Is our free choice real

[BobCatholic]

God’s love is not measured by what blessings He grants us.

Actually it is. If a human parent can shower blessings on their favorite while denying even the basics on their least favorite, the favoritism shows a lack of love of the least favorite.

When God does the same, how is it not different? Another double standard?

The greater the grace the more is expected of us. He is our Heavenly Father; our journey is one of becoming His loving children.

Then I don’t want more grace, I more temporal blessings so I can survive until God finally gets around to doing the spiritual things he cares so much about.

God cares more about the spiritual than the temporal, but leaves us in this temporal existence. I want to go home, beam me up please!!!

The fact God does not want me with him shows that God does not love me.

It is not so much an owing as it is the granting, out of love for us, a way to salvation.

I have to survive until I get there, and I don’t know if I can do it. I was not guaranteed anything, no guarantee of divine help, no guarantee of final perseverance.

You clearly have difficulty pulling out of this rut you keep digging ever deeper. But, it is through Christ that we are saved. I’ve pretty much failed at every test and have found myself asking for His mercy and forgiveness. I don’t think I’ve ever met a person who tried, but it is clear that we cannot “get 100%” except in and through Him. All we can do is to try the best we can to participate in the Church, follow His example and pray.

Precisely. There is no choice. We can’t get 100 percent. Heaven is not a choice for us, only purgatory is, if we are lucky!

Christ has fixed everything.

We are still in this jail cell. He has not fixed that.
My son still has his mental disease. He has not fixed that.
My ability to earn a living still is rickety at best. He has not fixed that.
My ability to survive until God finally does his spiritual stuff is still low. He has not fixed that.
We are not in the Garden of Eden. He has not fixed that.
We do not have to follow only one rule. He has not fixed that.

I would consider what you are going through as a challenge that is a test

A test I can’t pass and I’m doomed.

and also the sort of answer we may encounter from our prayers for healing.

The answer is “no” and the same as “I don’t love you.”

The way I see it, we have concupiscience the same way that our first parents were subject to Satan’s seduction. The confrontation with evil allows for the choice our will must make in transforming itself into love. It boils down to bringing Christ into our lives.

I see it as buggy software. God writes buggy software. The system crashes and he throws out the computer out of the computer room as a punishment. If a human being did that, you’d be like (“what is wrong with this guy”) but God does it and everything is hunkey dorey.

But, we are created as one humanity, each person individually expressing our human nature, destined to form one body in Christ, in God’s love.

We are one as if Adam sinned and we get punished. OK, then we are one.

We are not one as if Christ rocked and we don’t get back into the Garden of Eden. Now we are not one.

That’s a double standard. I don’t like that.

Adam’s sin is our sin, humanity seeking to be god, without God. Becoming one of us, sacrificing Himself and through His resurrection, He has enabled us to find true fulfillment and peace in Him.

But we have to survive somehow until then. Suicide is not an option. I want to be with God but he does not want me. How do I know? I’m still here!

 

[Vonsalza]

I think it is unfair that

• we cannot be in the Garden of Eden, paradise.
• we cannot be held to one rule
• we cannot have a personal relationship with God (very rare people can do this).

Yes, THEY sinned. Let THEM have the consequences, not us.

Whether we like it or not, we’re subjected to the situation of our parents when we were born. Both economically and physically (i.e. the drug-baby already born addicted to whatever its mother was using, genetic birth-defects, ect.).

Just like Adam and Eve and your parents, you’re judged based on what you do rather than where you started. That’s the same standard for everyone, Bob.

We have less now than in Eden and have 50,000 times more responsibility and burden. Hows is that fair?

Adam and Eve weren’t subject to the same laws of righteousness as us?

So you’re saying murder and theft were “ok”, as long as they didn’t eat of the tree?

One of the points of the story, Bob, is that if you and your wife were there rather than A&E, the very same thing would have still happened.

That was AFTER the garden of eden.

See immediately above.

Simply saying I’m wrong without actually explaining is not effective. Blithely dismissing objections does not solve the problem and is flirting with uncharity.

More importantly, Bob, is that fact that you don’t get to be “right by default”. I’m just saying that I find your argument rather biased and unconvincing. You’re right, no real good way to do that in perfect charity. Alas, apologetics

That’s why I’m here asking.

That’s my point. These forums are not The Church. Go see your priest.

I’ll try. I’m being pounded on hard by the guy downstairs.

We all suffer the same in our own way.
I hope you find what it is you’re needing.

