Is our free choice real

[BobCatholic]

Free will is a faculty of the rational soul that all humans have.

But imperfections make free will either a cruel joke or nonexistent.

Sometimes actions are not voluntary and when that is the case the person is not culpable. Catechism 1734 “Freedom makes man responsible for his acts to the extent that they are voluntary.”

But we are still held temporally responsible for the sins of our ancestors. Even though we are not culpable at all.

You wrote: “Something is missing before one can get into heaven then.”
A. Yes, absence of attachments to creatures (due to insufficient penance before death). Also it is no longer possible to earn merit in either purgatory or heaven.

Attachments to creatures or insufficient penance are imperfections.

Those imperfections must be a venial sin since it has temporal punishment involved with it.

The definition of jail is also a place awaiting judgement and so Eden was that also.

Eden was paradise. Earth outside is not.
Eden had one rule. Earth outside has far more.
Eden had preternatural gifts. Earth outside, we have tons of imperfections.

Can’t compare the two.

We’re in a jail cell. Eden was a country club prison.

So if one that is baptized actually has such a degree of imperfection that there is neither free will nor the use of reason, then personal sin is not possible and so there will be no punishment from personal sin, so heaven will be certain.

But you contradicted what you said earlier.

Any imperfections lead to purgatory. Period. Then heaven.

Cannot be imperfect an enter heaven.

Even if not culpable, we are still punished.

Yes the Holy Trinity loves us.

Good. If The Holy Trinity loves me, they’ll want me to be with me.

Beam me up, please. I don’t want to be in this jail cell.

 

[Vico]

…

Free will is definitely not a cruel joke, which would be contrary to the attributes of God.
Free will is an attribute of the soul, even through the human may be incapable of expressing it at a particular time or for a particular habit.

You wrote: “Attachments to creatures or insufficient penance are imperfections.
Those imperfections must be a venial sin since it has temporal punishment involved with it.”
A. Sins have an effect of attachments to creatures which need to be removed through penance or purgatory. One cannot say that attachments are not sins in themselves for sin requires an voluntary act or omission.

You wrote: “Any imperfections lead to purgatory. Period. Then heaven.”
A. No, not any imperfections but rather temporal punishment that was not eliminated by penance before death. Voluntary sin is the cause not imperfection.

You wrote: “But we are still held temporally responsible for the sins of our ancestors. Even though we are not culpable at all. Even if not culpable, we are still punished.”
A. We do suffer the consequences of original sin.

“God is not unjust in punishing us on account of the sin of Adam, because original sin does not take away from us anything to which we have a strict right as human beings, but only the free gifts which God in His goodness would have bestowed on us if Adam had not sinned.” – Baltimore Catechism

Therefore as through one man sin entered into the world and through sin death, and thus death has passed unto all men because all have sinned. (Romans 5:12)

 

[laylow]

My father was an alcoholic. I believe that he had multiple mental illnesses, unfortunately that were undiagnosed, but he was too stubborn to get a diagnosis anyway. He was drunk almost all hours of the day. As a consequence, I was verbally abused by entire childhood and adolescence. But Dad demanded that we obey him, because he was my father. Fair enough, I respect the hierarchy and also my elders and definitely my parents. As time went on, Father’s day and his birthday, were obligations for us to be with him and try to accommodate him. He would always be drunk and most times talk with a defeated and depressed attitude. Other times he would outright not even acknowledge that we were trying to be there for him. This was very stressful and downright demeaning. In the meantime, my Mom is Autistic, so she had no idea how to handle the situation and it was also hard to find showing of love from her, because she had a hard time showing it. This is an abbreviated version (which I’m sure if anyone is reading this is very thankful for) but gives you a summary of the absence of love in my life. So, what does this have to do with anything?

Well, I think it exemplifies the teachings that many religions have of God’s love. Essentially it is follow my rules, or you will be forever punished beyond comprehension. How does this tie in? Well, I forgave my Dad for all that he did to us, mainly because I know the mental issues that he dealt with, but I never really LOVED him. I love his soul I guess because he is my Dad, but I have never felt love and therefore never had a relationship with him.

So, with what I see as the current teaching of God’s love, it is impossible to love someone who promises to send you to eternal punishment for not obeying his commands. You know how hard that is? I have had a terrible childhood with illness throughout. Now I sit here with chronic illness that feels me in daily chronic pain and discomfort. On top of that I have multiple mental illnesses, no family of my own and basically nothing to be motivated by. But yet, I am supposed to feel the “love?” I got news for you, I’ve never felt the love. And if that is my fault, than I guess that goes with the rest of my life, because I have felt that all the bad things that have happened in my life to be my fault. I see that Bob has many questions, and I definitely do as well, and I guess if that is my fault than, whatever, this is all unfair. I’ve always tried to be a good person and all I have seen is things getting worse and worse all of the time.

 

[BobCatholic]

Free will is definitely not a cruel joke, which would be contrary to the attributes of God.

Holding us temporally responsible for the sins of our ancestors is unjust. Unjust is contrary to the attributes of God. Yet, here we are, stuck in this jail cell.

Someone who has no responsibility for anything is not a moral actor. However, one of the attributes of God is that He is a moral actor. Yet, God is not responsible for anything.

Free will is a cruel joke at best. We have the choice of horrific suffering on a horrifically difficult road to heaven or one can just go to hell ridiculously easy. How is that free will?

Playing hard to get is not the characteristic of a loving God But yet, God plays hard to get.

There’s a lot of things that go against the characteristics of God yet they still exist.

