Is our free choice real

[rinnie]

But why the temporal punishment? Read below.

If what you say is true, that those in purgatory and heaven have the same level of grace and merit, they are being treated FAR differently - this is unjust. You’re accusing God of being unjust.

This can’t be the case, so therefore the difference between those in purgatory and heaven is that they have different levels of grace. The difference being that those in purgatory are imperfect - which they have no choice of having.

Yes, but there’s a problem.

One has to get a plenary indulgence. To get one, one must not be imperfect (i.e. have no attachment to sin which is an imperfection), which is impossible for ordinary people to do.

Even if someone DOES get a plenary indulgence, the next venial sin means game over to the state of “go directly to heaven” if they died.

But not all of it.

Even WITH a plenary indulgence, one is still held temporally responsible for the sins of their ancestors.

So, there is no choice if someone can get out of having to go to purgatory if they’re in a state of grace. Can’t keep the “go directly to heaven” state because one is imperfect.

Free will = 0 in this case.

How many ways can I explain this to you. I will try once more.

It is NOT US who need to be perfect to enter into heaven. There is nothing we can personally do for our own sin to justify heaven. There is no offering we can possibly do or make.

It is the PERFECT OFFERING that has already been made. Why do you continue to miss this? It is by the BLOOD, and DEATH and SUFFERING of Christ that made us sinless in the eyes of God. Yes we must confess our sins to a Priest to be forgiven Its BECAUSE of Christ this is even POSSIBLE.

WE are made PERFECT BECAUSE of Christ, THROUGH Christ, not in spite of Christ, there is nothing Jesus missed he paid in full.

All we have to do is confess our sin, and by his grace which is sufficient which you seem to disagree with, by this grace we can forgo all sin and want of sin. But you seem to believe that the sin of man is stronger then the grace of God.

 

[BobCatholic]

The Church does not call the consequences of original sin temporal punishments due sin, rather that term is used for actual sins.

The Church does not have an answer to why we are temporally held responsible for the sins of our ancestors.

There is no revelation that answers that question. Nothing in Sacred Scripture. Nothing in Sacred Tradition. Zero. Nada. None. I have not found any answer to why we are held temporally responsible for the sins of our ancestors - why we are in this jail cell.

So, some people have speculated things. The Church likes these and teaches them.

The Church says they are “consequences” but not “punishment” though both look exactly the same, since God is the one who is enforcing the punishment.

Sin is certainly imperfect behavior, however all imperfections are not sinful.

Imperfections cause people to be more likely to sin, and many imperfections actually cause sins.

Actual sin requires an act of will.

A will that has imperfections, or affected by imperfections means that the imperfections cause the sin. At the least they’re venial sins.

I do not post about amount of grace, except that it is irrelevant, since the Catholic Church teaches that the presence of temporal punishment is what determines if the just (those departed with the state of sanctifying grace) need purgatory or not.

The fact they are treated differently, shows there is SOMETHING different about them.

What’s the difference?

An imperfection that deserves a punishment.

An imperfection that God created man to have.

A human programmer writes buggy code then smashes the computer when the code crashes. Your reaction would probably be or :tsktsk: The boss’s reaction would be to fire this incompetent programmer who then destroyed company property.

Now, what if God was that programmer who wrote our code? All of a sudden that changes everything. It is only our fault, we are told. God is not responsible for anything. We are created imperfect yet are held to standards that only perfect people can attain. How is this just?

Q. You ask “Two people do the same thing, one gets punished with purgatory, one gets rewarded with heaven. How is that just?”
A. If the two are both repent and are forgiven the guilt, there still may remain temporal punishment. The acts of penance for sin eliminate the temporal punishment. So the difference between two in this example, is that one did incomplete penance and the other did complete penance.

We are saved by God’s grace alone, we are not Pelagians.

So, omitting an act of penance is a sin, since one is temporally punished for it - temporal punishment for sins. A venial sin, but a sin none the less. This duck is quacking loudly, and yes, it is a duck. Only sins are temporally punished.

You said that venial sins are forgiven at death, so there’s something missing in your explanation. Clearly the sins of omission don’t get forgiven at the time of death, but purgatory takes care of that forgiveness through horrific pain.

That temporal punishment is due to sin, even after the sin itself has been pardoned by God, is clearly the teaching of Scripture. God indeed brought man out of his first disobedience and gave him power to govern all things (Wisdom 10:2), but still condemned him “to eat his bread in the sweat of his brow” until he returned unto dust.

Here the Catechism describes the fact we are not in the Garden of Eden as a TEMPORAL PUNISHMENT. My point exactly.

God requires satisfaction, and will punish sin, and this doctrine involves as its necessary consequence a belief that the sinner failing to do penance in this life may be punished in another world, and so not be cast off eternally from God.

Clearly not doing enough penance is a venial sin.

In addition, it says “so not be cast off eternally from God” which indicates an ETERNAL penalty.

You said venial sins are not eternal. OK, let’s go with that. Then why do we have to endure horrific punishments so they would not be eternal? If we did not go to purgatory, if purgatory did not exist, then venial sins WOULD be treated just like mortal sins, elevator down.

 

[Vico]

The Church does not have an answer to why we are temporally held responsible for the sins of our ancestors.
There is no revelation that answers that question. Nothing in Sacred Scripture. Nothing in Sacred Tradition. Zero. Nada. None. I have not found any answer to why we are held temporally responsible for the sins of our ancestors - why we are in this jail cell.
So, some people have speculated things. The Church likes these and teaches them.
The Church says they are “consequences” but not “punishment” though both look exactly the same, since God is the one who is enforcing the punishment.
Imperfections cause people to be more likely to sin, and many imperfections actually cause sins.
A will that has imperfections, or affected by imperfections means that the imperfections cause the sin. At the least they’re venial sins.
The fact they are treated differently, shows there is SOMETHING different about them.
What’s the difference?
An imperfection that deserves a punishment.
An imperfection that God created man to have.
A human programmer writes buggy code then smashes the computer when the code crashes. Your reaction would probably be or :tsktsk: The boss’s reaction would be to fire this incompetent programmer who then destroyed company property.
Now, what if God was that programmer who wrote our code? All of a sudden that changes everything. It is only our fault, we are told. God is not responsible for anything. We are created imperfect yet are held to standards that only perfect people can attain. How is this just?

