Is our free choice real

[BobCatholic]

Still no indication of cruelty or joke, so you are not communicating.

The cruel joke?

The cruel joke is simple.

Make people imperfect. They have no choice but to fail, buggy software crashes, it is only a matter of time. So when the software crashes, punish them as if they had full free will without any realization that the code should be fixed.

But wait, we ask for code to be fixed, God says no. But we get punished if we were patched completely with no bugs in the code.

That is the cruelty.

Do you understand predestination? The descendants of Adam and Eve were not predestined to have the preternatural gifts or to live in Garden of Eden.

Predestination = if you’re winning, you win more. If you’re losing, God does not want to help.

I ask God to fix my code. He says no. Thus I lose more.

Though the grace of God is given, the person will freely either cooperate with it or not. You wrote “As long as I am imperfect, I’m going to make mistakes and this is the will of God.”

The will of God is that you have free will, and God gives you grace to overcome temptations (concupiscence *), which with your cooperation, you will do, and yes we are all imperfect. Not sure what you mean by less of a choice.

Does grace fix concupiscence?

If not, then concupiscence is the bug that causes the software to crash. It was not fixed.

• Adam and Eve did not have concupiscence before their sin.

No, but they had other imperfections. They were naieve, stupid, prideful or fearful. One or more defects in the software.

he includes in it each person’s free response to his grace

So does God take into account we are not perfect and fail repeatedly? Why won’t God fix the code?

Imperfections reduce or eliminate free will. God has not fixed this bug.

 

[Vico]

The cruel joke?
The cruel joke is simple.
Make people imperfect. They have no choice but to fail, buggy software crashes, it is only a matter of time. So when the software crashes, punish them as if they had full free will without any realization that the code should be fixed.
But wait, we ask for code to be fixed, God says no. But we get punished [as] if we were patched completely with no bugs in the code.
That is the cruelty.
Predestination = if you’re winning, you win more. If you’re losing, God does not want to help.
I ask God to fix my code. He says no. Thus I lose more.
Does grace fix concupiscence?
If not, then concupiscence is the bug that causes the software to crash. It was not fixed.
No, but they had other imperfections. They were naieve, stupid, prideful or fearful. One or more defects in the software.
So does God take into account we are not perfect and fail repeatedly? Why won’t God fix the code?
Imperfections reduce or eliminate free will. God has not fixed this bug.

I see that you don’t understand predestination, from your response.

Repeating what was said several times before: that we achieve our crown of glory only after being tested. (This covers not having the preternatural gifts of Adam and Eve.)

1. *]original sin - not personally responsible but implicated
   *]personal sin - personally responsible (Yes, imperfections can reduce or eliminate free will, but culpability changes because of that, and there is no punishment when not culpable.)
   
   Your idea of cruelty is:
   1. 
      *]Make imperfect people such that they have no choice but to fail.
      *]Do not fix the imperfections when asked to.
      *]Punish them for the failures.
      
      You wrote: “If you’re losing, God does not want to help.”
      A. Illogical because God gives us his Son and grace.
      
      Q. Does grace fix concupiscence?
      A. Yes if by fix you mean allow to overcome temptation.
      
      So certainly cruelty does not apply to **personal sin **of the Angels or mankind, because punishment is not a result of anything one is not culpable for through free will.
      
      Regarding original sin, the punishment is living with the duality of pleasure and pain in this world, and suffering in the next world. But, because of original sin, we have the Incarnation, which is not a show of indifference but to overcome original sin. But we have **original sin **because God allowed Adam and Eve to decide for all mankind.

 

[BobCatholic]

I see that you don’t understand predestination, from your response.

Repeating what was said several times before: that we achieve our crown of glory only after being tested.

Tested. With imperfections we are more likely than not to fail the test. It is ridiculously easy to go to hell, it is our default destination. It is horrifically difficult to go to heaven. So the scales are out of balance which indicates that free will is at best a cruel joke or nonexistent at worse.

(This covers not having the preternatural gifts of Adam and Eve.)

Right, here’s the final exam, your pencil is broken and the lead missing.(concupiscence and other imperfections) Oh, you have a lifetime to fill in the ovals.

And remember, you have free choice to choose the right answer. But your pencil is never fixed. Not even by grace.

original sin - not personally responsible but implicated

I keep having to repeat myself because you don’t listen.

I never say we ARE responsible, whether temporal or spiritual for the sins of our ancestors - not just Adam and Eve’s but everyone else in our past.

I say we are HELD TEMPORALLY RESPONSIBLE for the sins of our ancestors - not just Adam and Eve’s but everyone else in our past.

The proof is: We are here in this jail cell.

Your idea of cruelty is:

1. 
   *]Make imperfect people such that they have no choice but to fail.
   *]Do not fix the imperfections when asked to.
   *]Punish them for the failures.

1. 
   This is true. We are still here in this jail cell.
   

   You wrote: “If you’re losing, God does not want to help.”
   A. Illogical because God gives us his Son and grace.

   Then per your statement, God is illogical.
   
   Case 1:
   
   Matthew 13:12.
   
   For he that hath, to him shall be given, and he shall abound: but he that hath not, from him shall be taken away that also which he hath.
   
   So if one is winning they win more, if one is losing, they lose everything. This is the will of God.
   
   Free will = 0 in this case.
   
   Case 2:
   
   I’ve tried all my life to get closer to God and failed.
   
   I’m told the hound of heaven is chasing me, but instead what I see is he playing hard to get.
   
   I’m told that God loves me. If someone loves me, they want to be with me. Instead, I’m here in this jail cell further from him than when I started.
   
   Again, free will = 0 in this case.
   

   Q. Does grace fix concupiscence?
   A. Yes if by fix you mean allow to overcome temptation.

   I mean fix in two ways: 1) by making the scales balanced. 2) no more falling
   
   But it doesn’t. Read the lives of the saints. They kept falling daily. And there’s that saying that a just man falls 7 times a day. Concupiscence goes away five seconds after purgatory time is over. It never goes away while we are in this jail cell.
   
