Is our free choice real

[BobCatholic]

Respectfully, Bob, I’m not sure you realize what a “double standard” actually is. Thus why no one can really answer what you’re looking for.

What am I looking for?

Three tickets for a flight to the Garden of Eden so I can take my family there, and be able to live with one rule and have a personal relationship with God.

None of those are possible.

What it IS is “a rule or principle that is unfairly applied in different ways to different people or groups.”

Precisely.

But you dance around the “unfair” part declaring unfair things fair.

So one by one:
“Adam and Eve created with grace, we are created without grace.”
CCC 2001 The preparation of man for the reception of grace is already a work of grace. This latter is needed to arouse and sustain our collaboration in justification through faith, and in sanctification through charity. God brings to completion in us what he has begun, "since he who completes his work by cooperating with our will began by working so that we might will it:"50

Preparing someone to get grace is not the same as actually getting grace.

In addition, preparing people to get food is not the same as actually feeding them.

“Adam and Eve got to live in paradise, we don’t./Adam and Eve got to live in the Garden of Eden, we live in a jail cell.”
-Simply not a double-standard. Disparity in living condition, which is not promised. Anywhere. I have cousins born into a million-dollar per year household. I was not. As equality in starting conditions is not promised me, I don’t see this as some double-standard.

Yes, nothing is promised in life except the cross. God never promised anything good in our lives. Nothing is guaranteed.

However, God created mankind to live in the Garden of Eden. Otherwise, when God told A&E “be fruitful and multiply” - THAT is a blessing in the garden - but outside of the garden it is a cruel joke, since God guarantees the burdens but not the ability to carry them. Scales are out of balance.

“Adam and Eve had to only follow one rule in the Garden, we have dozens.”
-No, it all boils down to one rule: submit to God.

Adam and Eve had many doors to sin closed. Murder was not an option. From who are they going to steal from? Who would they commit adultery with? Yes, those are sins, but their beautiful situation prevented them from doing many sins. So they had only ONE sin they could do - eat the fruit of the tree.

On the other hand, not only are the doors open to other sins, they’re opened by other people who are trying to drag us in.

This is a double standard and it fits the definition of one.

“Adam and Eve did the crime and we do the time.”
-The wage of sin is death. You’d like to argue they didn’t die? You’d like to argue that you don’t share in their crime every time you sin?

If I were created perfect, I would not want to sin. God did not create me perfect and didn’t create them perfect.

God writes buggy code and the software crashes. God, the Great Programmer then throws the computer out of the computer lab. If a human did this, what would you think of them? God does it and it is OK. Double standard.

“Adam and Eve did not have to be perfect to be with God. We are told to be perfect to get to heaven.”
-The garden was a sinless paradise. Yes, they were “perfect”. You’re just mistaken here

.

No, they were not perfect. They were created with the imperfections of pridefulness, naiveté, fear and/or stupidity. One or more imperfections. Buggy code.

“Adam and Eve could have conversations with God. Except for rare cases, we cannot. I definitely cannot!
Adam and Eve could have a personal relationship with God. Except for rare cases, most people cannot. They can have a corporate relationship with God. I can only have a corporate relationship with God, not a personal one.”
-And in both cases, this temporal reality was severed when they were exiled by sin, no? And Adam and Eve had a corporal relationship with God the second Eve showed up.

Hello?

A&E STARTED with the personal relationship with God. We in this jail cell don’t. Double standard. Tap dance around that a little please.

Fact of the matter, Bob, is that Adam and Eve got “us” kicked out of the garden. And we validate that punishment every time we personally sin. No double-standard at all. CCC 396.

God creates them imperfect. Holds them to one rule. The software crashes and instead of saying “oops, I should rewrite the code” he says “these idiots are out of here.”

God creates us FAR MORE IMPERFECT. Holds us to dozens of rules. So, not only are we worse off than A&E, we are held to an impossibly high standard - BE PERFECT.

This double standard is so loud, for some reason you can’t hear it.

Adam and Eve aren’t the problem. You are. And I am. We prove the punishment as just with literally every sin freely done.

I am imperfect. I have buggy software. I beg the Great Programmer to fix my code. He says no. So I screw up.

God is responsible for nothing. God has all power.
I am held responsible for everything. I have no power.
THIS IS UNFAIR.

Double standard.

Adam and Eve were given preternatural gifts and given a first grade math test. It had a simple question and God gave them the answer ahead of time. They failed.

We are far more imperfect than they are and are given a calculus test. In addition, the pencil is broken, and the ink on the paper is written in invisible ink. Oh, and there is no desk to write on, and the school is on fire. Add to that, a deranged shooter is shooting random bullets into random classrooms.

Double standard!

 

[Vonsalza]

What am I looking for? Three tickets for a flight to the Garden of Eden…

As you’ve exercised your will to sin just like A&E, the Burning Bush wouldn’t permit you entry.

But you dance around the “unfair” part declaring unfair things fair.

And you flatly ignore the “rule or principle” part and try to erroneously conflate it with your environment.

Preparing someone to get grace is not the same as actually getting grace.

Again, CCC 2001 The preparation of man for the reception of grace is already a work of grace. Your objection seems pretty refuted here.

Yes, nothing is promised in life except the cross. God never promised anything good in our lives. Nothing is guaranteed.

Then some folks enjoying a living situation that you’d prefer is not evidence of a double standard. The case should rest at this point.

God guarantees the burdens but not the ability to carry them. Scales are out of balance.

Matter of perspective rather than any real fact. We were exiled by our will, now we must use our will to doggedly provide for them. Seems pretty fair to me.

From who are they going to steal from? Who would they commit adultery with?

So not only do you want to return to Eden, you want no one else to accompany you and yours? When you expand your desired solution to be inclusive of other people, we both see the breakdown here.

On the other hand, not only are the doors open to other sins, they’re opened by other people who are trying to drag us in.

This is a double standard and it fits the definition of one.

It seems you’ve forgotten the serpent “dragging” Eve? Again, double-standard dismissed.

If I were created perfect, I would not want to sin.

As a man who has formally studied logic in my collegiate glory days, you’ve not made an actual argument here but rather an axiomatic declaration. The “perfect” cannot rebel? I disagree. Rebellion is a function of will, not sinlessness. The devil fell, Adam and Eve sinned, the devil tempted Christ. Your assertion here doesn’t see too reasonable here.

God writes buggy code and the software crashes. God, the Great Programmer then throws the computer out of the computer lab. If a human did this, what would you think of them? God does it and it is OK. Double standard.

You’ve screwed up pretty severely here with this false equivalency.

You are an executable running in a determined, programmed way that only went awry because God made a mistake???

First, you’ve been given the ultimate gift of will. You can decide things independently of God. So the program comparison “crashes” at that point.

Second, God wrote an error into your “code”? The omnipotence and omniscience of God is rejected by your claim because God apparently can’t program us correctly.

