Is our free choice real

[BobCatholic]

You wrote: “They’re not exclusively in the Garden of Eden.”
A. Exclusively: to the exclusion of others; only; solely.

Correct.

“However, we didn’t do the crime, yet we do the time in this jail cell.”
A. Caetchism 404 … Adam and Eve committed a personal sin, but this sin affected the human nature that they would then transmit in a fallen state.294 It is a sin which will be transmitted by propagation to all mankind, that is, by the transmission of a human nature deprived of original holiness and justice. And that is why original sin is called “sin” only in an analogical sense: it is a sin “contracted” and not “committed” - a state and not an act.

There’s no way to get out of the fallen state. Despite grace, we are still in this jail cell.

Free will = 0

You wrote: “I don’t care about being “not guilty” of a sin, I’m not getting any grace if I have no free will.” … And if one doesn’t have free will due to massive imperfections, game over. No grace for them. "
A. Catechism 405: … Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ’s grace, erases original sin and turns a man back towards God,** but the consequences for nature, weakened and inclined to evil, persist in man and summon him to spiritual battle**.

More proof there is no way to get out of the fallen state, the catechism says so above bolded.

You wrote: “Then how do I become perfect without having to go to purgatory? It is impossible.”
A. You personally, or a person? A person can do penance for their absolved sins, so that no temporal punishment remains. One form of penance is indulgences.

How do I know if I’m doing enough penance? Not enough, I’m still imperfect.
Indulgences help, and the plenary indulgence is impossible to get while one is imperfect. In addition, no indulgence can get us back into the Garden and none get us out of this jail cell.

You wrote: “How do I get perfect when I’m stuck at this particular level of development for ages? I’m frustrated with myself and my inability to become a saintlier person.”
A. Avoid the occasions of sin. Prayer and fasting and charitable works or donations.

Impossible to avoid the occasions of sin, I live here with people. Prayer is a monologue. I do fast from time to time, but it doesn’t seem to do anything. I do plenty of spiritual works of mercy, but donations are not doable due to my unstable employment.

You wrote: “But not until one gets into purgatory first. Nobody goes directly to heaven by being in a state of grace ALONE.”
A. I did not say directly, however it is not necessary for all to experience purgatory.

Correct. The tiny minority of perfect people who are on earth don’t have to. The rest of us, if we are lucky, are doomed to purgatory. And if we are not lucky, hell.

You wrote: “If you understand that to mean we must imitate Christ an be just like him (instead of ourselves) then you understand what I mean.”
A. I hope we are saying the same thing. I find your thinking to be different than that of the Church in wording.

In meaning, I say the same thing. In words, different words. There’s more than one way to say something.

You wrote: “I don’t think the Church teaches this, but I do struggle with my 2nd class status as a layman.”
A. A layman is not second class per the Catholic Church teaching, if that is what you mean.

Perhaps, but Christ definitely thinks so. That’s why he demanded the rich young ruler to give up all wealth. Ordinary laypeople can’t do this if they’re married and have children.

You wrote: “Not because it was a free gift from God. Not because God helps us in carrying our cross, or helping us get our salvation through a guaranteed final perseverance.”
A. Guaranteed final perseverance was never a teaching of the Church, but God does help us with grace and that is a spiritual help with our cross, and without grace there is no salvation.

And if imperfections are enough, there is no free will, and no grace,and thus no salvation.

You wrote: “If one does not eliminate all imperfections prior to death, Purgatory is their lot.”
A. That is not true according to the Catholic Church, Council of Florence.

693 De novissimis] * It has likewise defined, that, if those truly penitent have departed in the love of God, before they have made satisfaction by the worthy fruits of penance for sins of commission and omission, the souls of these are cleansed after death by purgatorial punishments; and so that they may be released from punishments of this kind,

Imperfection includes insufficient penance. Another imperfection is the incapability to fully make reparation by penance.

This section proves my point - imperfections mean purgatory is our lot. There is no choice for imperfect people.

And that the souls of those, who after the reception of baptism have incurred no stain of sin at all, and also those, who after the contraction of the stain of sin whether in their bodies, or when released from the same bodies, as we have said before, are purged, are immediately received into heaven, and see clearly the one and triune God Himself just as He is,

Immediately after baptism, we are perfect, no imperfections, so yes, if they die immediately after baptism, they go to heaven.​

 

[ANV]

Can the choice between ecstasy (Heaven) and torment (Hell) be considered a real free choice. Is it not more “do it my way or else”.
I hope this is the right forum.
Hope all is well for everyone.

It was a choice imposed on us, a choice that we didn’t choose to have, a game we were subscribed to without our consent. The non existent was never imposed to such a play.

 

[Vico]

…

Adam and Eve are exclusively in the Garden of Eden: “Exclusively: to the exclusion of others; only; solely.”

You wrote: “There’s no way to get out of the fallen state. Despite grace, we are still in this jail cell.”
A. Not until the resurrection will original justice be restored.

You wrote: “Free will = 0” and “There is no choice for imperfect people.”
A. That man has been given free will is a dogma of the Catholic Church.

You wrote: “Impossible to avoid the occasions of sin, I live here with people.”
A. Maybe so, but it is the near occasions of sin that we are bound to avoid. Also it if is morally impossible then we cannot avoid it so we resist it mentally.

You wrote: “Prayer is a monologue. I do fast from time to time, …”
A. It does not matter if it is a monologue, it is still penance, so it is good that you do pray and pray for others not just yourself and the fast and abstinence are penance too.

You wrote: “The tiny minority of perfect people who are on earth don’t have to.” [experience purgatory]
A. No, perfection is not necessary, only having done enough penance before death.

You wrote: "… if we are lucky, are doomed to purgatory.“And if we are not lucky, hell.”
A. No such thing as luck. The baptized attain heaven through exercise of their free will.

You wrote: “In meaning, I say the same thing. In words, different words. There’s more than one way to say something.”
A. How do I know that? It you simply agreed to the wording used by the Church then I would know. You argue over the wording that the Church uses, so it appears that you do not accept it.