   In addition, the scales are never balanced. It always remains horrifically difficult to get to heaven and ridiculously easy to go to hell.
   
   By those two proofs, grace does not fix concupiscence. We are stuck in the final exam room, with a broken pencil (imperfections and concupiscence) and told to fill in the ovals on the test. And then we are told we have free will to choose the right answer on the exam, but we cannot do that because the pencil is broken. Grace never fixes the pencil, so how do we stand a chance of passing the test?
   
   Free will = 0.
   

   So certainly cruelty does not apply to **personal sin **of the Angels or mankind, because punishment is not a result of anything one is not culpable for through free will.

   So, explain why we are held temporally responsible for the sins of our ancestors yet we are not culpable of it. How is that not cruel?
   

   But we have **original sin **because God allowed Adam and Eve to decide for all mankind.

   Precisely. They decided. We didn’t. Free will = 0 for us.
   
   That’s why we have no choice but to be in this jail cell here on earth. Free will is at best a cruel joke and at worst nonexistent.

 

[Vico]

Tested. With imperfections we are more likely than not to fail the test. It is ridiculously easy to go to hell, it is our default destination. It is horrifically difficult to go to heaven. So the scales are out of balance which indicates that free will is at best a cruel joke or nonexistent at worse.
Right, here’s the final exam, your pencil is broken and the lead missing.(concupiscence and other imperfections) Oh, you have a lifetime to fill in the ovals.
And remember, you have free choice to choose the right answer. But your pencil is never fixed. Not even by grace.
I keep having to repeat myself because you don’t listen.
I never say we ARE responsible, whether temporal or spiritual for the sins of our ancestors - not just Adam and Eve’s but everyone else in our past.
I say we are HELD TEMPORALLY RESPONSIBLE for the sins of our ancestors - not just Adam and Eve’s but everyone else in our past.
The proof is: We are here in this jail cell.
This is true. We are still here in this jail cell.
Then per your statement, God is illogical.
Case 1:
Matthew 13:12.
For he that hath, to him shall be given, and he shall abound: but he that hath not, from him shall be taken away that also which he hath.
So if one is winning they win more, if one is losing, they lose everything. This is the will of God.
Free will = 0 in this case.
Case 2:
I’ve tried all my life to get closer to God and failed.
I’m told the hound of heaven is chasing me, but instead what I see is he playing hard to get.
I’m told that God loves me. If someone loves me, they want to be with me. Instead, I’m here in this jail cell further from him than when I started.
Again, free will = 0 in this case.
I mean fix in two ways: 1) by making the scales balanced. 2) no more falling
But it doesn’t. Read the lives of the saints. They kept falling daily. And there’s that saying that a just man falls 7 times a day. Concupiscence goes away five seconds after purgatory time is over. It never goes away while we are in this jail cell.
In addition, the scales are never balanced. It always remains horrifically difficult to get to heaven and ridiculously easy to go to hell.
By those two proofs, grace does not fix concupiscence. We are stuck in the final exam room, with a broken pencil (imperfections and concupiscence) and told to fill in the ovals on the test. And then we are told we have free will to choose the right answer on the exam, but we cannot do that because the pencil is broken. Grace never fixes the pencil, so how do we stand a chance of passing the test?
Free will = 0.
So, explain why we are held temporally responsible for the sins of our ancestors yet we are not culpable of it. How is that not cruel?
Precisely. They decided. We didn’t. Free will = 0 for us.
That’s why we have no choice but to be in this jail cell here on earth. Free will is at best a cruel joke and at worst nonexistent.

You said this many times: “free will is at best a cruel joke or nonexistent at worse”

We know that is not true, even from the Council of Trent, Session VI, On Justification:

• CANON V.-If any one saith, that, since Adam’s sin, the free will of man is lost and extinguished; or, that it is a thing with only a name, yea a name without a reality, a figment, in fine, introduced into the Church by Satan; let him be anathema.

Yes, that crown of glory may be difficult for some people, but not impossible for the baptized. Council of Trent, Session VI, On Justification:

• CANON XVIII.-If any one saith, that the commandments of God are, even for one that is justified and constituted in grace, impossible to keep; let him be anathema.

Your definition of failure is not the same as the failure of mortal sin. It is the failure of mortal sin through free will and without repentance, that brings damnation.

Only God is perfect. We are saved by the grace of God when we cooperate with it.

You wrote: “I keep having to repeat myself because you don’t listen.”
A. I have responded directly to your statements each time which I “listen to”. You really mean I do not agree with your opinion I think.

You wrote: “I say we are held temporally responsible for the sins of our ancestors”.
A. The Church says that after baptism “certain temporal consequences of sin” remain. Also that God is just, so do you mean to oppose the teaching that God is just then?

 

[BobCatholic]

You said this many times: “free will is at best a cruel joke or nonexistent at worse”

We know that is not true, even from the Council of Trent, Session VI, On Justification:

• CANON V.-If any one saith, that, since Adam’s sin, the free will of man is lost and extinguished; or, that it is a thing with only a name, yea a name without a reality, a figment, in fine, introduced into the Church by Satan; let him be anathema.

I never said it was impossible.

I said it was HORRIFICALLY DIFFICULT.

Big difference.

It is easy to go to hell, hard to go to heaven.

The scales are out of balance.

If we had free will the scales would be balanced or a lot closer than the lopzided way it is now, with hell being our default destination and insufficient grace to overcome imperfections. I ask God to overcome my faults and I am not perfect yet, not even within the same continent.

Your definition of failure is not the same as the failure of mortal sin. It is the failure of mortal sin through free will and without repentance, that brings damnation.

Are you saying it is ridiculously easy to get to heaven? I disagree.

We went from sermons like St. Leonard who basically said almost nobody goes to heaven to today’s Church which says that the mortal sin standards are so strict, that almost nobody commits mortal sin. Which is right?

Only God is perfect.

Saints and good angels are perfect. Mother Mary is perfect. They’re in heaven.

