Is our free choice real

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. . . Don’t know what kind of professional counseling Shrink? That doesn’t work, just a pseudoscience at $150/hour paying for someone else’s yacht. I’m better off buying a soda and pouring out my heart to a bartender. . . Only if I can stay employed. One day my field will die and I’ll be permanently unemployed with no hope . . . It is only a matter of time. . . forces that go against me. . . how to provide for my family . … . become a bad husband and father . . . living on the streets. . .“Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in!”
If a quarter of this stuff is what goes on in your internal dialogue, this is serious. The problem isn’t in the possibility of your worries coming true, but the fact that you are subject to this chronic mental torture. While there may be spiritual aspects to your presentation here, what I see is consistent with a psychiatric disorder. What you need is a prescription for the right type of antidepressant medication. This is no insult or put down, join the many millions of people who have mental health and addiction issues and get help!
 
You wrote: “The reason why we are not returning or cannot return is because the temporal punishment of original sin was never forgiven. And forgiving Adam and Eve won’t change that.”
A. Those that attain salvation will receive the gifts that Adam and Eve were given, at their resurrection. We are not returning because we were never there. Adam and Eve are not returning because, although they were there, New Jerusalem and New Earth are what will be, not Eden.

I am glade you forgive them.

You wrote: “I did not consent to having concupiscence imposed on me.”
A. Since you were not created yet, there was not way to consent. Also we exist for the pleasure of God.

You wrote: “It talks about spiritual harm, not temporal harm. Concupiscence is harmful in a temporal sense, as we are still held temporally responsible for the sins of A&E.”
A. Yes, the harm of mortal sin.

You wrote: “Add to this that it negatively impacts one’s free will, so that is a harm as well, a temporal harm. And this temporal harm leads to the spiritual harm of being thrown in hell.”
A. No, a person that has received sanctifying grace does not end in hell through temporal effects but through an act of will and if that one does not act with free will also does not receive hell for it.

You wrote: “And since we are not guaranteed final perseverance, it is ridiculously easy to go to hell and horrifically difficult to get to heaven.”
A. One in a state of sanctifying grace can persevere and thereby get to heaven. There is nothing that will cause that loss to occur but free will choice. It may, as the Church teaches, be difficult. So not a joke at all.

You wrote: “It does not cure concupiscence. If it did, I’d not have any.”
A. So you do not mean overcome, but have no temptation. By design, we have the temptation through which, with grace, we receive the crown of glory in heaven.

You wrote: "Yes, dismiss it blithely - means you don’t have to deal with the issue. "
A. No, that would mean “unworthy of serious consideration” and if you want to use a phrase that does not involve fairness, which double standard does, then let us. As commented before, it goes against dogma of the Church on the nature of God and He is not unfair, therefore there is no double standard.

You wrote: “Actually, she wasn’t. Jesus was also immaculately conceived.”
A… The immaculate conception dogma only applies the Blessed Virgin Mary. Jesus Christ was not conceived of two humans. In that sense neither were Adam and Eve and the immaculate conception dogma does not apply to them either. What we know is that there is no dogmatic definition of when Adam and Eve received the state of sanctifying grace but there is for the Blessed Virgin Mary and Jesus Christ.

You wrote: “God does not care about the temporal, He only cares about the spiritual. That’s why we are in this jail cell.”
A. Temporal suffering is necessary in order for us to be like Christ.
 
If a quarter of this stuff is what goes on in your internal dialogue, this is serious. The problem isn’t in the possibility of your worries coming true, but the fact that you are subject to this chronic mental torture. While there may be spiritual aspects to your presentation here, what I see is consistent with a psychiatric disorder. What you need is a prescription for the right type of antidepressant medication. This is no insult or put down, join the many millions of people who have mental health and addiction issues and get help!
Two things.

First, a diagnosis of depression was ruled out by two different shrinks I did see in the past. Do you have your psychiatric degree?

Second, just because I worry about the future does not mean I have a mental disease. It is not like I’m worried about aliens from outer space invading or that everyone is out to kill me. Depression has specific symptoms, and I don’t have them. I have no thoughts of suicide. I have no outlandish over the top worries.

We live in a fallen world.
 
You wrote: “The reason why we are not returning or cannot return is because the temporal punishment of original sin was never forgiven. And forgiving Adam and Eve won’t change that.”
A. Those that attain salvation will receive the gifts that Adam and Eve were given, at their resurrection.
The resurrection takes place after we die, not one second before. There is no resurrection here in this jail cell.
We are not returning because we were never there.
Humanity was there, and it was God’s will that humanity be there. Otherwise, God would never have said “be fruitful and multiply” IN the Garden.
You wrote: “I did not consent to having concupiscence imposed on me.”
A. Since you were not created yet, there was not way to consent. Also we exist for the pleasure of God.
No way to consent → free will = 0 there.

And we don’t exist for pleasure. Life in this jail cell is never supposed to have happiness in it.
You wrote: “It talks about spiritual harm, not temporal harm. Concupiscence is harmful in a temporal sense, as we are still held temporally responsible for the sins of A&E.”
A. Yes, the harm of mortal sin.
And the harm of mortal sin is hell. Thus concupiscence is the ultimate harm.

And God does not want to heal this.
You wrote: “Add to this that it negatively impacts one’s free will, so that is a harm as well, a temporal harm. And this temporal harm leads to the spiritual harm of being thrown in hell.”
A. No, a person that has received sanctifying grace does not end in hell through temporal effects but through an act of will and if that one does not act with free will also does not receive hell for it.
But you just said the harm of concupiscence is mortal sin - that leads to hell. So you contradicted yourself.
You wrote: “And since we are not guaranteed final perseverance, it is ridiculously easy to go to hell and horrifically difficult to get to heaven.”
A. One in a state of sanctifying grace can persevere and thereby get to heaven. There is nothing that will cause that loss to occur but free will choice. It may, as the Church teaches, be difficult. So not a joke at all.
One is a state of grace is not guaranteed to persevere and get to heaven. OSAS is heresy.