You wrote: “Perhaps, but Christ definitely thinks so. That’s why he demanded the rich young ruler to give up all wealth. Ordinary laypeople can’t do this if they’re married and have children.”
A. It is not necessary to give up necessary income, what is needed is not to be bound to riches. There is a difference.

You wrote: “… if they die immediately after baptism, they go to heaven.”
A. Yes (water, blood, or desire) and also immediately after a plenary indulgence or the Apostolic Blessing given in the Anointing of the Sick. And for those that have done sufficient penance with or without the aid of partial indulgences (the Church doubles the effects) which do not require detachment from all sin.

Your wrote: “And if imperfections are enough, there is no free will, and no grace, and thus no salvation.”
A. There is no such statement made by me or the Church, only that one must die in the state of sanctifying grace for salvation. Those people are imperfect, for only God is absolutely perfect. As stated in the Council of Florence.
693 De novissimis] * It has likewise defined, that, if those truly penitent have departed in the love of God, before they have made satisfaction by the worthy fruits of penance for sins of commission and omission, the souls of these are cleansed after death by purgatorial punishments; and so that they may be released from punishments of this kind, the suffrages of the living faithful are of advantage to them, namely, the sacrifices of Masses, prayers, and almsgiving, and other works of piety, which are customarily performed by the faithful for other faithful according to the institutions of the Church. And that the souls of those, who after the reception of baptism have incurred no stain of sin at all, and also those, who after the contraction of the stain of sin whether in their bodies, or when released from the same bodies, as we have said before, are purged, are immediately received into heaven, and see clearly the one and triune God Himself just as He is, yet according to the diversity of merits, one more perfectly than another. Moreover, the souls of those who depart in actual mortal sin or in original sin only, descend immediately into hell but to undergo punishments of different kinds [see n.464].

 

[BobCatholic]

Adam and Eve are exclusively in the Garden of Eden: “Exclusively: to the exclusion of others; only; solely.”

I said that Adam and Eve were the only people in the Garden of Eden - that’s the scope of “exclusive” I used.

You wrote: “There’s no way to get out of the fallen state. Despite grace, we are still in this jail cell.”
A. Not until the resurrection will original justice be restored.

Precisely, until then original sin is not forgiven.

You wrote: “Free will = 0” and “There is no choice for imperfect people.”
A. That man has been given free will is a dogma of the Catholic Church.

As I said, there’s no way out of the fallen state here on earth. Free will = 0 for this situation. Since there is no way to get out of the fallen state, we remain imperfect.
Since there is no way from getting out of imperfection, this means God is holding back grace from us.

Buggy software will crash, that’s how imperfections work. It robs us of free will.

So here God places us in a catch-22, which is unresolvable.

You wrote: “Impossible to avoid the occasions of sin, I live here with people.”
A. Maybe so, but it is the near occasions of sin that we are bound to avoid. Also it if is morally impossible then we cannot avoid it so we resist it mentally.

Unless I minimize contact with other people, I cannot avoid the near occasions of sin. I’d have to stay home and only deal with co-workers and maybe those at Church.

I’d have to become anti-social. (not sociopathic, but avoiding people)

On the other hand, I’m supposed to love my neighbor and be out doing good deeds helping people, but this places me at risk of being in a sin situation.

God again, places us in a catch-22.

You wrote: “Prayer is a monologue. I do fast from time to time, …”
A. It does not matter if it is a monologue, it is still penance, so it is good that you do pray and pray for others not just yourself and the fast and abstinence are penance too.

It does matter if prayer is a monologue. A monologue is not a personal relationship. How does one have a personal relationship with God if he never talks back? Impossible.
Without a personal relationship with God, I worry that I’m going to die, and hear those awful, heartbreaking words “Go away evildoer, I never knew you.”

You wrote: “The tiny minority of perfect people who are on earth don’t have to.” [experience purgatory]
A. No, perfection is not necessary, only having done enough penance before death.

Perfection is required to enter heaven directly. We went over this and you keep going back to denying this. If one is not perfect at the time of death, purgatory is required. There is no choice for the overwhelming vast majority of people. Free will = 0 in this instance.

You wrote: "… if we are lucky, are doomed to purgatory.“And if we are not lucky, hell.”
A. No such thing as luck. The baptized attain heaven through exercise of their free will.

I don’t believe in luck, I use the word to mean “God’s favor” as in that God chose to help.

You argue over the wording that the Church uses, so it appears that you do not accept it.

Remember, the Pharisees argued over the words Jesus used and didn’t accept his hyperbolic teachings either I’m imitating our Lord here.

A. It is not necessary to give up necessary income, what is needed is not to be bound to riches. There is a difference.

God hates riches, God hates money. That’s why I never can recover from past failures.

Your wrote: “And if imperfections are enough, there is no free will, and no grace, and thus no salvation.”
A. There is no such statement made by me or the Church, only that one must die in the state of sanctifying grace for salvation.

Premise 1: You just said that if grace can only be received if one has free will. This is Church teaching.
Premise 2: If one does not have free will there is no guilt. This is Church teaching.
Conclusion: But if one has no free will they don’t get grace.

Premise 3: We’ve already established that if imperfections are large enough there is no free will because of them. This is Church teaching.
Premise 4: Salvation is by Grace Alone. This is Church teaching.
Conclusion: If one’s imperfections are large enough, they have no free will, they have no grace and without grace, no salvation.

Those people are imperfect, for only God is absolutely perfect.

Mary is perfect. The saints in heaven are perfect. Angels are perfect. God is perfect in His own way, but the others are perfect because they are in heaven.

 

[Vico]

…

I said that Adam and Eve were the only people in the Garden of Eden - that’s the scope of “exclusive” I used.
A. Your original post was that “They’re not exclusively in the Garden of Eden.”.