You wrote: “Attachments to creatures or insufficient penance are imperfections.
Those imperfections must be a venial sin since it has temporal punishment involved with it.”
A. Sins have an effect of attachments to creatures which need to be removed through penance or purgatory. One cannot say that attachments are not sins in themselves for sin requires an voluntary act or omission.

A venial sin does not require the act to be voluntary. A mortal sin which is involuntary, is a venial sin.

You wrote: “Any imperfections lead to purgatory. Period. Then heaven.”
A. No, not any imperfections but rather temporal punishment that was not eliminated by penance before death. Voluntary sin is the cause not imperfection.

Now you’re contradicting yourself.
Attachments to creatures or insufficient penance are imperfections.
Sins merit temporal punishment.
Purgatory happens because of the imperfections of attachments to creatures or sufficient penance.
Purgatory is a temporal punishment for sin.
Therefore, imperfections are sins.
(though not all imperfections are sins)

You wrote: “But we are still held temporally responsible for the sins of our ancestors. Even though we are not culpable at all. Even if not culpable, we are still punished.”
A. We do suffer the consequences of original sin.

Punishment is a consequence, and this is a punishment imposed by God (Genesis 3).

“God is not unjust in punishing us on account of the sin of Adam, because original sin does not take away from us anything to which we have a strict right as human beings, but only the free gifts which God in His goodness would have bestowed on us if Adam had not sinned.” – Baltimore Catechism

So God would have given us these gifts. But why did he make the gift based on SOMEONE ELSE’S DECISION?

Free will = 0 here.

Therefore as through one man sin entered into the world and through sin death, and thus death has passed unto all men because all have sinned. (Romans 5:12)[/INDENT]

And Christ did not undo this completely, we are still here in this jail cell. We are still held temporally responsible for the sins of our ancestors.

 

[Vico]

Holding us temporally responsible for the sins of our ancestors is unjust. Unjust is contrary to the attributes of God. Yet, here we are, stuck in this jail cell.
Someone who has no responsibility for anything is not a moral actor. However, one of the attributes of God is that He is a moral actor. Yet, God is not responsible for anything.
Free will is a cruel joke at best. We have the choice of horrific suffering on a horrifically difficult road to heaven or one can just go to hell ridiculously easy. How is that free will?
Playing hard to get is not the characteristic of a loving God But yet, God plays hard to get.
There’s a lot of things that go against the characteristics of God yet they still exist.
A venial sin does not require the act to be voluntary. A mortal sin which is involuntary, is a venial sin.
Now you’re contradicting yourself.
Attachments to creatures or insufficient penance are imperfections.
Sins merit temporal punishment.
Purgatory happens because of the imperfections of attachments to creatures or sufficient penance.
Purgatory is a temporal punishment for sin.
Therefore, imperfections are sins.
(though not all imperfections are sins)
Punishment is a consequence, and this is a punishment imposed by God (Genesis 3).
So God would have given us these gifts. But why did he make the gift based on SOMEONE ELSE’S DECISION?
Free will = 0 here.
And Christ did not undo this completely, we are still here in this jail cell. We are still held temporally responsible for the sins of our ancestors.

You wrote: “Holding us temporally responsible for the sins of our ancestors is unjust.”
A. God is not unjust so this is untrue. There is no cruel joke by God. This is a dogma of faith. God did not owe us the preternatural or supernatural gifts that Adam and Eve were given. God knew they would fall. We received a simple human nature which does not have those preternatural or supernatural gifts.

You wrote: “A venial sin does not require the act to be voluntary. A mortal sin which is involuntary, is a venial sin.”
A. There is responsibility for voluntary sin which may be partial.
Catechism “1734 Freedom makes man responsible for his acts to the extent that they are voluntary.” and “1862 One commits venial sin when, * in a less serious matter, he does not observe the standard prescribed by the moral law, * or when he disobeys the moral law in a grave matter, but without full knowledge * or [when he disobeys the moral law in a grave matter, but] without complete consent.”

Catholic Encyclopedia

Venial sin is committed when the matter of the sin is light, even though the advertence of the intellect and consent of the will are full and deliberate, and when, even though the matter of the sin be grave, there is not full advertence on the part of the intellect and full consent on the part of the will.
…
Since a voluntary act and its disorder are of the essence of sin, venial sin as it is a voluntary act may be defined as a thought, word or deed at variance with the law of God.

O’Neil, A.C. (1912). Sin. In The Catholic Encyclopedia. New York: Robert Appleton Company. newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm

 

[BobCatholic]

You wrote: “Holding us temporally responsible for the sins of our ancestors is unjust.”
A. God is not unjust so this is untrue.

So why does God hold us temporally responsible for the sins of our ancestors and how is it not unjust?

God did not owe us the preternatural or supernatural gifts that Adam and Eve were given.

I’m not talking about those things.

I’m talking about living in paradise and having only one rule.

I’m also talking about how God treats people differently, which is capricious and arbitrary.

Why punish the one who didn’t commit the original sin? God clearly loved Adam and Eve more than he loved the rest of us. And God clearly does not love me.

Are you saying we are not supposed to have a personal relationship with God? Adam and Eve had that in the garden. I can’t get that.

I get it. God does not owe us anything. Not even equal treatment, or decent treatment. God can treat us like garbage and all we can say nothing. No choice. God can set up impossible standards of measurement (be perfect) and enforce them harshly, no choice.

God does not owe us anything, so he is not obligated to even follow the new covenant, right?

God has no responsibilities, and thus owes us nothing.

I am a human father. I owe my son an obligation to take care of him and his needs.
God is supposed to be a superior father, yet he has no obligation to me. None whatsoever.

So how is God our father again? Simply because he says so without actions that back it up?