In addition, even if one dies in a state of grace, one is not guaranteed to go to heaven right away. Purgatory exists, which is a punishment of sins forgiven.
You wrote: “It does not cure concupiscence. If it did, I’d not have any.”
A. So you do not mean overcome, but have no temptation. By design, we have the temptation through which, with grace, we receive the crown of glory in heaven.
Temptation without the strength to defeat it, is guaranteed failure.
This is why I want concupicense gone. God wants it both ways - too weak to overcome concupiscence and no way to heal it.
You wrote: "Yes, dismiss it blithely - means you don’t have to deal with the issue. "
A. No, that would mean “unworthy of serious consideration” and if you want to use a phrase that does not involve fairness, which double standard does, then let us. As commented before, it goes against dogma of the Church on the nature of God and He is not unfair, therefore there is no double standard.
It is a double standard. A&E were held to one standard in the garden, and we are held to another.
You wrote: “God does not care about the temporal, He only cares about the spiritual. That’s why we are in this jail cell.”
A. Temporal suffering is necessary in order for us to be like Christ.
Correct. God the Father only wants Jesus in heaven. Everyone else who desires to be in heaven must be like Christ, and not themselves. The self is evil, and must be obliterated through self-abnegation. We must be like Jesus because God does not want us as who we are.
 
You wrote: “The resurrection takes place after we die, not one second before. There is no resurrection here in this jail cell.”
A. Only from purgatory or heaven.

You wrote: “Humanity was there, and it was God’s will that humanity be there. Otherwise, God would never have said “be fruitful and multiply” IN the Garden.”
A. In my comment I mean the descendants of Adam and Eve.

You wrote “And the harm of mortal sin is hell. Thus concupiscence is the ultimate harm.”
A. That is contrary to what the Church teaches, which is that concupiscence is merely the test and sin is harmful.

You stated “It talks about spiritual harm, not temporal harm.” and “But you just said the harm of concupiscence is mortal sin - that leads to hell. So you contradicted yourself.”
A. No so, read it again. I answered “Yes, the harm of mortal sin.”

You wrote: “One is a state of grace is not guaranteed to persevere and get to heaven. OSAS is heresy.”
A. True. The dogma I refer to which pertains to those in the state of sanctifying grace that it is possible to not sin mortally until death. This is a matter of free will.
Council of Trent, Session VI:
828 Can. 18. If anyone shall say that the commandments of God are even for a man who is justified and confirmed in grace impossible to observe: let him be anathema [cf. n. 804].

804 But no one, however much justified, should consider himself exempt from the observance of the commandments [can. 20]; no one should make use of that rash statement forbidden under an anathema by the Fathers, that the commandments of God are impossible to observe for a man who is justified [can. 18 and 22: cf. n. 200]. “For God does not command impossibilities, but by commanding admonishes you both to do what you can do, and to pray for what you cannot do, and assists you that you may be able”; * “whose commandments are not heavy” [1 John 5:3], “whose yoke is sweet and whose burden is light” [Matt. 11:30]. For they who are the sons of God, love Christ: “but they who love him, (as He Himself testifies) keep his words” [John 14:23], which indeed with the divine help they can do. For although in this mortal life men however holy and just fall at times into at least light and daily sins, which are also called venial [can. 23], they do not for that reason cease to be just. …

You wrote: “Temptation without the strength to defeat it, is guaranteed failure.”
A. That is why God gives us sanctifying grace.

You wrote: “In addition, even if one dies in a state of grace, one is not guaranteed to go to heaven right away. Purgatory exists, which is a punishment of sins forgiven.”
A. No guarantee.

You wrote: “It is a double standard. A&E were held to one standard in the garden, and we are held to another.”
A. That statement is not correct since double standard includes unfairness in application. That is not the case.

You wrote: “We must be like Jesus because God does not want us as who we are.”
A. In keeping with the Catechism
1264 Yet certain temporal consequences of sin remain in the baptized, such as suffering, illness, death, and such frailties inherent in life as weaknesses of character, and so on, as well as an inclination to sin that Tradition calls concupiscence, or metaphorically, “the tinder for sin” (fomes peccati); since concupiscence "is left for us to wrestle with, it cannot harm those who do not consent but manfully resist it by the grace of Jesus Christ."67 Indeed, "an athlete is not crowned unless he competes according to the rules."68
 
You wrote: “The resurrection takes place after we die, not one second before. There is no resurrection here in this jail cell.”
A. Only from purgatory or heaven.
Precisely. Here in this jail cell, we are a prisoner to sin. Other people commit sins and we pay the price for them.
You wrote: “Humanity was there, and it was God’s will that humanity be there. Otherwise, God would never have said “be fruitful and multiply” IN the Garden.”
A. In my comment I mean the descendants of Adam and Eve.
Right. It was God’s will that A&E’s descendants be in the Garden, because God told them to be fruitful and multiply while in the garden.
You wrote “And the harm of mortal sin is hell. Thus concupiscence is the ultimate harm.”
A. That is contrary to what the Church teaches, which is that concupiscence is merely the test and sin is harmful.
I described the double standard of the test.

Adam and Eve were given preternatural gifts and given a first grade math test. It had a simple question and God gave them the answer ahead of time. They failed.

We are far more imperfect than they are and are given a calculus test. In addition, the pencil is broken, and the ink on the paper is written in invisible ink. Oh, and there is no desk to write on, and the school is on fire. Add to that, a deranged shooter is shooting random bullets into random classrooms.

Double standard.
You wrote: “One is a state of grace is not guaranteed to persevere and get to heaven. OSAS is heresy.”
A. True. The dogma I refer to which pertains to those in the state of sanctifying grace that it is possible to not sin mortally until death. This is a matter of free will.
Council of Trent, Session VI:
828 Can. 18. If anyone shall say that the commandments of God are even for a man who is justified and confirmed in grace impossible to observe: let him be anathema [cf. n. 804].
I never said it was impossible to observe the commandments of God while in a state of grace.