You wrote: “Precisely, until then original sin is not forgiven.”
A. No. Catechism 1263 By Baptism all sins are forgiven, original sin and all personal sins, as well as all punishment for sin.

You wrote: “… God is holding back grace from us.”
A. No. God is not holding back grace from us per the Church dogma god gives all actual graces, even before conversion.

You wrote: “Unless I minimize contact with other people, I cannot avoid the near occasions of sin. …but this places me at risk of being in a sin situation”.
A. Sin requires willingness but if you do not will it and cannot avoid it then it is not formal sin. Baltimore Catechism
Q. 773. Is a person who is determined to avoid the sin, but who is unwilling to give up its near occasion when it is possible to do so, rightly disposed for confession?

A. A person who is determined to avoid the sin, but who is unwilling to give up its near occasion when it is possible to do so, is not rightly disposed for confession, and he will not be absolved if he makes known to the priest the true state of his conscience.

You wrote: “God again, places us in a catch-22.”
A… Not true. One that has the state of sanctifying grace can remain free from mortal sin through exercise of their free will in conjunction with the grace of God.

You wrote: “How does one have a personal relationship with God if he never talks back?”
A. Catechism teaches us that prayer is that relationship. (Posted before.) The Church teaches the dogma of divine providence. Also each of the the baptized has a guardian angel that is present to protect and care for ones salvation.

You wrote: “Perfection is required to enter heaven directly. We went over this and you keep going back to denying this. If one is not perfect at the time of death, purgatory is required.”
A. Looks like you are note reading what I post. Post 955: Perfection can be applied at different levels. It is not necessary to eliminate all imperfection for salvation or heaven. See My Catholic Faith A Manual of Religion, By Most Reverend Louis L. R. Morrow, S.T.D., Bishop of Krishnagar, 1949, Chapter 23):

3. If a person is in the state of grace, venial sins are forgiven in many ways without necessity of confession.

Provided one has sorrow and a sincere resolution not to commit the sins again, they are forgiven not only by Confession, but also by Holy Communion, by acts of contrition, prayer, good works, etc.

1. A distinction exists between venial sins and imperfections. Imperfections are faults that arise from ignorance or weakness, not from a bad will.

For instance involuntary distractions in prayer, “white lies” told while telling a story or in exagerations or jokes, bad manners that hurt no one much, are imperfections. We should, however, try to avoid all imperfections, for they are not praiseworthy, are often a cause of irritation to others, and make us accustomed to doing what is not correct.

How does venial sin harm us? --Venial sin harms us by making us less fervent in the service of God, by weakening our power to resist mortal sin, and by making us deserving of God’s punishments in this life or in purgatory.

catholicbook.com/AgredaCD…th/mcfc023.htm​

You wrote: “Remember, the Pharisees argued over the words Jesus used and didn’t accept his hyperbolic teachings either I’m imitating our Lord here.”
A. The original statement is “You argue over the wording that the Church uses, so it appears that you do not accept it.” Why do you not state that you accept it if you do?

You wrote: “Premise 1: You just said that if grace can only be received if one has free will. This is Church teaching.” and from Premise 2 “But if one has no free will they don’t get grace.”
A. No neither I nor the Church stated only. It should be obvious from the fact the baptized infants receive forgiveness of original sin through sanctifying grace. God is not limited to giving grace only with exercise of free will. The Church teaches dogmatically that God gives actual graces even before conversion.

You wrote: " If one’s imperfections are large enough, they have no free will, they have no grace and without grace, no salvation."
A. Does not follow due to incorrect assumptions about how grace is received.

You wrote: “I don’t believe in luck, I use the word to mean “God’s favor” as in that God chose to help.”
A. That is not the meaning of luck so you are not communicating effectively. Luck: success or failure apparently brought by chance rather than through one’s own actions.

You wrote: “Mary is perfect. The saints in heaven are perfect. Angels are perfect. God is perfect in His own way, but the others are perfect because they are in heaven.”
A. One must die in the state of sanctifying grace for salvation. Those in heaven receive the Beatific Vision “yet according to the diversity of merits, one more perfectly than another.”
As stated in the Council of Florence.
693 De novissimis] * It has likewise defined, that, … And that the souls of those, who after the reception of baptism have incurred no stain of sin at all, and also those, who after the contraction of the stain of sin whether in their bodies, or when released from the same bodies, as we have said before, are purged, are immediately received into heaven, and see clearly the one and triune God Himself just as He is, yet according to the diversity of merits, one more perfectly than another.

 

[BobCatholic]

I said that Adam and Eve were the only people in the Garden of Eden - that’s the scope of “exclusive” I used.
A. Your original post was that “They’re not exclusively in the Garden of Eden.”.

Correct. They were in both the garden of Eden and out here in the jail cell. If they were exclusively in the Garden of Eden I think we wouldn’t be in this jail cell.

You wrote: “Precisely, until then original sin is not forgiven.”
A. No. Catechism 1263 By Baptism all sins are forgiven, original sin and all personal sins, as well as all punishment for sin.

Then why are we in this jail cell? Original sin has not been forgiven in a temporal sense.

You wrote: “… God is holding back grace from us.”
A. No. God is not holding back grace from us per the Church dogma god gives all actual graces, even before conversion.

We’re still here in the jail cell.
We are still imperfect. God says no to fixing the code.

You wrote: “God again, places us in a catch-22.”
A… Not true. One that has the state of sanctifying grace can remain free from mortal sin through exercise of their free will in conjunction with the grace of God.

Can’t get grace without free will. A person with sufficient imperfections has no free will, and thus can’t get grace. Thus a person with sufficient imperfections is doomed, can’t get the grace, can’t be saved. But the person can’t get the imperfections healed, because God says no.

This is a catch-22.

We are saved by grace alone.

You wrote: “How does one have a personal relationship with God if he never talks back?”
A. Catechism teaches us that prayer is that relationship. (Posted before.) The Church teaches the dogma of divine providence. Also each of the the baptized has a guardian angel that is present to protect and care for ones salvation.