We received a simple human nature which does not have those preternatural or supernatural gifts.

We received an IMPERFECT human nature that has no way of improving. God says no to getting rid of the bugs in our software.

God creates us imperfect. Those imperfections cause us to make more mistakes than if we were perfect. Where is the choice if the person has no choice but to be imperfect?

Buggy software crashes. That’s the way it is. There is no choice on this.

And if I ask God to fix my imperfections, he says no. So where’s the choice on this when God is the only one who has a choice?

You wrote: “A venial sin does not require the act to be voluntary. A mortal sin which is involuntary, is a venial sin.”
A. There is responsibility for voluntary sin which may be partial.

Read the three requirements for a mortal sin. All 3 must be in force before it is considered mortal. No free will means the default setting is venial.

 

[Vico]

…

All answered before, you just keep repeating the same questions. To express love one must have free will, to have free will means can sin, but also there must be a test to receive merit for greater glory in heaven. Adam and Eve were tested, so are we.

The harmony before the fall was due to original justice. That was lost and death occurred and by death sin. It is presumed that the descendants would have had the sanctifying grace and preternatural gifts if Adam and Eve has not lost them, but the gifts were in additions to simple human nature that we have. Their one rule was to be obedient but by pride they sinned.

Original justice was the simultaneous possession of sanctifying grace and the preternatural gifts. Sanctifying grace is restored at justification. The preternatural gifts are returned only as capacities like the ability to overcome concupiscence and after resurrection as bodily immortality and infused knowledge (regarding God and His attributes, the moral law or man’s relations to God, and the physical universe both material and spiritual).

You wrote: “No free will means the default setting is venial”
A. No, it must be voluntary to be a formal sin at all. An act that is a material sin may be formal mortal sin, formal venial sin, or no sin.

 

[BobCatholic]

All answered before, you just keep repeating the same questions. To express love one must have free will,

And if one is so imperfect that they can’t love God, game over. If God does not want to relate to someone in a way that he or she perceives as loving, game over. If God does not want to have a personal relationship with a pathetic speck of dust, game over.

Elevator down for all of them.

We have no choice when God makes a decision. None whatsoever. Free will = 0.

And no, you did not answer why we are held temporally responsible for the sins of our ancestors. All you do is repeat that we are not responsible (which is not what I said!)

"Are you saying we are not supposed to have a personal relationship with God? Adam and Eve had that in the garden. I can’t get that. " Not answered, just dismissed.

"God does not owe us anything, so he is not obligated to even follow the new covenant, right? " Not answered, just dismissed.

"So how is God our father again? Simply because he says so without actions that back it up? " Not answered, just dismissed.

C’mon dude, you’re losing your touch here.

to have free will means can sin, but also there must be a test to receive merit for greater glory in heaven. Adam and Eve were tested, so are we.

Adam and Eve were given preternatural gifts and given a first grade math test. It had a simple question and God gave them the answer ahead of time. They failed.

We are far more imperfect than they are and are given a calculus test. In addition, the pencil is broken, and the ink on the paper is written in invisible ink. Oh, and there is no desk to write on, and the school is on fire. Add to that, a deranged shooter is shooting random bullets into random classrooms.

And we’re expected to pass this 500 questions test with 100%.

How is this anywhere with 50,000 miles of just?

Their one rule was to be obedient but by pride they sinned.

They only had to not do something. That’s it.

The preternatural gifts are returned only as capacities like the ability to overcome concupiscence and after resurrection as bodily immortality and infused knowledge (regarding God and His attributes, the moral law or man’s relations to God, and the physical universe both material and spiritual).

Not on earth. Only after we are out of the jail cell. Until then, we are in this jail cell.

You wrote: “No free will means the default setting is venial”
A. No, it must be voluntary to be a formal sin at all. An act that is a material sin may be formal mortal sin, formal venial sin, or no sin.

Take a serious matter. Full knowledge. No free will. Result: Venial sin.

 

[Vico]

…

You wrote: “And no, you did not answer why we are held temporally responsible for the sins of our ancestors. All you do is repeat that we are not responsible (which is not what I said!)”
A. Actually I did so you should go back and reread. Not personally responsible, but we suffer the consequences which is what you call being held responsible, we are born with simple human nature, we are not due extra capabilities.

You wrote: “Not on earth. Only after we are out of the jail cell. Until then, we are in this jail cell.”
A. After the resurrection when our souls are reunited with our bodies. Rev. 21
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth. For the first heaven and the first earth was gone, and the sea is now no more.
2 And I John saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice from the throne, saying: Behold the tabernacle of God with men, and he will dwell with them. And they shall be his people; and God himself with them shall be their God.

You wrote: “Take a serious matter. Full knowledge. No free will. Result: Venial sin.”
A. There is no culpability for a material sin when an act is not voluntary, even for grave matter, it is not then venial. There has to be at least partial consent.

You wrote: “…so imperfect that they can’t love God, … Elevator down for all of them.”
A. If the person was baptized and did not mortally sin after that then no condemnation. There is no culpable sin of malice without it being voluntary.

You wrote: "“God does not owe us anything, so he is not obligated to even follow the new covenant, right?”
A. The new covenant is honored, which is “a promise on God’s part to confer the blessings foretold in the Sermon on the Mount and at the Last Supper, provided the followers of Christ are faithful in their generosity toward God”. (Modern Catholic Dictionary)

You wrote: “How how is God our father again?”
A. He created us and gives us salvation.

