactly as I said.

privation of sanctifying grace, that is, of the state of grace.

Correct. 1 mortal sin means all grace is gone. The same thing can happen with a lot of venial sins.

Vico, please answer me this question.

Do you have the same amount of grace in your soul that the Blessed Virgin Mary has?
Do you have the same amount of grace in your soul that the saints in heaven have?

If you died right now would you go to heaven or purgatory?

If purgatory, that’s proof you have less grace. Grace is a continuum.

If you did go to heaven, do you go to the highest level or the 7th heaven or the 5th heaven or the lowest level? The fact that there are levels of heaven shows grace is a continuum.

The state of grace is a continuum, not a binary thing 1 or 0.

 

[Vico]

A state is a quantity.

Are you in a state of bankruptcy? If you owe $50,000 more than your assets or $1 million more than your assets, either way, you’re in a state of bankruptcy. You’re just in a worse condition in the latter than the former.

Correct. One venial sin won’t do it. 2000 might. 20,000 might.

Which means that they’re more and more likely to do it. In other words, the amount of grace they have in their soul goes down and down. Exactly as I said.

Correct. 1 mortal sin means all grace is gone. The same thing can happen with a lot of venial sins.

Vico, please answer me this question.

Do you have the same amount of grace in your soul that the Blessed Virgin Mary has?
Do you have the same amount of grace in your soul that the saints in heaven have?

If you died right now would you go to heaven or purgatory?

If purgatory, that’s proof you have less grace. Grace is a continuum.

If you did go to heaven, do you go to the highest level or the 7th heaven or the 5th heaven or the lowest level? The fact that there are levels of heaven shows grace is a continuum.

The state of grace is a continuum, not a binary thing 1 or 0.

I will answer tangential questions once the dogma is understood.

What you believe is not what the Catholic Church is teaching dogmatically.

But does venial sin, without extinguishing grace, nevertheless diminish it, just as good works give an increase of grace? Denys the Carthusian (d. 1471) was of the opinion that it does, though St. Thomas rejects it (II-II:24:10). A gradual decrease of grace would only be possible on the supposition that either a definite number of venial sins amounted to a mortal sin, or that the supply of grace might be diminished, grade by grade, down to ultimate extinction. The first hypothesis is contrary to the nature of venial sin; the second leads to the heretical view that grace may be lost without the commission of mortal sin.

Pohle, J. (1909). Sanctifying Grace. In The Catholic Encyclopedia. New York: Robert Appleton Company. newadvent.org/cathen/06701a.htm

Ecclesiastical approbation. Nihil Obstat. September 1, 1909. Remy Lafort, Censor. Imprimatur. +John M. Farley, Archbishop of New York

 

[BobCatholic]

I will answer tangential questions once the dogma is understood.

What you believe is not what the Catholic Church is teaching dogmatically.

I don’t see a Catechism citation, or council document. Just a citation of St. Thomas Aquinas.

But does venial sin, without extinguishing grace, nevertheless diminish it, just as good works give an increase of grace? Denys the Carthusian (d. 1471) was of the opinion that it does, though St. Thomas rejects it (II-II:24:10).

Is everything that St. Thomas Aquinas writes Church dogma? Can I get a statement from the Magisterium (Catechism? Council document? other document?) that says this?

There are plenty of saints who wrote opinions, not accepted by the Catholic Church. They were saintly men and women, but not infallible in every stroke of the pen.

A gradual decrease of grace would only be possible on the supposition that either a definite number of venial sins amounted to a mortal sin, or that the supply of grace might be diminished, grade by grade, down to ultimate extinction. The first hypothesis is contrary to the nature of venial sin;

How is it contrary to the nature of venial sin?

One cut does not drain all the blood from a human, but 1,000 cuts could easily kill someone and drain all the blood. In the same way, venial sins are cuts.

the second leads to the heretical view that grace may be lost without the commission of mortal sin.