---

We are saved by God’s grace alone, we are not Pelagians.
So, omitting an act of penance is a sin, since one is temporally punished for it - temporal punishment for sins. A venial sin, but a sin none the less. This duck is quacking loudly, and yes, it is a duck. Only sins are temporally punished.
You said that venial sins are forgiven at death, so there’s something missing in your explanation. Clearly the sins of omission don’t get forgiven at the time of death, but purgatory takes care of that forgiveness through horrific pain.
Here the Catechism describes the fact we are not in the Garden of Eden as a TEMPORAL PUNISHMENT. My point exactly.
Clearly not doing enough penance is a venial sin.
In addition, it says “so not be cast off eternally from God” which indicates an ETERNAL penalty.
You said venial sins are not eternal. OK, let’s go with that. Then why do we have to endure horrific punishments so they would not be eternal? If we did not go to purgatory, if purgatory did not exist, then venial sins WOULD be treated just like mortal sins, elevator down.

In part of your post you talk about the consequences of original sin. We went over that must earlier. You persist in using terminology that the Church does not use.

In the other part of your post you talk about venial sin and salvation which we have been covering recently.

1. Temporal punishment is not sin but results from sin, as taught in the Catechism.
2. The Church teaches dogmatically that vernal sins are not eternal (Council of Trent): they do not make one unjust.
3. You wrote: “We are saved by God’s grace alone, we are not Pelagians.”
   A. One that dies with venial sin is saved, so that statement is not related to what I posted.Q. You ask “Two people do the same thing, one gets punished with purgatory, one gets rewarded with heaven. How is that just?”
   A. If the two are both repent and are forgiven the guilt, there still may remain temporal punishment. The acts of penance for sin eliminate the temporal punishment. So the difference between two in this example, is that one did incomplete penance and the other did complete penance.
4. It was posted before about culpability for sin, which allows taking personal responsibility for actual sins. There is no culpability without free will. Venial sin requires “full consent” . From before Catholic Encyclopedia:Actual sin is committed by a free personal act of the individual will.
   …
   Venial sin is committed * when the matter of the sin is light, even though the advertence of the intellect and consent of the will are full and deliberate, and * when, even though the matter of the sin be grave, there is not full advertence on the part of the intellect and full consent on the part of the will.
5. “You said that venial sins are forgiven at death”.
   A. Yes, I posted about that earlier with the teaching of the Church.

 

[BobCatholic]

In part of your post you talk about the consequences of original sin. We went over that must earlier. You persist in using terminology that the Church does not use.

As I said:

The Church does not have an answer to why we are temporally held responsible for the sins of our ancestors.
There is no revelation that answers that question. Nothing in Sacred Scripture. Nothing in Sacred Tradition. Zero. Nada. None. I have not found any answer to why we are held temporally responsible for the sins of our ancestors - why we are in this jail cell.

The Church does not use the terminology because the Church does not have the answer to this. God chose not to reveal it to her.

1. Temporal punishment is not sin but results from sin, as taught in the Catechism.

Correct, that’s why we are punished for Adam and Eve’s sin. And the sins of our ancestors.

1. The Church teaches dogmatically that vernal sins are not eternal (Council of Trent): they do not make one unjust.

Then how did you get that from the statement:

God requires satisfaction, and will punish sin, and this doctrine involves as its necessary consequence a belief that the sinner failing to do penance in this life may be punished in another world, and so not be cast off eternally from God.

According to the statement, the TEMPORAL PUNISHMENT is done so that one is not ETERNALLY cast off.

So, venial sins are forgiven at death per your statement.

Except for sins of omission (which are venial). Those get punished in purgatory. This is done so one is not eternally punished by God.

So the difference between two in this example, is that one did incomplete penance and the other did complete penance.

So the sin of omission is a venial sin that is not forgiveable. Except through going through purgatory.

There is no culpability without free will.

Then why are we held temporally responsible for the sins of our ancestors?

You also did not address this:

*The fact they are treated differently (those in heaven vs purgatory), shows there is SOMETHING different about them.

What’s the difference?

An imperfection that deserves a punishment.

An imperfection that God created man to have.

A human programmer writes buggy code then smashes the computer when the code crashes. Your reaction would probably be shock or just shake your head. The boss’s reaction would be to fire this incompetent programmer who then destroyed company property.

Now, what if God was that programmer who wrote our code? All of a sudden that changes everything. It is only our fault, we are told. God is not responsible for anything.

We are created imperfect yet are held to standards that only perfect people can attain. How is this just?

 

[Vico]

As I said:

The Church does not have an answer to why we are temporally held responsible for the sins of our ancestors.
There is no revelation that answers that question. Nothing in Sacred Scripture. Nothing in Sacred Tradition. Zero. Nada. None. I have not found any answer to why we are held temporally responsible for the sins of our ancestors - why we are in this jail cell.
The Church does not use the terminology because the Church does not have the answer to this. God chose not to reveal it to her.
Correct, that’s why we are punished for Adam and Eve’s sin. And the sins of our ancestors.
Then how did you get that from the statement:
God requires satisfaction, and will punish sin, and this doctrine involves as its necessary consequence a belief that the sinner failing to do penance in this life may be punished in another world, and so not be cast off eternally from God.

According to the statement, the TEMPORAL PUNISHMENT is done so that one is not ETERNALLY cast off.
So, venial sins are forgiven at death per your statement.
Except for sins of omission (which are venial). Those get punished in purgatory. This is done so one is not eternally punished by God.
So the sin of omission is a venial sin that is not forgiveable. Except through going through purgatory.
Then why are we held temporally responsible for the sins of our ancestors?
You also did not address this:

*The fact they are treated differently (those in heaven vs purgatory), shows there is SOMETHING different about them.

What’s the difference?

An imperfection that deserves a punishment.

An imperfection that God created man to have.

A human programmer writes buggy code then smashes the computer when the code crashes. Your reaction would probably be shock or just shake your head. The boss’s reaction would be to fire this incompetent programmer who then destroyed company property.

Now, what if God was that programmer who wrote our code? All of a sudden that changes everything. It is only our fault, we are told. God is not responsible for anything.

We are created imperfect yet are held to standards that only perfect people can attain. How is this just?

No, temporal punishment due sin refers to that which occurs from actual personal sins, not from original sin. That is how the Church uses it.

No, we are not held to standards that only perfect people can attain. All those that are saved (Church Militant, Church Penitent, Church Triumphant) are imperfect, only God is perfect.

The reason for purgatory in the saved is the attachments to sin for which there is temporal punishment. There is nothing that those that have died can do anymore about their temporal punishment, but God provides what is needed to purify them through His justice. If sufficient penance is performed before death then it is possible to eliminate purgatory.