Third, why would the perfect sacrifice of Christ exist with God prior to creation if his prime functions as sacrifice and savior were only possible by unforeseen accident? And if the “accident” was foreseen by the creator, then it’s not really an accident, is it?

A&E STARTED with the personal relationship with God. We in this jail cell don’t. Double standard. Tap dance around that a little please.

It’s only a double-standard if there is a divine “rule or principle” that states that you get to start at the same place.

Sorry, there isn’t.

God creates us FAR MORE IMPERFECT.

No he doesn’t. Just like A&E, your first sin is a function of your own will in the face of a temptation. You think babies sin? Of course not.

This double standard is so loud, for some reason you can’t hear it.

No, you just have a misconceptions on what constitutes a double-standard and what you think God owes you as a starting point. “Unequal” does not mean “unfair”.

I am imperfect. I have buggy software. I beg the Great Programmer to fix my code. He says no. So I screw up.

Your failures are your own. My failures are mine.

God is responsible for nothing. God has all power.
I am held responsible for everything. I have no power.
THIS IS UNFAIR.

Double standard.

I imagine that God is responsible for the existence of creation itself. That’s not quite “nothing”. And you are responsible for your own deeds. That’s not quite “everything”. And that is a tremendous power when you wish to stop bellyaching over your self-perceived misfortune and try to create something good with your deeds.

You’re not God. There is an equality there. But you and God don’t live under the same standard because you’re not the same thing.

I assure you, you’re not. Neither am I. The creature is inferior to the creator.

Adam and Eve were given preternatural gifts and given a first grade math test. It had a simple question and God gave them the answer ahead of time. They failed.

You and I failed the test too.

We are far more imperfect than they are

Any additional imperfection we have is by our own choice. The world is fallen and stained with sin thanks to them, but it becomes even worse thanks to us.

You’re not qualified to recolonize Eden, Bob. Neither am I. We are disqualified by our own deeds.

 

[Vonsalza]

My will is not free because I"m imperfect.

You’ve got the tail wagging the dog here. You’re imperfect because of your free will.

So how are those not double standards? A&E got one standard, we get another.

Same standard. Submit to God.

Justice does not exist in love.

I rather think it does.

 

[Vico]

…

You wrote: “What is this gift? Where is the Church teaching on it? How do I get this gift?”
A. I gave you the teaching. It is sanctifying grace.

You wrote “But the temporal punishment is not.”
A. Analogical sin results in analogical punishment for sin.

You wrote: “How does original sin be preventative? I have no access to the tree.”
A. It is not necessary, you have access to sanctifying grace.

You wrote: “It was caused by imperfections. How can there be a choice when imperfection is involved?”
A. It is a dogma of the Church that they had free will and fell through mortal sin.

There is no double standard it would require unfair application by definition and that is not the case.

Also it is not a teaching of the Church that Adam and Eve were created with grace, only that they had the state of sanctifying grace before the fall.

 

[BobCatholic]

As you’ve exercised your will to sin just like A&E, the Burning Bush wouldn’t permit you entry.

I’m imperfect, and my imperfections cause me to sin. I’ve used what little free will I had to overcome mortal sin and have stalled out unable to improve myself further. Any sins now, are based on imperfections.

And you flatly ignore the “rule or principle” part and try to erroneously conflate it with your environment.

What do you mean?

You ignore the “unfair” part. How is it fair for us to be held temporally responsible for the sins of our ancestors? They did the crime, we do the time.

Again, CCC 2001 The preparation of man for the reception of grace is already a work of grace. Your objection seems pretty refuted here.

How is it a “work of grace” if the grace is not received to overcome one’s imperfections?

Then some folks enjoying a living situation that you’d prefer is not evidence of a double standard. The case should rest at this point.

Some folks living a better life is proof that God loves them more than he loves me.

Matter of perspective rather than any real fact. We were exiled by our will, now we must use our will to doggedly provide for them. Seems pretty fair to me.

Hello! Show me where God guarantees that we can carry our burdens?

Last time I checked, the Church says that the “health and wealth” gospel is heresy.

So not only do you want to return to Eden, you want no one else to accompany you and yours? When you expand your desired solution to be inclusive of other people, we both see the breakdown here.

Since it is impossible to go back to Eden, be subject to one rule, and have a personal relationship with God, it doesn’t matter. As I mentioned, I asked when is the next flight to the Garden of Eden. Flights indicate other people are going too, so your objection is wrong.

It seems you’ve forgotten the serpent “dragging” Eve? Again, double-standard dismissed.

A&E were created with the imperfection of naiveté. Thus, they believe anything anyone tells them. Serpent tells them lies, they believed it without thinking.

How do they have free will if they had no choice but to believe anything anyone told them due to the imperfection of naiveté?

As a man who has formally studied logic in my collegiate glory days, you’ve not made an actual argument here but rather an axiomatic declaration. The “perfect” cannot rebel? I disagree. Rebellion is a function of will, not sinlessness. The devil fell, Adam and Eve sinned, the devil tempted Christ. Your assertion here doesn’t see too reasonable here.

A&E were not perfect, so your conclusion falls flat on its face.
The devil was not perfect, he had the imperfection of pride, again, splat goes that statement.
Christ, because he was perfect, overcame the devil.

First, you’ve been given the ultimate gift of will. You can decide things independently of God. So the program comparison “crashes” at that point.

A will that has buggy code = crash. The comparison still continues unscathed.

Second, God wrote an error into your “code”? The omnipotence and omniscience of God is rejected by your claim because God apparently can’t program us correctly.

God COULD program us correctly, he chose not to.

God COULD have let us back into the Garden of Eden thus treating people with decency instead of putting us in a jail cell. He chose not to.

God COULD have healed my son of his mental disease after tons of praying from me. He chose not to.

God COULD have provided me with stable employment after tons of praying from me. He chose not to.

Not all of God’s decisions are good for us.

Third, why would the perfect sacrifice of Christ exist with God prior to creation if his prime functions as sacrifice and savior were only possible by unforeseen accident? And if the “accident” was foreseen by the creator, then it’s not really an accident, is it?

If Christ’s sacrifice were perfect, it would have resolved the temporal punishment that is imposed by us. That hasn’t happened. We are still held temporally responsible for the sins of our ancestors.

In fact, St. Paul writes that there is something lacking in the sufferings of Christ.

It’s only a double-standard if there is a divine “rule or principle” that states that you get to start at the same place.

Ah, so you are saying we have no right whatsoever to a personal relationship with God. Well, if you are right, I might as well give up on life right now, as there is no point in even trying to get closer to God anymore. God clearly does not love me, does not want me, and there’s nothing I can do about that.

No he doesn’t. Just like A&E, your first sin is a function of your own will in the face of a temptation.

Wrong. We are far more imperfect that A&E. If we were just as good as they were, we’d be in the Garden. Hence, how God treats us, is an indication of how much he loves us (which is less than A&E) and also that we are far more imperfect than A&E.

You think babies sin? Of course not.