The guardian angel doesn’t talk to me either. God the Father - silent. Holy Spirit - silent. Jesus Christ - silent. Mary - silent. All the saints - silent. Souls in purgatory - silent.

How can I have a personal relationship with someone who gives me the silent treatment?

Impossible.

" It is not necessary to eliminate all imperfection for salvation or heaven. See My Catholic Faith A Manual of Religion, By Most Reverend Louis L. R. Morrow, S.T.D., Bishop of Krishnagar, 1949, Chapter 23):

3. If a person is in the state of grace, venial sins are forgiven in many ways without necessity of confession.
​

By saying it is not necessary to eliminate all imperfections for heaven, it denies the existence of purgatory.

1. A distinction exists between venial sins and imperfections. Imperfections are faults that arise from ignorance or weakness, not from a bad will.

No such distinction exists in the temporal sphere, we are all in this jail cell.

You wrote: “Remember, the Pharisees argued over the words Jesus used and didn’t accept his hyperbolic teachings either I’m imitating our Lord here.”
A. The original statement is “You argue over the wording that the Church uses, so it appears that you do not accept it.” Why do you not state that you accept it if you do?

I accept Church teaching - as it is taught. I just use different words, but I accept the message.

You wrote: “Premise 1: You just said that if grace can only be received if one has free will. This is Church teaching.” and from Premise 2 “But if one has no free will they don’t get grace.”
A. No neither I nor the Church stated only. It should be obvious from the fact the baptized infants receive forgiveness of original sin through sanctifying grace. God is not limited to giving grace only with exercise of free will. The Church teaches dogmatically that God gives actual graces even before conversion.

But if we do not do “cooperation” good enough, game over, elevator down.

You wrote: “I don’t believe in luck, I use the word to mean “God’s favor” as in that God chose to help.”
A. That is not the meaning of luck so you are not communicating effectively. Luck: success or failure apparently brought by chance rather than through one’s own actions.

That’s why I don’t believe in luck. Chance has nothing to do with God.

However, God makes the choice and I don’t have it. If I can’t convince God to help, game over, elevator down.

A. One must die in the state of sanctifying grace for salvation.

Salvation, yes, avoiding purgatory, no. it takes more than that to avoid purgatory.​

 

[Vico]

…

You wrote: “I accept Church teaching - as it is taught.”
A. Then you should not object to the choice of words used in the Catechism.

You wrote: “They were in both the garden of Eden and out here in the jail cell.”
A. They were exclusively in the Garden of Eden.

You wrote: “Original sin has not been forgiven in a temporal sense.” and “No such distinction exists in the temporal sphere”.
A. Of course there is, as the Church teaches that there is 1) temporal punishment due sin and 2) the consequences for nature. (Catechism 405).
They are called consequences in the Catechism and Ludwig Ott calls them “so-called punishments”.

Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, by Ludwig Ott, p. 112:

**In the state of original sin man is deprived of sanctifying grace and all that this implies, as well as of the preternatural gifts of integrity. (De fide in regard to
Sanctifying Grace and the Donum Immortalitatis. D[enzinger] 788 et seq.)
**
The lack of the sanctifying grace has, as a turning away of man from God, the character of guilt and, as the turning of God away from man, the character of punishment. The lack of the gifts of integrity results in man’s being subject to concupiscence, suffering and death. These results remain even after the extirpation of Original Sin, not as punishment, but as the so-called poenalitates, that is, as the means given to man to achieve the practice of virtue and moral integrity. The person stained by Original Sin finds himself in the imprisonment and slavery of the devil whom Jesus calls “the prince,” and St. Paul “the god of this world” (2 Cor. 4,4). CE. Hebr. 2, 14; Peter 2, 19.

You wrote: " A person with sufficient imperfections has no free will, and thus can’t get grace."
A. According to Catholic dogma we do not need to exercise free will to receive grace. We receive grace in baptism as an infant, and also through actual graces before conversion. Conversion may occur before baptism and after falling into mortal sin.

You wrote: “How can I have a personal relationship with someone who gives me the silent treatment?”
A. Catechism 2713 Contemplative prayer is the simplest expression of the mystery of prayer. It is a gift, a grace; it can be accepted only in humility and poverty. Contemplative prayer is a covenant relationship established by God within our hearts.9 Contemplative prayer is a communion in which the Holy Trinity conforms man, the image of God, “to his likeness.”

You wrote: “By saying it is not necessary to eliminate all imperfections for heaven, it denies the existence of purgatory.”
A. No. Temporal punishment is the reason for purgatory and differing merits account for differences in the Beatific Vision in heaven. One dogma is that the degree of perfection of the beatific vision granted to the just is proportioned to each one’s merits. (De fide.)

You wrote: “But if we do not do “cooperation” good enough, game over, elevator down.”
A. Once baptized one will attain heaven if there is no voluntary mortal sin. So lack of voluntary sin could happen due to psychological disorders. Also a lack of mental understanding of sin such as in those that have not developed the use of reason prevents mortal sin.

You wrote: “Salvation, yes, avoiding purgatory, no. it takes more than that to avoid purgatory.”
A. As discussed before, doing penance is the solution to avoiding purgatory.

 

[EasterJoy]

Can the choice between ecstasy (Heaven) and torment (Hell) be considered a real free choice. Is it not more “do it my way or else”.

When “your way” is reality itself, teaching that way to someone who has the choice to go elsewhere is not an arrogant teaching. It is a great compassionate mercy.

Is it “do it my way or else” when someone who has sight tells someone who is blind where the obstacles are? How to walk so as to avoid falling off of a cliff? Is it “do it my way or else” when a parent teaches a child not to put his hand in a fire or not to stick a needle in her eye? When someone is taught to eat and to drink? No, these teachings are merely guiding the child to live in harmony with reality.

What if God did not teach that it was torment to be separated from God? Would it be less of a torment? No. People might not know why they were so unhappy, but they would still be suffering the consequences of separation from God. People who have no overt revelation might learn to act in a moral way, as the moral way would be in harmony with reality whereas the immoral way was not, but in the end reality is going to exert itself.