I said it was horrifically difficult to do so. After all we are given a calculus test. In addition, the pencil is broken, and the ink on the paper is written in invisible ink. Oh, and there is no desk to write on, and the school is on fire. Add to that, a deranged shooter is shooting random bullets into random classrooms.

That’s the test of life.
You wrote: “Temptation without the strength to defeat it, is guaranteed failure.”
A. That is why God gives us sanctifying grace.
Which does not guarantee final perseverance.
You wrote: “In addition, even if one dies in a state of grace, one is not guaranteed to go to heaven right away. Purgatory exists, which is a punishment of sins forgiven.”
A. No guarantee.
Agreed, there is no guarantee one can make it into purgatory, or heaven.
You wrote: “It is a double standard. A&E were held to one standard in the garden, and we are held to another.”
A. That statement is not correct since double standard includes unfairness in application. That is not the case.
They did the crime, we do the time. That is the very definition of unfairness in application.
You wrote: “We must be like Jesus because God does not want us as who we are.”
A. In keeping with the Catechism
"an athlete is not crowned unless he competes according to the rules."68

Correct. God only wants Jesus. The self is evil, that’s why self-abnegation is required. The self must be obliterated and we must become Jesus.

In heaven, only Jesus is there. He looks like a lot of different people, but only Jesus is there.

God does not want me, he wants Jesus. Jesus was not a married man with a son, thus as a layman, I am at best a second class citizen.​
 
You wrote: “Precisely. Here in this jail cell, we are a prisoner to sin. Other people commit sins and we pay the price for them.”
A. The Church is injured by sin.

You wrote: “Right. It was God’s will that A&E’s descendants be in the Garden, because God told them to be fruitful and multiply while in the garden.”
A. This is what I wrote: “We are not returning because we were never there.” and “In my comment I mean the descendants of Adam and Eve.” So I think you missed the meaning.

You wrote: “I described the double standard of the test.”
A. The definition of double standard includes unfair application. God is not unfair, therefore no double standard.

You wrote: “I never said it was impossible to observe the commandments of God while in a state of grace. I said it was horrifically difficult to do so.”
A. Yes, already acknowledged that there are difficult trials. And Jesus Christ said Matthew 11:
28 Come to me, all you that labour, and are burdened, and I will refresh you. 29 Take up my yoke upon you, and learn of me, because I am meek, and humble of heart: and you shall find rest to your souls. 30 For my yoke is sweet and my burden light.

You wrote: "Which does not guarantee final perseverance. "
A. Only the grace from God plus our free will choice not to sin mortally will guarantee final perseverance.

You wrote: “In heaven, only Jesus is there. He looks like a lot of different people, but only Jesus is there.”
A. No, Jesus Christ has divine nature and human nature, but the souls of the just humans have only human nature, and each a different person. The divinization does not eliminate human nature or destroy the person. Now divinization occurs even before heaven: Catechism1988 Through the power of the Holy Spirit we take part in Christ’s Passion by dying to sin, and in his Resurrection by being born to a new life; we are members of his Body which is the Church, branches grafted onto the vine which is himself:36

[God] gave himself to us through his Spirit. By the participation of the Spirit, we become communicants in the divine nature. . . . For this reason, those in whom the Spirit dwells are divinized.37

1996 Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.46​
 
A. The Church is injured by sin.
That’s another way of saying the same thing I said.
A. This is what I wrote: “We are not returning because we were never there.” and “In my comment I mean the descendants of Adam and Eve.” So I think you missed the meaning.
We are not returning because we are held temporally responsible for the sins of our ancestors. God is punishing us because of the sins of A&E.

I did not miss your meaning. I meant that the descendants of Adam and Eve were originally planned by God to be there, but God’s plan adapted to the new reality. God foreknew that the plan A would not go through so Plan B (Christ) was put in place.
You wrote: “I described the double standard of the test.”
A. The definition of double standard includes unfair application. God is not unfair, therefore no double standard.
Adam and Eve were given preternatural gifts and given a first grade math test. It had a simple question and God gave them the answer ahead of time. They failed.

We are far more imperfect than they are and are given a calculus test. In addition, the pencil is broken, and the ink on the paper is written in invisible ink. Oh, and there is no desk to write on, and the school is on fire. Add to that, a deranged shooter is shooting random bullets into random classrooms.

Tell me how this is fair? This is definitely unfair application.

What would be fair is this. A&E messed up despite their preternatural gifts. So the solution is to fix the buggy code. God fixes the buggy code and free will is restored.
For my yoke is sweet and my burden light.[/INDENT]
Read the lives of the saints. They endured HORRIFIC suffering. That’s a light yoke? Of course not, it is a full blown cross slamming down on the person, causing multiple falls.
A. Only the grace from God plus our free will choice not to sin mortally will guarantee final perseverance.
If God does not want to help OR we do not have full free will, game over. Elevator down. God does not want me.
A. No, Jesus Christ has divine nature and human nature, but the souls of the just humans have only human nature, and each a different person. The divinization does not eliminate human nature or destroy the person.
I think you misunderstood me. I was using hyperbole. You took my hyperbole and took me literally.

I didn’t say only one person is in heaven. I said that only one kind of person is heaven - and that person is the Jesus kind. Every saint looks like Jesus (not physically, but personality wise, character wise). Thus, only Jesus is allowed in heaven (hyperbole!)
[God] gave himself to us through his Spirit. By the participation of the Spirit, we become communicants in the divine nature. . . . For this reason, those in whom the Spirit dwells are divinized.37
I want this. I want this. I want this. I want this. I want this. I want this. I want this. I want this. I want this. I want this. I want this. I want this. I want this. I want this. I want this. I want this. I want this. I want this. I want this. I want this. I want this. I want this. I want this. I want this. I want this. I want this. I want this. I want this. I want this. I want this. I want this. I want this. I want this.