 

[BobCatholic]

Whether we like it or not, we’re subjected to the situation of our parents when we were born. Both economically and physically (i.e. the drug-baby already born addicted to whatever its mother was using, genetic birth-defects, ect.).

Precisely.

We have no choice. Free will = 0 in this case.

Just like Adam and Eve and your parents, you’re judged based on what you do rather than where you started. That’s the same standard for everyone, Bob.

No.

I’m held temporally responsible for the sins of my ancestors. That’s why I’m in this jail cell. Adam and Eve didn’t have that standard.

Adam and Eve weren’t subject to the same laws of righteousness as us?

In the garden, they only had one rule. Don’t eat from that tree.

So you’re saying murder and theft were “ok”, as long as they didn’t eat of the tree?

Murder and theft would not have happened, since they didn’t have concupiscence. This is like prohibiting a man in a wheelchair from running a marathon. The rule doesn’t exist because it can’t be broken.

One of the points of the story, Bob, is that if you and your wife were there rather than A&E, the very same thing would have still happened.

Nope. I would not have eaten from that tree. Heck, I’d stay miles away from that tree.

Interesting how there’s another double standard.

We are there when A&E ate from the tree, but not there for

• Christ’s salvation and
• the resurrection to eternal life with Christ.

When it comes to bad and horrific things, yes, we are there. But when it comes to pleasant and nice things, nope, not allowed. Bad Bob, how dare things be consistent, logical and reasonable.

More importantly, Bob, is that fact that you don’t get to be “right by default”.

The one suffering through a particular problem is right by default, for that problem. Since every attempt I’ve made to get closer to God has failed, that is a problem for me, and I’m “right by default” when I talk about that problem.

I’m just saying that I find your argument rather biased and unconvincing.

Doesn’t work for you, but it works for me.

You’re not carrying my cross, only I am.

That’s my point. These forums are not The Church. Go see your priest.

I have yet to meet a priest or anyone for that matter who is able to answer my questions.

The only thing I can do is keep searching and trying. Nothing I can do on my own. That’s why I don’t think God loves me, I am abandoned in this orphanage.

Earth outside of Eden = orphanage, jail cell.

 

[Vico]

…

You wrote: “The Church does not address why we are held temporally responsible for the sins of our ancestors, because there is no revelation from God saying why.”
A. It does in Catechism 404 states why we suffer from it because “Adam and Eve committed a personal sin, but this sin affected the human nature that they would then transmit in a fallen state.” And also that something greater is then possible: Catechism
420 The victory that Christ won over sin has given us greater blessings than those which sin had taken from us: “where sin increased, grace abounded all the more” (Rom 5:20).

You wrote: "free will a cruel joke at best ".
A. That makes no sense. We discussed this before.

You wrote: “Unfortunately, God does not communicate. So the “no” happens and not “why””
A. God does communicate: The Father sent his word to bring us truth and His Spirit to make us holy.

You wrote: “And us being held temporally responsible for the sins of our ancestors are neither preventative nor arising from personal guilt.”
A. Resulting from the personal sin of Adam and Eve on our nature.

• “Accordingly, criminal nature [original sin] has its part in the most righteous punishment” – St. Augustine, On Nature and Grace III; Fathers of the Church * [concupiscence] “is of such a character that is the punishment from sin” – St. Augustine, On the Merits II.36; Fathers of the Church

You wrote: "Yes, there is a double standard. "
A. Not true, since that does not meet the definition. There are different people and different tests at different times however. This is not unfair.

You wrote: "God tested Adam and Eve with a simple test, and he gave them the answer beforehand. "
A. Which makes them mortally culpable. Now, a person may be invincibly ignorant so the test may be easier (no mortal consequences).

You wrote: “I see something wrong with that but can’t put my finger on it.”
A. “Wrong” as in undesirable, that you are not like God, but a creature?

The things not “fixed” as you put it are by design, that the just will be able to receive a crown of glory.

 

[fbl9]

Bob you boosted that you would have stayed miles from that tree.
I am sorry Bob but you would have eaten from that tree, as would any of us would have.
If anyone say they are without sin…
Basically by sinning we are choosing to eat the fruit.
We only have two rules to follow. It is in following these two rules that all the others are fulfilled.

 

[BobCatholic]

You wrote: “The Church does not address why we are held temporally responsible for the sins of our ancestors, because there is no revelation from God saying why.”
A. It does in Catechism 404 states why we suffer from it because “Adam and Eve committed a personal sin, but this sin affected the human nature that they would then transmit in a fallen state.” [/INDENT]

It says that we are held temporally responsible for the sins of our ancestors - but not why.