The forgiveness of sins is of the guilt that results in eternal punishment, and at baptism there is also complete elimination of all temporal punishments for sin.

The Catholic Encyclopedia statement “God requires satisfaction, and will punish sin, and this doctrine involves as its necessary consequence a belief that the sinner failing to do penance in this life may be punished in another world, and so not be cast off eternally from God” is true and does not conflict with venial sins not making one unjust. The just attain salvation and those with no temporal punishment attain the Beatific Vision. It is specifically because there is purgatory that forgiven mortal sins and venial sins have no eternal consequences.

This is not correct “So, venial sins are forgiven at death per your statement. Except for sins of omission (which are venial). Those get punished in purgatory. This is done so one is not eternally punished by God.”

First sins of omission may be mortal so one cannot say they are always venial. Secondly only when penance is not complete in this life is there any temporal punishment after.

“There is no culpability without free will.” Q. Then why are we held temporally responsible for the sins of our ancestors?
A. We are not, Adam and Eve were. We are held personally responsible (culpable) for our sins committed with free will. We did not have, at our conception, the supernatural and preternatural gifts that they had, rather we have simple human nature subject to concupiscence. The Church does answer about how we are conceived with original sin:

Catechism

404 How did the sin of Adam become the sin of all his descendants? The whole human race is in Adam “as one body of one man”. 293 By this “unity of the human race” all men are implicated in Adam’s sin, as all are implicated in Christ’s justice.

 

[mkoopman]

No, we are not held to standards that only perfect people can attain. All those that are saved (Church Militant, Church Penitent, Church Triumphant) are imperfect, only God is perfect.

Both your patience and sincerity identify a higher level of grace. I will pray that your persistence dislodges the splinter. I need to go work on removing this beam.

 

[rinnie]

No, temporal punishment due sin refers to that which occurs from actual personal sins, not from original sin. That is how the Church uses it.

No, we are not held to standards that only perfect people can attain. All those that are saved (Church Militant, Church Penitent, Church Triumphant) are imperfect, only God is perfect.

The reason for purgatory in the saved is the attachments to sin for which there is temporal punishment. There is nothing that those that have died can do anymore about their temporal punishment, but God provides what is needed to purify them through His justice. If sufficient penance is performed before death then it is possible to eliminate purgatory.

The forgiveness of sins is of the guilt that results in eternal punishment, and at baptism there is also complete elimination of all temporal punishments for sin.

The Catholic Encyclopedia statement “God requires satisfaction, and will punish sin, and this doctrine involves as its necessary consequence a belief that the sinner failing to do penance in this life may be punished in another world, and so not be cast off eternally from God” is true and does not conflict with venial sins not making one unjust. The just attain salvation and those with no temporal punishment attain the Beatific Vision. It is specifically because there is purgatory that forgiven mortal sins and venial sins have no eternal consequences.

This is not correct “So, venial sins are forgiven at death per your statement. Except for sins of omission (which are venial). Those get punished in purgatory. This is done so one is not eternally punished by God.”

First sins of omission may be mortal so one cannot say they are always venial. Secondly only when penance is not complete in this life is there any temporal punishment after.

“There is no culpability without free will.” Q. Then why are we held temporally responsible for the sins of our ancestors?
A. We are not, Adam and Eve were. We are held personally responsible (culpable) for our sins committed with free will. We did not have, at our conception, the supernatural and preternatural gifts that they had, rather we have simple human nature subject to concupiscence. The Church does answer about how we are conceived with original sin:

Catechism

404 How did the sin of Adam become the sin of all his descendants? The whole human race is in Adam “as one body of one man”. 293 By this “unity of the human race” all men are implicated in Adam’s sin, as all are implicated in Christ’s justice.

Correct which in part means what adam lost Christ gained back. If anything if we truly look at it there is a lesson to be learned. Adam and Eve had a perfect life given to them by God but they felt they could do better on their own. So God said go ahead, but now when we gain that paradise and life with God, we will have no doubts what life is like outside of paradise, we live it here everyday, and we will never want to go back.

So they got the good first then the bad, we get to look forward to the good in the next life forever, if we want it.

 

[BobCatholic]

No, temporal punishment due sin refers to that which occurs from actual personal sins, not from original sin. That is how the Church uses it.

But we are still in this jail cell. Thus we are being held temporally responsible for the sins of our ancestors. So they sinned, we pay the price.

No, we are not held to standards that only perfect people can attain.

Yes we are. “Be ye perfect as the Heavenly Father is perfect” is clear. So is “nothing unclean shall enter heaven”

All those that are saved (Church Militant, Church Penitent, Church Triumphant) are imperfect, only God is perfect.

Church Triumphant are perfect and thus are perfect. Mother Mary was perfect all her life.

Church penitent and militant are imperfect and punished.

If sufficient penance is performed before death then it is possible to eliminate purgatory.

Correct.

The reason one goes to purgatory is because of a LACK of something - they didn’t do enough penance, they are punished for a sin of omission.

at baptism there is also complete elimination of all temporal punishments for sin.

After baptism one is still here in this jail cell, and still has concupiscence, so not all temporal punishments are removed

The Catholic Encyclopedia statement “God requires satisfaction, and will punish sin, and this doctrine involves as its necessary consequence a belief that the sinner failing to do penance in this life may be punished in another world, and so not be cast off eternally from God” is true and does not conflict with venial sins not making one unjust

God punishes sin. If one is in purgatory, it is because a sin of omission is being punished. Such a sin of omission has NO CHOICE in the matter.

First sins of omission may be mortal so one cannot say they are always venial.

If one is in purgatory, they’re venial. If mortal, they’re in hell.

A sin of omission is not forgiven until one goes through purgatory.

Q. Then why are we held temporally responsible for the sins of our ancestors?
A. We are not, Adam and Eve were. We are held personally responsible (culpable) for our sins committed with free will.

You’re conflating what I’m saying, please pay attention to what I’m actually saying.

We are NOT responsible (temporally or spiritually) for the sins of our ancestors.

We are HELD temporally responsible for the sins of our ancestors. We pay the price.

We did not have, at our conception, the supernatural and preternatural gifts that they had, rather we have simple human nature subject to concupiscence. The Church does answer about how we are conceived with original sin:

Catechism

404 How did the sin of Adam become the sin of all his descendants? The whole human race is in Adam “as one body of one man”. 293 By this “unity of the human race” all men are implicated in Adam’s sin, as all are implicated in Christ’s justice.

Correct. Notice what is missing.

Our choice is missing.