You wrote: “Are you saying we are not supposed to have a personal relationship with God?”
A. Answered before. Prayer. Catechism
2558 “Great is the mystery of the faith!” The Church professes this mystery in the Apostles’ Creed (Part One) and celebrates it in the sacramental liturgy (Part Two), so that the life of the faithful may be conformed to Christ in the Holy Spirit to the glory of God the Father (Part Three). This mystery, then, requires that the faithful believe in it, that they celebrate it, and that they live from it in a vital and personal relationship with the living and true God. This relationship is prayer.

You wrote “And we’re expected to pass this 500 questions test with 100%.” How is this anywhere with 50,000 miles of just??
A. God know who is saved, and there must be final state of sanctifying grace, no matter if one fails continuously throughout life.

 

[BobCatholic]

You wrote: “And no, you did not answer why we are held temporally responsible for the sins of our ancestors. All you do is repeat that we are not responsible (which is not what I said!)”
A. Actually I did so you should go back and reread. Not personally responsible, but we suffer the consequences which is what you call being held responsible, we are born with simple human nature, we are not due extra capabilities.

First, I don’t care about the extra capabilities. What I DO care about is that the test given is 50000 times tougher than the original test.

Adam and Eve had only 1 rule. We have lots of them. And we must die PERFECT to go to heaven. Otherwise, purgatory.
Adam and Eve got to live in paradise. We don’t
Adam and Eve had a personal relationship with God, and actually had CONVERSATIONS with him. We don’t (except for the hyper-rare cases).

Second, God took away gifts and demanded far more of us than He did with Adam and Eve. He holds us up to a standard that we cannot do. And we ask for help, and he says no.

This is a double standard. Adam and Eve had one standard, we have a different one, 50,000 times more difficult.

You wrote: “Not on earth. Only after we are out of the jail cell. Until then, we are in this jail cell.”
A. After the resurrection when our souls are reunited with our bodies. Rev. 21
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth. For the first heaven and the first earth was gone, and the sea is now no more.
2 And I John saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice from the throne, saying: Behold the tabernacle of God with men, and he will dwell with them. And they shall be his people; and God himself with them shall be their God.

Correct. On earth we’re left behind.

You wrote: “Take a serious matter. Full knowledge. No free will. Result: Venial sin.”
A. There is no culpability for a material sin when an act is not voluntary, even for grave matter, it is not then venial. There has to be at least partial consent.

Church teaching is that if only 2 out of 3 are a “yes” then the sin is venial.
If an otherwise mortal sin has no free will, it is venial.

You wrote: “…so imperfect that they can’t love God, … Elevator down for all of them.”
A. If the person was baptized and did not mortally sin after that then no condemnation. There is no culpable sin of malice without it being voluntary.

We have no culpability, yet here we are in this jail cell.
We have no culpability, we are still held temporally responsible for the sins of our ancestors.

You wrote: "“God does not owe us anything, so he is not obligated to even follow the new covenant, right?”
A. The new covenant is honored, which is “a promise on God’s part to confer the blessings foretold in the Sermon on the Mount and at the Last Supper, provided the followers of Christ are faithful in their generosity toward God”. (Modern Catholic Dictionary)

So does God owe us His compliance with the covenant? Yes or no? Is God responsible in any way shape or form in the new covenant?

You wrote: “How how is God our father again?”
A. He created us and gives us salvation.

Yes, He created us. He hasn’t give us salvation yet, we’re still here in this jail cell. Delivery is taking too long for his salvation.

You wrote: “Are you saying we are not supposed to have a personal relationship with God?”
A. Answered before. Prayer.

Prayer is a monologue to me. How can I have a conversation with God when he refuses to talk to me?

You wrote “And we’re expected to pass this 500 questions test with 100%.” How is this anywhere with 50,000 miles of just??
A. God know who is saved, and there must be final state of sanctifying grace, no matter if one fails continuously throughout life.

The double standards are what bothers me.

God creates Adam and Eve with preternatural gifts. He creates us with far less.
God created Adam and Eve in a higher state of perfection (though still woefully imperfect) and He creates us with far more imperfections.
God created Adam and Eve in paradise. He creates us in a jail cell.
God held Adam and Eve to 1 simple rule. He holds us to dozens of rules.
God did not expect Adam and Eve to perfection. God expects us to be perfect.
God tested Adam and Eve with a simple test, and he gave them the answer beforehand. We are far more imperfect than they are and are given a calculus test. In addition, the pencil is broken, and the ink on the paper is written in invisible ink. Oh, and there is no desk to write on, and the school is on fire. Add to that, a deranged shooter is shooting random bullets into random classrooms. And we must get a 100% on the test.

Double standards galore. How is this not arbitrary and capricious?

 

[AmericanFighter]

Can the choice between ecstasy (Heaven) and torment (Hell) be considered a real free choice. Is it not more “do it my way or else”.
I hope this is the right forum.
Hope all is well for everyone.

We do have a choice as to weather we will live the life that will lead to heaven or hell

 

[Vico]

…

You wrote: “Second, God took away gifts and demanded far more of us than He did with Adam and Eve. He holds us up to a standard that we cannot do. And we ask for help, and he says no.”
A. None of it is true. He did not take gifts away, Adam and Eve lost them. Descendants never received them so they were not taken away from them either. Adam and Eve lost original justice and then were expelled from the Garden of Eden, and lived the rest of their very long lives just like we do, so no, it was not easier for them, and no they had the same tests as we do without the preternatural gifts. No double standard.

He brought us salvation through Jesus Christ and the sacraments, so he says yes.

You wrote: “Church teaching is that if only 2 out of 3 are a “yes” then the sin is venial.
If an otherwise mortal sin has no free will, it is venial.”