And also that something greater is then possible: Catechism

420 The victory that Christ won over sin has given us greater blessings than those which sin had taken from us: “where sin increased, grace abounded all the more” (Rom 5:20).
​

This only happens after death, while we are stuck in this jail cell, we are stuck. Romans 8:23.

You wrote: "free will a cruel joke at best ".
A. That makes no sense. We discussed this before.

So, tell me where God promised to help us overcome our sinful nature? I don’t see any place where concupiscence is healed.

You wrote: “Unfortunately, God does not communicate. So the “no” happens and not “why””
A. God does communicate: The Father sent his word to bring us truth and His Spirit to make us holy.

He doesn’t talk to me.

You wrote: “And us being held temporally responsible for the sins of our ancestors are neither preventative nor arising from personal guilt.”
A. Resulting from the personal sin of Adam and Eve on our nature.

• “Accordingly, criminal nature [original sin] has its part in the most righteous punishment” – St. Augustine, On Nature and Grace III; Fathers of the Church * [concupiscence] “is of such a character that is the punishment from sin” – St. Augustine, On the Merits II.36; Fathers of the Church

First you said this is a “consequence” trying to get around the fact I mentioned this is a punishment.

Now you quote this which proves it is a punishment.

So, now we have personal guilt per that quote above. Because you disagree with “nor arising from personal guilt” part of my statement.

And the above does not prove anything about this being preventative.

You wrote: "Yes, there is a double standard. "
A. Not true, since that does not meet the definition. There are different people and different tests at different times however. This is not unfair.

Humanity - Adam and Eve - in the Garden of Eden - one standard

Humanity - Adam and Eve - outside of the Garden of Eden - another standard.

Yes, there is a double standard.

You wrote: "God tested Adam and Eve with a simple test, and he gave them the answer beforehand. "
A. Which makes them mortally culpable. Now, a person may be invincibly ignorant so the test may be easier (no mortal consequences).

However, God created them imperfect. We went through this.

Due to imperfection, they had no choice but to fall.

You wrote: “I see something wrong with that but can’t put my finger on it.”
A. “Wrong” as in undesirable, that you are not like God, but a creature?

I don’t want to be God. That job is already taken.

I want to be with God. He does not want me.

I want a personal relationship with God. God does not want one with me.

The things not “fixed” as you put it are by design, that the just will be able to receive a crown of glory.

A crown of glory that requires me to somehow survive until I get there. A crown of glory that can’t be obtained because I’m not there.​

 

[BobCatholic]

Bob you boosted that you would have stayed miles from that tree.
I am sorry Bob but you would have eaten from that tree, as would any of us would have.
If anyone say they are without sin…
Basically by sinning we are choosing to eat the fruit.

I would not do anything to get kicked out of there. I don’t want to return to this jail cell.

In the Garden was only ONE RULE. I could easily follow that rule. Even though I am an imperfect speck of dust.

Here in this jail cell, we have tons of rules, and that’s why you say we are sinners, because there are so many rules. In addition, we are 50,000 times more imperfect than A&E, so we are less likely to be able to do this.

We only have two rules to follow. It is in following these two rules that all the others are fulfilled.

100% to 10,000% more required rules (minimum) while getting less strength and ability to do so.

God is love, and has no justice. We cannot count on the justice of God, because of love. If we count on the justice of God, we’re dead meat.

 

[Vonsalza]

Precisely.
We have no choice. Free will = 0 in this case.

I see it as just the opposite. You didn’t pick where you were placed for the beginning of the race, but you sure get to pick how hard and fast you’ll run.

I don’t argue that free will is unlimited, but neither do I argue that it is eliminated. You just have to look out your front door to refute that claim, as you chose to look out your front door.

I’m held temporally responsible for the sins of my ancestors.

CCC 405 Although it is proper to each individual, original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam’s descendants.

Nope. I would not have eaten from that tree. Heck, I’d stay miles away from that tree.

396 God created man in his image and established him in his friendship. A spiritual creature, man can live this friendship only in free submission to God. The prohibition against eating “of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil” spells this out: "for in the day that you eat of it, you shall die."276 The "tree of the knowledge of good and evil"277 symbolically evokes the insurmountable limits that man, being a creature, must freely recognize and respect with trust. Man is dependent on his Creator, and subject to the laws of creation and to the moral norms that govern the use of freedom.
397 Man, tempted by the devil, let his trust in his Creator die in his heart and, abusing his freedom, disobeyed God’s command. This is what man’s first sin consisted of.278 All subsequent sin would be disobedience toward God and lack of trust in his goodness.