We have no choice in the matter. Adam is our boss without any choice on our part, thus we are held temporally responsible for his sin.

Pay attention to this part.

“all men are implicated in Adam’s sin, as all are implicated in Christ’s justice.”

So, we are held temporally responsible for the sin of Adam because we are implicated in Adam’s sin, but for some reason we are not released from that implication by being implicated in Christ’s justice.

Christ held back. He didn’t fix the temporal punishment.

We. Are. Still. Here. In. This. Jail. Cell.

Yes, our bail has been paid, and hopefullly we won’t forfeit it, but we are still stuck in the jail cell.

 

[Vico]

But we are still in this jail cell. Thus we are being held temporally responsible for the sins of our ancestors. So they sinned, we pay the price.
Yes we are. “Be ye perfect as the Heavenly Father is perfect” is clear. So is “nothing unclean shall enter heaven”
Church Triumphant are perfect and thus are perfect. Mother Mary was perfect all her life.
Church penitent and militant are imperfect and punished.
Correct.
The reason one goes to purgatory is because of a LACK of something - they didn’t do enough penance, they are punished for a sin of omission.
After baptism one is still here in this jail cell, and still has concupiscence, so not all temporal punishments are removed
God punishes sin. If one is in purgatory, it is because a sin of omission is being punished. Such a sin of omission has NO CHOICE in the matter.
If one is in purgatory, they’re venial. If mortal, they’re in hell.
A sin of omission is not forgiven until one goes through purgatory.
You’re conflating what I’m saying, please pay attention to what I’m actually saying.
We are NOT responsible (temporally or spiritually) for the sins of our ancestors.
We are HELD temporally responsible for the sins of our ancestors. We pay the price.
Correct. Notice what is missing.
Our choice is missing.
We have no choice in the matter. Adam is our boss without any choice on our part, thus we are held temporally responsible for his sin.
Pay attention to this part.
“all men are implicated in Adam’s sin, as all are implicated in Christ’s justice.”
So, we are held temporally responsible for the sin of Adam because we are implicated in Adam’s sin, but for some reason we are not released from that implication by being implicated in Christ’s justice.
Christ held back. He didn’t fix the temporal punishment.
We. Are. Still. Here. In. This. Jail. Cell.
Yes, our bail has been paid, and hopefullly we won’t forfeit it, but we are still stuck in the jail cell.

It seems that you have reverted back to the topic covered much earlier regarding original sin and not called temporal punishment due sin.

1. Yes, Adam was allowed by God to determine if mankind would receive the preternatural gifts or not and also supernatural grace at conception. So that can be called a punishment: original sin is called reatus poena but not reatus culpa, that is it is not personal fault. However, we know as a dogma of faith, that God is just.

Catechsm 385 "…no one can escape the experience of suffering or the evils in nature which seem to be linked to the limitations proper to creatures: and above all to the question of moral evil.

Catechism 405 Although it is proper to each individual,295 original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam’s descendants.

On the more recent topic, and relating to the tread topic of free will:

1. It is not a sin to not have completed all penance before death. You wrote: “A sin of omission is not forgiven until one goes through purgatory.” This is incorrect since all sins are forgiven (comission or omission) even though some termporal punishment remains. The forgivness of sins refers to guilt, the remission of sin. The elimination of temporal punishment by penance is called satisfaction for sin.

Imperfections can be from non-sin or from sin. Those in purgatory can do nothing to satisfy their temporal punishment at that late date. However, they do attain heaven through the action of others and God, not themselves, at least before the resurrection at the Genenal Judgment.

Catechism 1030 All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

 

[BobCatholic]

It seems that you have reverted back to the topic covered much earlier regarding original sin and not called temporal punishment due sin.

Because you have never dealt with why we are held temporally responsible for the sins of our ancestors. You keep going back to “we are not responsible” which is not what I said - but I do agree we are not responsible.

1. Yes, Adam was allowed by God to determine if mankind would receive the preternatural gifts or not and also supernatural grace at conception. So that can be called a punishment: original sin is called reatus poena but not reatus culpa, that is it is not personal fault. However, we know as a dogma of faith, that God is just.

If God is just why are we not in the Garden of Eden? We are in the same jail cell as they are.

God apparently loves us. OK, so why does he not want us to be with him in heaven? Now? Please activate that transporter pad…beam me up.

Catechism 405 Although it is proper to each individual,295 original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam’s descendants.

I never said it was a personal fault.

I said we are held temporally responsible for it. Big difference. Please actually address my objection instead of rewording it to something else.

1. It is not a sin to not have completed all penance before death.

If it is not a sin, then why is there temporal punishment for this “not sin” or “un-sin”? Now we have a contradiction in the faith (as you see it).

You wrote: “A sin of omission is not forgiven until one goes through purgatory.” This is incorrect since all sins are forgiven (comission or omission) even though some termporal punishment remains.

A sin is not forgiven completely if it is still being punished for.

Those in purgatory can do nothing to satisfy their temporal punishment at that late date

Thus they have no free will.

.

However, they do attain heaven through the action of others and God, not themselves, at least before the resurrection at the Genenal Judgment.

Again, free will = 0 for them.

Catechism 1030 All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

Since they have not achieved the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven, that means they are LACKING the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

How is holiness achieved? Through God’s grace. Cannot be holy without it.

Thus, those in purgatory are missing the grace of God needed to achieve heaven, so their level of grace is lower than those in heaven.

This is Church teaching.

 

[Vico]

Because you have never dealt with why we are held temporally responsible for the sins of our ancestors. You keep going back to “we are not responsible” which is not what I said - but I do agree we are not responsible.
If God is just why are we not in the Garden of Eden? We are in the same jail cell as they are.
God apparently loves us. OK, so why does he not want us to be with him in heaven? Now? Please activate that transporter pad…beam me up.
I never said it was a personal fault.
I said we are held temporally responsible for it. Big difference. Please actually address my objection instead of rewording it to something else.
If it is not a sin, then why is there temporal punishment for this “not sin” or “un-sin”? Now we have a contradiction in the faith (as you see it).
A sin is not forgiven completely if it is still being punished for.
Thus they have no free will.
Again, free will = 0 for them.
Since they have not achieved the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven, that means they are LACKING the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.
How is holiness achieved? Through God’s grace. Cannot be holy without it.
Thus, those in purgatory are missing the grace of God needed to achieve heaven, so their level of grace is lower than those in heaven.
This is Church teaching.

I did deal with that topic of responsibility last year in treads with you. Original sin is a grave matter which is eternal and you keep saying temporal.