We are saved by the grace of God when we cooperate with it.

How does one know if they’re doing this properly? No way to do so.

In addition, people have the imperfection of fooling themselves. I could be fooling myself and find out the hard way at judgment day no choice.

Free will = 0.

You wrote: “I keep having to repeat myself because you don’t listen.”
A. I have responded directly to your statements each time which I “listen to”. You really mean I do not agree with your opinion I think.

So why do you keep saying we are not responsible for the sins of our ancestors (I agree) when I am saying We are held temporally responsible for the sins of our ancestors? It is like you are not paying attention to the point I’m making. Both are not the same.

You wrote: “I say we are held temporally responsible for the sins of our ancestors”.
A. The Church says that after baptism “certain temporal consequences of sin” remain. Also that God is just, so do you mean to oppose the teaching that God is just then?

So are you saying that the Church teaches differently than what I’m saying? How? The Church says nothing about what I’m saying and what I’m saying doesn’t contradict what the Church teaches.

God is just, I don’t understand how being in this jail cell is just.

I don’t understand why playing hard to get is OK for God but if I do it, it is a mortal sin.

I don’t understand why we are held temporally responsible for the sins of our ancestor.

I don’t understand why I am not allowed in the Garden of Eden and have one rule.

I don’t understand why God creates imperfect people then punishes them for the results of said imperfections.

Why can’t I live in paradise and only have one rule? The testing is too hard.

hard testing = reduced or eliminated free will = no choice for us.

 

[Vico]

I never said it was impossible.
I said it was HORRIFICALLY DIFFICULT.
Big difference.
It is easy to go to hell, hard to go to heaven.
The scales are out of balance.
If we had free will the scales would be balanced or a lot closer than the lopzided way it is now, with hell being our default destination and insufficient grace to overcome imperfections. I ask God to overcome my faults and I am not perfect yet, not even within the same continent.
Are you saying it is ridiculously easy to get to heaven? I disagree.
We went from sermons like St. Leonard who basically said almost nobody goes to heaven to today’s Church which says that the mortal sin standards are so strict, that almost nobody commits mortal sin. Which is right?
Saints and good angels are perfect. Mother Mary is perfect. They’re in heaven.
How does one know if they’re doing this properly? No way to do so.
In addition, people have the imperfection of fooling themselves. I could be fooling myself and find out the hard way at judgment day no choice.
Free will = 0.
So why do you keep saying we are not responsible for the sins of our ancestors (I agree) when I am saying We are held temporally responsible for the sins of our ancestors? It is like you are not paying attention to the point I’m making. Both are not the same.
So are you saying that the Church teaches differently than what I’m saying? How? The Church says nothing about what I’m saying and what I’m saying doesn’t contradict what the Church teaches.
God is just, I don’t understand how being in this jail cell is just.
I don’t understand why playing hard to get is OK for God but if I do it, it is a mortal sin.
I don’t understand why we are held temporally responsible for the sins of our ancestor.
I don’t understand why I am not allowed in the Garden of Eden and have one rule.
I don’t understand why God creates imperfect people then punishes them for the results of said imperfections.
Why can’t I live in paradise and only have one rule? The testing is too hard.
hard testing = reduced or eliminated free will = no choice for us.

No, I did not say it was ridiculously easy.

You ask: “Which is right?”
A. The Church says we cannot know the final state of a person unless it is revealed to us. So, we do not judge that.

You ask: “Why can’t I live in paradise and only have one rule?”
A. Because it is not God’s plan for salvation.

Once again you post “Free will = 0.” But you did not answer this question:
You wrote: “I say we are held temporally responsible for the sins of our ancestors”.
A. The Church says that after baptism “certain temporal consequences of sin” remain. Also that God is just, so do you mean to oppose the teaching that God is just then?

I think you have to admit that since God is just:

• it is jus
• it is just that God test our love for Him,t that God did not give us the preternatural gifts or sanctifying grace at our conception,
• it is just that Earthly live involves everyday suffering,
• it is just that God provides the states of hell, purgatory, and heaven based upon our personal sins.

“To hold someone responsible for something” is to blame them. We are not blamed for the sin of Adam and Eve but are implicated in it.

You wrote: “The Church says nothing about what I’m saying and what I’m saying doesn’t contradict what the Church teaches.”
A. Of course it does, as posted before from the Catechism:

1734 Freedom makes man responsible for his acts to the extent that they are voluntary. Progress in virtue, knowledge of the good, and ascesis enhance the mastery of the will over its acts.

402 All men are implicated in Adam’s sin, as St. Paul affirms: “By one man’s disobedience many (that is, all men) were made sinners”: "sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned."289 The Apostle contrasts the universality of sin and death with the universality of salvation in Christ. "Then as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men."290

[Original sin]
404 … It is a sin which will be transmitted by propagation to all mankind, that is, by the transmission of a human nature deprived of original holiness and justice. And that is why original sin is called “sin” only in an analogical sense: it is a sin “contracted” and not “committed” - a state and not an act.

 

[BobCatholic]

No, I did not say it was ridiculously easy.

Well, I say it is horrifically HARD. Meanwhile it is ridiculously EASY to go to hell. It is after all, our default state.

You ask: “Which is right?”
A. The Church says we cannot know the final state of a person unless it is revealed to us. So, we do not judge that.

So how do I know I’m going to purgatory or heaven? I have zero way of knowing. So this mean I must be doomed. Especially since God does not want me.

You ask: “Why can’t I live in paradise and only have one rule?”
A. Because it is not God’s plan for salvation.

Correct. God’s will is pain and suffering in this jail cell. Not prosperity. Not health. Not good things. Just pain.

Punished for the sins of our ancestors.

Once again you post “Free will = 0.” But you did not answer this question:
You wrote: “I say we are held temporally responsible for the sins of our ancestors”.
A. The Church says that after baptism “certain temporal consequences of sin” remain.

There is no scripture, not Tradition, no Church teaching on why we are held temporally responsible for the sins of our ancestors.

