Is our free choice real

[Vico]

You didn’t answer my question.

How are the levels of grace, different from someone going directly to heaven versus someone who goes into purgatory?

I argue there are different levels of grace.

We are saved by grace alone. Not because we worked our way into heaven without the aid of grace.

So if we get into heaven, we get there by God’s grace alone.

But something is preventing us from getting into heaven directly, that is a lack of grace.

Correct, temporal punishment shows that there is missing grace.

So how is this not a temporary reduction in grace?

You are right in saying venial sins have no eternal consequences, and I don’t argue against that.

What I do argue against is that venial sins do not affect the level of grace. The existence of purgatory is a loud testimony that grace has different levels in people.

Grace is the supernatural gift that God and it is that grace that gets us, with our cooperation, into purgatory if needed and into heaven. Grace is given with each act of will. There is no such “temporary reduction of grace” that you speak of. In fact the Catechism states “While patiently bearing sufferings and trials of all kinds and, when the day comes, serenely facing death, the Christian must strive to accept this temporal punishment of sin as a grace.”.

What is needed to go immediately to heaven a the particular judgment is no remaining attachment to sin. The only need for purgatory is to remove the attachments of sin which are what the temporal punishment is for. You can understand how a plenary indulgence which requires detachment from all sins even venial, brings that state, and allow on to immediately proceed to heaven.

 

[BobCatholic]

Grace is the supernatural gift that God and it is that grace that gets us, with our cooperation, into purgatory if needed and into heaven.

Correct.

Now, what is the purgatory resident missing that the heavenly resident not missing?

The difference is level of grace. The ones in purgatory have less grace than those in heaven.

There is no such “temporary reduction of grace” that you speak of.

If this is true, then purgatory cannot exist. But since purgatory does exist, your statement is not true.

In fact the Catechism states “While patiently bearing sufferings and trials of all kinds and, when the day comes, serenely facing death, the Christian must strive to accept this temporal punishment of sin as a grace.”.

How is it grace? Punishment comes from justice, not mercy. Grace and mercy go hand in hand.

What is needed to go immediately to heaven a the particular judgment is no remaining attachment to sin. The only need for purgatory is to remove the attachments of sin which are what the temporal punishment is for. You can understand how a plenary indulgence which requires detachment from all sins even venial, brings that state, and allow on to immediately proceed to heaven.

Attachment to sin is an imperfection. It is something that reduces grace because it keeps one from going to heaven directly.

 

[laylow]

Correct.

Now, what is the purgatory resident missing that the heavenly resident not missing?

The difference is level of grace. The ones in purgatory have less grace than those in heaven.

If this is true, then purgatory cannot exist. But since purgatory does exist, your statement is not true.

How is it grace? Punishment comes from justice, not mercy. Grace and mercy go hand in hand.

Attachment to sin is an imperfection. It is something that reduces grace because it keeps one from going to heaven directly.

Augustine taught predestination…chosen ones are given more grace.

 

[BobCatholic]

Augustine taught predestination…chosen ones are given more grace.

So how do I get to be one of the chosen ones who get more grace? Oh wait, that’s not my choice.

Another example of how our free will is reduced.

 

[laylow]

So how do I get to be one of the chosen ones who get more grace? Oh wait, that’s not my choice.

Another example of how our free will is reduced.

Yep, that’s life, at least my life.

 

[James248]

So how do I get to be one of the chosen ones who get more grace? Oh wait, that’s not my choice.

Another example of how our free will is reduced.

Read ALL of Augustine.

He says, “God who made you without you will not save you without you.” If one is a member of the elect, he responds to God’s gift of grace.

 

[Vico]

Correct.
Now, what is the purgatory resident missing that the heavenly resident not missing?
The difference is level of grace. The ones in purgatory have less grace than those in heaven.
If this is true, then purgatory cannot exist. But since purgatory does exist, your statement is not true.
How is it grace? Punishment comes from justice, not mercy. Grace and mercy go hand in hand.
Attachment to sin is an imperfection. It is something that reduces grace because it keeps one from going to heaven directly.