Not yet. They are imperfect and will eventually sin. It is a matter of time. May take 7 years or 5 years depending on when they reach the age of reason.

 

[BobCatholic]

No, you just have a misconceptions on what constitutes a double-standard and what you think God owes you as a starting point. “Unequal” does not mean “unfair”.

This is beyond unequal, it is definitely unfair.

You didn’t bother to answer how unequal the situation is comparing A&E in the garden and us now.

Your failures are your own. My failures are mine.

Precisely.

I am responsible for my actions. God is not responsible for anything.
I have no power, and God has all power.

No power but all responsibility = slavery. We are nothing but slaves.

I imagine that God is responsible for the existence of creation itself. That’s not quite “nothing”.

Did he create creation? Yes. Is he responsible for it? No.

Let’s put this to the test.

I create a baby with my wife. Am I responsible for him? Yes. But God gets the credit for creating him. Now, does God guarantee I can provide for him? Nope.

God is not responsible for anything or anyone.

And you are responsible for your own deeds. That’s not quite “everything”. And that is a tremendous power when you wish to stop bellyaching over your self-perceived misfortune and try to create something good with your deeds.

Responsible, but have no power to do anything.

You’re not God. There is an equality there.

I don’t want to be God. I don’t want the job.

But you and God don’t live under the same standard because you’re not the same thing.

God has no responsibilities.

You and I failed the test too.

And there was no surprise.

I’m also not surprised you ignored the rest of my statement.

I made a very big point. You ignored it.

Any additional imperfection we have is by our own choice.

I did not choose to have my son get a mental disease. Our genes were healthy and normal. His genes were scrambled. Not by my choice or my wife’s choice.

I did not choose to have an employment situation Doesn’t matter if I am law abiding, hard working, have a great reputation in my field, get multiple degrees and multiple certifications. None of this matters. I can’t keep a job. I’ve done everything right.

You’re not qualified to recolonize Eden, Bob. Neither am I.

We’re not qualified to colonize heaven either. Too imperfect.

Because I’m not perfect, I’m not qualified for Eden either.

I’m not qualified to have a personal relationship with God. He does not want me, no matter what I do to attempt to get closer to him.

You’ve got the tail wagging the dog here. You’re imperfect because of your free will.

No, I’m imperfect because God created me that way. I was not born perfect, and when I ask God to heal my imperfections, he says no.

Same standard. Submit to God.

Don’t be blithely simplistic here. Both groups of people have different standards.

A&E had one simple rule and they had preternatural gifts that helped them.

I am subject to dozens of rules and have no help. Can’t compare the two. The situations are WAY different and the standards are polar opposites.

I rather think it does.

Nope.

If God loved us, and he was just, we’d be in Eden.
So either God is not just or not loving. God is clearly love, so justice and love thus are not in the same ballpark.

Justice does not exist in love.

 

[BobCatholic]

You wrote: “What is this gift? Where is the Church teaching on it? How do I get this gift?”
A. I gave you the teaching. It is sanctifying grace.

Sanctifying grace does not heal imperfections or concupiscence.

Thus, this is not the gift you said was promised.

Clearly there is no gift promised that helps heal concupiscence.

You wrote “But the temporal punishment is not.”
A. Analogical sin results in analogical punishment for sin.

The temporal punishment is REAL. We are REALLY here, unless you’re going to tell me we are really in the Matrix. If yes, please give me the red pill.

You wrote: “How does original sin be preventative? I have no access to the tree.”
A. It is not necessary, you have access to sanctifying grace.

If something is preventative, it helps prevent the thing that is preventative against.

Since I cannot go into Eden and eat from the tree, original sin is not preventative since I cannot replicate the original sin no matter how much I would try, since I can’t find Eden anyway.

You wrote: “It was caused by imperfections. How can there be a choice when imperfection is involved?”
A. It is a dogma of the Church that they had free will and fell through mortal sin.

So, which imperfection do you want to admit that A&E have? They clearly were not created perfect.

Naievete? Had no choice but to believe anything anyone told them. Snake tells him garbage, and they believe it. No choice.

Stupidity? Gee, is there any surprise they made a stupid mistake?

Pridefulness? No surprise they fell.

There is no double standard it would require unfair application by definition and that is not the case.

I think it is unfair that

• we cannot be in the Garden of Eden, paradise.
• we cannot be held to one rule
• we cannot have a personal relationship with God (very rare people can do this).

However, A&E COULD!

Why are they so special that they get special treatment? Double standard.

I am a human father. If I did not provide my son with what he needed, I would be called an irresponsible father.

God is a divine father. He did not provide my son with healing (what he needed) nor me with stable employment. But he is not an irresponsible father because God is not responsible for anything.

Double standard.

If a human father can shower blessings on their favorite while denying even the basics on their least favorite, the favoritism shows a lack of love of the least favorite.

When God (who is a divine father) does the same, how is it not different?

Double standard.

Also it is not a teaching of the Church that Adam and Eve were created with grace, only that they had the state of sanctifying grace before the fall.

Hold on. So when did they get the grace, if they apparently were not created with it? Show me the Scripture or Tradition.

If there is none, this is one of those where we can have differing opinions and it is OK.

 

[Vico]

…

You wrote in an even earlier post: “Not envious. I want to grab a pillow and bop them in the head for being so stupid.”
A. “Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those that trespass against us.”

You wrote: “Sanctifying grace does not heal imperfections or concupiscence. Thus, this is not the gift you said was promised. Clearly there is no gift promised that helps heal concupiscence.”
A. This is the original remark:Originally Posted by Vico

1. You wrote: “So there is no promise to overcome concupiscence.”
   A. Not a promise, but a gift, utilizing it with the state of sanctifying grace one can remain without mortal sin.

Per the dogma of the Church, one that is in the state of sanctifying grace can remain just for their whole life. To fall from that state requires a mortal sin which requires complete consent (free will). Catechism:
1264 Yet certain temporal consequences of sin remain in the baptized, such as suffering, illness, death, and such frailties inherent in life as weaknesses of character, and so on, as well as an inclination to sin that Tradition calls concupiscence, or metaphorically, “the tinder for sin” (fomes peccati); since concupiscence “is left for us to wrestle with, it cannot harm those who do not consent but manfully resist it by the grace of Jesus Christ.” Indeed, “an athlete is not crowned unless he competes according to the rules.”

You wrote: “If something is preventative, it helps prevent the thing that is preventative against.”
A. Yes, this is about suffering. The suffering warns a person about sin, not to repeat it.

You wrote: “Since I cannot go into Eden and eat from the tree, original sin is not preventative since I cannot replicate the original sin no matter how much I would try, since I can’t find Eden anyway.”
A. The original personal mortal sin for Adam and Eve is pride and you can commit that. The language used is figurativel, according to the Church. Catechism
390 The account of the fall in Genesis 3 uses figurative language, but affirms a primeval event, a deed that took place at the beginning of the history of man.264 Revelation gives us the certainty of faith that the whole of human history is marked by the original fault freely committed by our first parents.265

You wrote: “They clearly were not created perfect.”
A. Nobody is.

