Is our free choice real

[Vico]

False. Those in purgatory are not saints YET. They’re on the way irrevocably.
You keep dodging my question, and never answer it.
What is the difference between the soul in heaven and the one in purgatory? The one in heaven has more grace, they differ in grace is what I say. You won’t answer that. You deny that.
And there’s no way to get temporal punishment forgiven. That’s why we are still here in this jail cell.
Read the lives of the saints. The endured HORRIFIC suffering. That is not a light burden.

It is light because it is not eternal and forgiveness of guilt is easy.

You wrote: “You keep dodging my question, and never answer it.”
This is not true since I answered is a few times in previous posts. Those in purgatory have temporal punishment remaining to remove attachments to creatures but also have the state of sanctifying grace. Those in heaven do not have any remaining temporal punishment, and also have the state of sanctifying grace.

Catholic Encyclopedia
The communion of saints is the spiritual solidarity which binds together the faithful on earth, the souls in purgatory, and the saints in heaven in the organic unity of the same mystical body under Christ its head, and in a constant interchange of supernatural offices. The participants in that solidarity are called saints by reason of their destination and of their partaking of the fruits of the Redemption (1 Corinthians 1:2 — Greek Text). Sollier, J. (1908). The Communion of Saints. In The Catholic Encyclopedia. New York: Robert Appleton Company. newadvent.org/cathen/04171a.htm

It is certain that those in purgatory are saints because they have salvation.

• Church Militant (sense one: saints here have the state of sanctifying grace)
• Church Penitent (sense two: saints here are saved)
• Church Triumphant (sense three: saints here have the Beatific Vision and are saved)

 

[BobCatholic]

It is light because it is not eternal and forgiveness of guilt is easy.

It is not light if one can’t handle the suffering!

It is not easy because the suffering is horrific.

Here in this jail cell, only suffering is guaranteed. There is no hope until death.

You wrote: “You keep dodging my question, and never answer it.”
This is not true since I answered is a few times in previous posts. Those in purgatory have temporal punishment remaining to remove attachments to creatures but also have the state of sanctifying grace. Those in heaven do not have any remaining temporal punishment, and also have the state of sanctifying grace.

My question still wasn’t answered.

What is the difference between someone’s level of grace in purgatory and the level of grace in heaven? The heaven’s resident has a higher level of grace.

If the level of grace were equal in both - Purgatory would not exist!

What’s the difference? Lower state of grace due to imperfections. There is no choice there.

In addition, there are multiple levels of heaven (like the Third heaven mentioned in 2 Corinthians 12:1-4…

There are 9 choirs of angels. Each level is higher than the other. They have more and more and more grace as one goes up the levels.

 

[Vico]

It is not light if one can’t handle the suffering!

It is not easy because the suffering is horrific.

Here in this jail cell, only suffering is guaranteed. There is no hope until death.

My question still wasn’t answered.

What is the difference between someone’s level of grace in purgatory and the level of grace in heaven? The heaven’s resident has a higher level of grace.

If the level of grace were equal in both - Purgatory would not exist!

What’s the difference? Lower state of grace due to imperfections. There is no choice there.

In addition, there are multiple levels of heaven (like the Third heaven mentioned in 2 Corinthians 12:1-4…

There are 9 choirs of angels. Each level is higher than the other. They have more and more and more grace as one goes up the levels.

Jesus Christ said the burden was light. Matthew 11:28-30

28 Come to me, all you that labour, and are burdened, and I will refresh you.
29 Take up my yoke upon you, and learn of me, because I am meek, and humble of heart: and you shall find rest to your souls.
30 For my yoke is sweet and my burden light.

Grace is not the difference between purgatory and heaven, it is the presence of temporal punishment. I did answer the question. Merit determines the glory and greatness of the Beatific Vision.

• With death the possibility of merit or demerit or conversion ceases. (Sent. certa.)* The souls of the just which, in the moment of death, are burdened with venial sins or temporal punishment due to sins, enter Purgatory. (De fide.)
• The souls of the just which in the moment of death are free from all guilt of sin and punishment for sin, enter into Heaven. (De fide.)
• The degree of perfection of the beatific vision granted to the just is proportioned to each one’s merits. (De fide.)

– Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma - Ludwig Ott

 

[fbl9]

In purgatory nothing is added only things are removed so thus there is sufficient Grace to enter Heaven.

 

[IWantGod]

In purgatory nothing is added only things are removed so thus there is sufficient Grace to enter Heaven.

What is removed?

 

[fbl9]

What is removed?

Attachment to sin.