A. No. Two out of three for material sin but not formal sin. Responsibility (culpability) is only for voluntary sin. Catechism

• 1862 One commits venial sin when, * in a less serious matter, he does not observe the standard prescribed by the moral law, * or when he disobeys the moral law in a grave matter, but without full knowledge * or [when he disobeys the moral law in a grave matter, but] without complete consent.
• 1734 Freedom makes man responsible for his acts to the extent that they are voluntary.

So one that involuntarily commits an error, is not culpable for a sin mortal or venial.

You wrote: “So does God owe us His compliance with the covenant?”
A. The new covenant is honored by God. It is “a promise on God’s part to confer the blessings foretold in the Sermon on the Mount and at the Last Supper, provided the followers of Christ are faithful in their generosity toward God”. (Modern Catholic Dictionary)

You wrote: "Prayer is a monologue to me. How can I have a conversation with God when he refuses to talk to me? "
A. That is a different question. You asked about relationship before. God is not bound to respond in the ways the we expect or hope for. Since God is all good we get what is best for us.

 

[BobCatholic]

You wrote: “Second, God took away gifts and demanded far more of us than He did with Adam and Eve. He holds us up to a standard that we cannot do. And we ask for help, and he says no.”
A. None of it is true. He did not take gifts away, Adam and Eve lost them.

How is that different?

Your statement proves that we are held temporally responsible for the sins of our ancestors. You keep denying it, but you proved it yet again.

Explain how it is not true.
God creates Adam and Eve with preternatural gifts. He creates us with far less.
God created Adam and Eve in a higher state of perfection (though still woefully imperfect) and He creates us with far more imperfections.
God created Adam and Eve in paradise. He creates us in a jail cell.
God held Adam and Eve to 1 simple rule in the garden. He holds us to dozens of rules outside of the garden.
God did not expect Adam and Eve to perfection. God expects us to be perfect.
God tested Adam and Eve with a simple test, and he gave them the answer beforehand. We are far more imperfect than they are and are given a calculus test. In addition, the pencil is broken, and the ink on the paper is written in invisible ink. Oh, and there is no desk to write on, and the school is on fire. Add to that, a deranged shooter is shooting random bullets into random classrooms. And we must get a 100% on the test.

Please explain how each and every one of these are not true without blithely dismissing them with a lack of humility. These are all double standards enforced by God and double standards are wrong.

Descendants never received them so they were not taken away from them either.

Not giving a gift and taking away a gift has the SAME EXACT RESULT. We are held temporally responsible for the sins of our ancestors.

it was not easier for them, and no they had the same tests as we do without the preternatural gifts.

Wrong.

They had only one rule in the garden. We have dozens of rules and we never had that chance.

I want to be in the garden and have one rule like they did. Double standard if I can’t.

He brought us salvation through Jesus Christ and the sacraments, so he says yes.

Every time God says no to a legitimate prayer request (like wanting to have steady employment for the first time in my life, or my son healed of his mental disease) God says no.

Salvation to Jesus Christ only comes after we die, and somehow we must survive until then. Suicide is not an option.

If God really loved us, he’s take us away now, beam me up now please.

You wrote: “Church teaching is that if only 2 out of 3 are a “yes” then the sin is venial.
If an otherwise mortal sin has no free will, it is venial.”

A. No. Two out of three for material sin but not formal sin. Responsibility (culpability) is only for voluntary sin. Catechism

• 1862 One commits venial sin when, * in a less serious matter, he does not observe the standard prescribed by the moral law, * or when he disobeys the moral law in a grave matter, but without full knowledge * or [when he disobeys the moral law in a grave matter, but] without complete consent.

• 1734 Freedom makes man responsible for his acts to the extent that they are voluntary.

So one that involuntarily commits an error, is not culpable for a sin mortal or venial.

RIght, there are sins who have no culpability, but they are still sins. Venial sins (because mortal sins cannot have no culpability)

You wrote: “So does God owe us His compliance with the covenant?”
A. The new covenant is honored by God. It is “a promise on God’s part to confer the blessings foretold in the Sermon on the Mount and at the Last Supper, provided the followers of Christ are faithful in their generosity toward God”. (Modern Catholic Dictionary)

Does not answer my question.

You wrote: "Prayer is a monologue to me. How can I have a conversation with God when he refuses to talk to me? "
A. That is a different question. You asked about relationship before. God is not bound to respond in the ways the we expect or hope for. Since God is all good we get what is best for us.

Correct, God is not bound to anything, God is not responsible for anything.

And Adam and Eve didn’t have this problem in the garden. Double standard yet again.

 

[Vico]

…
Does not answer my question.
Correct, God is not bound to anything, God is not responsible for anything.
And Adam and Eve didn’t have this problem in the garden. Double standard yet again.