You wrote: “I think it is unfair that …Double standard.”
A. Yes, you have said so many times, however God is not unfair, per the dogmas of the Church, therefore there is no double standard. So you are saying you do not assent to the the dogmas.

You wrote" “Hold on. So when did they get the grace, if they apparently were not created with it? Show me the Scripture or Tradition.”
A. The exact moment is not defined so one can say it is a personal opinion. The Church defines the state that that they were constituted (setup, established) in before their fall, not precisely when they were constituted. Catechism
375 The Church, interpreting the symbolism of biblical language in an authentic way, in the light of the New Testament and Tradition, teaches that our first parents, Adam and Eve, were constituted in an original “state of holiness and justice”.250 This grace of original holiness was “to share in. . .divine life”.251

250 Cf. Council of Trent (1546): DS 1511.
251 Cf. Lumen Gentium 2.

Council of Trent, Session VI:

788 I. If anyone does not confess that the first man Adam, when he had transgressed the commandment of God in Paradise, immediately lost his holiness and the justice in which he had been established, and that he incurred through the offense of that prevarication the wrath and indignation of God and hence the death with which God had previously threatened him, and with death captivity under his power, who thenceforth “had the empire of death” [Heb. 2:14], that is of the devil, and that through that offense of prevarication the entire Adam was transformed in body and soul for the worse [see n. 174], let him be anathema.

Father John A. Hardon wrote in God the Author of Nature and the Supernatural
Part Two: Creation as a Divine Fact:
“It is defined doctrine, at least implicitly in Trent, that Adam possessed sanctifying grace before the fall.” … “The expression “before the fall” simply states the fact that Adam possessed grace and the preternatural gifts, without committing ourselves as to when the infusion took place.”
therealpresence.org/archives/God/God_013.htm

 

[BobCatholic]

You wrote in an even earlier post: “Not envious. I want to grab a pillow and bop them in the head for being so stupid.”
A. “Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those that trespass against us.”

Since God has not forgiven the temporal punishment for the sin of A&E that is imposed on us, it is the exception to that rule above. If I forgive them, i’m not returning to Eden, with only one rule, am I?

Per the dogma of the Church, one that is in the state of sanctifying grace can remain just for their whole life.

Sounds like OSAS, which a doctrine rejected by the Church as heresy.

The Church does not teach anyone is guaranteed the gift of final perseverance, however, God, if he wills, can give this gift. I want this gift. I beg for this gift, since only through this gift I can persevere to the end. But alas,it is impossible for me to have a personal relationship with God, so no wonder he won’t give me this gift (or other good things I need).

You wrote: “If something is preventative, it helps prevent the thing that is preventative against.”
A. Yes, this is about suffering. The suffering warns a person about sin, not to repeat it.

Since there is no way to eat of the fruit of the tree, this cannot be preventative. Can’t repeat a sin that is impossible to do, and not only that, we never did.

And not all suffering has this character. There are plenty of instances of suffering that do not deal with sin. My son’s mental disease, for example. No sin was involved with him. Yet he was punished with mental disease (as well as us since we have to take care of him for the rest of our lives).

A. The original personal mortal sin for Adam and Eve is pride and you can commit that.

Because of the imperfection of pridefulness this sin is possible and probable. If only there was a cure for concupiscence while in this jail cell - alas, God does not provide one. God does not want to provide one. We have buggy code and God refuses to fix the code when we ask for it. You would think that God would say yes to a prayer like that.

The code IS fixed in the after life, that is because God cares only about the spiritual and not the temporal things.

You wrote: “They clearly were not created perfect.”
A. Nobody is.

Correct. Everyone has the buggy code. And you’re surprised that the software crashes?

You wrote: “I think it is unfair that …Double standard.”
A. Yes, you have said so many times, however God is not unfair, per the dogmas of the Church, therefore there is no double standard. So you are saying you do not assent to the the dogmas.

You have not addressed any of the double standards nor addressed the unfairness. All you do is blithely dismiss them, in an uncharitable way.

I get it. I’m imperfect. I’ll never make God happy. That’s why He does not want me.

A. The exact moment is not defined so one can say it is a personal opinion.

My personal opinion is that they were created in an immaculate conception. As sin did not enter the world until the fall, there was no sin in their creation.

The writings of the saints compare the virgin Eve to the Virgin Mary in all ways except that Mary was faithful and Eve was not. Mary’s code was perfectly coded, that’s why.

Adam and Eve, were constituted in an original “state of holiness and justice”.

Seems you and I have a different view of what “constituted” means.

dictionary.com/browse/constituted

1. to compose; form:
   mortar constituted of lime and sand.

The most common definition of constituted means to form - and God formed man from the dust of the earth. God formed woman from that same man. So this again points to their creation in original justice. They were clearly created in grace.

It is defined doctrine, at least implicitly in Trent, that Adam possessed sanctifying grace before the fall." …

I affirm this, and affirm they had this grace from their creation.

I also affirm they were created imperfect, as do you.

I affirm they had one or more of the following imperfections: pridefulness, fear, stupidity, and/or naiveté. (and maybe one more, in this long discussion, I came up with a 5th imperfection) These imperfections were instrumental in the software crashing and causing the fall. I think you and Vico disagree with some of them, but agree on pridefulness. The Church definitely agrees with pridefulness as one of their imperfections.

Imperfections make free will a cruel joke at best, or nonexistent at worst.

It is ridiculously easy to go to hell. All we have to do is exist, since hellbound is our default state. It is horrifically difficult to get to heaven, we must be perfect.

The scales are ridiculously out of balance. Another reason that free will is a cruel joke at best, or nonexistent at worst.

 

[Vico]

…

You wrote: "Since God has not forgiven the temporal punishment for the sin of A&E that is imposed on us, it is the exception to that rule above. If I forgive them, i’m not returning to Eden, with only one rule, am I? "
A. You would not be returning anyway, since you were never there. Jesus instructs us for forgive the offenses, so one should do so, and it applies also to Adam and Eve.

You wrote: "Sounds like OSAS, which a doctrine rejected by the Church as heresy. "
A. I quoted the dogma which pertains to those in the state of sanctifying grace, and dogma is not heresy. Council of Trent, Session V:

792 5. If anyone denies that by the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is conferred in baptism, the guilt of original sin is remitted, or even asserts that the whole of that which has the true and proper nature of sin is not taken away, but says that it is only touched in person or is not imputed, let him be anathema. For in those who are born again, God hates nothing, because “there is no condemnation, to those who are truly buried together with Christ by baptism unto death” [Rom. 6:4], who do not “walk according to the flesh” [Rom. 8:1], but putting off “the old man” and putting on the “new, who is created according to God” [Eph. 4:22 ff.; Col. 3:9 ff.], are made innocent, immaculate, pure, guiltless and beloved sons of God, “heirs indeed of God, but co-heirs with Christ” [Rom.8:17], SO that there is nothing whatever to retard their entrance into heaven. But this holy Synod confesses and perceives that there remains in the baptized concupiscence of an inclination, although this is left to be wrestled with, it cannot harm those who do not consent, but manfully resist by the grace of Jesus Christ. Nay, indeed, “he who shall have striven lawfully, shall be crowned” [2 Tim. 2:5]. This concupiscence, which at times the Apostle calls sin [Rom. 6:12 ff.] the holy Synod declares that the Catholic Church has never understood to be called sin, as truly and properly sin in those born again, but because it is from sin and inclines to sin. But if anyone is of the contrary opinion, let him be anathema.