What determines purgatory vs heaven, at the immediate judgment, is any remaining attachment to sin.

Summa Theologiae > Third Part > Question 87 The remission of venial sin
Article 2. Whether infusion of grace is necessary for the remission of venial sins?

On the contrary, The advent of venial sin neither destroys nor diminishes grace, as stated in the II-II:24:10. Therefore, in like manner, an infusion of grace is not necessary in order to remove venial sin.
I answer that, Each thing is removed by its contrary. But venial sin is not contrary to habitual grace or charity, but hampers its act, through man being too much attached to a created good, albeit not in opposition to God, as stated in I-II:88:1; II-II:24:10. Therefore, in order that venial sin be removed, it is not necessary that habitual grace be infused, but a movement of grace or charity suffices for its forgiveness.

Nevertheless, since in those who have the use of free-will (in whom alone can there be venial sins), there can be no infusion of grace without an actual movement of the free-will towards God and against sin, consequently whenever grace is infused anew, venial sins are forgiven.

St. Thomas Aquinas, De Malo, Q[7], A[2], ad 9,17:
“Guilt is not remitted by punishment, but venial sin as to its guilt is remitted in Purgatory by virtue of grace, not only as existing in the habit, but also as proceeding to the act of charity in detestation of venial sin.”

 

[BobCatholic]

Read ALL of Augustine.

He says, “God who made you without you will not save you without you.” If one is a member of the elect, he responds to God’s gift of grace.

Well, I’m trying my best and there’s no getting closer to him. I don’t have a choice.

What determines purgatory vs heaven, at the immediate judgment, is any remaining attachment to sin.

Attachment to sin is an imperfection.

This imperfection causes a difference in grace level. Those in heaven have more grace than those in purgatory.

The difference between those two levels is - imperfection, which is a reduction in grace.

St. Thomas Aquinas, De Malo, Q[7], A[2], ad 9,17:
“Guilt is not remitted by punishment, but venial sin as to its guilt is remitted in Purgatory by virtue of grace, not only as existing in the habit, but also as proceeding to the act of charity in detestation of venial sin.”

You are painting a contradiction, or St. Thomas contradicts himself.

If guilt for venial sin is remitted in purgatory, and purgatory is temporal punishment for sin, there’s a contradiction - you said earlier that venial sin disappears and is not needed to be forgiven. Here it is not disappearing and must be remitted.

In addition, another contradiction:

" an infusion of grace is not necessary in order to remove venial sin."

and

" but venial sin as to its guilt is remitted in Purgatory by virtue of grace"

So in one he says no grace is needed to remove venial sins, but in the other he says grace is needed.

Since he’s on both sides of the issue here, I’ll go with the part that says that grace is needed and that proves my point of the differing levels of grace.

 

[Vico]

Well, I’m trying my best and there’s no getting closer to him. I don’t have a choice.

Attachment to sin is an imperfection.

This imperfection causes a difference in grace level. Those in heaven have more grace than those in purgatory.

The difference between those two levels is - imperfection, which is a reduction in grace.

You are painting a contradiction, or St. Thomas contradicts himself. Grace “existing in the habit” is called the state of sanctifying grace. I think you need to understand the meanings used by the Church.

If guilt for venial sin is remitted in purgatory, and purgatory is temporal punishment for sin, there’s a contradiction - you said earlier that venial sin disappears and is not needed to be forgiven. Here it is not disappearing and must be remitted.

In addition, another contradiction:

" an infusion of grace is not necessary in order to remove venial sin."

and

" but venial sin as to its guilt is remitted in Purgatory by virtue of grace"

So in one he says no grace is needed to remove venial sins, but in the other he says grace is needed.