Also that God is just, so do you mean to oppose the teaching that God is just then?

Answer me this.

Why are we in this jail cell?

Why is it just to punish us for the sins of our ancestors?

Why is it God’s will that we not live in paradise with him, and only have one rule? That made it easy to go to heaven. Instead, we live in this jail cell and getting to heaven is horrifically difficult.

Why is it just to make people imperfect while punishing them for their failures? Why is it not just to just fix the code instead of letting the computer crash repeatedly from buggy code?

Why set a standard so high to get to heaven that only Christ can do it? “be ye perfect…”

If you can answer those questions without questioning God’s justness, I’d love to see it.

*]it is just that God test our love for Him,t that God did not give us the preternatural gifts or sanctifying grace at our conception,

God gives us a test, with no way to pass it. Set up to fail.

If God loved us, he would want to be us and have us be with him.
Instead, every attempt I made to get closer to God failed. He plays hard to get.

“To hold someone responsible for something” is to blame them. We are not blamed for the sin of Adam and Eve but are implicated in it.

We are beyond implicated. We are punished for their sins.

That’s why we are in this jail cell.

You wrote: “The Church says nothing about what I’m saying and what I’m saying doesn’t contradict what the Church teaches.”

None of the catechism sections address why we are held temporally responsible for the sins of our ancestors.

None.

No Scripture.
No Tradition.
No revelation at all.

Free will = 0 to get closer to God.
Free will = 0 to overcome imperfections which are barriers to perfection and thus entry into heaven
Free will = 0 to avoid being punished for the sins of our ancestors.

 

[Vico]

Well, I say it is horrifically HARD. Meanwhile it is ridiculously EASY to go to hell. It is after all, our default state.

So how do I know I’m going to purgatory or heaven? I have zero way of knowing. So this mean I must be doomed. Especially since God does not want me.

Correct. God’s will is pain and suffering in this jail cell. Not prosperity. Not health. Not good things. Just pain.

Punished for the sins of our ancestors.

There is no scripture, not Tradition, no Church teaching on why we are held temporally responsible for the sins of our ancestors.

Answer me this.

Why are we in this jail cell?

Why is it just to punish us for the sins of our ancestors?

Why is it God’s will that we not live in paradise with him, and only have one rule? That made it easy to go to heaven. Instead, we live in this jail cell and getting to heaven is horrifically difficult.

Why is it just to make people imperfect while punishing them for their failures? Why is it not just to just fix the code instead of letting the computer crash repeatedly from buggy code?

Why set a standard so high to get to heaven that only Christ can do it? “be ye perfect…”

If you can answer those questions without questioning God’s justness, I’d love to see it.

God gives us a test, with no way to pass it. Set up to fail.

If God loved us, he would want to be us and have us be with him.
Instead, every attempt I made to get closer to God failed. He plays hard to get.

We are beyond implicated. We are punished for their sins.

That’s why we are in this jail cell.

None of the catechism sections address why we are held temporally responsible for the sins of our ancestors.

None.

No Scripture.
No Tradition.
No revelation at all.

Free will = 0 to get closer to God.
Free will = 0 to overcome imperfections which are barriers to perfection and thus entry into heaven
Free will = 0 to avoid being punished for the sins of our ancestors.

So you deny the dogma that God is just!

Those questions were answered in earlier posts.

 

[BobCatholic]

So you deny the dogma that God is just!
.

I have not denied that. I can’t answer the question if God is just, that’s all. I don’t understand how the situations ARE just, if they are just at all.

So, now your turn. Please answer my questions.

Why are we in this jail cell?

Why is it just to punish us for the sins of our ancestors?

Why is it God’s will that we not live in paradise with him, and only have one rule? That made it easy to go to heaven. Instead, we live in this jail cell and getting to heaven is horrifically difficult.

Why is it just to make people imperfect while punishing them for their failures? Why is it not just to just fix the code instead of letting the computer crash repeatedly from buggy code?

Why set a standard so high to get to heaven that only Christ can do it? “be ye perfect…”

Is God responsible for anything?

 

[Vico]

I have not denied that. I can’t answer the question if God is just, that’s all. I don’t understand how the situations ARE just, if they are just at all…

I did answer these questions before.

You state “That made it easy to go to heaven” however Adam and Eve fell, so one cannot conclude that it was easy or would have been easy. Adam and Eve were not perfected in virtue although they did not have sensual temptations and had the state of sanctifying grace at least at some time before their fall. Their fall through the sin of pride is of the irascible appetite. St. Thomas Aquinas wrote in S.T. “But the will regards good according to the common notion of good, and therefore in the will, which is the intellectual appetite, there is no differentiation of appetitive powers, so that there be in the intellectual appetite an irascible power distinct from a concupiscible power.”

Some terms:

1. 
   *]Crime means “An offense against morality; sin”
   *]Criminal means “A person who has committed a crime.”
   *]Jail means “A place where criminals are kept in order to punish them, or where people waiting to be tried are kept.”
   *]Prisoner means “A person who is kept in a prison as a punishment for a crime that they have committed.”
   *]Jail cell means “A small room in a jail where a prisoner is kept”.
   
   So I take (5 - jail cell) to be Earth, or later, Hell for those (2 - criminal) that have committed a serious (unforgiven) sin (1 - crime) and that they await the particular judgment (3 - jail) and as necessary are punished (4 - prisoner). In keeping with the definitions this applies to personal sin because it all pertains to a criminal. Therefore it does not apply to original sin for the descendants of Adam and Eve.
   
   Q. Why is it just to make people imperfect while punishing them for their failures? Why is it just to punish us for the sins of our ancestors?
   A. Justice is to receive a result that corresponds to good or evil done, but also to receive a deterrent from evil which will also be called punishment but not for something done.
   
   Q. Why set a standard so high to get to heaven that only Christ can do it? “be ye perfect…”
   A. It isn’t the standard but a goal. To prevent sin would mean removal of free will and then there would be no possibility to express love or malice, no sacrifice for another.
   