If you’ve ever sinned then no, you didn’t stay “miles away from that tree”. You ate of it yourself.

When it comes to bad and horrific things, yes, we are there.

Because they occur solely as a result of our free will to reject God.

But when it comes to pleasant and nice things, nope, not allowed. Bad Bob, how dare things be consistent, logical and reasonable.

So you’re saying that we can’t do good? Am I understanding this correctly???

The one suffering through a particular problem is right by default, for that problem. Since every attempt I’ve made to get closer to God has failed, that is a problem for me, and I’m “right by default” when I talk about that problem.

Even as your own goalposts may require adjusting? Come, now.

I have yet to meet a priest or anyone for that matter who is able to answer my questions.

As sympathetically as I can, Bob - your questions aren’t new. They’re as old a the OT itself.

They’ve been answered over and over. The usual hang-up is that one may not like the answer because it doesn’t require a change in God. It requires a change in yourself.

Nothing I can do on my own.

This paradigm is likely your problem.

Earth outside of Eden = orphanage, jail cell.

I share it too. Eden is gone.

 

[BobCatholic]

I see it as just the opposite. You didn’t pick where you were placed for the beginning of the race, but you sure get to pick how hard and fast you’ll run.

I have no choice if I’m even in the race.
I have no choice if I’m able to run.
I have no choice if I can even make it to the finish line. There is no guaranteed final perseverance.
I have no choice if I can even get a prize at the end of the race. With my bad luck, I’ll find out I ran the race and found out “oops, you forgot detail #132,309,404 and elevator down.”

I don’t argue that free will is unlimited, but neither do I argue that it is eliminated. You just have to look out your front door to refute that claim, as you chose to look out your front door.

I cannot choose to have a personal relationship with God if He refuses it.
I cannot choose to go to heaven if God does not provide me the way - and a the only way is a personal relationship with Christ, something I cannot have.

CCC 405 Although it is proper to each individual, original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam’s descendants.

We are not at fault, I agree.
However, we are held temporally responsible for the sins of our ancestors.

If you’ve ever sinned then no, you didn’t stay “miles away from that tree”. You ate of it yourself.

I have no choice to eat of the tree. Therefore, it is impossible for me to break that one rule, since I never was in the garden.

Had I been in the garden, knowing what I know now, I would never even be anywhere near it. That is one rule I could follow, despite the humongous amount of imperfection that is me.

I don’t have that choice. I am held to a different standard, a double standard.

Because they occur solely as a result of our free will to reject God.

People don’t have to reject God to have horrific things to happen to them.

Does these things sound familiar? “Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachtani?” “Lord, if this is how you treat your friends, no wonder you have so few.”

So you’re saying that we can’t do good? Am I understanding this correctly???

I’m saying there is a double standard. For horrific things, we are there. For pleasant things, we are not allowed there.

If you disagree, please show me the what time is the next flight to the Garden of Eden.

Even as your own goalposts may require adjusting? Come, now.

The goalposts are moved too far away from me. I cannot have a personal relationship with God, not through any choice of my own. Every attempt I have made has failed.

As sympathetically as I can, Bob - your questions aren’t new. They’re as old a the OT itself.

There is no revelation about why we are held temporally responsible for the sins of our ancestors. None. No scripture. No Tradition. No Church teaching.

The Church does say we are held temporally responsible for the sins of our ancestors, but not why.

They’ve been answered over and over. The usual hang-up is that one may not like the answer because it doesn’t require a change in God. It requires a change in yourself.

The only change in me is that I must become a monk to be acceptable by God. God cannot accept me as a layman.

This paradigm is likely your problem.

This paradigm is Church teaching. Or did you forget this?

Can I please God without the aid of his grace? No.
Can I please God through my own effort only? No.

I share it too. Eden is gone.

So, there is no choice. Yet I am held temporally responsible for the choices made by others.

 

[Vico]

…

You wrote: “It says that we are held temporally responsible for the sins of our ancestors - but not why.” and also “Yes, there is a double standard.”
A. Try using standard definitions, and rephrase:

• why, noun 1. a reason or explanation.
• double standard, noun, a rule or principle that is unfairly applied in different ways to different people or groups.

Double standard involves unfairness and this is not the case.