You wrote: “The Church does not teach anyone is guaranteed the gift of final perseverance”
A. Correct, because final perseverance is a matter of free will.

You wrote: “Since there is no way to eat of the fruit of the tree, this cannot be preventative. Can’t repeat a sin that is impossible to do, and not only that, we never did.”
A. The language is figurative as I showed. So yes mortal sin can be done by us.

You wrote: “And not all suffering has this character. There are plenty of instances of suffering that do not deal with sin…”
A. Correct, even as Jesus answered about the boy born blind, that it was not his fault nor his parents.

You wrote: “If only there was a cure for concupiscence while in this jail cell”
A. There is, sanctifying grace.

You wrote: “You have not addressed any of the double standards nor addressed the unfairness.” and “Imperfections make free will a cruel joke at best, or nonexistent at worst. .”
A. Untrue, as commented before, it goes against dogma of the Church on the nature of God. God is not unfair, therefore there is no double standard.

You wrote: “My personal opinion is that they were created in an immaculate conception.” and “I affirm this, and affirm they had this grace from their creation.”
A. I understand. The Church does not hold that opinion, but the the Blessed Virgin Mary was a singular exception.

 

[BobCatholic]

You wrote: "Since God has not forgiven the temporal punishment for the sin of A&E that is imposed on us, it is the exception to that rule above. If I forgive them, i’m not returning to Eden, with only one rule, am I? "
A. You would not be returning anyway, since you were never there. Jesus instructs us for forgive the offenses, so one should do so, and it applies also to Adam and Eve.

The reason why we are not returning or cannot return is because the temporal punishment of original sin was never forgiven. And forgiving Adam and Eve won’t change that.

Do I forgive them? Yes. But I still want to bop them on the head with a pillow. Not out of rage or anger, but out of playfulness. Like when a friend screws up and you playfully joke about it.

You wrote: "Sounds like OSAS, which a doctrine rejected by the Church as heresy. "
A. I quoted the dogma which pertains to those in the state of sanctifying grace, and dogma is not heresy. Council of Trent, Session V:

. But this holy Synod confesses and perceives that there remains in the baptized concupiscence of an inclination, although this is left to be wrestled with it cannot harm those who do not consent, but manfully resist by the grace of Jesus Christ.

It talks about spiritual harm, not temporal harm. Concupiscence is harmful in a temporal sense, as we are still held temporally responsible for the sins of A&E.

In addition, I did not consent to having concupiscence imposed on me.

Add to this that it negatively impacts one’s free will, so that is a harm as well, a temporal harm. And this temporal harm leads to the spiritual harm of being thrown in hell.

You wrote: “The Church does not teach anyone is guaranteed the gift of final perseverance”
A. Correct, because final perseverance is a matter of free will.

And since we are not guaranteed final perseverance, it is ridiculously easy to go to hell and horrifically difficult to get to heaven. The scales are out of balance. This lack of balance shows that free will is at best a cruel joke and at worst nonexistent.

You wrote: “Since there is no way to eat of the fruit of the tree, this cannot be preventative. Can’t repeat a sin that is impossible to do, and not only that, we never did.”
A. The language is figurative as I showed. So yes mortal sin can be done by us.

The language of Genesis may be figurative, but the “preventative” language is not. Thus that’s another reason this standard does not apply.

You wrote: “If only there was a cure for concupiscence while in this jail cell”
A. There is, sanctifying grace.

It does not cure concupiscence. If it did, I’d not have any.

You wrote: “You have not addressed any of the double standards nor addressed the unfairness.” and “Imperfections make free will a cruel joke at best, or nonexistent at worst. .”
A. Untrue, as commented before, it goes against dogma of the Church on the nature of God. God is not unfair, therefore there is no double standard.

Yes, dismiss it blithely - means you don’t have to deal with the issue.

You wrote: “My personal opinion is that they were created in an immaculate conception.” and “I affirm this, and affirm they had this grace from their creation.”
A. I understand. The Church does not hold that opinion, but the the Blessed Virgin Mary was a singular exception.

Actually, she wasn’t. Jesus was also immaculately conceived.

Jesus the New Adam and Mary the New Adam were immaculately conceived.

Just like the old Adam and old Eve.

God does not care about the temporal, He only cares about the spiritual. That’s why we are in this jail cell.

 

[Vonsalza]

You didn’t bother to answer how unequal the situation is comparing A&E in the garden and us now.

I thought I had. A&E suffered temptation and failed and we do the exact same thing.

No power but all responsibility = slavery. We are nothing but slaves.

You have tremendous power, Bob. But if you don’t want to actualize it, then it’s effectively useless. A man that lays at home all day and gripes about his lot in life is a man that suffers the consequences of his own idleness.

Get out and do something about your life.

Did he create creation? Yes. Is he responsible for it? No.

If you paint a painting, are you not the responsible party for painting it? Honestly confused here.

I create a baby with my wife. Am I responsible for him? Yes. But God gets the credit for creating him. Now, does God guarantee I can provide for him? Nope.

I would argue that you share in the responsibility for creating your child just like I think I’m partly responsible for creating all of mine.

God made you capable of providing for your child. Get to it. Even if you don’t believe in God, the biological mandate to have offspring and see them to adulthood is your prime directive as an organism.

God is not responsible for anything or anyone.

Repeating a mantra doesn’t make it any more true, Bob.

I’m also not surprised you ignored the rest of my statement. I made a very big point. You ignored it.

I’ve answered it repeatedly, Bob. We have identical tests and experience identical failures. The differences you perceive between them are immaterial fluff; filler that just indicates that were dealing with different people.

I did not choose to have my son get a mental disease.

I’m sorry for your family’s woes. In the same vein, I didn’t choose to have a child with severe torticollis or a twin brother with schizophrenia. But I sure-as-hell get to choose how I respond to those situations - by God’s great gift of will.

I can’t keep a job. I’ve done everything right.

Then no, no you have not. In general, the requirements of employers are generally the same. If you can’t hold a job, 99.99% of the time, the problem is you.

No, I’m imperfect because God created me that way. I was not born perfect, and when I ask God to heal my imperfections, he says no.

You are vulnerable to temptation, just like A&E (thus The Fall). You’re born no more or less morally perfect than they were created. Any deviation from that is of your own doing.