God says no. I am not more saintly, I’m stuck in a holding pattern without any chance of taking off.
1996 Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.46[/INDENT]
God has not given me the grace to overcome my imperfections.

Through willing it, I have gotten past most mortal sins in my life. If I am aware of mortal sin, I go to confession at the earliest opportunity. Right now, I am not aware of any mortal sins. I believe I am in a state of grace.

That’s not good enough for me. I have been stuck at this spiritual level for ages, with no ability to move up to the higher levels. I have no choice, because my ability is not there.

Since I can easily fool myself, I could be wrong that I’m in a state of grace. I could be wrong that I actually am a real Catholic, or that I am actually loved and wanted by God.

The fact that I can fool myself and have no idea if I am fooling myself, means that I cannot say I have free will. The devil is very subtle, his tricks are very diverse and varied. He is not obvious, he comes as an angel of light and even promotes light (in a perverted way).

Am I saved because I have no free will? I can’t say that. Scripture teaches I will still get lashes, and that means I’m not saved. Christ is my savior, slavery is not my savior.

This is why I believe I cannot have a personal relationship with God. I am blocked from doing so, and have no choice in the matter. I can only have a corporate relationship with God at best.

Free will = 0 and there’s nothing I can do about that.

The irony is that by exercising our will, we reduce free will. And it doesn’t have to involve sin for this to be true. Every decision, good or bad, forecloses other decisions and closes other doors. Decisions are mutually exclusive but not sinful, are like this.

This is why I say free will is a cruel joke at best.

This is why, without God’s help, the downward spiral is the only way for a person to go. Despair is their lot. The devil wins.
 
You wrote: “Precisely. Here in this jail cell, we are a prisoner to sin. Other people commit sins and we pay the price for them.”
A. The Church is injured by sin.

You wrote: “Right. It was God’s will that A&E’s descendants be in the Garden, because God told them to be fruitful and multiply while in the garden.”
A. This is what I wrote: “We are not returning because we were never there.” and “In my comment I mean the descendants of Adam and Eve.” So I think you missed the meaning.

You wrote: “I described the double standard of the test.”
A. The definition of double standard includes unfair application. God is not unfair, therefore no double standard.

You wrote: “I never said it was impossible to observe the commandments of God while in a state of grace. I said it was horrifically difficult to do so.”
A. Yes, already acknowledged that there are difficult trials. And Jesus Christ said Matthew 11:
28 Come to me, all you that labour, and are burdened, and I will refresh you. 29 Take up my yoke upon you, and learn of me, because I am meek, and humble of heart: and you shall find rest to your souls. 30 For my yoke is sweet and my burden light.

You wrote: "Which does not guarantee final perseverance. "
A. Only the grace from God plus our free will choice not to sin mortally will guarantee final perseverance.

You wrote: “In heaven, only Jesus is there. He looks like a lot of different people, but only Jesus is there.”
A. No, Jesus Christ has divine nature and human nature, but the souls of the just humans have only human nature, and each a different person. The divinization does not eliminate human nature or destroy the person. Now divinization occurs even before heaven: Catechism1988 Through the power of the Holy Spirit we take part in Christ’s Passion by dying to sin, and in his Resurrection by being born to a new life; we are members of his Body which is the Church, branches grafted onto the vine which is himself:36

[God] gave himself to us through his Spirit. By the participation of the Spirit, we become communicants in the divine nature. . . . For this reason, those in whom the Spirit dwells are divinized.37

1996 Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.46​
You should win an award for patience!
 
Are his answers considered with equal seriousness?
Yes. The problem is that some answers do not address some of the questions.

Example: why we are held temporally responsible for the sins of our ancestors (no revelation exists answering this question and he could easily admit that)

And some answers don’t address the issues I’m struggling with (i.e. I see our tests outside of the garden as 50,000x harder with less resources than the test given to A&E in the garden who had more resources, and I see this as a double standard.)

And there’s the part where I’m trying to get closer to God, failing miserably, and nobody’s yet helped me with that besides telling me to pray (which is a monologue, God ignoring me)
Telling me Church teaching that prayer is a personal relationship, does’t help, as prayer is a monologue.

What do I want? To avoid hearing those most heart breaking words at the judgment “I do not know you” from the Lord.

I guess I’m just horrible at communicating, because I can’t get the answers.
 
You wrote: "I did not miss your meaning. I meant that the descendants of Adam and Eve were originally planned by God to be there, but God’s plan adapted to the new reality. God foreknew that the plan A would not go through so Plan B (Christ) was put in place. "
A. No, because God is not subject to time and from our perspective always knew the events and that only Adam and Eve would have original justice and that no descendants would be in the Garden East of Eden. We speak of a hypothetical potential, even though God knows the outcome. God does not change.

You wrote: “They failed. We are far more imperfect than they are …”. and “Tell me how this is fair?”
A. God gives greater or lesser strength in grace as necessary to overcome the temptation of each person, so the number of imperfections is irrelevant. Mortal sin is a matter of free will and is not determined by imperfections.

You wrote: “That’s a light yoke?” and “I believe I am in a state of grace. … I have been stuck at this spiritual level for ages, with no ability to move up to the higher levels. I have no choice, because my ability is not there”
A. Jesus supplies the power (grace) to submit and obey. That is light compared to what the Jews had and he is addressing the Jews.

You wrote: “If God does not want to help OR we do not have full free will, game over.”
A. a) God does want to help and has, he sent His Word to bring us truth and His Spirit to make us holy.
b) In the baptized, Hell is only the result of mortal sin and mortal sin cannot occur without free will, therefore if there is not free will there is no Hell either. This also applies to those that never achieve the full use of reason before their death (e.g., mental debility or infants).