What I am saying is this: the law of God is not arbitrary. It is a road map to reality.

 

[BobCatholic]

You wrote: “I accept Church teaching - as it is taught.”
A. Then you should not object to the choice of words used in the Catechism.

I don’t object to that. I just use different words.

There are multiple ways of saying the same thing.

Is it a sin to say the same thing with different words? I don’t think so.

You wrote: “They were in both the garden of Eden and out here in the jail cell.”
A. They were exclusively in the Garden of Eden.

For a short time, yes.

You wrote: “Original sin has not been forgiven in a temporal sense.” and “No such distinction exists in the temporal sphere”.
A. Of course there is, as the Church teaches that there is 1) temporal punishment due sin and 2) the consequences for nature. (Catechism 405).
They are called consequences in the Catechism and Ludwig Ott calls them “so-called punishments”.

Original sin was not forgiven in a temporal sense, we are still here in the jail cell.

Punishment and consequences are the same thing since both were imposed by God.
God wrote the rules of nature. God wrote the code, He could have written it differently. But He didn’t.

A. According to Catholic dogma we do not need to exercise free will to receive grace.

Can we be saved without sufficient cooperation? If not, then our imperfections kill our salvation.

You wrote: “How can I have a personal relationship with someone who gives me the silent treatment?”
A. Catechism 2713 Contemplative prayer is the simplest expression of the mystery of prayer. It is a gift, a grace; it can be accepted only in humility and poverty. Contemplative prayer is a covenant relationship established by God within our hearts.9 Contemplative prayer is a communion in which the Holy Trinity conforms man, the image of God, “to his likeness.”

I have ADHD. I am unable to do contemplative prayer. This imperfection keeps me from getting close to God.

This is why I wanted to get help from God to overcome my imperfections. Another example of how imperfections can make bad things happen when it comes to relationship with God.

You wrote: “By saying it is not necessary to eliminate all imperfections for heaven, it denies the existence of purgatory.”
A. No. Temporal punishment is the reason for purgatory and differing merits account for differences in the Beatific Vision in heaven. One dogma is that the degree of perfection of the beatific vision granted to the just is proportioned to each one’s merits. (De fide.)

Temporal punishment is done for imperfections (like the big one of being attached to creatures). Thus purgatory is only for the imperfect.

You wrote: “But if we do not do “cooperation” good enough, game over, elevator down.”
A. Once baptized one will attain heaven if there is no voluntary mortal sin. So lack of voluntary sin could happen due to psychological disorders. Also a lack of mental understanding of sin such as in those that have not developed the use of reason prevents mortal sin.

I don’t know how much cooperation is good enough. I feel like nothing I do is good enough for God and that is proof of the fact I don’t have free will.

A. As discussed before, doing penance is the solution to avoiding purgatory.

It has to be sufficient penance or obtaining sufficient indulgences, and there’s no way to know if one has done enough. In addition, plenary indulgences are impossible for imperfect people to obtain, and they need them the most.

So, no way to know if penance is sufficient → free will = 0 in this case
No way to obtain a plenary indulgence for imperfect person → free will = 0 in this case
No way to know if one has obtained sufficient indulgences → free will = 0 in this case

 

[Vico]

…

You wrote: “Original sin was not forgiven in a temporal sense”.
A. Original sin can be forgiven but the consequences of original sin are not something to be forgiven, rather they serve: “as the means given to man to achieve the practice of virtue and moral integrity” - Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma.

You wrote: “Punishment and consequences are the same thing …”
A. Punishment and consequences have different meanings and a the Church chooses to use different words intentionally to show that they are different.

You wrote: “Can we be saved without sufficient cooperation?”
A. some can and I gave examples in several posts.

You wrote: “I am unable to do contemplative prayer. This imperfection keeps me from getting close to God.”
A. Any form of prayer is relationship with God.

You wrote: “purgatory is only for the imperfect.”
A. There are many kinds of imperfection. Even the imperfect may have no temporal punishment at death.

You wrote: “I don’t know how much cooperation is good enough. I feel like nothing I do is good enough for God and that is proof of the fact I don’t have free will.”
A. Feeling is no proof of that.

You wrote: …“no way to know if penance is sufficient …”
A. Only if God reveals it. Same as for salvation.

 

[BobCatholic]

You wrote: “Original sin was not forgiven in a temporal sense”.
A. Original sin can be forgiven but the consequences of original sin are not something to be forgiven, rather they serve: “as the means given to man to achieve the practice of virtue and moral integrity” - Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma.

Original sin CAN be forgiven, and is. Only the spiritual part.
The temporal part is not forgiven, we are still here in this jail cell.

You wrote: “Punishment and consequences are the same thing …”
A. Punishment and consequences have different meanings and a the Church chooses to use different words intentionally to show that they are different.

God imposed both so they’re the same, when it comes to original sin.

You wrote: “I am unable to do contemplative prayer. This imperfection keeps me from getting close to God.”
A. Any form of prayer is relationship with God.

I only have a corporate relationship with God, God doesn’t talk to me.

Even the imperfect may have no temporal punishment at death.

Impossible. “Nothing unclean shall enter heaven.” “Be ye perfect as the Heavenly Father is Perfect” Unless God was lying in those verses, which I refuse to say.

A. Feeling is no proof of that.

OK, then since feelings are not proof, the fact I’m imperfect is proof that nothing is good enough for God.

You wrote: …“no way to know if penance is sufficient …”
A. Only if God reveals it. Same as for salvation.

Correct. There is no free will in this case, can’t know = free will = 0.

 

[Vico]

…

You wote: “God imposed both so they’re the same, when it comes to original sin.”
A. Two different meanings, and for the descendants, it is a consequence:

• Punishment: the act of making a wrongdoer suffer.
• Consequence: a result or effect of an action or condition.