If grace were measured in units, and a full bucket of grace is 1000 units, and each venial sin is one unit, then 1000 venial sins = 1 mortal sin. For another person, a full bucket of grace is 1500 units, or another 20,000 units. In such case, the amounts are adjusted accordingly.

So, if what I’m saying is true, then many venial sins are a mortal sin. I agree that grace may not be lost without commission of mortal sin, but when one commits a whole bunch of them, that is equivalent to a mortal sin,

In effect, one can go mortal sinning multiple ways.

 

[Vico]

I don’t see a Catechism citation, or council document. Just a citation of St. Thomas Aquinas.
Is everything that St. Thomas Aquinas writes Church dogma? Can I get a statement from the Magisterium (Catechism? Council document? other document?) that says this?
There are plenty of saints who wrote opinions, not accepted by the Catholic Church. They were saintly men and women, but not infallible in every stroke of the pen.
How is it contrary to the nature of venial sin?
One cut does not drain all the blood from a human, but 1,000 cuts could easily kill someone and drain all the blood. In the same way, venial sins are cuts.
If grace were measured in units, and a full bucket of grace is 1000 units, and each venial sin is one unit, then 1000 venial sins = 1 mortal sin. For another person, a full bucket of grace is 1500 units, or another 20,000 units. In such case, the amounts are adjusted accordingly.
So, if what I’m saying is true, then many venial sins are a mortal sin. I agree that grace may not be lost without commission of mortal sin, but when one commits a whole bunch of them, that is equivalent to a mortal sin,
In effect, one can go mortal sinning multiple ways.

No venial sins do not add up to a mortal sin, no matter how many, and this is a dogma of faith.

You already got the Trent citation several posts earlier:

Session VI, Chapter XI On keeping the Commandments, and on the necessity and possibility thereof., no loss of justice by venial sins.
For, although, during this mortal life, men, how holy and just soever, at times fall into at least light and daily sins, which are also called venial, not therefore do they cease to be just.

It has to do with charity and gravity.

Catechism 1855

“Mortal sin destroys charity in the heart of man by a grave violation of God’s law”

“Venial sin allows charity to subsist”

Catechism 1863 … “Venial sin does not deprive the sinner of sanctifying grace, friendship with God, charity, and consequently eternal happiness.” …

You also have from the Catholic Encyclopedia page referenced before:

“The true nature of sin as it is contrary to the eternal law, repugnant namely to the primary end of the law, is found only in mortal sin.”

O’Neil, A.C. (1912). Sin. In The Catholic Encyclopedia. New York: Robert Appleton Company. newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm

 

[BobCatholic]

No venial sins do not add up to a mortal sin, no matter how many, and this is a dogma of faith.

Then we have a contradiction in the faith.

If venial sins do NOT affect the level of grace in one’s soul, then why are there various levels of sanctity?

You and I do not have as much grace as the saints. And most definitely not as much as Mother Mary.

Those in heaven can’t sin because they don’t want to. But we on earth still can. We have imperfections and venially sin.

And let’s talk about the souls in purgatory, who also don’t have the same level of grace as the saints in heaven. The only difference is they have imperfections and venial sins on their souls. Those reduced their grace.

 

[Vico]

Then we have a contradiction in the faith.
If venial sins do NOT affect the level of grace in one’s soul, then why are there various levels of sanctity?You and I do not have as much grace as the saints. And most definitely not as much as Mother Mary.
Those in heaven can’t sin because they don’t want to. But we on earth still can. We have imperfections and venially sin.
And let’s talk about the souls in purgatory, who also don’t have the same level of grace as the saints in heaven. The only difference is they have imperfections and venial sins on their souls. Those reduced their grace.