Since he’s on both sides of the issue here, I’ll go with the part that says that grace is needed and that proves my point of the differing levels of grace.

Not all imperfection is sin. I am not discussing level with you, that topic is not relevant. What is relevant is the state of sanctifying grace and attachments to sin.

Modern Catholic Dictionary

HABITUAL GRACE. Constant supernatural quality of the soul which sanctifies a person inherently and makes him or her just and pleasing to God. Also called sanctifying grace or justifying grace.

SANCTIFYING GRACE. The supernatural state of being infused by God, which permanently inheres in the soul. It is a vital principle of the supernatural life, as the rational soul is the vital principle of a human being’s natural life. It is not a substance but a real quality that becomes part of the soul substance. Although commonly associated with the possession of the virtue of charity, sanctifying grace is yet distinct from this virtue. Charity, rather, belongs to the will, whereas sanctifying grace belongs to the whole soul, mind, will, and affections. It is called sanctifying grace because it makes holy those who possess the gift by giving them a participation in the divine life. It is zoē (life), which Christ taught that he has in common with the Father and which those who are in the state of grace share.

JUSTIFYING GRACE. The grace by which a person is restored to God’s friendship, either for the first time, as in baptism, or after baptism, as in the sacrament of penance.

There is no change in the state of sanctifying grace due to venial sin or attachment to sins. What occurs is that while having a habitual state of grace there is temporal punishment that remains from mortal and venial sins, and that must be eliminated, for heaven, which may occurs before death or after death. Those in purgatory or heaven both have a state of sanctifying grace.

1. What I posted before was “Venial sins are forgiven at death since they have no eternal consequences,”. I did not say that venial sin disappears and is not needed to be forgiven, like you claimed.
2. There is no contradiction here:

St. Thomas Aquinas, De Malo, Q[7], A[2], ad 9,17:
“Guilt is not remitted by punishment, but venial sin as to its guilt is remitted in Purgatory by virtue of grace, not only as existing in the habit, but also as proceeding to the act of charity in detestation of venial sin.”

There is a difference between a gift (grace) and punishment. “Guilt is not remitted by punishment” because “guilt is remitted … by virtue of grace”.

You miss that there the two effects from sin: guilt and temporal punishment. The guilt is forgiven but temporal punishment may remain. For mortal sin the guilt is eternal and there is also temporal punishment. Venial sin does not deprive the soul of sanctifying grace, or even diminish it, and so does not need the grace of absolution, and has not eternal effect, only temporal. Venial sins are remitted by prayer, contrition, fervent communion, and other pious works.

 

[BobCatholic]

Not all imperfection is sin.

Imperfections make it more likely people will sin. It makes it easier to fall. It tilts the scales in the favor of the devil. Why does God create us imperfect?

I am not discussing level with you, that topic is not relevant.

It is MOST relevant!

What is the difference between someone in purgatory versus heaven? The one in purgatory is MISSING SOMETHING. It is grace they’re missing. They have a lower level of grace.

What is the difference someone in the fifth heaven versus seventh heaven? Again, levels of grace.

What is relevant is the state of sanctifying grace and attachments to sin.

Attachment to things = imperfection = must be punished temporally. No mercy. Just suffer, mere mortal.

There is no change in the state of sanctifying grace due to venial sin or attachment to sins.

If that were true, purgatory would not exist. Everyone would go straight to heaven if they’re in a state of grace.

What occurs is that while having a habitual state of grace there is temporal punishment that remains from mortal and venial sins, and that must be eliminated, for heaven, which may occurs before death or after death.

Yes, there are temporal punishments for SIN. Why are there temporal punishments for IMPERFECTIONS (attachment to things) unless imperfections are sinful? Treating something the same as sin sends a message! Being imperfect is sinful. God creates us imperfect and there is no choice in that. We have no choice but to be sinful!

Why can’t the imperfections be eliminated so we won’t have to go through this temporal punishment?