You wrote: Impossible “Nothing unclean shall enter heaven.”
A. Imperfections do not mean unclean.

You wrote: “OK, then since feelings are not proof, the fact I’m imperfect is proof that nothing is good enough for God.”
A. A sinful act can be called and imperfect act, however imperfections are not the same as sin. The formal sin (mortal or venial) requires exercise of free will. One can have many imperfections without being guilty of sin.

You wrote: “There is no free will in this case, can’t know = free will = 0.”
A. No, knowledge is one thing and free will is another.

 

[BobCatholic]

You wote: “God imposed both so they’re the same, when it comes to original sin.”
A. Two different meanings, and for the descendants, it is a consequence:

• Punishment: the act of making a wrongdoer suffer.
• Consequence: a result or effect of an action or condition.

Getting kicked out of the Garden was a punishment for Adam and Eve.
It is also a punishment for us. We suffer the same exact thing.

Suffering (i.e. work now is toil, increased birth pangs, etc.) were imposed by God as punishment.

it is also a punishment for us. We suffer the same exact thing.

An increased number of rules (went from 1 rule to dozens of rules) were imposed by God as punishment. We suffer the same thing.

We are not allowed to return to the Garden of Eden, this means we are still being punished.

By claiming these identical things which are punishments, are not the same is false. Utterly false.

It is a punishment imposed on A&E and their children.

You wrote: Impossible “Nothing unclean shall enter heaven.”
A. Imperfections do not mean unclean.

Then what is being cleansed away in purgatory?

Attachment to created things - an imperfection.
Are there other things besides “temporal punishment for venial sins”

One can have many imperfections without being guilty of sin.

One can have one imperfection and be punished in purgatory for them.

You wrote: “There is no free will in this case, can’t know = free will = 0.”
A. No, knowledge is one thing and free will is another.

Without knowledge, they cannot make the correct decision. That eliminates free will.

 

[Vico]

…

You wrote: “It is also a punishment for us.”
A. Original sin in us is analogical sin and therefore the consequences are analogical punishment only – since we have no personal temporal punishment due sin it is called a consequence by the Catholic Church. The differentiate in the Catechism that I have quoted to you many times (CCC 405). Also from before:

Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, by Ludwig Ott, p. 112:

In the state of original sin man is deprived of sanctifying grace and all that this implies, as well as of the preternatural gifts of integrity. (De fide in regard to
Sanctifying Grace and the Donum Immortalitatis. D[enzinger] 788 et seq.)

The lack of the sanctifying grace has, as a turning away of man from God, the character of guilt and, as the turning of God away from man, the character of punishment. The lack of the gifts of integrity results in man’s being subject to concupiscence, suffering and death. These results remain even after the extirpation of Original Sin, not as punishment, but as the so-called poenalitates, that is, as the means given to man to achieve the practice of virtue and moral integrity. The person stained by Original Sin finds himself in the imprisonment and slavery of the devil whom Jesus calls “the prince,” and St. Paul “the god of this world” (2 Cor. 4,4). CE. Hebr. 2, 14; Peter 2, 19.

You wrote: “Suffering (i.e. work now is toil, increased birth pangs, etc.) were imposed by God as punishment.”
A. Yes, for Adam and Eve who lost original justice. For us, we never had it so did not loose it, but rather have simple human nature without any preternatural gifts (which we are not due).

You wrote: “An increased number of rules (went from 1 rule to dozens of rules) were imposed by God as punishment.”
A. Not really since there is only one rule then and now: universal charity. Adam and Eve were uncharitable to God through their pride.

You wrote: “We are not allowed to return to the Garden of Eden…”
A. Someone that was never at a place cannot return to it.

You wrote: “Are there other things besides “temporal punishment for venial sins”.”
A. Temporal punishment due to sin is to eliminate certain attachments from both mortal and venial sins. When temporal punishment is eliminated it does not mean a soul if perfect in all ways.

You wrote: “One can have one imperfection and be punished in purgatory for them.”
A. Yes if you call attachment an imperfection, however there are imperfections which are not due temporal punishment, for some imperfections are not voluntary and do not constitute sin.

The various degrees of merit lead to corresponding degrees of beatitude in heaven – a dogma of faith defined at the Council of Florence. (Matthew 13:23 But the seed sown on rich soil is the one who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and yields a hundred or sixty or thirtyfold.”)

You wrote: “Without knowledge, they cannot make the correct decision. That eliminates free will.”
A. No, free will is not dependent upon knowledge, but culpability for sin is.

 

[BobCatholic]

You wrote: “It is also a punishment for us.”
A. Original sin in us is analogical sin and therefore the consequences are analogical punishment only

It is a REAL punishment. We’re still in this jail cell.

– since we have no personal temporal punishment due sin it is called a consequence by the Catholic Church.

Yes, we have no personal culpability for their sin. But we are held temporally responsible for the sins of our ancestors.

You wrote: “Suffering (i.e. work now is toil, increased birth pangs, etc.) were imposed by God as punishment.”
A. Yes, for Adam and Eve who lost original justice. For us, we never had it so did not loose it, but rather have simple human nature without any preternatural gifts (which we are not due).

Yes, for Adam and Eve, the punishment was just. They screwed up.

For us, on the other hand, we didn’t do the crime, yet we do the time.

A. Not really since there is only one rule then and now: universal charity. Adam and Eve were uncharitable to God through their pride.

Before in Eden: One rule, Don’t eat from that tree.
After Eden: 613 mitzvoh, then reduced to 10 plus 7 Church commandments, plus a huge number of roots (that Catechism is LARGE).

You wrote: “We are not allowed to return to the Garden of Eden…”
A. Someone that was never at a place cannot return to it.

OK, then we are not allowed in the Garden of Eden.

for some imperfections are not voluntary and do not constitute sin.

Doesn’t matter if they are not voluntary. Purgatory time for them!

The various degrees of merit lead to corresponding degrees of beatitude in heaven – a dogma of faith defined at the Council of Florence. (Matthew 13:23 But the seed sown on rich soil is the one who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and yields a hundred or sixty or thirtyfold.”)