   Q. Is God responsible for anything?
   A. One that is responsible is the cause or can be blamed for something. Since God is good He has no blame, however He is the first cause and in that sense is responsible for creation, however evil is “humanity’s rejection of God and opposition to him,” Catechism 386.
   
   What does one rule mean?

 

[BobCatholic]

I did answer these questions before.

You state “That made it easy to go to heaven” however Adam and Eve fell, so one cannot conclude that it was easy or would have been easy.

It was 500 times (maybe more) easier than it is now. They had no concupiscence. And they only had one rule to follow!

So I take (5 - jail cell) to be Earth,

Yes, earth outside of the Garden of Eden is a jail cell.

Therefore it does not apply to original sin for the descendants of Adam and Eve.

Correct. So why are we held temporally responsible for the sins of our ancestors?

Q. Why is it just to make people imperfect while punishing them for their failures? Why is it just to punish us for the sins of our ancestors?
A. Justice is to receive a result that corresponds to good or evil done, but also to receive a deterrent from evil which will also be called punishment but not for something done.

That doesn’t answer my question.

Q. Why set a standard so high to get to heaven that only Christ can do it? “be ye perfect…”
A. It isn’t the standard but a goal. To prevent sin would mean removal of free will and then there would be no possibility to express love or malice, no sacrifice for another.

A goal doesn’t have to be reached. A standard is a requirement, and scripture verses like “be ye perfect…” and “nothing unclean shall enter heaven” are requirements. Especially when Christ rejected the rich young ruler saying he wasn’t perfect enough.

So, please answer my question.

Q. Is God responsible for anything?
A. One that is responsible is the cause or can be blamed for something. Since God is good He has no blame,

Creating people imperfect and refusing to fix the bugs is a good thing?

however He is the first cause and in that sense is responsible for creation, however evil is “humanity’s rejection of God and opposition to him,” Catechism 386.

He’s not responsible for evil. Is he responsible for anything outside of creation?

What does one rule mean?

Don’t eat from that tree. If I was in the Garden of Eden I wouldn’t break that rule.

So how do I know I’m going to purgatory or heaven? I have zero way of knowing. So this mean I must be doomed. Especially since God does not want me. You never answered that.

 

[Vico]

…

Part I

1. Q. Creating people imperfect and refusing to fix the bugs is a good thing?
   A. Yes.

2 Tim 2

Timothy’s Conduct. 1 [a]So you, my child, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. 2 And what you heard from me through many witnesses entrust to faithful people who will have the ability to teach others as well. 3 Bear your share of hardship along with me like a good soldier of Christ Jesus. 4 To satisfy the one who recruited him, a soldier does not become entangled in the business affairs of life. 5 Similarly, an athlete cannot receive the winner’s crown except by competing according to the rules. 6 The hardworking farmer ought to have the first share of the crop. 7 Reflect on what I am saying, for the Lord will give you understanding in everything.

1 Cor 3
10 [f]According to the grace of God given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building upon it. But each one must be careful how he builds upon it, 11 for no one can lay a foundation other than the one that is there, namely, Jesus Christ. 12 If anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, 13 the work of each will come to light, for the Day[g] will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire [itself] will test the quality of each one’s work. 14 If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. 15 But if someone’s work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved,[h] but only as through fire. 16 Do you not know that you are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17 If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy that person; for the temple of God, which you are, is holy.*

1. Garden of Eden, in the same sense of waiting for judgment, was also a jail cell. God is omniscent always knowing of the fall.
2. To be in the state of sanctifying grace, which his the only way to earn merit.

**Matthew 19:21 Jesus saith to him: If thou wilt be perfect, go sell what thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come follow me.

Lucan parallel to Matt 5:48

Luke 6:36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.

Matthew 5:48 Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect.
Haydock commentary.**

Matthew 5 Ver. 48. Jesus Christ here sums up his instructions by ordering us to be perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect; i.e. to imitate, as far as our exertions, assisted by divine grace, can reach, the divine perfection. (Witham)

— See here the great superiority of the new over the old law. But let no one hence take occasion to despise the old. Let him examine attentively, says St. Chrysostom, the different periods of time, and the persons to whom it was given; and he will admire the wisdom of the divine Legislator, and clearly perceive that it is one and the same Lord, and that each law was to the great advantage of mankind, and wisely adapted to the times of their promulgation. For, if among the first principles of rectitude, these sublime and eminent truths had been found, perhaps neither these, nor the less perfect rules of morality would have been observed; whereas, by disposing of both in their proper time, the divine wisdom has employed both for the correction of the world. (Hom. xviii.) Seeing then that we are thus blessed as to be called, and to be the children of so excellent a Father, we should endeavour, like Him, to excel in goodness, meekness, and charity; but above all in humility, which will secure to us the merit of good works, through the infinite merits of our divine Redeemer, Master, and model, Christ Jesus the Lord. (Haydock)*

 

[Vico]

…

Part II

1. Q. Why is it just to make people imperfect while punishing them for their failures?
   A. Man is created good, but not imperfect. Since we can become adopted sons of God, there is a journey that occurs to become adopted. Catechism:

V. GOD CARRIES OUT HIS PLAN: DIVINE PROVIDENCE

302 Creation has its own goodness and proper perfection, but it did not spring forth complete from the hands of the Creator. The universe was created “in a state of journeying” (in statu viae) toward an ultimate perfection yet to be attained, to which God has destined it. We call “divine providence” the dispositions by which God guides his creation toward this perfection:

By his providence God protects and governs all things which he has made, “reaching mightily from one end of the earth to the other, and ordering all things well”. For “all are open and laid bare to his eyes”, even those things which are yet to come into existence through the free action of creatures.161

1. Q. Why is it just to punish us for the sins of our ancestors?
   A. Justice is to receive a result that corresponds to good or evil done, but also to receive a deterrent from evil which will also be called punishment but not for something done.

St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologiae > First Part of the Second Part > Question 87 The debt of punishment Article 7. Whether every punishment is inflicted for a sin?