1. You wrote: “Not giving a gift and taking away a gift has the SAME EXACT RESULT.”
   A. I can see where is appears to be the same, but there is no personal guilt for original sin. The Church says we can hope for the salvation of unbaptized infants that die without baptism, and for others that were not baptized, but not for those the voluntarily loose their state of sanctifying grace and die that way.
2. You wrote "Explain how it is not true? to
   1. *] “Second, God took away gifts and demanded far more of us than He did with Adam and Eve.”
      *]“He holds us up to a standard that we cannot do. And we ask for help, and he says no.”
   I answered each before. Here again:
   1. ]We do not know that they had these gifts when they were created, only sometime before the Fall. Adam and Eve lived the rest of their very long lives* after the Fall, beginning just like we do, so no, it was not easier for them, and they had the same tests as we do. No double standard.
      *]He brought us salvation through Jesus Christ and the sacraments, so he says yes.
      1. You wrote: “Your statement proves that we are held temporally responsible for the sins of our ancestors. You keep denying it, but you proved it yet again.”
         A. No, I am not denying that we suffer from the consequences of original sin, which you call being held temporally responsible for the sins of our ancestors. I use the terminology in the Catechism which I explained long ago to you: Catechism:
      405 Although it is proper to each individual,295 original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam’s descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called “concupiscence”. Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ’s grace, erases original sin and turns a man back towards God, but the consequences for nature, weakened and inclined to evil, persist in man and summon him to spiritual battle.
      Also, you ignore that fact that we are born without a state of sanctifying grace, and if we die without a state of sanctifying grace the consequences are eternal, so it is not only a temporal matter.
      1. On culpability and guilt:
         Everyone is culpable for formal mortal and venial sins, otherwise they are called only material sins. When culpable there is punishment that results. Eternal punishment can result from mortal sin and both mortal and venial sin involve temporal punishment. There is guilt for both formal mortal and formal venial sin.
      2. You wrote: "And Adam and Eve didn’t have this problem in the garden. "
         A. Adam and Eve had this problem after their Fall.
      3. You wrote: “So does God owe us His compliance with the covenant?”
         A. The new covenant is honored by God. It is “a promise on God’s part to confer the blessings foretold in the Sermon on the Mount and at the Last Supper, provided the followers of Christ are faithful in their generosity toward God”. (Modern Catholic Dictionary)
      The Baltimore Catechism No. 4 (Teachers Edition) has:
      1. Q. What do you mean by grace?
      A. By grace I mean a supernatural gift of God bestowed on us, through the merits of Jesus Christ, for our salvation.
      
      “Supernatural,” that is, above nature. “A gift”; something, therefore, that God does not owe us. He owes us nothing, strictly speaking. Health, talents, and such things are natural gifts, and belong to our nature as men; but grace is something above our nature, given to our soul. God gives it to us on account of the love He has for His Son, Our Lord, who merited it for us by dying for us. “Merits.” A merit is some excellence or goodness which entitles one to honor or reward. Grace is a help we get to do something that will be pleasing to God. When there is anything in our daily works that we cannot do alone, we naturally look for help; for example, to lift some heavy weight is only a natural act, not a supernatural act, and the help we need for it is only natural help. But if we are going to do something above and beyond our nature, and cannot do it alone, we must not look for natural, but for supernatural help; that is, the help must always be like the work to be done. Therefore all spiritual works need spiritual help, and spiritual help is grace.

 

[BobCatholic]

1. You wrote: “Not giving a gift and taking away a gift has the SAME EXACT RESULT.”
   A. I can see where is appears to be the same, but there is no personal guilt for original sin. The Church says we can hope for the salvation of unbaptized infants that die without baptism, and for others that were not baptized, but not for those the voluntarily loose their state of sanctifying grace and die that way.

I agree we have no personal guilt for original sin, and I’ve been saying that for ages.

However, we are STILL held temporally responsible for the sins of our ancestors.

1. You wrote "Explain how it is not true? to
   1. *] “Second, God took away gifts and demanded far more of us than He did with Adam and Eve.”
      *]“He holds us up to a standard that we cannot do. And we ask for help, and he says no.”

1. 
   

   I answered each before. Here again:
   

   1. ]We do not know that they had these gifts when they were created, only sometime before the Fall. Adam and Eve lived the rest of their very long lives* after the Fall, beginning just like we do, so no, it was not easier for them, and they had the same tests as we do. No double standard.
      *]He brought us salvation through Jesus Christ and the sacraments, so he says yes.

   1. 
      There was a double standard, and you ignored it, conveniently.
      
      Adam and Eve got to live in paradise. We never did.
      They had to only follow one rule to make God happy. We have to follow dozens! And MAYBE he’ll be happy!
      
      God does say NO. You will notice we STILL have concupiscence. We are still in this jail cell. People who ask are not healed. All the NOs in the world from God are still NO, despite the awesome, wonderful and blessed thing Jesus did on the cross.
      
      Christ did not fix everything. We are still here in the jail cell.
      
      God tested Adam and Eve with a simple test, and he gave them the answer beforehand. We are far more imperfect than they are and are given a calculus test. In addition, the pencil is broken, and the ink on the paper is written in invisible ink. Oh, and there is no desk to write on, and the school is on fire. Add to that, a deranged shooter is shooting random bullets into random classrooms. And we must get a 100% on the test.
      
      Why do you avoid talking about this? God holds us to a far higher standard than he ever did to Adam and Eve in the garden. Why don’t you address this double standard?
      

      1. You wrote: “Your statement proves that we are held temporally responsible for the sins of our ancestors. You keep denying it, but you proved it yet again.”
         A. No, I am not denying that we suffer from the consequences of original sin, which you call being held temporally responsible for the sins of our ancestors. I use the terminology in the Catechism which I explained long ago to you:

      Then there is no argument here. You’re just using different wording. You’re claiming that the Catechism uses different terms, and I agree, but those terms don’t mean the same thing as what I’m talking about.
      
      Consequences and punishment are the same thing in this case.
      

      Also, you ignore that fact that we are born without a state of sanctifying grace, and if we die without a state of sanctifying grace the consequences are eternal, so it is not only a temporal matter.

      People have no choice in this matter to be born without sanctifying grace. Free will = 0 here.
      

      1. You wrote: "And Adam and Eve didn’t have this problem in the garden. "
         A. Adam and Eve had this problem after their Fall.

      Irrelevant. The double standard existed before the fall. Are you saying that their corruption solved the corruption of the original double standard?
      