 

[mkoopman]

In purgatory nothing is added only things are removed so thus there is sufficient Grace to enter Heaven.

Sufficient grace after personal judgement is not meaningful. It seems you are buying in on the bad automata design by God. Grace is the effect of God’s mercy on our soul as we struggle within the church militant, and also for those without baptism. God did not make automata with bad programming, unless you are in the dot religion perhaps.

Bob has a child who is a burden and Bob has to pay for his own sterilization because the corporate church relationship he has argues against Obamacare, apparently. Original sin is not from a leaky boatful of grace eventually swamping. Free will is accepting a relationship with God, and we know that Jesus is God, the second person of the one true God. Rejecting God is sin and there are many paths to committing sinful acts. Grace is how we avoid sin as our carnal makeup is like an automata, like an animal. Virtue and vice are real in the creation God formed and sin corrupted. There would be no need of grace if there were no free will, as there could be no vice. There would also be no true love, that is the self sacrificing love that Jesus showed and that redeems us from corruption.

Corruption in matters of state is far different from corrupt state machines.

 

[IWantGod]

Attachment to sin.

Sin is a privation of being not an actual being on to itself.

 

[BobCatholic]

Jesus Christ said the burden was light. Matthew 11:28-30

28 Come to me, all you that labour, and are burdened, and I will refresh you.
29 Take up my yoke upon you, and learn of me, because I am meek, and humble of heart: and you shall find rest to your souls.
30 For my yoke is sweet and my burden light.

That’s because he’s the LORD and everything is easy for him. He can do anything!

I’m a prisoner stuck in a jail cell.

Grace is not the difference between purgatory and heaven, it is the presence of temporal punishment. I did answer the question.

Temporal punishment is not a grace.

God’s mercy is grace. It is a relief of punishment. It is avoidance of grace. It is the release from prison.

Temporal punishment is proof of a lack of grace. I did something wrong and am getting spanked temporally. I wasn’t forgiven temporally. Forgiveness comes from grace and that’s a proof that I didn’t get grace in a temporal way.

God withheld his temporal forgiveness. That is grace withheld.

This is why we are held temporally responsible for the sins of our ancestors. We have a lack of grace.

 

[Vico]

That’s because he’s the LORD and everything is easy for him. He can do anything!
I’m a prisoner stuck in a jail cell.
Temporal punishment is not a grace.
God’s mercy is grace. It is a relief of punishment. It is avoidance of grace. It is the release from prison.
Temporal punishment is proof of a lack of grace. I did something wrong and am getting spanked temporally. I wasn’t forgiven temporally. Forgiveness comes from grace and that’s a proof that I didn’t get grace in a temporal way.
God withheld his temporal forgiveness. That is grace withheld.
This is why we are held temporally responsible for the sins of our ancestors. We have a lack of grace.

God forgives sins when there is repentance. Temporal punishments are forgiven when the sinner has the proper disposition for it. So there are two times this may occur: before death and after death.

Catechism of the Catholic Church teaching about before death forgiveness of temporal punishment is below:

1472 To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the “eternal punishment” of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the “temporal punishment” of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.84

1473 The forgiveness of sin and restoration of communion with God entail the remission of the eternal punishment of sin, but temporal punishment of sin remains. While patiently bearing sufferings and trials of all kinds and, when the day comes, serenely facing death, the Christian must strive to accept this temporal punishment of sin as a grace. He should strive by works of mercy and charity, as well as by prayer and the various practices of penance, to put off completely the “old man” and to put on the "new man."85

 

[BobCatholic]

God forgives sins when there is repentance. Temporal punishments are forgiven when the sinner has the proper disposition for it.

And how is one properly disposed? Step by step instructions please. The catechism citation is very vague.

So there are two times this may occur: before death and after death.

And this requires God’s grace to happen. If God withholds the grace, temporal punishment results. There is no choice on our part. It is all dependent on God.

The only difference between those in purgatory and heaven is the level of grace.

Then there’s the issue that if one is created imperfect, that imperfection prevents them from being properly disposed. As a result, free will = 0 for this issue.

 

[BobCatholic]

Attachment to sin.

This is an imperfection, which causes grace to be reduced. This is why people are in purgatory, they have grace missing, lacking to get into heaven directly.

Sin is a privation of being not an actual being on to itself.

Attachment to sin is not the same thing as sin.

 

[IWantGod]

This is an imperfection, which causes grace to be reduced. This is why people are in purgatory, they have grace missing, lacking to get into heaven directly.

Attachment to sin is not the same thing as sin.

We have an attachment to our privations, so surely God must add something as apposed to removing something.?