You wrote: “This only happens after death, while we are stuck in this jail cell, we are stuck. Romans 8:23.” and "So, tell me where God promised to help us overcome our sinful nature? "
A. Not after death but grace is given during our live in actual and sanctifying grace that with our cooperation we will be saved. Catholic Enclyopedia:
The Council of Trent (Sess. V, e.v.) defines that by the grace of baptism the guilt of original sin is completely remitted and does not merely cease to be imputed to man. As to concupiscence the council declares that it remains in those that are baptized in order that they may struggle for the victory, but does no harm to those who resist it by the grace of God, and that it is called sin by St. Paul, not because it is sin formally and in the proper sense, but because it sprang from sin and incites to sin.

Ming, J. (1908). Concupiscence. In The Catholic Encyclopedia. New York: Robert Appleton Company. newadvent.org/cathen/04208a.htm

You wrote: “He doesn’t talk to me.”
A. It is reasonable to hear God as your conscience.

You wrote: "First you said this is a “consequence” trying to get around the fact I mentioned this is a punishment. Now you quote this which proves it is a punishment. "
A. Not the first time. We have discussed this before that there are different senses of the word punishment.

You wrote: So, now we have personal guilt per that quote above. Because you disagree with “nor arising from personal guilt” part of my statement."
A. The Church teaches that original sin does not entail personal guilt. Original sin is analogical sin.

You wrote: “And the above does not prove anything about this being preventative.”
A. I did not comment on everything there. We are not due preternatural or supernatural gifts, rather God gives us simple human nature. However, suffering that results from sin does tend to guide one away from repeating it.

You wrote: “Due to imperfection, they had no choice but to fall.”
A. That is contrary to the dogmas of the Church.

You wrote: “I don’t want to be God. That job is already taken.”
A. Only envious of Adam and Eve then?

You wrote: “A crown of glory that requires me to somehow survive until I get there. A crown of glory that can’t be obtained because I’m not there.”
A. You claim to know the future then.

 

[BobCatholic]

You wrote: “It says that we are held temporally responsible for the sins of our ancestors - but not why.” and also “Yes, there is a double standard.”
A. Try using standard definitions, and rephrase:

• why, noun 1. a reason or explanation.
• double standard, noun, a rule or principle that is unfairly applied in different ways to different people or groups.

Double standard involves unfairness and this is not the case.

It most definitely is the case!

Adam and Eve do the crime and we do the time. Definitely unfair!

And you didn’t explain how the double standards are not double standards.

Humanity - Adam and Eve - in the Garden of Eden - one standard

Humanity - Adam and Eve - outside of the Garden of Eden - another standard.

You wrote: “This only happens after death, while we are stuck in this jail cell, we are stuck. Romans 8:23.” and "So, tell me where God promised to help us overcome our sinful nature? "
A. Not after death but grace is given during our live in actual and sanctifying grace that with our cooperation we will be saved. Catholic Enclyopedia:

The Council of Trent (Sess. V, e.v.) defines that by the grace of baptism the guilt of original sin is completely remitted and does not merely cease to be imputed to man. As to concupiscence the council declares that it remains in those that are baptized in order that they may struggle for the victory, but does no harm to those who resist it by the grace of God, and that it is called sin by St. Paul, not because it is sin formally and in the proper sense, but because it sprang from sin and incites to sin.
​

So there is no promise to overcome concupiscence. And it is harmful! Look at all the harm that concupiscence caused in the world so far. This jail cell is not a nice place.

You wrote: “He doesn’t talk to me.”
A. It is reasonable to hear God as your conscience.

Yes, but God does not do that. I’m on my own.

You wrote: "First you said this is a “consequence” trying to get around the fact I mentioned this is a punishment. Now you quote this which proves it is a punishment. "
A. Not the first time. We have discussed this before that there are different senses of the word punishment.

It is the same thing. Consequence, punishment, because GOD IMPOSED IT. Genesis 3 is the proof of that.

Y

ou wrote: So, now we have personal guilt per that quote above. Because you disagree with “nor arising from personal guilt” part of my statement."
A. The Church teaches that original sin does not entail personal guilt. Original sin is analogical sin.

So now you’re contradicting yourself. First you say there is personal guilt and then there is not. That quote must be heresy then.

You wrote: “And the above does not prove anything about this being preventative.”
A. I did not comment on everything there. We are not due preternatural or supernatural gifts, rather God gives us simple human nature. However, suffering that results from sin does tend to guide one away from repeating it.

So clearly this is not preventative, so utterly useless.