Those in purgatory or heaven both have a state of sanctifying grace.

yes, but not the same level.

If they had the same level of grace, there would be no need of purgatory, and both groups would be together as one in heaven.

1. What I posted before was “Venial sins are forgiven at death since they have no eternal consequences,”. I did not say that venial sin disappears and is not needed to be forgiven, like you claimed.

If they’re forgiven at death, then why is there purgatory for them? There are no eternal consequences, so why are there temporal punishments for them in purgatory?

There is no contradiction here

Yes, there is.

" an infusion of grace is not necessary in order to remove venial sin."

and

" but venial sin as to its guilt is remitted in Purgatory by virtue of grace"

So in one he says no grace is needed to remove venial sins, but in the other he says grace is needed.

It is CLEAR that purgatory is cleansing fire of grace being used to get rid of venial sins. Grace is to get rid of venial sins and imperfections in purgatory.

There is a difference between a gift (grace) and punishment.

Punishments are not a grace. Grace helps us avoid punishment.

You miss that there the two effects from sin: guilt and temporal punishment.

I know, we are still held temporally responsible for the sins of Adam and Eve.

 

[rinnie]

Correct.

Now, what is the purgatory resident missing that the heavenly resident not missing?

The difference is level of grace. The ones in purgatory have less grace than those in heaven.

If this is true, then purgatory cannot exist. But since purgatory does exist, your statement is not true.

How is it grace? Punishment comes from justice, not mercy. Grace and mercy go hand in hand.

Attachment to sin is an imperfection. It is something that reduces grace because it keeps one from going to heaven directly.

There are no levels of the Grace of God some use it some don’t that simple. You cannot blame God for ones free will to use it or reject it. The more grace you use the more grace you are given.

Its like saying a dad gives both kids ten bucks, one uses his wisely one blows it, Prot. Son etc. its not the fault of God he has no favorites.

 

[BobCatholic]

There are no levels of the Grace of God some use it some don’t that simple.

If one spills their cup, is it still full? Of course not, it is empty. (mortal sin)
If one spills some of the stuff in the cup, is it still ful? Of course not, it is partially full. (venial sin)

If there are no levels of grace, then purgatory does not exist.

Please explain what the person in purgatory is missing that the one in heaven is not missing? Grace is the only difference. They have different levels of grace.

Please tell me what the person in the fifth heaven is missing versus the one in the ninth heaven? (or is the ninth heaven the lower one? I don’t know.) This shows levels of grace.

You cannot blame God for ones free will to use it or reject it.

God created people imperfect. Then he goes ahead and punishes them for making imperfect decisions. When people ask God to remove their imperfections he says no.

The Great Programmer wrote buggy software, OF COURSE it will crash!

Imperfections reduce or eliminate free will.

The more grace you use the more grace you are given.

How does one use grace in a way that gets more grace? Imperfections negatively affect this.

 

[rinnie]

If one spills their cup, is it still full? Of course not, it is empty. (mortal sin)
If one spills some of the stuff in the cup, is it still ful? Of course not, it is partially full. (venial sin)

If there are no levels of grace, then purgatory does not exist.

Please explain what the person in purgatory is missing that the one in heaven is not missing? Grace is the only difference. They have different levels of grace.

Please tell me what the person in the fifth heaven is missing versus the one in the ninth heaven? (or is the ninth heaven the lower one? I don’t know.) This shows levels of grace.

God created people imperfect. Then he goes ahead and punishes them for making imperfect decisions. When people ask God to remove their imperfections he says no.

The Great Programmer wrote buggy software, OF COURSE it will crash!

Imperfections reduce or eliminate free will.

How does one use grace in a way that gets more grace? Imperfections negatively affect this.

Simple matthew 13:12 The more grace you use the more you are given, the more you refuse the grace of God the least you will receive.

Where does it say that God creates any of us imperfect. God created us all in his image and to do his will. that is made perfect to me. Where is imperfections there.