There is no truth such that God is not just. God is just therefore it is just that we are not in the not in the Garden of Eden. The not in the Garden of Eden was not for us but for Adam and Eve, which God knew due to his omniscience. We have no right to the gifts that Adam and Eve received, even as they did not. You do not know where Adam and Eve are now, and they may be in heaven.

Sins are forgiven completely, in baptism. and in the Apostolic Blessing of the Annointing of the Sick, and sometimes with absolution in the sacrament of Confession. That is the dogmatic teaching of the Catholic Church. Catechism of St. Pius X:

109 Q: Why is a penance imposed in confession? A: A penance is imposed because, after sacramental absolution which remits sin and its eternal punishment, there generally remains a temporal punishment to be undergone, either in this world or in Purgatory.

Your statement is a profound misunderstanding of the teaching of the Church: “If what you say is true, that those in purgatory and heaven have the same level of grace and merit, they are being treated FAR differently - this is unjust. You’re accusing God of being unjust.”

Level is not significant. Level is a degree of help that is given instantaneously with the act of will of the person in proportion to what is needed to overcome the temptation. The Church teaches dogmatically that those in purgatory and heaven both have the state of sanctifying grace and that merit cannot be attained after death. The merit applies in heaven to determine the greater glory and Beatific Vision, and not in purgatory since there is no Beatific Vision in purgatory.

A sinful act and the result of a sinful act are not the same things. There is a double effect from sin: guilt and temporal punishment. The guilt is forgiven in confession and for venial with the reception of the Eucharist (for example) or a slight movement of will, but the temporal punishment requires penance. The need for both remission and satisfaction is not sin but the results of sin. One does not have to get a plenary indulgence to remove all temporal punishment. The correct amount of penance is sufficient which could include partial indulgences, but indulgences are not necessary.

Yes, the time to utilize free will is while the body is alive (but not after the resurrection), we cannot sin in purgatory or heaven, nor can we merit after death. The sufferages of the faithful (prayers and indulgences) and God, provide the satisfaction for those in purgatory! Satisfaction is resolved with penance, they already have the state of sanctifying grace. There is nothing about lacking the preternatural gifts that Adam and Eve were given and that we were not given, that prevents the baptized from attaining salvation.

Modern Catholic Dictionary

PRETERNATURAL GIFTS. Favors granted by God above and beyond the powers or capacities of the nature that receives them but not beyond those of all created nature. Such gifts perfect nature but do not carry it beyond the limits of created nature. They include three great privileges to which human beings have no title -infused knowledge, absence of concupiscence, and bodily immortality. Adam and Eve possessed these gifts before the Fall.

 

[BobCatholic]

I did deal with that topic of responsibility last year in treads with you. Original sin is a grave matter which is eternal and you keep saying temporal.

I agree, original sin is a mortal sin. God didn’t throw the proverbial book at a venial sin there, it was definitely a mortal sin.

There are temporal punishments for that sin. We are the ones currently paying that price.

We are held temporally responsible for their sin.

There is no truth such that God is not just.

I agree, I can’t say God is unjust.

But we are temporally held responsible for the sins of our ancestors. I can’t reconcile the two.

You cannot deny we are held temporally responsible for their sins, you are in the same jail cell as I am.

You cannot deny that God is just.

I can’t deny either. Thus there is something not revealed that would resolve this.

The not in the Garden of Eden was not for us but for Adam and Eve, .

False. While IN THE GARDEN God told Adam and Eve to “be fruitful and multiply”

Why would God say that while they were in the Garden? That tells a huge amount there! God intended us to be in the Garden with him!

That command makes no sense any other way, it is like God is playing a cruel joke on Adam and Eve. Not something I am advocating!

Had God told them AFTER getting kicked out, your theory is correct.

We have no right to the gifts that Adam and Eve received, even as they did not.

Fine, but we did have the right to be in the Garden of Eden and have only one rule. Otherwise, there must be some explanation on why we are held temporally responsible for the sins of our ancestors.

You do not know where Adam and Eve are now, and they may be in heaven.

Where they are is God’s business, not mine. My business is WHERE I AM.

I’m in the jail cell.

Sins are forgiven completely, in baptism. and in the Apostolic Blessing of the Annointing of the Sick, and sometimes with absolution in the sacrament of Confession. That is the dogmatic teaching of the Catholic Church. Catechism of St. Pius X:

I agree that they are supposed to be forgiven completely.

But for some reason the temporal punishment for our ancestors is still there. We are still in the jail cell.

Level is not significant.

Level IS significant. If they have the same amount of grace, then they are treated differently and you’re accusing God of being unjust. I’m not going down that road.

Since God is just, the level of grace for those in purgatory and heaven must be different. Otherwise, you accuse God of being unjust.

The Church teaches dogmatically that those in purgatory and heaven both have the state of sanctifying grace and that merit cannot be attained after death.

They have the state of grace, but not the state of the same level of grace. Otherwise, purgatory would not exist and both groups would be in heaven.

Anything outside of this is accusing God of being unjust. Not going there!

In addition, those in purgatory were robbed of their free will since they cannot merit anything.

A sinful act and the result of a sinful act are not the same things. There is a double effect from sin: guilt and temporal punishment. The guilt is forgiven in confession and for venial with the reception of the Eucharist (for example) or a slight movement of will, but the temporal punishment requires penance.

The temporal punishment (i.e. we are here in this jail cell) are not removed through any means.

One does not have to get a plenary indulgence to remove all temporal punishment.

The correct amount of penance is sufficient which could include partial indulgences, but indulgences are not necessary.

Reception of a plenary indulgence does not remove the temporal punishment due to sins of our ancestors. After reception, we still have concupiscence, and are in the jail cell.

There is nothing about lacking the preternatural gifts that Adam and Eve were given and that we were not given, that prevents the baptized from attaining salvation.

Modern Catholic Dictionary

PRETERNATURAL GIFTS. Favors granted by God above and beyond the powers or capacities of the nature that receives them but not beyond those of all created nature. Such gifts perfect nature but do not carry it beyond the limits of created nature. They include three great privileges to which human beings have no title -infused knowledge, absence of concupiscence, and bodily immortality. Adam and Eve possessed these gifts before the Fall.

However, they were created imperfect. They had imperfections such as pridefulness, naiveté, stupidity, or fear. Or some combination of all of those.

The buggy code crashed, and the Great Programmer threw the computer out of the computer lab instead of fixing the code.