I answer that, As already stated (Article 6), punishment can be considered in two ways – simply, and as being satisfactory.* A satisfactory punishment is, in a way, voluntary. And since those who differ as to the debt of punishment, may be one in will by the union of love, it happens that one who has not sinned, bears willingly the punishment for another: thus even in human affairs we see men take the debts of another upon themselves. * If, however, we speak of punishment simply, in respect of its being something penal, it has always a relation to a sin in the one punished. * Sometimes this is a relation to actual sin, as when a man is punished by God or man for a sin committed by him. * Sometimes it is a relation to original sin: and this, either principally or consequently – * principally, the punishment of original sin is that human nature is left to itself, and deprived of original justice:* and consequently, all the penalties which result from this defect in human nature.

Nevertheless we must observe that sometimes a thing seems penal, and yet is not so simply. Because punishment is a species of evil, as stated in the I:48:5. Now evil is privation of good. And since man’s good is manifold, viz. good of the soul, good of the body, and external goods, it happens sometimes that man suffers the loss of a lesser good, that he may profit in a greater good, as when he suffers loss of money for the sake of bodily health, or loss of both of these, for the sake of his soul’s health and the glory of God. In such cases the loss is an evil to man, not simply but relatively; wherefore it does not answer to the name of punishment simply, but of medicinal punishment, because a medical man prescribes bitter potions to his patients, that he may restore them to health. And since such like are not punishments properly speaking, they are not referred to sin as their cause, except in a restricted sense: because the very fact that human nature needs a treatment of penal medicines, is due to the corruption of nature which is itself the punishment of original sin. For there was no need, in the state of innocence, for penal exercises in order to make progress in virtue; so that whatever is penal in the exercise of virtue, is reduced to original sin as its cause.

Baltimore Catechism
Q. 257. Is it not unjust to punish us for the sin of our first parents?

A. It is not unjust to punish us for the sin of our first parents, because their punishment consisted in being deprived of a free gift of God; that is, of the gift of original justice to which they had no strict right and which they willfully forfeited by their act of disobedience.

1. Q. So how do I know I’m going to purgatory or heaven?
   A. One cannot know absolutely, apart from a special revelation from God, concerning salvation of oneself or another.

 

[BobCatholic]

Part I

1. Q. Creating people imperfect and refusing to fix the bugs is a good thing?
   A. Yes.

2 Tim 2

Timothy’s Conduct. 1 [a]So you, my child, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. 2 And what you heard from me through many witnesses entrust to faithful people who will have the ability to teach others as well. 3 Bear your share of hardship along with me like a good soldier of Christ Jesus. 4 To satisfy the one who recruited him, a soldier does not become entangled in the business affairs of life. 5 Similarly, an athlete cannot receive the winner’s crown except by competing according to the rules. 6 The hardworking farmer ought to have the first share of the crop. 7 Reflect on what I am saying, for the Lord will give you understanding in everything.

So, God made the rules, and that’s the way it is. No choice. None whatsoever. Free will = 0.

So, what you are saying is that God practices legal positivism.

How is it good to create people WORSE and hold them to a HIGHER STANDARD?

Before: one rule
After: 17 rules plus many sub-rules And you must be perfect!

Before: Preternatural abilities.
After: Concupiscence, weakness, evil, sin, imperfect beyond belief.

1. Garden of Eden, in the same sense of waiting for judgment, was also a jail cell. God is omniscent always knowing of the fall.

No, it was paradise. It was outside of the jail cell known as earth outside of the Garden of Eden. There was no suffering. No pain. And only one rule to follow!

1. To be in the state of sanctifying grace, which his the only way to earn merit.

Matthew 19:21 Jesus saith to him: If thou wilt be perfect, go sell what thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come follow me.
​

Correct. God hates money and wants us all to take a vow of poverty.

Matthew 5 Ver. 48. Jesus Christ here sums up his instructions by ordering us to be perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect; i.e. to imitate, as far as our exertions, assisted by divine grace, can reach

, the divine perfection. (Witham)

— See here the great superiority of the new over the old law. But let no one hence take occasion to despise the old. Let him examine attentively, says St. Chrysostom, the different periods of time, and the persons to whom it was given; and he will admire the wisdom of the divine Legislator, and clearly perceive that it is one and the same Lord, and that each law was to the great advantage of mankind, and wisely adapted to the times of their promulgation. For, if among the first principles of rectitude, these sublime and eminent truths had been found, perhaps neither these, nor the less perfect rules of morality would have been observed; whereas, by disposing of both in their proper time, the divine wisdom has employed both for the correction of the world. (Hom. xviii.) Seeing then that we are thus blessed as to be called, and to be the children of so excellent a Father, we should endeavour, like Him, to excel in goodness, meekness, and charity; but above all in humility, which will secure to us the merit of good works, through the infinite merits of our divine Redeemer, Master, and model, Christ Jesus the Lord. (Haydock)

You will notice that there is a lot missing here.

There is no fixing of the buggy software.
There is no aid in obliterating our concupiscence.
There is no aid in overcoming the held responsible for the sins of our ancestors part.

But hey, we must be perfect! Standard raised, ability to do it lowered.

How is this anywhere with 50 miles of “free will other than zero”?

 

[BobCatholic]

Part II

4)A. Man is created good, but not imperfect.

The first part is true, the second part is utterly false.

Yes, we are created good.

We are NOT created perfect in any way shape or form. Not only are we created imperfect, we are worse off than Adam and Eve who had preternatural gifts.

My gosh, we are in a world of Idiocracy being our future, and Game of Thrones being our current reality. If THAT is perfection, I’m not wanting it!

Since we can become adopted sons of God, there is a journey that occurs to become adopted.

Adopted but left in the orphanage and jail cell.

If God loved me, he’d want me to be with him.