It is our choice to not choose to do the will of God that makes us imperfect, not the fault of God. We are all created good and with free will. It has nothing to do with God when we make ourselves imperfect when we choose to sin.

Again Matt shows you how to accept the grace of God and use it in order to obtain more.

Where does the word of God say ask and you will NOT receive? I never saw it. I saw ask and you will receive. Rather or not you choose to receive is on you not God.

How you fill Purgatory and Heaven our levels of the Grace of God is beyond me. It is not Catholic teaching, if so please show me.

Purgatory is in my Opinion the LARGEST GRACE given to us by God. It is where we die and have not quite reached Perfection (Sainthood) and use that Grace given to us by God to be there and reach Sainthood.

Purgatory is not a punishment it is a gift. What purgatory is, is this. Although we are indeed not in a state of mortal sin, we indeed have been forgiven our sin by God, but yet there is a part of us that still see’s (how can I say this to help you understand) the reason for our sin. Not the reason as much but the joy we got out of that sin. Do you see what I mean?

Here is another better example, lets say you did Coke, or any drug, although you as a drug addict have given up that drug, you still remember the effect of that drug, and you still craved that effect, miss that effect, that reward the buzz etc.

Thats what purgatory is although you forgo the sin you must also not even want that reward of what it gave you. you have to hate every entire thing of that sin. And that is harder for some then others. But by the grace of God and getting to see him eye to eye you now know you want him and he will be your reward in the end.

Its makes the buzz you can say a lot less appealing then it once had once you got to meet God. Now you must choose him over that buzz. Probally a bad example but its hard to explain.

Think of what you crave the most in this world whatever it is, in purgatory it cannot even be on the list. Only God. hope that helps.

 

[rinnie]

If one spills their cup, is it still full? Of course not, it is empty. (mortal sin)
If one spills some of the stuff in the cup, is it still ful? Of course not, it is partially full. (venial sin)

If there are no levels of grace, then purgatory does not exist.

Please explain what the person in purgatory is missing that the one in heaven is not missing? Grace is the only difference. They have different levels of grace.

Please tell me what the person in the fifth heaven is missing versus the one in the ninth heaven? (or is the ninth heaven the lower one? I don’t know.) This shows levels of grace.

God created people imperfect. Then he goes ahead and punishes them for making imperfect decisions. When people ask God to remove their imperfections he says no.

The Great Programmer wrote buggy software, OF COURSE it will crash!

Imperfections reduce or eliminate free will.

How does one use grace in a way that gets more grace? Imperfections negatively affect this.

I know the Jewish faith believe in levels of heaven at least I think they do. But I never heard this in Catholic Teaching. I do know God is fair and it has nothing to do with Grace what we get in heaven as much as how we used the grace on earth to be given in heaven what we deserve. But I don’t think it matters to be there with God would be enough. I would be honored to be the garbage man janitor etc just honor and serve God and to just be able to see him and talk to him.

llso how can our imperfections negatively effect the grace we are given??? Without these imperfections we what would be the need for Grace? If we were perfect we would be full of Grace like the Blessed Mother.

It is not our imperfections that negatively effect Grace, the negativity is our choice to reject the grace and choose sin over God. You can’t put blame God for imperfection nor his grace, God and his grace are never negative nor imperfect, its our rejection of Grace over sin.

You still seem to believe because we were given choice to do good or bad and because Adam and Eve chose sin, that the Grace given to us by God does not trump that. You have to quite blaming Adam and Eve and take your own blame. The grace of God trumps the fallen nature. But you refuse to believe the grace of God can surpass the stain of original sin. And thats untrue.