You wrote: “You took my hyperbole and took me literally.”
A. I simply deny exaggerated statements or claims, so you will have to tell me when you do that.

You wrote: “Thus, only Jesus is allowed in heaven (hyperbole!)”
A. Only Jesus types that is. Christ-like.

You wrote: “God has not given me the grace to overcome my imperfections.” .and “Am I saved because I have no free will?”
A. Everyone has imperfections but what is so important is to not sin mortally. God gives grace to the properly disposed, in conjunction with each act of will such that no mortal sin will occur. If you are in the state of sanctifying grace at death then you are saved. You cannot loose that without free will choice.

You wrote: “I can only have a corporate relationship with God at best.”
A. You know the future? Prayer is our relationship with God, even when we do not hear the response.

You wrote: “The irony is that by exercising our will, we reduce free will.”
A. That is not a description of free will but of degrees of freedom.
 
You wrote: "I did not miss your meaning. I meant that the descendants of Adam and Eve were originally planned by God to be there, but God’s plan adapted to the new reality. God foreknew that the plan A would not go through so Plan B (Christ) was put in place. "
A. No, because God is not subject to time and from our perspective always knew the events and that only Adam and Eve would have original justice and that no descendants would be in the Garden East of Eden. We speak of a hypothetical potential, even though God knows the outcome. God does not change.
I know God does not change, but the plan had multiple phases. Before the fall and after the fall.
You wrote: “They failed. We are far more imperfect than they are …”. and “Tell me how this is fair?”
A. God gives greater or lesser strength in grace as necessary to overcome the temptation of each person, so the number of imperfections is irrelevant. Mortal sin is a matter of free will and is not determined by imperfections.
The number of imperfections IS relevant because God did not guarantee that we would have the strength to overcome our imperfections. God did not provide a cure for concupiscence until AFTER we are dead.
You wrote: “That’s a light yoke?” and “I believe I am in a state of grace. … I have been stuck at this spiritual level for ages, with no ability to move up to the higher levels. I have no choice, because my ability is not there”
A. Jesus supplies the power (grace) to submit and obey. That is light compared to what the Jews had and he is addressing the Jews.
Where’s the Church teaching for this?
You wrote: “If God does not want to help OR we do not have full free will, game over.”
A. a) God does want to help and has, he sent His Word to bring us truth and His Spirit to make us holy.
b) In the baptized, Hell is only the result of mortal sin and mortal sin cannot occur without free will, therefore if there is not free will there is no Hell either. This also applies to those that never achieve the full use of reason before their death (e.g., mental debility or infants).
i’m not perfect. I can’t choose to be perfect, there is no choice there. God requires us to be perfect to get to heaven.
You wrote: “You took my hyperbole and took me literally.”
A. I simply deny exaggerated statements or claims, so you will have to tell me when you do that.
Then you’d have to do the same to Christ’s teachings when He uses hyperbole. I don’t think you want to go there.
You wrote: “Thus, only Jesus is allowed in heaven (hyperbole!)”
A. Only Jesus types that is. Christ-like.
That’s what I meant 🙂
You wrote: “God has not given me the grace to overcome my imperfections.” .and “Am I saved because I have no free will?”
A. Everyone has imperfections but what is so important is to not sin mortally. God gives grace to the properly disposed, in conjunction with each act of will such that no mortal sin will occur. If you are in the state of sanctifying grace at death then you are saved. You cannot loose that without free will choice.
But how can I know I’m not in a state of grace? I am capable of fooling myself and I don’t want to find out the hard way I was wrong.
You wrote: “I can only have a corporate relationship with God at best.”
A. You know the future? Prayer is our relationship with God, even when we do not hear the response.
A corporate relationship is all I got now, and every attempt I made to get closer to God has failed. God plays hard to get, and this is HIS choice, not mine.
You wrote: “The irony is that by exercising our will, we reduce free will.”
A. That is not a description of free will but of degrees of freedom.
Nope. This is Church teaching.

CCC 1791 This ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility. This is the case when a man “takes little trouble to find out what is true and good, or when conscience is by degrees almost ** blinded through the habit of committing sin**.” In such cases, the person is culpable for the evil he commits.

Someone gets in the habit of committing sin, it becomes harder and harder to stop, and game over, free will = 0.

This is why we cannot do the Bart Simpson method (i.e. “do whatever you want all your life and then do a presto-change-o conversation on the deathbed”) - by that time, one’s heart is so hardened through sin they cannot convert.
 
You wrote: “I know God does not change, but the plan had multiple phases. Before the fall and after the fall.”
A. So Adam and Eve are exclusively in the Garden of Eden with God’s foreknowledge.

You wrote: “The number of imperfections IS relevant because God did not guarantee that we would have the strength to overcome our imperfections. God did not provide a cure for concupiscence until AFTER we are dead.”
A. There is the part that God contributes and the part that the person contributes. God give sufficient strength through grace for the one in the state of sanctifying grace to remain free from all mortal sin, contingent upon the free will choice of the person to abide in charity. The cure is grace, the test must remain to receive our crown of glory.