 

[mkoopman]

…

Since they have not achieved the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven, that means they are LACKING the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

How is holiness achieved? Through God’s grace. Cannot be holy without it.

Thus, those in purgatory are missing the grace of God needed to achieve heaven, so their level of grace is lower than those in heaven.

This is Church teaching.

This is not Catholic Church teaching. Personal judgment before Christ after death is final and just. Those in Purgatory are not punished although there is suffering. You view Purgatory as if it were a little Hell. It is not.

Those in Purgatory bask in the joy and mercy of God, only not fully. Attachments to unhealthy desires remain after repenting of the sin occurred in acting upon these desires. The purgation of these attachments is not a matter of free will as you indicated with an improper ordering to grace.

This purgation occurs while those in Purgatory are in complete awe of God being directed towards The Godhead but in an incomplete union with God. The suffering is from the incomplete union, incomplete knowledge and love of God. The will is not disordered and requiring grace for the stain of sin to be lifted in Purgatory and within the imperfect closeness to God. We who are living require the grace of God to pray for our brothers and sisters in Purgatory in fulfilling our call to beatitude.

Your church appears more like a congregation of Mormons in your relation of the afterlife. The rich man in purple clothes is not purgating. We must act in love towards this one before he falls away to Gahenna. The grace God wills is not effective on those who suffer in punishing torment by turning away and remaining unrepentant.

After putting away the Mormon afterlife heresies intertwined with Catholic teaching will you step back to extol how Buddha and Jesus are equivalent compasses to moral living and a happy “next life?” We should accelerate such progressive programs.

Anyone have any accelerator? I have a great application for some.

 

[Vico]

…

1. The reason that one does not have to get a plenary indulgence to remove all temporal punishment is that indulgences are not required, only penance, also note that these are satisfactions not infusion of grace. Read what the Catechism states in 1471:

""An indulgence is a remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven, which the faithful Christian who is duly disposed gains under certain prescribed conditions through the action of the Church which, as the minister of redemption, dispenses and applies with authority the treasury of the satisfactions of Christ and the saints."81 "

Then it is explained how that purification occurs before death:

“A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.83
83 Cf. Council of Trent (1551): DS 1712-1713; (1563): 1820.”

Then in Canon 30 from the Council of Trent you can see, on satisfaction for our sin by penance:

Chapter 14 [807] … as well as satisfaction by fasting, almsgiving, prayers, and other devout exercises of the spiritual life, not indeed for the eternal punishment, which is remitted together with the guilt either by the sacrament or the desire of the sacrament, but for the temporal punishment [can. 30], which (as the Sacred Writings teach) is not always wholly remitted, as is done in baptism, to those who ungrateful to the grace of God which they have received, “have grieved the Holy Spirit” [cf. Eph. 4:30], and have not feared to “violate the temple of God” [1 Cor. 3:17]. Of this repentance it is written: “Be mindful, whence thou art fallen, do penance, and do the first works” [Rev. 2:5], and again: “The sorrow which is according to God, worketh penance steadfast unto salvation” [2 Cor. 7:10], and again: “Do penance” [Matt. 3:2; 4:17], and, “Bring forth fruits worthy of penance” [Matt. 3:8].

[Denzinger 840] Can. 30. If anyone shall say that after the reception of the grace of justification, to every penitent sinner the guilt is so remitted and the penalty of eternal punishment so blotted out that no penalty of temporal punishment remains to be discharged either in this world or in the world to come in purgatory before the entrance to the kingdom of heaven can be opened: let him be anathema [cf. n. 807].

The Catholic teaching (dogmas) are that those in purgatory are there due to being just and because of temporal punishment. Note the purpose “satisfactory works have for their object the removal of the temporal punishment still due to sin”.

Catholic Encylopedia

In Christ’s work of redemption merit and satisfaction materially coincide almost to their full extent, since as a matter of fact the merits of Christ are also works of satisfaction for man. But, since by His Passion and Death He truly merited, not only graces for us, but also external glory for His own Person (His glorious Resurrection and Ascension, His sitting at the right hand of the Father, the glorification of His name of Jesus, etc.), it follows that His personal merit extends further than His satisfaction, as He had no need of satisfying for Himself. The substantial and conceptual distinction between merit and satisfaction holds good when applied to the justified Christian, for every meritorious act has for its main object the increase of grace and of eternal glory, while satisfactory works have for their object the removal of the temporal punishment still due to sin.
Pohle, J. (1911). Merit. In The Catholic Encyclopedia. New York: Robert Appleton Company. newadvent.org/cathen/10202b.htm

1. The removal of the temporal punishment still due to sin is not referring to original sin consequences nor to granting any preternatural gifts (bodily immortality, integrity, and infused knowledge) that we never received but the Adam and Eve had, but what results from personal actual sins. One should not confuse the two effects and differences: one ancestral and the other personal.
2. One cannot deny that God is omniscient thus knew the event of the Fall and expulsion from paradise and subsequent event of the birth of Abel after Genesis 1:28 blessing to be fruitful and multiply.
3. Satisfaction for sins not infusion of grace occurs in purgatory. Father Edward McNamara, professor of liturgy at the Regina Apostolorum university, writes:

In the case of the deceased in purgatory any benefit is received passively, since the soul is no longer capable of performing new meritorious acts. While such a soul is already saved, it cannot increase in sanctity but only purify those imperfections which impede its definitive entrance into glory.

A living person, however, is still capable of growing in sanctifying grace. And so a Mass offered for a person already in God’s grace has the effect of offering a gift of increased grace which the person may willingly receive in order to become more Christlike.
ewtn.com/library/Liturgy/zlitur176.htm

 

[mkoopman]

1. The reason that one does not have to get a plenary indulgence to remove all temporal punishment is that indulgences are not required, only penance, also note that these are satisfactions not infusion of grace. Read what the Catechism states in 1471:

""An indulgence is a remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven, which the faithful Christian who is duly disposed gains under certain prescribed conditions through the action of the Church which, as the minister of redemption, dispenses and applies with authority the treasury of the satisfactions of Christ and the saints."81 "

Then it is explained how that purification occurs before death:

“A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.83
83 Cf. Council of Trent (1551): DS 1712-1713; (1563): 1820.”