 

[Vico]

Imperfections make it more likely people will sin. It makes it easier to fall. It tilts the scales in the favor of the devil. Why does God create us imperfect?
It is MOST relevant!
What is the difference between someone in purgatory versus heaven? The one in purgatory is MISSING SOMETHING. It is grace they’re missing. They have a lower level of grace.
What is the difference someone in the fifth heaven versus seventh heaven? Again, levels of grace.
Attachment to things = imperfection = must be punished temporally. No mercy. Just suffer, mere mortal.
If that were true, purgatory would not exist. Everyone would go straight to heaven if they’re in a state of grace.
Yes, there are temporal punishments for SIN. Why are there temporal punishments for IMPERFECTIONS (attachment to things) unless imperfections are sinful? Treating something the same as sin sends a message! Being imperfect is sinful. God creates us imperfect and there is no choice in that. We have no choice but to be sinful!
Why can’t the imperfections be eliminated so we won’t have to go through this temporal punishment?
yes, but not the same level.
If they had the same level of grace, there would be no need of purgatory, and both groups would be together as one in heaven.
If they’re forgiven at death, then why is there purgatory for them? There are no eternal consequences, so why are there temporal punishments for them in purgatory?
Yes, there is.
" an infusion of grace is not necessary in order to remove venial sin."
and
" but venial sin as to its guilt is remitted in Purgatory by virtue of grace"
So in one he says no grace is needed to remove venial sins, but in the other he says grace is needed.
It is CLEAR that purgatory is cleansing fire of grace being used to get rid of venial sins. Grace is to get rid of venial sins and imperfections in purgatory.
Punishments are not a grace. Grace helps us avoid punishment.
I know, we are still held temporally responsible for the sins of Adam and Eve.

No, only the state of sanctifying grace is significant for salvation (which includes both purgatory and heaven which comes later). All those in purgatory are saints. The Church teaches dogmatically that those that die in the state of sanctifying grace are saved, so what you say there is a mistake: "If that were true, purgatory would not exist. Everyone would go straight to heaven if they’re in a state of grace. ".

It is not true what you have said “So in one he says no grace is needed to remove venial sins, but in the other he says grace is needed.” Because he did not say that. He said “infusion of grace” which would mean something to be added. It is not added since it is already present for all those in purgatory and heaven.

There are two effects from mortal sin: eternal guilt and temporal punishment.
There are two effects from venial sin: temporal guilt and temporal punishment.

Christ’s burden is light and that is why it is so easy to be forgiven mortal sin, and even more so a very slight movement of will accomplishes forgiveness of venial sin, even reception of Holy Communion.

 

[rinnie]

Bob Cath, I have one important question for you.

Do you believe that Christ died on the cross for our sins and baptism wipes out original sin?

 

[BobCatholic]

Simple matthew 13:12 The more grace you use the more you are given, the more you refuse the grace of God the least you will receive.

How does one “refuse” grace? I need all the grace I can get and more!

Where does it say that God creates any of us imperfect.

If we were perfect, we would not want to sin. We’d be like the saints and angels.

Where is imperfections there.

You’ve never sinned? You’ve never done anything wrong? You never saw an imperfect human being? They’re all over the place, it is our default state.

It is our choice to not choose to do the will of God that makes us imperfect, not the fault of God. We are all created good and with free will. It has nothing to do with God when we make ourselves imperfect when we choose to sin.

An imperfect person has defects (bugs in the software) that prevent them to do everything right.

Let’s use the bug of forgetfulness. Oops, they forgot to go to mass on Sunday. That’s not fulfilling the first commandment. At a minimum this is a venial sin, but could be mortal. Imperfections tilt people toward sin.

Where does the word of God say ask and you will NOT receive?

That only deals with the gift of the Holy Spirit. God is not a vending machine and does not grant everything we ask for. Otherwise, I’d be a billionaire and my son healed.

How you fill Purgatory and Heaven our levels of the Grace of God is beyond me. It is not Catholic teaching, if so please show me.

I don’t understand this question.

Purgatory is in my Opinion the LARGEST GRACE given to us by God. It is where we die and have not quite reached Perfection (Sainthood) and use that Grace given to us by God to be there and reach Sainthood.