Merit is something I want to get, but I’m too imperfect to get it.

You wrote: “Without knowledge, they cannot make the correct decision. That eliminates free will.”
A. No, free will is not dependent upon knowledge, but culpability for sin is.

Culpability doesn’t matter if one is going to purgatory anyway at best.

How does free will NOT depend on knowledge? If they don’t have proper knowledge, they CANNOT make the correct decision. There is no choice!

There’s a reason you want trained people to do the job. There’s a reason you want a doctor who actually went to medical school.

Saying free will is not dependent on knowledge - this is not one of your better statements dude

 

[Vico]

…

You wrote: "It is a REAL punishment. We’re still in this jail cell. "
A. Definition of punishment is: the act of making a wrongdoer suffer. Not the case here.

You wrote: “Before in Eden: One rule…”
A. Same as now since to be charitable can be broken down into categories for application.

You wrote: “Merit is something I want to get, but I’m too imperfect to get it.”
A. You have merit by praying for someone while in the state of grace. I imagine you have done that.

You wrote: "Doesn’t matter if they are not voluntary. Purgatory time for them! "
A. No, purgatory is for those saved, with temporal punishment for sin still remaining at death, and that temporal punishment for sin results from personal voluntary acts only.

You wrote: “Culpability doesn’t matter if one is going to purgatory anyway at best.”
A. It does because if not culpable for an act then there is no temporal punishment that results for that act.

You wrote: “How does free will NOT depend on knowledge?”
A. Your examples are about expertise (knowledge) combined with the exercise of judgement. Free will is the elective power to freely choose between different forms of good. There are always some drawbacks and deficiencies in every good presented to us, so not one of them irresistibly entices the will.

*Summa Theologiae > First Part > Question 83 > Article 3. Whether free-will is an appetitive power?
*
Objection 3. Further, the principal function of free-will is to choose. But choice seems to belong to knowledge, because it implies a certain comparison of one thing to another, which belongs to the cognitive power. Therefore free-will is a cognitive power.

I answer that, Although free-will [Liberum arbitrium–i.e. free judgment] in its strict sense denotes an act, in the common manner of speaking we call free-will, that which is the principle of the act by which man judges freely. …

Reply to Objection 3. This comparison which is implied in the choice belongs to the preceding counsel, which is an act of reason. For though the appetite does not make comparisons, yet forasmuch as it is moved by the apprehensive power which does compare, it has some likeness of comparison by choosing one in preference to another.

 

[BobCatholic]

You wrote: "It is a REAL punishment. We’re still in this jail cell. "
A. Definition of punishment is: the act of making a wrongdoer suffer. Not the case here.

But we are wrongdoers. We are imperfect mortals. We are worthless servants. We are nothing but wheat that must be ground into fine powder and baked into bread. We are nothing but grapes that must be squashed to make juice and then fermented to make wine. We have no value nor any real dignity.

Babies are treated as criminals because they are criminals. Children before the age of reason are treated as criminals because they are criminals. Mentally ill people are treated as criminals because they are criminals. People without free will are treated as criminals because they are criminals.

This is why we are treated as criminals, because we are criminals. We are guilty of being imperfect, and there is no choice around that. If we were only created perfect, we could make the right decisions. There is no choice in the matter. Free will = 0.

This is why we are in this jail cell. There is no choice, no free will to avoid this punishment.

You wrote: “Before in Eden: One rule…”
A. Same as now since to be charitable can be broken down into categories for application.

How is it charitable to not eat from a tree? Charity is toward other people, not toward a tree.

My point still stands. Before Eden one rule, after Eden, tons of rules. Before Eden lots of preternatural gifts, after Eden, no gifts. Before Eden more strength to overcome temptation, after Eden none of that. Double standard big time.

You wrote: “Merit is something I want to get, but I’m too imperfect to get it.”
A. You have merit by praying for someone while in the state of grace. I imagine you have done that.

I’ve done this daily, for many intentions.
But I could be fooling myself and not be in a state of grace, and thus my prayers are worthless.

You wrote: "Doesn’t matter if they are not voluntary. Purgatory time for them! "
A. No, purgatory is for those saved, with temporal punishment for sin still remaining at death, and that temporal punishment for sin results from personal voluntary acts only.

Nope! Not “only” for personal voluntary acts only. It is also for imperfections, which we have no choice in having.

Attachment to creatures is an imperfection punishable by purgatory. It is one exception to your “only” statement. I’m sure there are other imperfections subject to that as well.

You wrote: “Culpability doesn’t matter if one is going to purgatory anyway at best.”
A. It does because if not culpable for an act then there is no temporal punishment that results for that act.

Culpability doesn’t matter if one is going to purgatory for imperfections. Attachment to creatures is an imperfection punishable by purgatory

You wrote: “How does free will NOT depend on knowledge?”
A. Your examples are about expertise (knowledge) combined with the exercise of judgement. Free will is the elective power to freely choose between different forms of good. There are always some drawbacks and deficiencies in every good presented to us, so not one of them irresistibly entices the will.

And if one does not have sufficient knowledge, how will someone choose the greater good? There is no choice.

I answer that, Although free-will [Liberum arbitrium–i.e. free judgment] in its strict sense denotes an act, in the common manner of speaking we call free-will, that which is the principle of the act by which man judges freely. …

Reply to Objection 3. This comparison which is implied in the choice belongs to the preceding counsel, which is an act of reason. For though the appetite does not make comparisons, yet forasmuch as it is moved by the apprehensive power which does compare, it has some likeness of comparison by choosing one in preference to another]

And how does the person compare without knowledge? No comparison, no choice. No choice, no free will.

How does a man judge freely if they don’t have the knowledge to make the comparison or decision?

You find a bomb that has a 1 minute countdown on the clock. This bomb will kill lots of people, and you have a pair of scissors to cut the one line that will disable it. No time for the bomb squad to get there. It is all up to you.