This is the teaching of the Catholic Church:

1. Council of Trent, Session VI, XI
"For, although, during this mortal life, men, how holy and just soever, at times fall into at least light and daily sins, which are also called venial, not therefore do they cease to be just. "

2. Catholic Answers:
“Venial sins don’t destroy supernatural life, and they don’t even lessen it.”

catholic.com/tract/grace-what-it-is-and-what-it-does

NIHIL OBSTAT: I have concluded that the materials presented in this work are free of doctrinal or moral errors. Bernadeane Carr, STL, Censor Librorum, August 10, 2004

IMPRIMATUR: In accord with 1983 CIC 827 permission to publish this work is hereby granted.
+Robert H. Brom, Bishop of San Diego, August 10, 2004

3. Catholic Encyclopedia

“Venial sin does not deprive the soul of sanctifying grace, or diminish it.”

O’Neil, A.C. (1912). Sin. In The Catholic Encyclopedia. New York: Robert Appleton Company. newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm

Ecclesiastical approbation. Nihil Obstat. July 1, 1912. Remy Lafort, S.T.D., Censor. Imprimatur. +John Cardinal Farley, Archbishop of New York

Temporal Punishment

The souls in purgatory are just and have the state of sanctifying grace.

Catechism 1472 … "purification frees one from what is called the “temporal punishment” of sin. " … Catechism 1473 … “the Christian must strive to accept this temporal punishment of sin as a grace.” …

The good works of one that is justified (and that departs in grace) results in an increase of both grace and glory
Council of Trent, CANON XXXII. * If any one saith, that the good works of one that is justified are in such manner the gifts of God, as that they are not also the good merits of him that is justified; * or, that the said justified, by the good works which he performs through the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ, whose living member he is, does not truly merit increase of grace, eternal life, and the attainment of that eternal life, if so be, however, that he depart in grace, and also an increase of glory;
let him be anathema.

 

[BobCatholic]

This is the teaching of the Catholic Church:

1. Council of Trent, Session VI, XI
"For, although, during this mortal life, men, how holy and just soever, at times fall into at least light and daily sins, which are also called venial, not therefore do they cease to be just. "

We’re going around in circles. Back to this.

Pay attention to “at least” - showing that the smallest kinds of sins - light and daily sins.

One of them won’t take you out of the state of grace. But eventually a huge load can.

2. Catholic Answers:
“Venial sins don’t destroy supernatural life, and they don’t even lessen it.”

catholic.com/tract/grace-what-it-is-and-what-it-does

NIHIL OBSTAT: I have concluded that the materials presented in this work are free of doctrinal or moral errors. Bernadeane Carr, STL, Censor Librorum, August 10, 2004

The imprimatur indicates this is free of doctrinal or moral error.

The Catholic Church has not said anywhere, that venial sins do not lower one’s level of grace. No dogma. No de fide statements. So the Catholic Answers opinion is one acceptable opinion. My opinion is also acceptable since it is not contrary to the Catholic faith.

The souls in purgatory are just and have the state of sanctifying grace.
​

Catechism 1472 … "purification frees one from what is called the “temporal punishment” of sin. " … Catechism 1473 … “the Christian must strive to accept this temporal punishment of sin as a grace.” …

Precisely. They have to be temporally punished because they are missing grace. They are in a state of grace, but they lost some of it, and this is a grace so therefore grace must be added back to the soul.

They lost some of their grace due to imperfections and venial sins. Thus they go to purgatory.

If venial sin did not decrease grace, PURGATORY WOULD NOT EXIST. We’d be in a state of grace and walk through the gates of heaven directly without any need for purgatory.

The good works of one that is justified (and that departs in grace) results in an increase of both grace and glory

So, if I do good deeds, I can INCREASE grace and glory.

What about the other way around?

If good deeds increase grace, why can’t bad deeds decrease grace? Clearly one mortal sin is enough to decrease grace to zero. And venial sins decrease grace.​

 

[Vico]

We’re going around in circles. Back to this.

Pay attention to “at least” - showing that the smallest kinds of sins - light and daily sins.

One of them won’t take you out of the state of grace. But eventually a huge load can.

The imprimatur indicates this is free of doctrinal or moral error.