V. GOD CARRIES OUT HIS PLAN: DIVINE PROVIDENCE

302 Creation has its own goodness and proper perfection, but it did not spring forth complete from the hands of the Creator. The universe was created “in a state of journeying” (in statu viae) toward an ultimate perfection yet to be attained, to which God has destined it. We call “divine providence” the dispositions by which God guides his creation toward this perfection:

Right there, we are created imperfect. How can we be journeying toward perfection if we are not perfect in the first place? This just contradicted what you told me.

By his providence God protects and governs all things which he has made, “reaching mightily from one end of the earth to the other, and ordering all things well”.

God does not protect us from all evils, only those HE CHOOSES to do so. If God feels like it, he does it. If not, game over, no amount of begging, pleading, praying will work.

1. Q. Why is it just to punish us for the sins of our ancestors?
   A. Justice is to receive a result that corresponds to good or evil done, but also to receive a deterrent from evil which will also be called punishment but not for something done.

This doesn’t answer my question.

St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologiae > First Part of the Second Part > Question 87 The debt of punishment Article 7. Whether every punishment is inflicted for a sin?

I answer that, As already stated (Article 6), punishment can be considered in two ways – simply, and as being satisfactory.* A satisfactory punishment is, in a way, voluntary.
​

Which means no punishment is satisfactory, because nobody volunteers for it. It is imposed without the volunteering of the victim.

it happens that one who has not sinned, bears willingly the punishment for another: thus even in human affairs we see men take the debts of another upon themselves.

This is a willing taking on someone else’s debt.

I never willingly took on the debt for my ancestors, and I’m not responsible for it (temporally or spiritually) but I’m still held temporally responsible for it.

• Sometimes it is a relation to original sin: and this, either principally or consequently – * principally, the punishment of original sin is that human nature is left to itself, and deprived of original justice:* and consequently, all the penalties which result from this defect in human nature.

Deprived of original justice = lack of grace
Also, deprived of original level of imperfection (we are FAR more imperfect than they ever were)

Nevertheless we must observe that sometimes a thing seems penal, and yet is not so simply. Because punishment is a species of evil, as stated in the I:48:5. Now evil is privation of good. And since man’s good is manifold, viz. good of the soul, good of the body, and external goods, it happens sometimes that man suffers the loss of a lesser good, that he may profit in a greater good,

Because God is not as generous as people say He is. He refuses to give us the greater good unless we sacrifice the lesser good.

Baltimore Catechism
Q. 257. Is it not unjust to punish us for the sin of our first parents?
​

A. It is not unjust to punish us for the sin of our first parents, because their punishment consisted in being deprived of a free gift of God; that is, of the gift of original justice to which they had no strict right and which they willfully forfeited by their act of disobedience.

Again, God is not as generous as people say He is.

We are DEPRIVED of those gifts.

In addition God is capricious and arbitrary. Give gives to Adam and Eve and take away those gifts from us even though we didn’t do it.

OK, I can’t stand on justice, because there is no justice in love. This is why we can’t say God is unjust.

So love means God can do whatever he wants, even if it is inconsistent and I think it is unjust.
Because there is no justice in love.

Also, the section does not address

• The ability to live in the Garden of Eden
• No suffering
• Only one rule
• You can have a personal relationship with God.
• You can talk to God face to face without being scared.
• You can talk to God face to face!

All of these were taken away, and these are not the gifts mentioned in the section.

Also, it doesn’t explain why God let the snake into the Garden. Hacker broke through the firewall and compromised the system. But it is man’s fault only. Not the snake.

1. Q. So how do I know I’m going to purgatory or heaven?
   A. One cannot know absolutely, apart from a special revelation from God, concerning salvation of oneself or another.

So if I’m on the wrong road, how do I find the right road? If I’m on the right road, how do I know I’m turning on the wrong road?

I do not want to find out the hard way that I’m going elevator down! So I must know NOW so I can adjust if I’m on the wrong road and stand the course if I’m on the right road.​

 

[Vico]

…

…

You wrote: “Right there, we are created imperfect. How can we be journeying toward perfection if we are not perfect in the first place? This just contradicted what you told me.”
A. That was a mistake, it should have read “A. Man is created good, but not perfect. Since we can become adopted sons of God, there is a journey that occurs to become adopted.”

You wrote: “God made the rules, … free-will = 0”
A. It means natural free will to choose from certain options, not that you are God and can do anything.

You wrote of Eden: “It was outside of the jail cell known as earth outside of the Garden of Eden”
A. No it was Earth before the fall. A definition of jail is a place awaiting judgement, and they were judged in the Garden of Eden before explulsion.

You wrote: “Before: one rule. After: 17 rules plus many sub-rules And you must be perfect!”
A. Their one rule is to obey God and they fell by pride.
No, one must have the state of sanctifying grace at death, which occurs in the imperfect.

You wrote: “If God loved me, he’d want me to be with him”.
A. Yes God loves you, and want’s you to be in heaven, however know if you will be or not already. What would prevent it is lack of sanctifying grace at death.

Ezekiel 33:11 “Answer them: As I live — oracle of the Lord God — I swear I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! Why should you die, house of Israel?”

Dogma of faith, God is perfect which means justice and mercy: Vatican I, Session III (April 24, 1870):
Denzinger 1782 [The one, living, and true God and His distinction from all things.] * The holy, Catholic, Apostolic, Roman Church believes and confesses that there is one, true, living God, Creator and Lord of heaven and earth, omnipotent, eternal, immense, incomprehensible, infinite in intellect and will, and in every perfection; who, although He is one, singular, altogether simple and unchangeable spiritual substance, must be proclaimed distinct in reality and essence from the world; most blessed in Himself and of Himself, and ineffably most high above all things which are or can be conceived outside Himself [can. 1-4].

You wrote: “God does not protect us from all evils…”
A. So you think we should not believe what the Church is teaching then that God does?

You wrote: “We are DEPRIVED of those gifts.”
A. Yes, we have no right to a gift.

You wrote: “Also, it doesn’t explain why God let the snake into the Garden.”
A. We are all to be tested that we may obtain our crown of victory (or not).