You wrote: "Where’s the Church teaching for this?:
A. Council of Trent. thecounciloftrent.com/ch6.htm
Session VI, CHAPTER XI.
…no one ought to make use of that rash saying, one prohibited by the Fathers under an anathema, that the observance of the commandments of God is impossible for one that is justified. For God commands not impossibilities, but, by commanding, both admonishes thee to do what thou are able, and to pray for what thou art not able (to do), and aids thee that thou mayest be able; whose commandments are not heavy; whose yoke is sweet and whose burthen light. For, whoso are the sons of God, love Christ; but they who love him, keep his commandments, as Himself testifies; which, assuredly, with the divine help, they can do. For, although, during this mortal life, men, how holy and just soever, at times fall into at least light and daily sins, which are also called venial, not therefore do they cease to be just…

For God forsakes not those who have been once justified by His grace, unless he be first forsaken by them. Wherefore, no one ought to flatter himself up with faith alone, fancying that by faith alone he is made an heir, and will obtain the inheritance, even though he suffer not with Christ, that so he may be also glorified with him. For even Christ Himself, as the Apostle saith, Whereas he was the son of God, learned obedience by the things which he suffered, and being consummated, he became, to all who obey him, the cause of eternal salvation. For which cause the same Apostle admonishes the justified, saying; Know you not that they that run in the race, all run indeed, but one receiveth the prize? So run that you may obtain. I therefore so run, not as at an uncertainty: I so fight, not as one beating the air, but I chastise my body, and bring it into subjection; lest perhaps, when I have preached to others, I myself should become a cast-away. So also the prince of the apostles, Peter; Labour the more that by good works you may make sure your calling and election. For doing those things, you shall not sin at any time. From which it is plain, that those are opposed to the orthodox doctrine of religion, who assert that the just man sins, venially at least, in every good work; or, which is yet more insupportable, that he merits eternal punishments; as also those who state, that the just sin in all their works, if, in those works, they, together with this aim principally that God may be gloried, have in view also the eternal reward, in order to excite their sloth, and to encourage themselves to run in the course: whereas it is written, I have inclined my heart to do all thy justifications for the reward: and, concerning Moses, the Apostle saith, that he looked unto the reward.

You wrote: “God requires us to be perfect to get to heaven.”
A. What is necessary is to be in the state of sanctifying grace at death not perfection.

You wrote: “Then you’d have to do the same to Christ’s teachings when He uses hyperbole. I don’t think you want to go there.”
A. No, Jesus spoke in parables because some were unteachable, not exaggerated statements or claims.

You wrote: “But how can I know I’m not in a state of grace? I am capable of fooling myself and I don’t want to find out the hard way I was wrong.”
A. Council of Trent, Session VI, Chapter IX: “no one can know with the certainty of faith, which cannot be subject to error, that he has obtained the grace of God.”

You wrote: “A corporate relationship is all I got now, and every attempt I made to get closer to God has failed. God plays hard to get, and this is HIS choice, not mine.”
A. Prayer is relationship with God. If you have prayed sincerely, then you have not failed.

You wrote: “Nope. This is Church teaching. Re: The irony is that by exercising our will, we reduce free will.”
A. Ignorance through the intention not to know what is morally good, is directly uncharitable and is a grave sin in itself. The Catechism 1859 remarks that: “Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart 133 do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin”

You wrote: “Someone gets in the habit of committing sin, it becomes harder and harder to stop, and game over, free will = 0.”
A. If habit takes over and the person repents and confesses, but cannot break the habit then the sin is not voluntary and is not damning.

You wrote: “This is why we cannot do the Bart Simpson method (i.e. “do whatever you want all your life and then do a presto-change-o conversation on the deathbed”) - by that time, one’s heart is so hardened through sin they cannot convert.”
A. Not advisable at all, however it has happened.
 
You wrote: “I know God does not change, but the plan had multiple phases. Before the fall and after the fall.”
A. So Adam and Eve are exclusively in the Garden of Eden with God’s foreknowledge.
No. God foreknew what would happen and his plan took it into account. I know God is outside of time, and everything is a big “NOW” to him. So his plan could never change, but it did have several phases.
You wrote: “The number of imperfections IS relevant because God did not guarantee that we would have the strength to overcome our imperfections. God did not provide a cure for concupiscence until AFTER we are dead.”
A. There is the part that God contributes and the part that the person contributes. God give sufficient strength through grace for the one in the state of sanctifying grace to remain free from all mortal sin, contingent upon the free will choice of the person to abide in charity. The cure is grace, the test must remain to receive our crown of glory.
If the cure is grace, I’d be a saint by now. Unfortunately, that’s not the case. I’ve gotten up to a certain level of sanctification, and have stagnated for over a decade, unable to move forward. Not from a lack of trying. Clearly my cooperation is not enough, God needs to step in and help me.

[qutoe]
…no one ought to make use of that rash saying, one prohibited by the Fathers under an anathema, that the observance of the commandments of God is impossible for one that is justified.

Again, and again, you’re not listening to me on this point.

I never said it was IMPOSSIBLE. I said it was HORRIFICALLY DIFFICULT and NOT GUARANTEED.
For God commands not impossibilities
He does so for me. I’m still imperfect and he demands I be perfect.
For God forsakes not those who have been once justified by His grace,
Dark Night of the Soul.
Dark Night of the Senses.
God playing hard to get with me.

Those say otherwise. I can’t hear those words, God’s actions are screaming too loud.
You wrote: “God requires us to be perfect to get to heaven.”
A. What is necessary is to be in the state of sanctifying grace at death not perfection.
Heresy. You’re denying purgatory.

“Be ye perfect like your heavenly Father is perfect”
“Nothing unclean shall enter the Kingdom of God.”

Being in a state of grace alone, means one goes to purgatory, not heaven.
While in purgatory, one is perfected and then goes to heaven.
One has to be PERFECT to go to heaven.
A. No, Jesus spoke in parables because some were unteachable, not exaggerated statements or claims.
So per your doctrine, we are required to cut off our hands and pluck out our eyes (Matthew 5:29). That was not hyperbole, right?

In addition, your doctrine would condemn me to hell because I am a layman. I can’t become a monk and be celibate and be saved. (Rich young ruler)
You wrote: “But how can I know I’m not in a state of grace? I am capable of fooling myself and I don’t want to find out the hard way I was wrong.”
A. Council of Trent, Session VI, Chapter IX: “no one can know with the certainty of faith, which cannot be subject to error, that he has obtained the grace of God.”
Precisely, so I’m afraid I’ll be rejected at the time of my death, elevator down.
You wrote: “A corporate relationship is all I got now, and every attempt I made to get closer to God has failed. God plays hard to get, and this is HIS choice, not mine.”
A. Prayer is relationship with God. If you have prayed sincerely, then you have not failed.
Prayer is a monologue to me.
You wrote: “Nope. This is Church teaching. Re: The irony is that by exercising our will, we reduce free will.”
A. Ignorance through the intention not to know what is morally good, is directly uncharitable and is a grave sin in itself. The Catechism 1859 remarks that: “Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart 133 do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin”
If one fools themselves, then this is easy to do.
 