Unfortunately, you don’t have knowledge of bombs so there’s no choice but death.

 

[Vico]

…

You wrote “But we are wrongdoers.”
A. Born without sanctifying grace but without any personal sin. Catechism

1250 Born with a fallen human nature and tainted by original sin, children also have need of the new birth in Baptism to be freed from the power of darkness and brought into the realm of the freedom of the children of God, to which all men are called.50 The sheer gratuitousness of the grace of salvation is particularly manifest in infant Baptism. …

You wrote: “How is it charitable to not eat from a tree? Charity is toward other people, not toward a tree.”
A. Catechism 1855 Mortal sin destroys charity in the heart of man by a grave violation of God’s law; it turns man away from God, who is his ultimate end and his beatitude, by preferring an inferior good to him. …

You wrote: " Double standard big time. "
A. Double standard definition includes unfairness. Not so with regard to Adam and Eve and the descendants.

You wrote: “Nope! Not “only” for personal voluntary acts only. It is also for imperfections, which we have no choice in having.”
A. Only for temporal punishment. Council of Trent, Session VICANON XXX.-If any one saith, that, after the grace of Justification has been received, to every penitent sinner the guilt is remitted, and the debt of eternal punishment is blotted out in such wise, that there remains not any debt of temporal punishment to be discharged either in this world, or in the next in Purgatory, before the entrance to the kingdom of heaven can be opened (to him); let him be anathema.

You wrote: “Attachment to creatures is an imperfection punishable by purgatory. It is one exception to your “only” statement.”
A. No, it is what the Catechism states is the result of mortal and venial sin.

You wrote: “Culpability doesn’t matter if one is going to purgatory for imperfections.”
A. Purgatory is only the result of being culpable for sin.

You wrote: “And if one does not have sufficient knowledge, how will someone choose the greater good? There is no choice. … No choice, no free will.”
A. Yes there is free will.

You wrote: “How does a man judge freely if they don’t have the knowledge to make the comparison or decision?”
A. That is a question about culpability not free will. It is possible to be invincibly ignorant so that one is not culpable.

You wrote: “Unfortunately, you don’t have knowledge of bombs so there’s no choice but death.”
A. There is still a choice to act or not to act or to act in different ways.

 

[BobCatholic]

You wrote “But we are wrongdoers.”
A. Born without sanctifying grace but without any personal sin. Catechism

Treated as criminals yet we are not criminals.

You wrote: “How is it charitable to not eat from a tree? Charity is toward other people, not toward a tree.”
A. Catechism 1855 Mortal sin destroys charity in the heart of man by a grave violation of God’s law; it turns man away from God, who is his ultimate end and his beatitude, by preferring an inferior good to him. …

Doesn’t answer the question. How is it charitable to not eat from a tree?

You wrote: " Double standard big time. "
A. Double standard definition includes unfairness. Not so with regard to Adam and Eve and the descendants.

It does count as a double standard. Before and after Eden God treated humanity in two different ways and held them to different standards.

You wrote: “Nope! Not “only” for personal voluntary acts only. It is also for imperfections, which we have no choice in having.”
A. Only for temporal punishment. Council of Trent, Session VICANON XXX.-If any one saith, that, after the grace of Justification has been received, to every penitent sinner the guilt is remitted, and the debt of eternal punishment is blotted out in such wise, that there remains not any debt of temporal punishment to be discharged either in this world, or in the next in Purgatory, before the entrance to the kingdom of heaven can be opened (to him); let him be anathema.

Then we have a problem.

Why is there temporal punishment for “attachment to creatures” in purgatory. Is it a sin?
If it is not a sin, then why is there temporal punishment? I thought temporal punishment was for actual sin.

You wrote: “Attachment to creatures is an imperfection punishable by purgatory. It is one exception to your “only” statement.”
A. No, it is what the Catechism states is the result of mortal and venial sin.

Mortal sin and venial sin have temporal punishments.

Here we have an imperfection that has a temporal punishment. Is this a mortal or venial sin? Can’t be mortal because this happens in purgatory, so is it a venial sin?

You wrote: “Culpability doesn’t matter if one is going to purgatory for imperfections.”
A. Purgatory is only the result of being culpable for sin.

So you’re saying that attachment to creatures is a sin.

You wrote: “And if one does not have sufficient knowledge, how will someone choose the greater good? There is no choice. … No choice, no free will.”
A. Yes there is free will.

How, without knowledge?

You wrote: “How does a man judge freely if they don’t have the knowledge to make the comparison or decision?”
A. That is a question about culpability not free will. It is possible to be invincibly ignorant so that one is not culpable.

If one undergoes temporal punishment for an imperfection, then culpability is not an issue.

You wrote: “Unfortunately, you don’t have knowledge of bombs so there’s no choice but death.”
A. There is still a choice to act or not to act or to act in different ways.

That choice makes no difference, the bomb explodes either which way. Free will = 0.

 

[Vico]

…

You wrote: “How is it charitable to not eat from a tree?”
A. Disobedience to God is uncharitible. Catechism1855 Mortal sin destroys charity in the heart of man by a grave violation of God’s law; it turns man away from God, who is his ultimate end and his beatitude, by preferring an inferior good to him.

You wrote: “It does count as a double standard. Before and after Eden God treated humanity in two different ways and held them to different standards.”
A. No, it is not the definition of double standard is: a rule or principle that is unfairly applied in different ways to different people or groups.

You wrote: “Why is there temporal punishment for “attachment to creatures” in purgatory. Is it a sin?”
A. Temporal punishment is for actual sin. Attachment to creatures is not a sin but the effect of actual sin. Catechism1472 To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the “eternal punishment” of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the “temporal punishment” of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain. 84

You wrote: "How, without knowledge? [to choose the greater good?] and “That choice makes no difference, the bomb explodes either which way. Free will = 0.”
A. That is illogical since free will does not imply that use of it will have the desired effect.