You wrote: “Due to imperfection, they had no choice but to fall.”
A. That is contrary to the dogmas of the Church.

What dogma? There is no Church dogma that said they were perfect.

They were definitely created imperfect! And imperfections caused the fall.

You wrote: “I don’t want to be God. That job is already taken.”
A. Only envious of Adam and Eve then?

Not envious. I want to grab a pillow and bop them in the head for being so stupid.

You wrote: “A crown of glory that requires me to somehow survive until I get there. A crown of glory that can’t be obtained because I’m not there.”
A. You claim to know the future then.

My statement was not a prediction or a statement of the future.

The crown can’t be obtained while I’m stuck in this jail cell. That was a statement of the present.​

 

[Vico]

…

1. You wrote: “So there is no promise to overcome concupiscence.”
   A. Not a promise, but a gift, utilizing it with the state of sanctifying grace one can remain without mortal sin.
2. You wrote, regarding conscience: “Yes, but God does not do that. I’m on my own.”
   A. You are saying you have no conscience then.
3. You wrote: “So now you’re contradicting yourself. First you say there is personal guilt and then there is not. That quote must be heresy then.” and “It is the same thing. Consequence, punishment…”.
   A. Do you know what analogy is? Catechism

404 …By yielding to the tempter, Adam and Eve committed a personal sin, but this sin affected the human nature that they would then transmit in a fallen state.294 It is a sin which will be transmitted by propagation to all mankind, that is, by the transmission of a human nature deprived of original holiness and justice. And that is why original sin is called “sin” only in an analogical sense: it is a sin “contracted” and not “committed” - a state and not an act.

1. You wrote: “So clearly this is not preventative, so utterly useless.”
   A. Preventative “…suffering that results from sin does tend to guide one away from repeating it.”
2. You wrote: “They were definitely created imperfect! And imperfections caused the fall.”
   A. The cause of the fall was free will, it was not caused by temptation.
3. You wrote: What dogma? There is no Church dogma that said they were perfect.
   You wrote before: “Due to imperfection, they had no choice but to fall.”
   Answer before:" That is contrary to the dogmas of the Church."
   A. The statement responded to was not about being imperfect (everyone is), but not having a choice. The dogma is that the Fall is a serious sin, meaning mortal, and mortal sin, we know, requires complete knowledge and complete consent, in addition to gravity. Justice is lost through mortal sin not venial sin.

Session VI, Council of Trent.

Denzinger 788
I. If anyone does not confess that the first man Adam, when he had transgressed the commandment of God in Paradise, immediately lost his holiness and the justice in which he had been established, and that he incurred through the offense of that prevarication the wrath and indignation of God and hence the death with which God had previously threatened him, and with death captivity under his power, who thenceforth “had the empire of death” [Heb. 2:14], that is of the devil, and that through that offense of prevarication the entire Adam was transformed in body and soul for the worse [see n. 174], let him be anathema.

1. You wrote: “It most definitely is the case!”
   A. God is not unfair but if perfect in all respects. Therefore there is not a double standard, since double standard involves unfairness.

 

[BobCatholic]

1. You wrote: “So there is no promise to overcome concupiscence.”
   A. Not a promise, but a gift, utilizing it with the state of sanctifying grace one can remain without mortal sin.

What is this gift? Where is the Church teaching on it? How do I get this gift?

I want to obliterate concupiscence in me.

1. You wrote, regarding conscience: “Yes, but God does not do that. I’m on my own.”
   A. You are saying you have no conscience then.

I’m imperfect. My conscience is imperfect. Therefore, I’m on my own.

Unless God has made me perfect, I cannot be perfect.

1. You wrote: “So now you’re contradicting yourself. First you say there is personal guilt and then there is not. That quote must be heresy then.” and “It is the same thing. Consequence, punishment…”.
   A. Do you know what analogy is? Catechism

Yes, “original sin” is an analogy.

But the temporal punishment is not. We are held temporally responsible for the sins of our ancestors. They did the crime, we do the time.

1. You wrote: “So clearly this is not preventative, so utterly useless.”
   A. Preventative “…suffering that results from sin does tend to guide one away from repeating it.”

How does original sin be preventative? I have no access to the tree. I have no access to the garden of eden. How can I repeat this? Impossible. Thus, this is not preventative.

1. You wrote: “They were definitely created imperfect! And imperfections caused the fall.”
   A. The cause of the fall was free will, it was not caused by temptation.

It was caused by imperfections.