      1. You wrote: “So does God owe us His compliance with the covenant?”
         A. The new covenant is honored by God. It is “a promise on God’s part to confer the blessings foretold in the Sermon on the Mount and at the Last Supper, provided the followers of Christ are faithful in their generosity toward God”. (Modern Catholic Dictionary)

      A yes or no would have sufficed. Somehow you want to avoid saying that God owes us something.
      
      You have not dealt with the other double standards:
      God creates Adam and Eve with preternatural gifts. He creates us with far less.
      God created Adam and Eve in a higher state of perfection (though still woefully imperfect) and He creates us with far more imperfections.
      God created Adam and Eve in paradise. He creates us in a jail cell.
      God held Adam and Eve to 1 simple rule in the garden. He holds us to dozens of rules outside of the garden.
      God did not expect Adam and Eve to perfection. God expects us to be perfect.
      God tested Adam and Eve with a simple test, and he gave them the answer beforehand. We are far more imperfect than they are and are given a calculus test. In addition, the pencil is broken, and the ink on the paper is written in invisible ink. Oh, and there is no desk to write on, and the school is on fire. Add to that, a deranged shooter is shooting random bullets into random classrooms. And we must get a 100% on the test.
      
      It is clear God loved Adam and Eve far more than he loves us.

 

[Vico]

…

God did not apply a double standard because God is not unfair and a double standard is “a rule or principle that is unfairly applied in different ways to different people or groups”.

The first test was obedience which is also what we are tested for. Different conditions but still fair, for God is always just.

God does not give us what we ask for but what is best for us.

You wrote: “People have no choice in this matter to be born without sanctifying grace. Free will = 0 here.”
A. Yes, and that is not what free will refers to.

You wrote: “I agree we have no personal guilt for original sin, and I’ve been saying that for ages. However, we are STILL held temporally responsible for the sins of our ancestors.”
A. And so have I said it was personal and also used the wording of the Church all along.

You wrote: “Christ did not fix everything”
A. He did not restore the original justice of Adam and Eve, rather he died for us and instituted the sacraments. He conquered death and allowed the just into heaven. Catechism

634 "The gospel was preached even to the dead."484 The descent into hell brings the Gospel message of salvation to complete fulfilment. This is the last phase of Jesus’ messianic mission, a phase which is condensed in time but vast in its real significance: the spread of Christ’s redemptive work to all men of all times and all places, for all who are saved have been made sharers in the redemption.

You wrote: “Consequences and punishment are the same thing in this case.”
A. We discussed the meanings of punishment before. Some are preventative and others result from personal guilt.

You wrote: “A yes or no would have sufficed. Somehow you want to avoid saying that God owes us something”.
A. The Catechism says God does not owe us.

 

[Vonsalza]

There was a double standard, and you ignored it, conveniently.

Hey Bob,

I don’t see the double standard. Adam and Eve were “born” sinless; able to physically dwell with God. You and I are not, unfortunately. They sinned and The Fall happened.

Perhaps you think it unfair that we are born into this state, but I’m not sure that’s a point that can be proven. The rich child is born unto the rich, same with the poor. Same with everyone. Certainly there’s an inequality there. But whether that inequality is “unfair” - Opinions are like elbows.

They had to only follow one rule to make God happy. We have to follow dozens!

Sure, Adam and Eve lived in a period before the law was handed down. But nonetheless, the law is written on our hearts, right?

They had to struggle with the challenges of one son killing another, exile from their home, and watching creation change as a result of their sin. I think they had it pretty tough too, and were subject to pretty much the same rules that we are. Unless you don’t think murder was “against the rules” prior to Cain killing Abel, which I’m sure you don’t.

You have not dealt with the other double standards:
God creates Adam and Eve with preternatural gifts. He creates us with far less.
God created Adam and Eve in a higher state of perfection (though still woefully imperfect) and He creates us with far more imperfections.
God created Adam and Eve in paradise. He creates us in a jail cell.
God held Adam and Eve to 1 simple rule in the garden. He holds us to dozens of rules outside of the garden.
God did not expect Adam and Eve to perfection. God expects us to be perfect.
God tested Adam and Eve with a simple test, and he gave them the answer beforehand. We are far more imperfect than they are and are given a calculus test. In addition, the pencil is broken, and the ink on the paper is written in invisible ink. Oh, and there is no desk to write on, and the school is on fire. Add to that, a deranged shooter is shooting random bullets into random classrooms. And we must get a 100% on the test.

It is clear God loved Adam and Eve far more than he loves us.

I think most of your juxtapositions here are false; demonstrably so.

But that’s not the real issue here. Your crisis of faith is. To that effect, I’ll say a quick prayer for you. Please don’t look for answers to these questions outside of God’s Church. That would be akin to an infant looking for sustenance from some place other than its mother’s breast.

Stay with us Bob, we need ya.

 

[Aloysium]

. . . we are STILL held temporally responsible for the sins of our ancestors. . . Adam and Eve got to live in paradise. . . we STILL have concupiscence. . . People who ask are not healed. . . Christ did not fix everything. . . And we must get a 100% on the test. . . People have no choice in this matter to be born without sanctifying grace. Free will = 0 here. . . God owes us something. . . God loved Adam and Eve far more than he loves us.

God’s love is not measured by what blessings He grants us. The greater the grace the more is expected of us. He is our Heavenly Father; our journey is one of becoming His loving children.

It is not so much an owing as it is the granting, out of love for us, a way to salvation. From Genesis throughout scripture, to the Transfiguration, which we contemplated in this week’s Gospel reading, to the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus Christ, God demonstrates His love and reveals to us, the Way to transcendence.