 

[Vico]

And how is one properly disposed? Step by step instructions please. The catechism citation is very vague.

And this requires God’s grace to happen. If God withholds the grace, temporal punishment results. There is no choice on our part. It is all dependent on God.

The only difference between those in purgatory and heaven is the level of grace.

Then there’s the issue that if one is created imperfect, that imperfection prevents them from being properly disposed. As a result, free will = 0 for this issue.

No, the reason for the difference is the temporal punishment. Those in purgatory and heaven all have the state of sanctifying grace. The amount of merit does not differentiate those in purgatory and heaven either.

To remove the temporal punishment requires penance which we do through our actions such as we see enumerated in the general norms of indulgences below. Those living in the state of sanctifying grace do certainly receive God’s help with eliminating temporal punishment.

1.Raising the mind to God with humble trust while performing one’s duties and bearing life’s difficulties, and adding, at least mentally, some pious invocation.
2.Devoting oneself or one’s goods compassionately in a spirit of faith to the service of one’s brothers and sisters in need.
3.Freely abstaining in a spirit of penance from something licit and pleasant.
4.Freely giving open witness to one’s faith before others in particular circumstances of everyday life.

Catechism 1472 … A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.

Catechism 1473 The forgiveness of sin and restoration of communion with God entail the remission of the eternal punishment of sin, but temporal punishment of sin remains. While patiently bearing sufferings and trials of all kinds and, when the day comes, serenely facing death, the Christian must strive to accept this temporal punishment of sin as a grace. He should strive by works of mercy and charity, as well as by prayer and the various practices of penance, to put off completely the “old man” and to put on the "new man."85

 

[BobCatholic]

We have an attachment to our privations, so surely God must add something as apposed to removing something.?

Yes, God must add grace to the soul.

After all, imperfections are a privation of perfection. So the grace God adds is perfection.

 

[BobCatholic]

No, the reason for the difference is the temporal punishment.

But why the temporal punishment? Read below.

Those in purgatory and heaven all have the state of sanctifying grace. The amount of merit does not differentiate those in purgatory and heaven either.

If what you say is true, that those in purgatory and heaven have the same level of grace and merit, they are being treated FAR differently - this is unjust. You’re accusing God of being unjust.

This can’t be the case, so therefore the difference between those in purgatory and heaven is that they have different levels of grace. The difference being that those in purgatory are imperfect - which they have no choice of having.

To remove the temporal punishment requires penance which we do through our actions such as we see enumerated in the general norms of indulgences below.

Yes, but there’s a problem.

One has to get a plenary indulgence. To get one, one must not be imperfect (i.e. have no attachment to sin which is an imperfection), which is impossible for ordinary people to do.

Even if someone DOES get a plenary indulgence, the next venial sin means game over to the state of “go directly to heaven” if they died.

Those living in the state of sanctifying grace do certainly receive God’s help with eliminating temporal punishment.

But not all of it.

Even WITH a plenary indulgence, one is still held temporally responsible for the sins of their ancestors.

So, there is no choice if someone can get out of having to go to purgatory if they’re in a state of grace. Can’t keep the “go directly to heaven” state because one is imperfect.

Free will = 0 in this case.

 

[Vico]

But why the temporal punishment? Read below.

“Those in purgatory and heaven all have the state of sanctifying grace. The amount of merit does not differentiate those in purgatory and heaven either.”

If what you say is true, that those in purgatory and heaven have the same level of grace and merit, they are being treated FAR differently - this is unjust. You’re accusing God of being unjust.

This can’t be the case, so therefore the difference between those in purgatory and heaven is that they have different levels of grace. The difference being that those in purgatory are imperfect - which they have no choice of having.

Yes, but there’s a problem.

One has to get a plenary indulgence. To get one, one must not be imperfect (i.e. have no attachment to sin which is an imperfection), which is impossible for ordinary people to do.

Even if someone DOES get a plenary indulgence, the next venial sin means game over to the state of “go directly to heaven” if they died.

But not all of it.

Even WITH a plenary indulgence, one is still held temporally responsible for the sins of their ancestors.

So, there is no choice if someone can get out of having to go to purgatory if they’re in a state of grace. Can’t keep the “go directly to heaven” state because one is imperfect.

Free will = 0 in this case.

You wrote: “If what you say is true, that those in purgatory and heaven have the same level of grace and merit.”

I pointed out before that level is irrelevant, it is the state of sanctifying grace and temporal punishment which the Church teaches are the determining factors. There are different amounts of merit that each person has and the merit is not what determines if one experiences purgatory. It is a dogma that those in purgatory or heaven have the state of sanctifying grace.