You might counter with “the garden was perfect and the world today isn’t”! True, A&E corrupted the world with their sin just like you and I worsen it with our own. They only real difference between you and A&E is that they started what you make make worse through the same sinful actions.

As to God “healing your imperfections”, you’ll not find much support in any text for God sanctifying you against your will. Sanctification*** is your job***. If God’s supposed to do it for you, why gift you with a will in the first place?

Don’t be blithely simplistic here. Both groups of people have different standards.

Don’t be needlessly and arbitrarily convoluted. The standards are the same.

The situations are WAY different and the standards are polar opposites.

In your mind, maybe. In reality? Not at all.

If God loved us, and he was just, we’d be in Eden.

God loved you so much that he gave you the greatest gift found in all creation - free moral agency. And by your own choice, you’ve used that gift to disqualify yourself from Eden.

In you and me, God created creatures that were free to affirm or deny Him of their own will. If you would like to have that will eliminated, I doubt God would have had much desire for creating you in the first place.

In short, you have will because God loves you. Don’t like it? Tough. What are you going to do about it?

So either God is not just or not loving.

He’s both just and loving. Your discount of the value of will is what has led you to this false dichotomy that you believe in, unfortunately.

---

As charitably as I can, get off the computer and go fix your life Bob. Your job. Not Gods.

A prayer for your family, particularly your child.

 

[BobCatholic]

I thought I had. A&E suffered temptation and failed and we do the exact same thing.

The tests are not identical.

Clearly you didn’t read my comparison.

You have tremendous power, Bob. But if you don’t want to actualize it,

What power?

I can’t heal my son.

I have no power over employers to demand stable employment.

Get out and do something about your life.

Like what? I’ve went back to school three times to get into new fields that are hot, in an attempt to increase my employability and stability of employment. Each time I’ve done well in school, get my degrees and certifications. Then I can’t get the jobs in the new field because I have no experience. So back to the dying field to earn a living I go.

Should I go back to school yet again? Doing the same thing over and over, and expecting a different outcome is the definition of insanity.

In my dying field, I have accolades from previous employers, they were glad I was on their team. None of this matters to new field employers. None of this changes the fact my field is dying and eventually I will never get a job again.

I have no choice.

If you paint a painting, are you not the responsible party for painting it? Honestly confused here.

Yes, but am I responsible for taking care of it for the rest of my life? Or have I sold it to someone else and now they have that responsibility?

God made you capable of providing for your child. Get to it.

He has not given me stable employment. Nor any way to get stable employment.

Even if you don’t believe in God, the biological mandate to have offspring and see them to adulthood is your prime directive as an organism.

He has a mental disease, adulthood is not enough, it is the rest of my life this obligation, with zero help from God.

Repeating a mantra doesn’t make it any more true, Bob.

Are you saying God IS responsible for something? Something that I can call upon and demand he fulfill his responsibilities?

Of course not. I have no right to do that, so God is not responsible for anything.
.

 

[BobCatholic]

I’ve answered it repeatedly, Bob. We have identical tests and experience identical failures. The differences you perceive between them are immaterial fluff; filler that just indicates that were dealing with different people.

The tests are NOT identical! Not even close! Sheesh. A&E had it easy and we have it far harder.

But I sure-as-hell get to choose how I respond to those situations - by God’s great gift of will.

Correct, because I alone am responsible, God is not responsible for taking care of him in any way shape or form. God doesn’t have to help, God does not want to help.

Then no, no you have not. In general, the requirements of employers are generally the same. If you can’t hold a job, 99.99% of the time, the problem is you.

That’s a lie.

Show me where the entry level jobs are that require no experience. And don’t show me minimum wage jobs (no way to move up) or sales jobs (I’m not a sales man)

Can’t get experience after going back to school. They dont count education as experience. I learn a new field, and try to break into a new field and the experience I have in my old field does not count.

You have no solution to the catch-22 except to blame me for going back to school. Shame on me for trying to improve myself TWICE. How utterly uncharitable.

You are vulnerable to temptation, just like A&E (thus The Fall).

Because I am far more imperfect, I am FAR MORE VULNERABLE than they ever were.

You’re born no more or less morally perfect than they were created.

That is heresy.

The Church teaches they were created with preternatural gifts. I never got those when I was born.

They were created in a state of original justice, I never was.

Any deviation from that is of your own doing.

No, it was Adam and Eve’s doing. This is Church teaching.

As to God “healing your imperfections”, you’ll not find much support in any text for God sanctifying you against your will.

If I’m asking, I’m willing. Why would I ask for something against my will? Totally unreasonable and illogical.

Sanctification*** is your job***.

Heresy. The Church rejects Pelagianism. Or did you forget Canon 1 of the Council of Trent - Decrees on justification?

If God’s supposed to do it for you, why gift you with a will in the first place?

Why create someone imperfect and then punish them for living an imperfect life?

Don’t be needlessly and arbitrarily convoluted. The standards are the same.

The standards are not the same, A&E had a far easier standard and more resources to handle it. We have less resources and a higher standard - be perfect!

In your mind, maybe. In reality? Not at all.

Because you don’t have an answer, you blithely dismiss my objections.

God loved you so much that he gave you the greatest gift found in all creation - free moral agency.

Offset by imperfections, so as a result I have no choice but to fail. The gift is used as a means to assign blame to me and have God wash his hands of me.

And by your own choice, you’ve used that gift to disqualify yourself from Eden.

Being born disqualified me from Eden. I had no choice in that!

In you and me, God created creatures that were free to affirm or deny Him of their own will. If you would like to have that will eliminated, I doubt God would have had much desire for creating you in the first place.

You act as if imperfections do not exist and that they have zero impact on free will. That is not true and you know it!

In short, you have will because God loves you.

No, I have imperfections because God does not love me, and wants to punish me.

Your discount of the value of will

Free will without help in overcoming imperfections is just a cruel joke.

As charitably as I can, get off the computer and go fix your life Bob. Your job. Not Gods.

And how? You act like solving my problems is this easy thing to do without giving me any specifics.

What can I do to cure my son’s mental disease? What can I do to solve my employment problem? it is easy to lecture me and tell me I’m some horrible evil person and sit on your throne in judgment.

Now actually helping me in those two areas, you won’t help. Telling me to go away is your admission of that you can’t help and don’t want to help.

So at least answer my questions and help me to understand why things are the way they are. Hint: There is no revelation on why we are held temporally responsible for the sins of our ancestors. There is only revelation that we are held temporally responsible for the sins of our ancestors.

Tell me why I am not allowed to have a personal relationship with God. I’ve struggled and overcame a lot of mortal sins (thank God for that! I could not have done it without him) and am not aware of mortal sins, But things get worse and worse instead of getting closer to God. The closer I move forward to God the further God steps away, saying he does not want me.

 

[Vonsalza]

God does not want to help.

Matthew 7:11 If you then being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children: how much more will your Father who is in heaven, give good things to them that ask him?