The Catholic Church has not said anywhere, that venial sins do not lower one’s level of grace. No dogma. No de fide statements. So the Catholic Answers opinion is one acceptable opinion. My opinion is also acceptable since it is not contrary to the Catholic faith.

Precisely. They have to be temporally punished because they are missing grace. They are in a state of grace, but they lost some of it, and this is a grace so therefore grace must be added back to the soul.

They lost some of their grace due to imperfections and venial sins. Thus they go to purgatory.

If venial sin did not decrease grace, PURGATORY WOULD NOT EXIST. We’d be in a state of grace and walk through the gates of heaven directly without any need for purgatory.

So, if I do good deeds, I can INCREASE grace and glory.

What about the other way around?

If good deeds increase grace, why can’t bad deeds decrease grace? Clearly one mortal sin is enough to decrease grace to zero. And venial sins decrease grace.

No the grace is not cumulative but rather given with each act and can be rejected with each act. A million venial sins do not make one unjust – the state of sanctifying grace is not lost or diminished – “venial sin allows charity to subsist”.

Catechism 1863 shows how we oppose the help given with our disposition, but that is not due to lack of sanctifying grace:
“Deliberate and unrepented venial sin disposes us little by little to commit mortal sin. However venial sin does not set us in direct opposition to the will and friendship of God”

No, souls do not have to be temporally punished because they are missing grace.
The attachment to sin is what we receive temporal punishment for, to eliminate it. If we reject the grace given due to attachment then we receive less help, but the help is still given us. Dogmas of faith that can help in understanding this:

• Actual Grace internally and directly enlightens the understanding and strengthens the will. (Sent. certa.)
• There is a supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul, which precedes the free act of the will. (De fide.)
• There is a supernatural influence of God in the faculties of the soul which coincides in time with man’s free act of will. (De fide.)

Merit is increased only if in a state of sanctifying grace. When the state of sanctifying grace is lost so is the merit. When the state of sanctifying grace is later received, after being list by mortal sin, the merit is restored that was one had before. All merit comes from the infinite merits of Christ. Catechism 2008 … Man’s merit, moreover, itself is due to God, for his good actions proceed in Christ, from the predispositions and assistance given by the Holy Spirit.

 

[CrystalMayner66]

Can the choice between ecstasy (Heaven) and torment (Hell) be considered a real free choice. Is it not more “do it my way or else”.
I hope this is the right forum.
Hope all is well for everyone.

I have also thought of this. It seems like coerced choice to me.

 

[Vico]

I have also thought of this. It seems like coerced choice to me.

To be in heaven with just good is not much motivation for those that do not like good.

Luke 16
29 And Abraham said to him: They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30 But he said: No, father Abraham: but if one went to them from the dead, they will do penance. 31 And he said to him: If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they believe, if one rise again from the dead.

 

[rinnie]

Can the choice between ecstasy (Heaven) and torment (Hell) be considered a real free choice. Is it not more “do it my way or else”.
I hope this is the right forum.
Hope all is well for everyone.

What’s the difference. Where does God saying do as I say and follow me and live with me forever, or do as you choose and refuse to follow me forever take away our free will of choice?

Maybe because you do not understand the true meaning of heaven and hell. Heaven is living with God forever which is eternal happiness with him.

And hell is the torment of not having the happiness and love of God.

How does choosing happiness GOD or not choosing God which is emptyness and hell take away our choice?

 

[rinnie]

I have also thought of this. It seems like coerced choice to me.

Why? If you have free will how is it coerced? Why would you want God and his love and goodness if you strive for evil and hate?

If you love God you love goodness, and you want to also be like him. He shows you how and helps you to acquire.

If you hate God you want nothing to do with him or his goodness or Love. And you live you life the opposite of what he teaches.

God tells you if you love me you will keep my word. If you hate me you will reject it. How is that coerced? Why would someone who rejects God here, want to live with him in eternity?

 

[BobCatholic]

No the grace is not cumulative but rather given with each act and can be rejected with each act. A million venial sins do not make one unjust – the state of sanctifying grace is not lost or diminished – “venial sin allows charity to subsist”.