Then in Canon 30 from the Council of Trent you can see, on satisfaction for our sin by penance:

Chapter 14 [807] … as well as satisfaction by fasting, almsgiving, prayers, and other devout exercises of the spiritual life, not indeed for the eternal punishment, which is remitted together with the guilt either by the sacrament or the desire of the sacrament, but for the temporal punishment [can. 30], which (as the Sacred Writings teach) is not always wholly remitted, as is done in baptism, to those who ungrateful to the grace of God which they have received, “have grieved the Holy Spirit” [cf. Eph. 4:30], and have not feared to “violate the temple of God” [1 Cor. 3:17]. Of this repentance it is written: “Be mindful, whence thou art fallen, do penance, and do the first works” [Rev. 2:5], and again: “The sorrow which is according to God, worketh penance steadfast unto salvation” [2 Cor. 7:10], and again: “Do penance” [Matt. 3:2; 4:17], and, “Bring forth fruits worthy of penance” [Matt. 3:8].

[Denzinger 840] Can. 30. If anyone shall say that after the reception of the grace of justification, to every penitent sinner the guilt is so remitted and the penalty of eternal punishment so blotted out that no penalty of temporal punishment remains to be discharged either in this world or in the world to come in purgatory before the entrance to the kingdom of heaven can be opened: let him be anathema [cf. n. 807].

The Catholic teaching (dogmas) are that those in purgatory are there due to being just and because of temporal punishment. Note the purpose “satisfactory works have for their object the removal of the temporal punishment still due to sin”.

Catholic Encylopedia

In Christ’s work of redemption merit and satisfaction materially coincide almost to their full extent, since as a matter of fact the merits of Christ are also works of satisfaction for man. But, since by His Passion and Death He truly merited, not only graces for us, but also external glory for His own Person (His glorious Resurrection and Ascension, His sitting at the right hand of the Father, the glorification of His name of Jesus, etc.), it follows that His personal merit extends further than His satisfaction, as He had no need of satisfying for Himself. The substantial and conceptual distinction between merit and satisfaction holds good when applied to the justified Christian, for every meritorious act has for its main object the increase of grace and of eternal glory, while satisfactory works have for their object the removal of the temporal punishment still due to sin.
Pohle, J. (1911). Merit. In The Catholic Encyclopedia. New York: Robert Appleton Company. newadvent.org/cathen/10202b.htm

1. The removal of the temporal punishment still due to sin is not referring to original sin consequences nor to granting any preternatural gifts (bodily immortality, integrity, and infused knowledge) that we never received but the Adam and Eve had, but what results from personal actual sins. One should not confuse the two effects and differences: one ancestral and the other personal.
2. One cannot deny that God is omniscient thus knew the event of the Fall and expulsion from paradise and subsequent event of the birth of Abel after Genesis 1:28 blessing to be fruitful and multiply.
3. Satisfaction for sins not infusion of grace occurs in purgatory. Father Edward McNamara, professor of liturgy at the Regina Apostolorum university, writes:

In the case of the deceased in purgatory any benefit is received passively, since the soul is no longer capable of performing new meritorious acts. While such a soul is already saved, it cannot increase in sanctity but only purify those imperfections which impede its definitive entrance into glory.

A living person, however, is still capable of growing in sanctifying grace. And so a Mass offered for a person already in God’s grace has the effect of offering a gift of increased grace which the person may willingly receive in order to become more Christlike.
ewtn.com/library/Liturgy/zlitur176.htm

Beautifully stated with evident charity, a clear resonance upon the dignity of persons and rational coherence. That means; Thank You, Vico.

Do you correspond here as an act of penance? In any case, you have a gift of oratory. You are possessed of a charism toward evangelism. Does what is in possession when I dialog show in that most previous statement? We are all possessed of different gifts.

Your gifts appear closer to the heart of the body while mine are clearly a baser part. Do you worry over my part being cut off to avoid condemnation? Ooh, looks like I may have oratory gifts, also. It’s The Spirit.

 

[BobCatholic]

Correct which in part means what adam lost Christ gained back. .

If he gained it back (and I think he did) Christ didn’t allow us to gain it back.

We are still here in this jail cell. Christ held back.

This is not Catholic Church teaching. Personal judgment before Christ after death is final and just. Those in Purgatory are not punished although there is suffering. You view Purgatory as if it were a little Hell. It is not.

I see Purgatory as punishing something that was forgiven. Something not right about that.

If we were created perfect, purgatory would not be needed. God creates us imperfect then punishes us for gasp being imperfect.

I want to be perfect. I want to not have to go through this purgatory or any punishments.

I ask God to fix my code, so that way the bugs won’t crash me. But he says no.

So I have no choice but to be imperfect. There is no free will involved there.

Attachments to unhealthy desires remain after repenting of the sin occurred in acting upon these desires. The purgation of these attachments is not a matter of free will as you indicated with an improper ordering to grace.

There is no free will involved here.

Your church appears more like a congregation of Mormons in your relation of the afterlife. The rich man in purple clothes is not purgating. We must act in love towards this one before he falls away to Gahenna. The grace God wills is not effective on those who suffer in punishing torment by turning away and remaining unrepentant.

After putting away the Mormon afterlife heresies intertwined with Catholic teaching will you step back to extol how Buddha and Jesus are equivalent compasses to moral living and a happy “next life?” We should accelerate such progressive programs.

Wow, what a stretch.

I never said mormonism or buddhism in my posts.

Can you answer why we are held temporally responsible for the sins of our ancestors? I have yet to find one person who can answer that.

The reason is that there is no revelation, Church teaching or anything to explain why we are here in this jail cell. Yet here we are.

 

[BobCatholic]

1. The reason that one does not have to get a plenary indulgence to remove all temporal punishment is that indulgences are not required, only penance, also note that these are satisfactions not infusion of grace. Read what the Catechism states in 1471:

How much penance can I do to get out of this jail cell and return to the Garden of Eden?

Not enough, apparently. And no amount of indulgences either.

So this temporal punishment can’t be resolved.

In Christ’s work of redemption merit and satisfaction materially coincide almost to their full extent,

Almost, but not fully. We are still here in this jail cell. And purgatory is another jail cell.

it follows that His personal merit extends further than His satisfaction, as He had no need of satisfying for Himself.

However, we are still here in this jail cell, so something is missing. Something is lacking in the sufferings of Christ.

1. The removal of the temporal punishment still due to sin is not referring to original sin consequences nor to granting any preternatural gifts (bodily immortality, integrity, and infused knowledge) that we never received but the Adam and Eve had, but what results from personal actual sins. One should not confuse the two effects and differences: one ancestral and the other personal.

I don’t confuse the two.

Ancestral sin is not forgiven, and cannot be forgiven, so we stay in this jail cell until death. God chooses not to forgive this sin, though God forgives everything else and infinitely.