You wrote: "No … So his plan could never change, but it did have several phases. "
A. So Adam and Eve are exclusively in the Garden of Eden with God’s foreknowledge. There is no conflict so why the no?

You wrote: “If the cure is grace, I’d be a saint by now.”
A. That is illogical for actual grace requires our free will consent to receive it. Two dogmas on Actual Grace are (Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, Ludwig Ott):
  • There is a supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul, which precedes the free act of the will. (De fide.)
  • There is a supernatural influence of God in the faculties of the soul which coincides in time with man’s free act of will. (De fide.)
Re: …no one ought to make use of that rash saying, one prohibited by the Fathers under an anathema, that the observance of the commandments of God is impossible for one that is justified.

You wrote: “Again, and again, you’re not listening to me on this point. I never said it was IMPOSSIBLE. I said it was HORRIFICALLY DIFFICULT and NOT GUARANTEED.”
A. I have and am listening and responded to those ideas multiple times. Firstly, I acknowledged the difficulty, and secondly wrote that the guarantee requires our free will consent added to the grace.

You wrote: "He does so for me. I’m still imperfect and he demands I be perfect. "
A. So you oppose the Council of Trent statement then “For God commands not impossibilities”.

You wrote: “Heresy. You’re denying purgatory.”
A. Certainly not, I wrote “to get to heaven”. One admitted to purgatory will get to heaven, by the time of the general resurrection at the latest.

You wrote: “So per your doctrine, we are required to cut off our hands and pluck out our eyes (Matthew 5:29). That was not hyperbole, right?”
A. That looks like hyperbole to me, however it is true that it is better to be maimed than go to hell, such as a comparison to amputation rather than death. Haydock Commentary explains:
Ver. 29. Whatever is an immediate occasion of sin, however near or dear it may be, must be abandoned (Menochius), though it prove as dear to us, or as necessary as a hand, or an eye, and without delay or demur. (Haydock)

You wrote: “In addition, your doctrine would condemn me to hell because I am a layman. I can’t become a monk and be celibate and be saved. (Rich young ruler)”
A. No, and also not “my doctrine”. His answers were given to that particular person, for his particular moral situation.

You wrote: “Precisely, so I’m afraid I’ll be rejected at the time of my death, elevator down.”
A. St. Paul wrote in Philippians 2:12 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, (as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but much more now in my absence,) with fear and trembling work out your salvation. 13 For it is God who worketh in you, both to will and to accomplish, according to his good will.

Perfection can be applied at different levels. It is not necessary to eliminate all imperfection for salvation or heaven. See My Catholic Faith A Manual of Religion, By Most Reverend Louis L. R. Morrow, S.T.D., Bishop of Krishnagar, 1949, Chapter 23):
  1. If a person is in the state of grace, venial sins are forgiven in many ways without necessity of confession.
Provided one has sorrow and a sincere resolution not to commit the sins again, they are forgiven not only by Confession, but also by Holy Communion, by acts of contrition, prayer, good works, etc.
  1. A distinction exists between venial sins and imperfections. Imperfections are faults that arise from ignorance or weakness, not from a bad will.
For instance involuntary distractions in prayer, “white lies” told while telling a story or in exagerations or jokes, bad manners that hurt no one much, are imperfections. We should, however, try to avoid all imperfections, for they are not praiseworthy, are often a cause of irritation to others, and make us accustomed to doing what is not correct.

How does venial sin harm us? --Venial sin harms us by making us less fervent in the service of God, by weakening our power to resist mortal sin, and by making us deserving of God’s punishments in this life or in purgatory.

catholicbook.com/AgredaCD/MyCatholicFaith/mcfc023.htm
 
You wrote: "No … So his plan could never change, but it did have several phases. "
A. So Adam and Eve are exclusively in the Garden of Eden with God’s foreknowledge. There is no conflict so why the no?
They’re not exclusively in the Garden of Eden. They got rightfully kicked out. In that instance, they did the crime, they do the time. That was just.

However, we didn’t do the crime, yet we do the time in this jail cell.
You wrote: “If the cure is grace, I’d be a saint by now.”
A. That is illogical for actual grace requires our free will consent to receive it. Two dogmas on Actual Grace are (Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, Ludwig Ott):
  • There is a supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul, which precedes the free act of the will. (De fide.)
  • There is a supernatural influence of God in the faculties of the soul which coincides in time with man’s free act of will. (De fide.)
Re: …no one ought to make use of that rash saying, one prohibited by the Fathers under an anathema, that the observance of the commandments of God is impossible for one that is justified.
Which is more proof that I don’t have a free will due to the massive amount of imperfections. If I had received that saint-making grace, I would be a saint, now.
I clearly didn’t get it because I don’t have free will.

I don’t care about being “not guilty” of a sin, I’m not getting any grace if I have no free will.
wrote that the guarantee requires our free will consent added to the grace.
And if one doesn’t have free will due to massive imperfections, game over. No grace for them.
You wrote: "He does so for me. I’m still imperfect and he demands I be perfect. "
A. So you oppose the Council of Trent statement then “For God commands not impossibilities”.
Then how do I become perfect without having to go to purgatory? It is impossible.