Show me where the entry level jobs are that require no experience. And don’t show me minimum wage jobs (no way to move up) or sales jobs (I’m not a sales man)

They’re not going to start you off as CEO, you’re right. But you’ve got to get in somewhere. Right now, anywhere. Because no people look more employable than those currently employed.
And you need to learn to be a sales man. When you try for a position, you’re literally selling yourself to the prospective employer; even if it’s with the biology dept at the local U.

How utterly uncharitable.

If a man is his own problem, it isn’t uncharitable to tell him so. It’s uncharitable to skirt it.

Because I am far more imperfect, I am FAR MORE VULNERABLE than they ever were.

Stop this. You are no more imperfect that they were. You are no more vulnerable to temptation than they were. I wonder how they felt when one of their sons murdered the other…

That is heresy.
The Church teaches they were created with preternatural gifts. I never got those when I was born.
They were created in a state of original justice, I never was.

They may have had “preternatural” gifts, but that made them no more “perfect” than you as it pertains to moral behavior. They were tempted and fell, we are tempted and fail.

Why do you presume a state of original justice is owed to you? Do you also fault God for not making your parents wealthier?

No, it was Adam and Eve’s doing. This is Church teaching.

CCC on Sin:1850 Sin is an offense against God: "Against you, you alone, have I sinned, and done that which is evil in your sight."122 Sin sets itself against God’s love for us and turns our hearts away from it. Like the first sin, it is disobedience, a revolt against God through the will to become "like gods,"123 knowing and determining good and evil. Sin is thus "love of oneself even to contempt of God."124 In this proud self- exaltation, sin is diametrically opposed to the obedience of Jesus, which achieves our salvation.

Heresy. The Church rejects Pelagianism. Or did you forget Canon 1 of the Council of Trent - Decrees on justification?

CCC 2013 "All Christians in any state or walk of life are called to the fullness of Christian life and to the perfection of charity."65 All are called to holiness: "Be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."66

Answer your call.

Why create someone imperfect and then punish them for living an imperfect life?

You’re punished for your sin. What’s confusing about that?

Because you don’t have an answer, you blithely dismiss my objections.

There’s nothing else that one can rationally do with an axiomatic declaration (like yours) that they find unreasonable.

Offset by imperfections, so as a result I have no choice but to fail. The gift is used as a means to assign blame to me and have God wash his hands of me.

biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+7

Being born disqualified me from Eden. I had no choice in that!

Your chosen sins confirm the validity of the disqualification.

You act as if imperfections do not exist and that they have zero impact on free will. That is not true and you know it!

I don’t pose will as unlimited. But where it is limited, God’s mercy counters.

No, I have imperfections because God does not love me, and wants to punish me.

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, as to give his only begotten Son; that whosoever believeth in him, may not perish, but may have life everlasting.”

Free will without help in overcoming imperfections is just a cruel joke.

James 1:5 “But if any of you want wisdom, let him ask of God, who giveth to all men abundantly, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.”

And how? You act like solving my problems is this easy thing to do without giving me any specifics.

I’m not in your shoes, specifics are impossible.

What can I do to cure my son’s mental disease?

If it’s like my brother’s schizophrenia, not a damn thing. So stop asking that question. Ask “what can I do?”.

What can I do to solve my employment problem?

You do exactly what I did when I was in my early 20s and out for work for a year and a half. Start beating pavement, make calls and take the first thing that gives you a “yes”. You look more employable when already employed. Don’t look for “the dream job”. For now, settle for “a job” even if not related to your degree. You’re probably not going to move up in the same company. I didn’t.

Hint: There is no revelation on why we are held temporally responsible for the sins of our ancestors. There is only revelation that we are held temporally responsible for the sins of our ancestors.

If you know the reality but not the “why”, you already know everything you need to respond to it.

Tell me why I am not allowed to have a personal relationship with God.

You keep feeding yourself “I am not allowed to have a personal relationship with God.”

---

You’re in a dark place. Most have been there.
Don’t expect internet strangers or God to solve your problems for you. You need to make that happen. You HAVE to make that happen. Your wife and child NEED you to make that happen.

That’s the hard reality of the thing. Rise to it, for the sake of those that depend on you.

 

[Vonsalza]

At this, Bob, we’re just circling.

Last word is yours. Good luck, man.

 

[BobCatholic]

Matthew 7:11 If you then being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children: how much more will your Father who is in heaven, give good things to them that ask him?

What translation is that?

The version I’ve seen frequently says “…give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him” which clearly means God cares only about the spiritual.

This is not about God providing our temporal needs. The health and wealth gospel is condemned by the Church.

They’re not going to start you off as CEO, you’re right. But you’ve got to get in somewhere. Right now, anywhere. Because no people look more employable than those currently employed.

The catch-22 stops me. Every single time. I have no choice but to earn a living in my current field which is dying and will eventually make me permanently unemployed.

And you need to learn to be a sales man. When you try for a position, you’re literally selling yourself to the prospective employer; even if it’s with the biology dept at the local U.

I’m a bad salesman, and there’s no way to learn it. It takes the ability to get people to do something they don’t want to do, and that is spend money.

If I can’t even convince the Heavenly Father who supposedly loves me to do good things for me, how on earth will I ever convince an employer who does not love me, to do good things for me?

If a man is his own problem, it isn’t uncharitable to tell him so. It’s uncharitable to skirt it.

You have not told me what I’m doing wrong when it comes to employment.

I have a clean criminal record, not even traffic tickets.
I have no drug addictions, no alcoholism, etc.
I have no lawsuits against me.
I have multiple degrees and certifications.
I have experience and people posting recommendations.
My LinkedIn profile is awesome.
I work hard, am dependable, go above and beyond the call of duty many times.
I have great dragon slaying stories to tell at job interviews.
I’ve went back to school TWICE to try to do a career change to a new field.

I’m the perfect employee, willing to work at an entry level job.

In one new field, I have a degree with 4.0 GPA and a certification that is in demand. No experience, so game over there.

In the other field, I have a degree with 4.0 GPA and a certification that is in demand. I even got an internship and have some experience with the title. In addition, my current role has experience that is transferred to the new field. I get rejected because recruiters and hiring managers look at JOB TITLE ONLY and stop thinking. “Oh, he doesn’t have the correct job title, who cares he can do the job.”

I do everything right and I still can’t find sustainable employment.

Stop this. You are no more imperfect that they were. You are no more vulnerable to temptation than they were. I wonder how they felt when one of their sons murdered the other…

I’m a horrible person, even YOU think so. Don’t try to now build me up after tearing me down and making me out to be a criminal lowlife.

Why do you presume a state of original justice is owed to you? Do you also fault God for not making your parents wealthier?

I fault God for not balancing the scales. He makes it horrifically difficult to go to heaven (playing very very very hard to get) while making it ridiculously easy to go to hell. It is our default state.