1. You wrote: What dogma? There is no Church dogma that said they were perfect.
   You wrote before: “Due to imperfection, they had no choice but to fall.”
   Answer before:" That is contrary to the dogmas of the Church."
   A. The statement responded to was not about being imperfect (everyone is), but not having a choice. The dogma is that the Fall is a serious sin, meaning mortal, and mortal sin, we know, requires complete knowledge and complete consent, in addition to gravity. Justice is lost through mortal sin not venial sin.

How can there be a choice when imperfection is involved?
A naive person will always believe anything they’re told, even if it is false, that’s one reason A&E fell. The serpent told them a bunch of garbage, they believed it without thinking.

1. You wrote: “It most definitely is the case!”
   A. God is not unfair but if perfect in all respects. Therefore there is not a double standard, since double standard involves unfairness.

You have not addressed any of the double standards I listed.

Adam and Eve created with grace, we are created without grace.
Adam and Eve got to live in paradise, we don’t.
Adam and Eve had to only follow one rule in the Garden, we have dozens.
Adam and Eve got to live in the Garden of Eden, we live in a jail cell.
Adam and Eve did the crime and we do the time.
Adam and Eve did not have to be perfect to be with God. We are told to be perfect to get to heaven.
Adam and Eve could have conversations with God. Except for rare cases, we cannot. I definitely cannot!
Adam and Eve could have a personal relationship with God. Except for rare cases, most people cannot. They can have a corporate relationship with God. I can only have a corporate relationship with God, not a personal one.

 

[STT]

What is this gift? Where is the Church teaching on it? How do I get this gift?

I want to obliterate concupiscence in me.

I’m imperfect. My conscience is imperfect. Therefore, I’m on my own.

Unless God has made me perfect, I cannot be perfect.

Yes, “original sin” is an analogy.

But the temporal punishment is not. We are held temporally responsible for the sins of our ancestors. They did the crime, we do the time.

How does original sin be preventative? I have no access to the tree. I have no access to the garden of eden. How can I repeat this? Impossible. Thus, this is not preventative.

It was caused by imperfections.

How can there be a choice when imperfection is involved?
A naive person will always believe anything they’re told, even if it is false, that’s one reason A&E fell. The serpent told them a bunch of garbage, they believed it without thinking.

You have not addressed any of the double standards I listed.

**Adam and Eve created with grace, we are created without grace.
Adam and Eve got to live in paradise, we don’t.
Adam and Eve had to only follow one rule in the Garden, we have dozens.
Adam and Eve got to live in the Garden of Eden, we live in a jail cell.
Adam and Eve did the crime and we do the time.
Adam and Eve did not have to be perfect to be with God. We are told to be perfect to get to heaven.
Adam and Eve could have conversations with God. Except for rare cases, we cannot. I definitely cannot!
Adam and Eve could have a personal relationship with God. Except for rare cases, most people cannot. They can have a corporate relationship with God. I can only have a corporate relationship with God, not a personal one.
**

Interesting! Discrimination for no reason.

 

[Vonsalza]

You have not addressed any of the double standards I listed.

Adam and Eve created with grace, we are created without grace.
Adam and Eve got to live in paradise, we don’t.
Adam and Eve had to only follow one rule in the Garden, we have dozens.
Adam and Eve got to live in the Garden of Eden, we live in a jail cell.
Adam and Eve did the crime and we do the time.
Adam and Eve did not have to be perfect to be with God. We are told to be perfect to get to heaven.
Adam and Eve could have conversations with God. Except for rare cases, we cannot. I definitely cannot!
Adam and Eve could have a personal relationship with God. Except for rare cases, most people cannot. They can have a corporate relationship with God. I can only have a corporate relationship with God, not a personal one.

Respectfully, Bob, I’m not sure you realize what a “double standard” actually is. Thus why no one can really answer what you’re looking for.

It is NOT “I get to experience the same starting conditions as everyone else”.

What it IS is “a rule or principle that is unfairly applied in different ways to different people or groups.”

So one by one:
“Adam and Eve created with grace, we are created without grace.”
CCC 2001 The preparation of man for the reception of grace is already a work of grace. This latter is needed to arouse and sustain our collaboration in justification through faith, and in sanctification through charity. God brings to completion in us what he has begun, "since he who completes his work by cooperating with our will began by working so that we might will it:"50

“Adam and Eve got to live in paradise, we don’t./Adam and Eve got to live in the Garden of Eden, we live in a jail cell.”
-Simply not a double-standard. Disparity in living condition, which is not promised. Anywhere. I have cousins born into a million-dollar per year household. I was not. As equality in starting conditions is not promised me, I don’t see this as some double-standard.