How do I get perfect when I’m stuck at this particular level of development for ages? I’m frustrated with myself and my inability to become a saintlier person.
You wrote: “Heresy. You’re denying purgatory.”
A. Certainly not, I wrote “to get to heaven”. One admitted to purgatory will get to heaven, by the time of the general resurrection at the latest.
But not until one gets into purgatory first. Nobody goes directly to heaven by being in a state of grace ALONE.
You wrote: “So per your doctrine, we are required to cut off our hands and pluck out our eyes (Matthew 5:29). That was not hyperbole, right?”
A. That looks like hyperbole to me, however it is true that it is better to be maimed than go to hell, such as a comparison to amputation rather than death.
So you can’t reject the hyperbole simply because you don’t like it.

When I say “only Jesus gets to heaven” that’s hyperbole. If you understand that to mean we must imitate Christ an be just like him (instead of ourselves) then you understand what I mean.

When I say “the self is evil” - it is hyperbole as well. If you understand that to mean we must give up ourselves, we must decrease so he may increase.
You wrote: “In addition, your doctrine would condemn me to hell because I am a layman. I can’t become a monk and be celibate and be saved. (Rich young ruler)”
A. No, and also not “my doctrine”. His answers were given to that particular person, for his particular moral situation.
The Rich young ruler teaching was hyperbole as well. Christ does not demand everyone give up everything they own, give it to the poor and become monks or nuns. If he did (per your doctrine) then I’m doomed as a layman. I don’t think the Church teaches this, but I do struggle with my 2nd class status as a layman.
You wrote: “Precisely, so I’m afraid I’ll be rejected at the time of my death, elevator down.”
A. St. Paul wrote in Philippians 2:12 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, (as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but much more now in my absence,) with fear and trembling work out your salvation. 13 For it is God who worketh in you, both to will and to accomplish, according to his good will.
That’s the only way to work out our salvation, through fear and trembling. Not because it was a free gift from God. Not because God helps us in carrying our cross, or heelping us get our salvation through a guaranteed final perseverance.
Perfection can be applied at different levels. It is not necessary to eliminate all imperfection for salvation or heaven.
If one does not eliminate all imperfections prior to death, Purgatory is their lot. Yes, they go to heaven eventually but you can’t get into heaven directly with any sort of imperfection.
3. If a person is in the state of grace, venial sins are forgiven in many ways without necessity of confession.

Provided one has sorrow and a sincere resolution not to commit the sins again, they are forgiven not only by Confession, but also by Holy Communion, by acts of contrition, prayer, good works, etc.
I pray an Act of Contrition every day, do a spiritual communion every day, and also take communion at Mass (I hope I’m not fooling myself in that I’m actually in a state of grace, I’m doomed per 1 Cor 11 if I am).
  1. A distinction exists between venial sins and imperfections. Imperfections are faults that arise from ignorance or weakness, not from a bad will.
And one cannot go to heaven directly if in a state of grace and having one imperfection.​
 
You wrote: “They’re not exclusively in the Garden of Eden.”
A. Exclusively: to the exclusion of others; only; solely.

“However, we didn’t do the crime, yet we do the time in this jail cell.”
A. Caetchism 404 … Adam and Eve committed a personal sin, but this sin affected the human nature that they would then transmit in a fallen state.294 It is a sin which will be transmitted by propagation to all mankind, that is, by the transmission of a human nature deprived of original holiness and justice. And that is why original sin is called “sin” only in an analogical sense: it is a sin “contracted” and not “committed” - a state and not an act.

You wrote: “I don’t care about being “not guilty” of a sin, I’m not getting any grace if I have no free will.” … And if one doesn’t have free will due to massive imperfections, game over. No grace for them. "
A. Catechism 405: … Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ’s grace, erases original sin and turns a man back towards God, but the consequences for nature, weakened and inclined to evil, persist in man and summon him to spiritual battle.

You wrote: “Then how do I become perfect without having to go to purgatory? It is impossible.”
A. You personally, or a person? A person can do penance for their absolved sins, so that no temporal punishment remains. One form of penance is indulgences.

You wrote: “How do I get perfect when I’m stuck at this particular level of development for ages? I’m frustrated with myself and my inability to become a saintlier person.”
A. Avoid the occasions of sin. Prayer and fasting and charitable works or donations.

You wrote: “But not until one gets into purgatory first. Nobody goes directly to heaven by being in a state of grace ALONE.”
A. I did not say directly, however it is not necessary for all to experience purgatory.

You wrote: “If you understand that to mean we must imitate Christ an be just like him (instead of ourselves) then you understand what I mean.”
A. I hope we are saying the same thing. I find your thinking to be different than that of the Church in wording.

You wrote: “I don’t think the Church teaches this, but I do struggle with my 2nd class status as a layman.”
A. A layman is not second class per the Catholic Church teaching, if that is what you mean.

You wrote: “Not because it was a free gift from God. Not because God helps us in carrying our cross, or helping us get our salvation through a guaranteed final perseverance.”
A. Guaranteed final perseverance was never a teaching of the Church, but God does help us with grace and that is a spiritual help with our cross, and without grace there is no salvation.

You wrote: “If one does not eliminate all imperfections prior to death, Purgatory is their lot.”
A. That is not true according to the Catholic Church, Council of Florence. 693 De novissimis] * It has likewise defined, that, if those truly penitent have departed in the love of God, before they have made satisfaction by the worthy fruits of penance for sins of commission and omission, the souls of these are cleansed after death by purgatorial punishments; and so that they may be released from punishments of this kind, the suffrages of the living faithful are of advantage to them, namely, the sacrifices of Masses, prayers, and almsgiving, and other works of piety, which are customarily performed by the faithful for other faithful according to the institutions of the Church. And that the souls of those, who after the reception of baptism have incurred no stain of sin at all, and also those, who after the contraction of the stain of sin whether in their bodies, or when released from the same bodies, as we have said before, are purged, are immediately received into heaven, and see clearly the one and triune God Himself just as He is, yet according to the diversity of merits, one more perfectly than another. Moreover, the souls of those who depart in actual mortal sin or in original sin only, descend immediately into hell but to undergo punishments of different kinds [see n.464].
 
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