Then explain how people can have varying levels of grace.

Why, if one is in a state of grace, they must go through purgatory? But others who are in a state of grace, they go directly to heaven?

The answer is: They have different levels of grace. Those levels exist because one is more imperfect than the other. Imperfections reduce grace!

Catechism 1863 shows how we oppose the help given with our disposition, but that is not due to lack of sanctifying grace:
“Deliberate and unrepented venial sin disposes us little by little to commit mortal sin. However venial sin does not set us in direct opposition to the will and friendship of God”

One venial sin doesn’t. 10,000 will.

No, souls do not have to be temporally punished because they are missing grace.
The attachment to sin is what we receive temporal punishment for, to eliminate it.

Attachment to sin is an imperfection, so you seem to agree with me that imperfections reduce grace.

If we reject the grace given due to attachment then we receive less help,

If we are imperfect, and due to that imperfection, one rejects grace, they receive less grace.

So, how do we have free will if we are imperfect and that imperfection is enough to get reduced levels of grace? I have no choice to go to the highest level of heaven, because I’m too imperfect. No matter if I’m in a state of grace, my imperfections (which God created in me) stand in the way of ever getting closer to God.

God says “I love you and want to be with you” then creates people so imperfect that they can’t get closer to them, because they can never get the higher levels of grace.

Free will is at best a cruel joke or nonexistent at worst.

 

[Vico]

Then explain how people can have varying levels of grace.

Why, if one is in a state of grace, they must go through purgatory? But others who are in a state of grace, they go directly to heaven?

The answer is: They have different levels of grace. Those levels exist because one is more imperfect than the other. Imperfections reduce grace!

One venial sin doesn’t. 10,000 will.

Attachment to sin is an imperfection, so you seem to agree with me that imperfections reduce grace.

If we are imperfect, and due to that imperfection, one rejects grace, they receive less grace.

So, how do we have free will if we are imperfect and that imperfection is enough to get reduced levels of grace? I have no choice to go to the highest level of heaven, because I’m too imperfect. No matter if I’m in a state of grace, my imperfections (which God created in me) stand in the way of ever getting closer to God.

God says “I love you and want to be with you” then creates people so imperfect that they can’t get closer to them, because they can never get the higher levels of grace.

Free will is at best a cruel joke or nonexistent at worst.

As the Church dogma states unforgiven mortal sin has an eternal effect but venial sin does not. No number of venial sins will cause one to loose the state of sanctifying grace. To loose that state requires a sinful act with the three factors for mortal sin present.

Those that die is a state of sanctifying grace go to heaven, and may transition through purgatory first due to the need for temporal punishments to remove the attachments the arose from sins that were not already removed through penance and indulgences before death. Prayers from others will help those in purgatory. Even those with great merit (which results in greater Beatific Vision and glory) may still need purgatory.

When a person does not repent of intentional venial sins the disposition can lead to not receiving actual graces in the future because the persons attitude to not utilize that grace. The actual grace is given as needed, not stored up.

St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologicae Q7 Of The Grace Of Christ As An Individual Man A12 Whether the grace of Christ could increase?
Reply to Objection 3: Anyone may increase in wisdom and grace in two ways. First inasmuch as the very habits of wisdom and grace are increased; and in this way Christ did not increase. Secondly, as regards the effects, i. e. inasmuch as they do wiser and greater works; and in this way Christ increased in wisdom and grace even as in age, since in the course of time He did more perfect works, to prove Himself true man, both in the things of God, and in the things of man.

Catechism

2000 Sanctifying grace is an habitual gift, a stable and supernatural disposition that perfects the soul itself to enable it to live with God, to act by his love. Habitual grace, the permanent disposition to live and act in keeping with God’s call, is distinguished from actual graces which refer to God’s interventions, whether at the beginning of conversion or in the course of the work of sanctification.

The punishments of sin

1472 To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the “eternal punishment” of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the “temporal punishment” of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.83