You wrote: “So if I’m on the wrong road, how do I find the right road?”
A. Follow the Gospel. Jesus answered that question many times. I assume you are baptised, so stay in a state of sanctifying grace and do works of charity or give donations, give prayer for others, do penance, and give witness to the faith.

 

[BobCatholic]

You wrote: “God made the rules, … free-will = 0”
A. It means natural free will to choose from certain options, not that you are God and can do anything.

So free will is in reality, reduced, and not free will. Limited to whatever God says. Limited to a few choices. If any. Now add in imperfections and we can’t even decide correctly due to imperfections, but we are held responsible for them even if we are imperfect.

You wrote of Eden: “It was outside of the jail cell known as earth outside of the Garden of Eden”
A. No it was Earth before the fall. A definition of jail is a place awaiting judgement, and they were judged in the Garden of Eden before explulsion.

So the definition of jail fits the earth outside of Eden.

You wrote: “Before: one rule. After: 17 rules plus many sub-rules And you must be perfect!”
A. Their one rule is to obey God and they fell by pride.
No, one must have the state of sanctifying grace at death, which occurs in the imperfect.

They had only one rule. Don’t eat from the tree of life.

One must be perfect. Sanctifying grace is not enough. It does not perfect you. One can have sanctifying grace and go to purgatory. Something is missing before one can get into heaven then.

You wrote: “If God loved me, he’d want me to be with him”.
A. Yes God loves you, and want’s you to be in heaven, however know if you will be or not already. What would prevent it is lack of sanctifying grace at death.

And more. Sanctifying grace gets me into purgatory. Lack of imperfections gets me into haven. One must be perfect.

God sets a horrifically high standard that I cannot reach. Not even if I ask him for help (he says no). Not even if I beg him.

Free will = 0 because God says no. God has all the choices, I don’t.

Ezekiel 33:11 “Answer them: As I live — oracle of the Lord God — I swear I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! Why should you die, house of Israel?”

And I answer “help me Lord! Fix my imperfections so I can please you.” Lord’s Answer: no.

I answer “Lord, make me perfect so I can make you happy.” Lord’s Answer: no.

So free will = 0 since it all depends on him and not on me.

You wrote: “God does not protect us from all evils…”
A. So you think we should not believe what the Church is teaching then that God does?

It says God governs all things. Not protects all things.

It says God protects. And God governs all things. Not that he does both with “all”

If God protects us from all evils, then we would never suffer. The laws of nature would be superseded.

You wrote: “We are DEPRIVED of those gifts.”
A. Yes, we have no right to a gift.

We have no right to anything with God.

Then how is God our father?

My son has every right to ask and receive what he needs. I have an obligation to provide.

I have no right to ask or receive anything I need from God. God has no obligation to provide me with anything.

So how is God father?

You wrote: “Also, it doesn’t explain why God let the snake into the Garden.”
A. We are all to be tested that we may obtain our crown of victory (or not).

God does not trust us, so tests us. It is proof that God created us imperfect and that we will fall. Guaranteed. No choice.

 

[e_c]

So free will is in reality, reduced, and not free will. Limited to whatever God says. Limited to a few choices. If any. Now add in imperfections and we can’t even decide correctly due to imperfections, but we are held responsible for them even if we are imperfect.

So the definition of jail fits the earth outside of Eden.

They had only one rule. Don’t eat from the tree of life.

One must be perfect. Sanctifying grace is not enough. It does not perfect you. One can have sanctifying grace and go to purgatory. Something is missing before one can get into heaven then.

And more. Sanctifying grace gets me into purgatory. Lack of imperfections gets me into haven. One must be perfect.

God sets a horrifically high standard that I cannot reach. Not even if I ask him for help (he says no). Not even if I beg him.

Free will = 0 because God says no. God has all the choices, I don’t.

And I answer “help me Lord! Fix my imperfections so I can please you.” Lord’s Answer: no.

I answer “Lord, make me perfect so I can make you happy.” Lord’s Answer: no.

So free will = 0 since it all depends on him and not on me.

It says God governs all things. Not protects all things.

It says God protects. And God governs all things. Not that he does both with “all”

If God protects us from all evils, then we would never suffer. The laws of nature would be superseded.

We have no right to anything with God.

Then how is God our father?

My son has every right to ask and receive what he needs. I have an obligation to provide.

I have no right to ask or receive anything I need from God. God has no obligation to provide me with anything.

So how is God father?

God does not trust us, so tests us. It is proof that God created us imperfect and that we will fall. Guaranteed. No choice.

There is some Calvinism in this post.

 

[BobCatholic]

There is some Calvinism in this post.

Calvin denied the existence of free will at all.

I say free will is a cruel joke at best and non-existent at worst. So no Calvinism in there.

However, for me, I’m reduced in having free will due to my vast imperfections. If a person’s imperfections are too large, their free will reduces to zero. Calvinism does not address this.

 

[Vico]

…

Free will is a faculty of the rational soul that all humans have. Sometimes actions are not voluntary and when that is the case the person is not culpable. Catechism 1734 “Freedom makes man responsible for his acts to the extent that they are voluntary.”

You wrote: “Something is missing before one can get into heaven then.”
A. Yes, absence of attachments to creatures (due to insufficient penance before death). Also it is no longer possible to earn merit in either purgatory or heaven.

The definition of jail is also a place awaiting judgement and so Eden was that also.

One that is baptized can achieve heaven by not being in the state of sanctifying grace at the end of life. One does not have to commit mortal sin once justified (dogma of faith). The state of sanctifying grace is only lost by voluntary (free will) sin.

So if one that is baptized actually has such a degree of imperfection that there is neither free will nor the use of reason, then personal sin is not possible and so there will be no punishment from personal sin, so heaven will be certain.

Yes the Holy Trinity loves us. Catechism:
620 Our salvation flows from God’s initiative of love for us, because “he loved us and sent his Son to be the expiation for our sins” (I Jn 4:10). “God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself” (2 Cor 5:19).