Can’t get indulgences or do any penance that can resolve that.

God cares about the spiritual to the utter exclusion of the temporal. To Him, the temporal is unimportant.

1. One cannot deny that God is omniscient thus knew the event of the Fall and expulsion from paradise and subsequent event of the birth of Abel after Genesis 1:28 blessing to be fruitful and multiply.

The way you word this, makes it seem that “be fruitful and multiply” was a cruel joke.

No, I disagree. It was a blessing from God. God intended us to be there.

Otherwise, God would have said that AFTER the fall.

In the case of the deceased in purgatory any benefit is received passively, since the soul is no longer capable of performing new meritorious acts.

free will = 0 for those in purgatory.

 

[Vico]

How much penance can I do to get out of this jail cell and return to the Garden of Eden?

Not enough, apparently. And no amount of indulgences either.
So this temporal punishment can’t be resolved.
Almost, but not fully. We are still here in this jail cell. And purgatory is another jail cell.
However, we are still here in this jail cell, so something is missing. Something is lacking in the sufferings of Christ.
I don’t confuse the two.
Ancestral sin is not forgiven, and cannot be forgiven, so we stay in this jail cell until death. God chooses not to forgive this sin, though God forgives everything else and infinitely.
Can’t get indulgences or do any penance that can resolve that.
God cares about the spiritual to the utter exclusion of the temporal. To Him, the temporal is unimportant.
The way you word this, makes it seem that “be fruitful and multiply” was a cruel joke.
No, I disagree. It was a blessing from God. God intended us to be there.
Otherwise, God would have said that AFTER the fall.
free will = 0 for those in purgatory.

1. Only Adam and Eve were given the Garden of Eden. In Eden, Adam and Even could fall into sin. The destiny of the elect is New Jerusalem and with both purgatory and heaven there is no more commission of sin. New Jerusalem is not the Garden of Eden!
2. You are referring to preternatural gifts which are given to the elect eventually, and we are said to be deprived of them. It is said to be deprived because it was a possibility due to our free will.

Modern Catholic Dictionary, Original Justice

The state of Adam and Eve before they sinned. It was the simultaneous possession of sanctifying grace, with its right to enter heaven, and the preternatural gifts. Had Adam not sinned, original justice would have been transmitted to all his descendants. Later, through repentance, he personally recovered sanctifying grace but not the other prerogatives of original justice. Since Adam, human beings are said to be deprived of original justice. Jesus Christ, the new head of the human race, by his passion and death expiated human sin and regained what Adam had lost. Sanctifying grace is restored at justification, but the preternatural gifts are returned only as capacities (such as the ability to overcome concupiscence) or only eventually (such as bodily immortality after the final resurrection).

1. “One cannot deny that God is omniscient thus knew the event of the Fall and expulsion from paradise and subsequent event of the birth of Abel after Genesis 1:28 blessing to be fruitful and multiply.”
   You wrote: “The way you word this, makes it seem that “be fruitful and multiply” was a cruel joke.”
   A. I see no indication of a joke or cruelty in omniscience of the Fall yet still blessing reproduction. God gave free will to them even though it would be used to sin. Can you use some new phrases which would explain you thinking?

 

[BobCatholic]

1. Only Adam and Eve were given the Garden of Eden.

At the time, yes. But the intention of God was to let the children in. “Be fruitful and multiply” said IN the garden didn’t say this would take place only OUTside of the garden as the original plan.

Yes, God knew they’d mess up. But having mankind in the Garden of Eden was God’s plan.

In addition, we had the “Adam as head of human race” theory used to say why we deserve to be punished for his sins here and now. That same theory can be used to say that we also were to be given the Garden of Eden was well prior to the fall.

New Jerusalem is not the Garden of Eden!

I know, but somehow I have ot make it there. As long as I am imperfect, I’m going to make mistakes and this is the will of God.

1. You are referring to preternatural gifts which are given to the elect eventually, and we are said to be deprived of them. It is said to be deprived because it was a possibility due to our free will.

No.

I’m talking about being able to live in paradise AND have only one rule to follow. I can’t get those other gifts you talk about.

** Had Adam not sinned, original justice would have been transmitted to all his descendants.**

See? Catholic teaching backs me up here.
we also were to be given the Garden of Eden was well prior to the fall.

Later, through repentance, he personally recovered sanctifying grace but not the other prerogatives of original justice. Since Adam, human beings are said to be deprived of original justice. Jesus Christ, the new head of the human race, by his passion and death expiated human sin and regained what Adam had lost. Sanctifying grace is restored at justification, but the preternatural gifts are returned only as capacities (such as the ability to overcome concupiscence) or only eventually (such as bodily immortality after the final resurrection).

So since we have concupiscence, we have less of a choice.

I see no indication of a joke or cruelty in omniscience of the Fall yet still blessing reproduction. God gave free will to them even though it would be used to sin. Can you use some new phrases which would explain you thinking?

See above.

 

[Vico]

At the time, yes. But the intention of God was to let the children in. “Be fruitful and multiply” said IN the garden didn’t say this would take place only OUTside of the garden as the original plan.

Yes, God knew they’d mess up. But having mankind in the Garden of Eden was God’s plan.

In addition, we had the “Adam as head of human race” theory used to say why we deserve to be punished for his sins here and now. That same theory can be used to say that we also were to be given the Garden of Eden was well prior to the fall.

I know, but somehow I have ot make it there. As long as I am imperfect, I’m going to make mistakes and this is the will of God.

No.

I’m talking about being able to live in paradise AND have only one rule to follow. I can’t get those other gifts you talk about.

See? Catholic teaching backs me up here. we also were to be given the Garden of Eden was well prior to the fall.

So since we have concupiscence, we have less of a choice.

See above.

Still no indication of cruelty or joke, so you are not communicating.

Do you understand predestination? The descendants of Adam and Eve were not predestined to have the preternatural gifts or to live in Garden of Eden.

Though the grace of God is given, the person will freely either cooperate with it or not. You wrote “As long as I am imperfect, I’m going to make mistakes and this is the will of God.”

The will of God is that you have free will, and God gives you grace to overcome temptations (concupiscence *), which with your cooperation, you will do, and yes we are all imperfect. Not sure what you mean by less of a choice.

• Adam and Eve did not have concupiscence before their sin.

Catechism
600 To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of “predestination”, he includes in it each person’s free response to his grace: "In this city, in fact, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place."395 For the sake of accomplishing his plan of salvation, God permitted the acts that flowed from their blindness.396