We are gods only insofar as we decide our destiny participating in the glory of Gods creation. We decide what we do with what we are given.

You clearly have difficulty pulling out of this rut you keep digging ever deeper. But, it is through Christ that we are saved. I’ve pretty much failed at every test and have found myself asking for His mercy and forgiveness. I don’t think I’ve ever met a person who tried, but it is clear that we cannot “get 100%” except in and through Him. All we can do is to try the best we can to participate in the Church, follow His example and pray.

Christ has fixed everything.

I would consider what you are going through as a challenge that is a test and also the sort of answer we may encounter from our prayers for healing. It is a process in which our worlds are frequently turned upside down to enable us to know the truth, and a searing flame that will burn away everything that holds us back.

The way I see it, we have concupiscience the same way that our first parents were subject to Satan’s seduction. The confrontation with evil allows for the choice our will must make in transforming itself into love. It boils down to bringing Christ into our lives.

This would be a corollary to our having been conceived in Eden - as an ovum in the womb.

But, we are created as one humanity, each person individually expressing our human nature, destined to form one body in Christ, in God’s love. Adam’s sin is our sin, humanity seeking to be god, without God. Becoming one of us, sacrificing Himself and through His resurrection, He has enabled us to find true fulfillment and peace in Him.

To the degree that our suffering is physical or psychological, it is our duty to admit to the problem and seek help for it.

 

[BobCatholic]

God did not apply a double standard because God is not unfair and a double standard is “a rule or principle that is unfairly applied in different ways to different people or groups”.

Humanity - Adam and Eve - in the Garden of Eden - one standard

Humanity - Adam and Eve - outside of the Garden of Eden - another standard.

Yes, there is a double standard.

The first test was obedience which is also what we are tested for. Different conditions but still fair, for God is always just.

God tested Adam and Eve with a simple test, and he gave them the answer beforehand. We are far more imperfect than they are and are given a calculus test. In addition, the pencil is broken, and the ink on the paper is written in invisible ink. Oh, and there is no desk to write on, and the school is on fire. Add to that, a deranged shooter is shooting random bullets into random classrooms. And we must get a 100% on the test.

God does not give us what we ask for but what is best for us.

Unfortunately, God does not communicate. So the “no” happens and not “why”

A. Yes, and that is not what free will refers to.

We are created imperfect. Imperfections make free will a cruel joke at best or nonexistent at worst.

You wrote: “I agree we have no personal guilt for original sin, and I’ve been saying that for ages. However, we are STILL held temporally responsible for the sins of our ancestors.”
A. And so have I said it was personal and also used the wording of the Church all along.

The Church does not address why we are held temporally responsible for the sins of our ancestors, because there is no revelation from God saying why.

You wrote: “Christ did not fix everything”
A. He did not restore the original justice of Adam and Eve, rather he died for us and instituted the sacraments. He conquered death and allowed the just into heaven.

Christ did not fix our concupiscence.
Christ did not reopen the gates of the Garden of Eden, there are no flights done by United Airlines to the Garden of Eden nonstop.
Christ did not restore “one rule” that they had to follow to make God satisfied.
Christ did not get us out of this jail cell.

You wrote: “Consequences and punishment are the same thing in this case.”
A. We discussed the meanings of punishment before. Some are preventative and others result from personal guilt.

And us being held temporally responsible for the sins of our ancestors are neither preventative nor arising from personal guilt.

You wrote: “A yes or no would have sufficed. Somehow you want to avoid saying that God owes us something”.
A. The Catechism says God does not owe us.

Precisely.

God owes us nothing. God has no obligations to anyone. God has no responsibility to anyone.

But on the other hand we do.

The weakest have responsibility but no power. God has power but no responsibility.

I see something wrong with that but can’t put my finger on it.

 

[BobCatholic]

Hey Bob,

I don’t see the double standard. Adam and Eve were “born” sinless; able to physically dwell with God. You and I are not, unfortunately. They sinned and The Fall happened.

Perhaps you think it unfair that we are born into this state, but I’m not sure that’s a point that can be proven. The rich child is born unto the rich, same with the poor. Same with everyone. Certainly there’s an inequality there. But whether that inequality is “unfair” - Opinions are like elbows.

I think it is unfair that

• we cannot be in the Garden of Eden, paradise.
• we cannot be held to one rule
• we cannot have a personal relationship with God (very rare people can do this).

Yes, THEY sinned. Let THEM have the consequences, not us.

Sure, Adam and Eve lived in a period before the law was handed down. But nonetheless, the law is written on our hearts, right?

The law is horrifically difficult to follow.

We have less now than in Eden and have 50,000 times more responsibility and burden. Hows is that fair?

They had to struggle with the challenges of one son killing another, exile from their home, and watching creation change as a result of their sin. I think they had it pretty tough too, and were subject to pretty much the same rules that we are. Unless you don’t think murder was “against the rules” prior to Cain killing Abel, which I’m sure you don’t.

That was AFTER the garden of eden.

The double standard I was talking about BEFORE the Garden versus after the garden.

I think most of your juxtapositions here are false; demonstrably so.

Simply saying I’m wrong without actually explaining is not effective. Blithely dismissing objections does not solve the problem and is flirting with uncharity.

Please don’t look for answers to these questions outside of God’s Church.

That’s why I’m here asking.

To me, Atheism is not an option. I know God exists. However, Deism has a nice siren song and the beat is great to dance to. It is a struggle to not go down that road.

Stay with us Bob, we need ya.

I’ll try. I’m being pounded on hard by the guy downstairs.