I fault God for never wanting to be with me, no matter what efforts I put in to get close to him. Everything I’ve done to get closer to God has failed. God clearly does not want me, and there’s nothing I can do about that.

through the will to become “like gods,”

I don’t want to be a god, or become “like gods” - I do want to be WITH God, and be divinized as God wants to do. But as long as I cannot get a personal relationship with God, this is impossible.

CCC 2013 "All Christians in any state or walk of life are called to the fullness of Christian life and to the perfection of charity."65 All are called to holiness: "Be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."66

Answer your call.

I did. Time after time. God doesn’t want me.

You’re punished for your sin. What’s confusing about that?

Again, you deny that imperfections reduce free will. This is Church teaching.

There’s nothing else that one can rationally do with an axiomatic declaration (like yours) that they find unreasonable.

You find it unreasonable because you can’t answer the question. You are unable to help, so you blame me for it. It is easy to do.

Your chosen sins confirm the validity of the disqualification.

I was disqualified from birth. When I was baptized, I was qualified but not returned to Eden.

I don’t pose will as unlimited. But where it is limited, God’s mercy counters.

God did not forgive original sin (at least the temporal punishment).
There is no way to get this temporal punishment forgiven as long as we are in this jail cell. There is no indulgence to obtain from Mother Church to get this.

 

[BobCatholic]

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, as to give his only begotten Son; that whosoever believeth in him, may not perish, but may have life everlasting.”

May is the key word. Life everlasting is not guaranteed until I somehow survive this jail cell and get there. Without help, that is not happening.

James 1:5 “But if any of you want wisdom, let him ask of God, who giveth to all men abundantly, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.”

And God said no, that’s why I’m in this thread seeking wisdom.

I’m not in your shoes, specifics are impossible.

I gave you two specifics. You have no answer to either.

If it’s like my brother’s schizophrenia, not a damn thing. So stop asking that question. Ask “what can I do?”.

The only thing is to take care of him for the rest of my life. I have a guaranteed obligation and no guarantee I’ll be able to provide due to bad employment. Scales out of balance.

You do exactly what I did when I was in my early 20s and out for work for a year and a half. Start beating pavement, make calls and take the first thing that gives you a “yes”. You look more employable when already employed. Don’t look for “the dream job”. For now, settle for “a job” even if not related to your degree. You’re probably not going to move up in the same company. I didn’t.

:doh2:

Gee, why didn’t I bother doing something that simple? /sarc

I’ve done this many times, this advice does not work.

If you know the reality but not the “why”, you already know everything you need to respond to it.

This is how I respond. I cry in this orphanage known as earth.

You keep feeding yourself “I am not allowed to have a personal relationship with God.”

That didn’t happen until after trying, and trying, and trying, and trying, and trying, and trying, and trying, and trying, and trying, and trying, and trying, and trying, and trying, and trying, and trying, and trying, and trying, and trying, and trying, and trying, and trying, and trying, and trying, and trying, and trying, and trying, and trying, and trying, and trying, and trying, and trying, and trying, and trying, and trying, and trying, and trying, and trying, and trying, and trying, and trying, and trying, and trying, and trying, and trying, and trying, and trying, and trying, and trying, and trying, and trying, and trying, and trying, and trying, and trying, and trying, and trying, and trying, and trying, and trying, and trying, and trying, and trying to get closer to God and failing miserably.

How much more should I try before I finally get it through my thick skull that God really does not want me? Right now I’m too stubborn (my soul depends on this!) - the only other choice is despair and preparing for the elevator ride down.

Don’t expect internet strangers

I am not egotistical and think I can do things on my own. I am humble enough to ask for help. If I’m lost, I’ll stop at a gas station and ask for directions. If I don’t know something, I’ll ask an expert to show me how to do things.

If I have nobody I can turn to for help, internet strangers on an apparent Catholic forum are my only hope.

or God to solve your problems for you.

Scratch your interpretation of Matthew 7:11 right there. I cannot expect help from God, a supposed loving father.

You need to make that happen. You HAVE to make that happen.

I don’t know how to get around the catch-22.
I don’t know how to get a personal relationship with God when He does not want me.
I don’t know how to take care of a kid for the rest of my life when I’m never allowed to keep steady employment.

How can I make it happen when I don’t know the answers? And asking for help is not the answer, obviously as you said.

Your wife and child NEED you to make that happen.

I know.

That’s the hard reality of the thing. Rise to it, for the sake of those that depend on you.

That requires a resurrection here on earth, when God only promised one after I die. He never promised a resurrection here on earth.

 

[Vonsalza]

I’m a horrible person, even YOU think so. Don’t try to now build me up after tearing me down and making me out to be a criminal lowlife.

Had to reply to this one;

Not true at all. I do not think you’re a horrible person. You actually sound like a pretty accomplished guy. You do, however, seem to have a little attitude problem.

Every man is the source of most of his problems. He’s also the source of nearly all of his solutions. I know it’s cliche, but it’s true.

In addition, you say a lot of things I hear my brother say about himself. As charitably as possible, I suggest you seek professional counseling in addition to spiritual counseling within the Church. You’re not worthless. You’re accomplished and a husband and a father.

 

[BobCatholic]

Had to reply to this one;

Not true at all. I do not think you’re a horrible person. You actually sound like a pretty accomplished guy. You do, however, seem to have a little attitude problem.

What attitude problem? I’m trying my best to make good things happen and they don’t happen. It is discouraging at the least and despairing at worst.

I know, the guy downstairs is the source of despair, so I tell him to go to hell. Yeah, that means I gotta have an attitude problem, but I never show it in my professional capacity.

This forum is the only place I am pouring out my cries for help about this.

Every man is the source of most of his problems. He’s also the source of nearly all of his solutions. I know it’s cliche, but it’s true.

Let’s just say I’m doing everything in my power NOT to be a source of my problems. I am aware of the 50,000 things that cause employers to reject people, and avoid the overwhelming vast majority of them. I can pass a background check with flying colors easily.

The remainder are because of stereotypes and weakness of employers.

I know I’m not the solution for my problems. That’s why I ask others for help.

In addition, you say a lot of things I hear my brother say about himself.

I also say things that a lot of people say about themselves. I’m not unique here.

As charitably as possible, I suggest you seek professional counseling in addition to spiritual counseling within the Church.

Don’t know what kind of professional counseling Shrink? That doesn’t work, just a pseudoscience at $150/hour paying for someone else’s yacht. I’m better off buying a soda and pouring out my heart to a bartender.

I’ve been blessed with the services of a big name resume prep firm who helped me make my resume awesome. I’ve talked to career counselors and none of them have a solution to the catch-22.

You’re not worthless. You’re accomplished and a husband and a father.

Only if I can stay employed. One day my field will die and I’ll be permanently unemployed with no hope of ever seeing anything outside of a McJob. It is only a matter of time. Age discrimination and technological disruption are forces that go against me…

I’ll have no idea how to provide for my family then. I’ll become a bad husband and father when we are living on the streets.

This is why I was motivated to go back to school and get new skills to try to get out of this dying field. But the result is that quote from that famous mafia movie…“Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in!”