AVOIDING purgatory and going straight to heaven is the LARGEST grace given to us by God.

Purgatory is not a punishment it is a gift. What purgatory is, is this. Although we are indeed not in a state of mortal sin, we indeed have been forgiven our sin by God, but yet there is a part of us that still see’s (how can I say this to help you understand) the reason for our sin. Not the reason as much but the joy we got out of that sin. Do you see what I mean?

An imperfection remains that needs to be eliminated.
Unforgiven venial sins that need to be destroyed.
A lack of grace that prevents one from going directly to heaven.

The level of grace between those in purgatory and those in heaven. They are not the same. If they were the same, purgatory is not needed.

 

[BobCatholic]

I know the Jewish faith believe in levels of heaven at least I think they do. But I never heard this in Catholic Teaching.

A “third heaven” is mentioned in 2 Corinthians 12:1-4. That shows there are levels of heaven.

I do know God is fair and it has nothing to do with Grace what we get in heaven as much as how we used the grace on earth to be given in heaven what we deserve. But I don’t think it matters to be there with God would be enough. I would be honored to be the garbage man janitor etc just honor and serve God and to just be able to see him and talk to him.

I’d like to have a personal relationship with God, but he doesn’t want me. That’s because I’m too imperfect for him. Every attempt I made to get closer to God has failed.

llso how can our imperfections negatively effect the grace we are given???

God gives us grace, like water in a bucket.

Imperfections are holes in the bucket. We leak.
Grace runs out.

Without these imperfections we what would be the need for Grace?

It is ridiculously difficult to get into heaven while it is ridiculously easy to get into hell due to imperfections. The scales are out of balance. Thus imperfections are impeding our way to heaven.

If we were perfect we would be full of Grace like the Blessed Mother.

Just contradicted yourself. That’s the point: If we were perfect THAT is grace!

You still seem to believe because we were given choice to do good or bad

What choice?

Buggy software will crash and do the wrong thing. There is no choice.

It is ridiculously easy to sin, and ridiculously difficult to be holy and good.

and because Adam and Eve chose sin,

I doubt they had full free will.

They were created imperfect. They had the imperfection of naivete, stupidity, egotism, fear or other imperfections.

You have to quite blaming Adam and Eve and take your own blame. The grace of God trumps the fallen nature.

So why aren’t we back in the Garden of Eden?

But you refuse to believe the grace of God can surpass the stain of original sin. And thats untrue.

If God’s grace overcame original sin, why are we still in this jail cell called earth? Why are we held temporally responsible for the sin of Adam and Eve?

 

[BobCatholic]

All those in purgatory are saints.

False. Those in purgatory are not saints YET. They’re on the way irrevocably.

The Church teaches dogmatically that those that die in the state of sanctifying grace are saved, so what you say there is a mistake: "If that were true, purgatory would not exist. Everyone would go straight to heaven if they’re in a state of grace. ".

You keep dodging my question, and never answer it.

What is the difference between the soul in heaven and the one in purgatory? The one in heaven has more grace, they differ in grace is what I say. You won’t answer that. You deny that.

There are two effects from mortal sin: eternal guilt and temporal punishment.
There are two effects from venial sin: temporal guilt and temporal punishment.

And there’s no way to get temporal punishment forgiven. That’s why we are still here in this jail cell.

Christ’s burden is light and that is why it is so easy to be forgiven mortal sin, and even more so a very slight movement of will accomplishes forgiveness of venial sin, even reception of Holy Communion.

Read the lives of the saints. The endured HORRIFIC suffering. That is not a light burden.

 

[BobCatholic]

Bob Cath, I have one important question for you.

Do you believe that Christ died on the cross for our sins and baptism wipes out original sin?

Yes to both.

But we are still held temporally responsible for the sins of Adam and Eve and our ancestor.

We are still stuck in this jail cell.

Something is missing, God held back something.