“Adam and Eve had to only follow one rule in the Garden, we have dozens.”
-No, it all boils down to one rule: submit to God.
CCC 396 God created man in his image and established him in his friendship. A spiritual creature, man can live this friendship only in free submission to God. The prohibition against eating “of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil” spells this out: "for in the day that you eat of it, you shall die."276 The "tree of the knowledge of good and evil"277 symbolically evokes the insurmountable limits that man, being a creature, must freely recognize and respect with trust. Man is dependent on his Creator, and subject to the laws of creation and to the moral norms that govern the use of freedom.

“Adam and Eve did the crime and we do the time.”
-The wage of sin is death. You’d like to argue they didn’t die? You’d like to argue that you don’t share in their crime every time you sin?

“Adam and Eve did not have to be perfect to be with God. We are told to be perfect to get to heaven.”
-The garden was a sinless paradise. Yes, they were “perfect”. You’re just mistaken here.

“Adam and Eve could have conversations with God. Except for rare cases, we cannot. I definitely cannot!
Adam and Eve could have a personal relationship with God. Except for rare cases, most people cannot. They can have a corporate relationship with God. I can only have a corporate relationship with God, not a personal one.”
-And in both cases, this temporal reality was severed when they were exiled by sin, no? And Adam and Eve had a corporal relationship with God the second Eve showed up.

---

Fact of the matter, Bob, is that Adam and Eve got “us” kicked out of the garden. And we validate that punishment every time we personally sin. No double-standard at all. CCC 396.

Adam and Eve aren’t the problem. You are. And I am. We prove the punishment as just with literally every sin freely done.

 

[Vonsalza]

Interesting! Discrimination for no reason.

Why do you assume God owes us all equal starting positions? Especially when that isn’t reality and there’s no fiat from God that would lead me to think it should be?

 

[BobCatholic]

Why do you assume God owes us all equal starting positions? Especially when that isn’t reality and there’s no fiat from God that would lead me to think it should be?

God owes us nothing, and is not responsible for anything. That’s why God can say no to reasonable requests and things we need, and we still have to call him a good father.

In addition, God does not give anyone equal starting positions, there are tons of double standards, as I listed.

Remember, it says there are no Jew, no Greek, in the scripture. Remember what that means? It says God rains on the saint and sinner alike. Remember what that means?

It means we are supposed to be equal. But God doesn’t treat us that way. What message does that say about our standing in the eyes of God? We clearly are not equal in his eyes.

 

[STT]

Why do you assume God owes us all equal starting positions? Especially when that isn’t reality and there’s no fiat from God that would lead me to think it should be?

Because no rational being prefers jail to home. The opposite are called masochist!

 

[Vonsalza]

God owes us nothing, and is not responsible for anything. That’s why God can say no to reasonable requests and things we need, and we still have to call him a good father.

He provided you with the very same will you use to doubt him. Some view this as the greatest of human goods.

In addition, God does not give anyone equal starting positions, there are tons of double standards, as I listed.

Again, I just don’t think you actually know what a double-standard really is… More importantly, what it isn’t.

Remember, it says there are no Jew, no Greek, in the scripture. Remember what that means? It says God rains on the saint and sinner alike. Remember what that means?

Grace and justice abound for everyone, as I understand it.

It means we are supposed to be equal.

In a way… Not necessary your way.

But God doesn’t treat us that way.

As beings with wills that will be judged for what we’ve done with them, we’re perfectly equal. Being Jew or Greek confers no advantage. And the rain falls on us all in that we all have to deal with misfortune.

No double-standard here, Bob.

What message does that say about our standing in the eyes of God? We clearly are not equal in his eyes.

No, your interpretation of these passages just isn’t very solid.

 

[BobCatholic]

Because no rational being prefers jail to home. The opposite are called masochist!

This.

I don’t want to be a masochist. Yet I’m required to be one in order to be with God.

He provided you with the very same will you use to doubt him. Some view this as the greatest of human goods.

My will is not free because I"m imperfect.

Again, I just don’t think you actually know what a double-standard really is… More importantly, what it isn’t.

So how are those not double standards? A&E got one standard, we get another.

Grace and justice abound for everyone, as I understand it.

Justice does not exist in love. If we dare to stand on justice, we’re going to hell. This is why we must beg for mercy.