No, one does not need to get a plenary indulgence avoid purgatory. Many partial indulgences or even simple penance without any indulgences can eliminate all temporal punishment due to sin. There is no temporal punishment due sin without sin, mortal or venial, and not all imperfections constitute sin. Actual sin only occurs through free will choice, and only actual sin results in temporal punishment due sin.

Suffering due to concupiscence is natural and is countered by the grace of God. When baptized we have no temporal punishment due to sin.

 

[BobCatholic]

You wrote: “If what you say is true, that those in purgatory and heaven have the same level of grace and merit.”

I pointed out before that level is irrelevant, it is the state of sanctifying grace and temporal punishment which the Church teaches are the determining factors.

Level is relevant.

What’s the difference between the state of grace that one in purgatory has and the one in heaven has?

If both have the SAME AMOUNT OF GRACE, as you are claiming, then we have God treating people different for having the same state of grace.

Two people do the same thing, one gets punished with purgatory, one gets rewarded with heaven. How is that just?

Level is most definitely relevant. If it is irrelevant as you claim, purgatory should not exist.

The only difference between the ones in heaven and the ones in purgatory is level or amount of grace that they have. Or did you forget the parable of the 3 servants?
They all had different levels of grace as well.

It is obvious those in purgatory have a lower level or amount of grace than those in heaven, otherwise God is punishing people for an unjust reason.

There are different amounts of merit that each person has and the merit is not what determines if one experiences purgatory. It is a dogma that those in purgatory or heaven have the state of sanctifying grace.

I’m not questioning whether both have the state of grace, what I’m questioning is if they have the SAME LEVEL or AMOUNT of grace. If they have the same amount or level of grace and they get two different outcomes, they are treated unjustly.

No, one does not need to get a plenary indulgence avoid purgatory. Many partial indulgences or even simple penance without any indulgences can eliminate all temporal punishment due to sin.

It is impossible to get rid of all temporal punishment while in this jail cell.

There is no temporal punishment due sin without sin, mortal or venial, and not all imperfections constitute sin. Actual sin only occurs through free will choice, and only actual sin results in temporal punishment due sin.

Actually all imperfections cause people to sin, and that is known as “attachment to sin” in your definition, and those warrant temporal punishments per your statements. As a result, imperfections ARE sins.

God creates people imperfect and thus people don’t have a choice but to suffer punishment.

When baptized we have no temporal punishment due to sin.

A freshly baptized person still has concupiscence and is held temporally responsible for the sins of their ancestors. So it does not get rid of ALL temporal punishments.

 

[Vico]

Level is relevant.

What’s the difference between the state of grace that one in purgatory has and the one in heaven has?

If both have the SAME AMOUNT OF GRACE, as you are claiming, then we have God treating people different for having the same state of grace.

Two people do the same thing, one gets punished with purgatory, one gets rewarded with heaven. How is that just?

Level is most definitely relevant. If it is irrelevant as you claim, purgatory should not exist.

The only difference between the ones in heaven and the ones in purgatory is level or amount of grace that they have. Or did you forget the parable of the 3 servants?
They all had different levels of grace as well.

It is obvious those in purgatory have a lower level or amount of grace than those in heaven, otherwise God is punishing people for an unjust reason.

I’m not questioning whether both have the state of grace, what I’m questioning is if they have the SAME LEVEL or AMOUNT of grace. If they have the same amount or level of grace and they get two different outcomes, they are treated unjustly.

It is impossible to get rid of all temporal punishment while in this jail cell.

Actually all imperfections cause people to sin, and that is known as “attachment to sin” in your definition, and those warrant temporal punishments per your statements. As a result, imperfections ARE sins.

God creates people imperfect and thus people don’t have a choice but to suffer punishment.

A freshly baptized person still has concupiscence and is held temporally responsible for the sins of their ancestors. So it does not get rid of ALL temporal punishments.

The Church does not call the consequences of original sin temporal punishments due sin, rather that term is used for actual sins.

Sin is certainly imperfect behavior, however all imperfections are not sinful. Actual sin requires an act of will.

I do not post about amount of grace, except that it is irrelevant, since the Catholic Church teaches that the presence of temporal punishment is what determines if the just (those departed with the state of sanctifying grace) need purgatory or not.

Q. You ask “Two people do the same thing, one gets punished with purgatory, one gets rewarded with heaven. How is that just?”
A. If the two are both repent and are forgiven the guilt, there still may remain temporal punishment. The acts of penance for sin eliminate the temporal punishment. So the difference between two in this example, is that one did incomplete penance and the other did complete penance.

See the Catholic Encyclopedia:

Temporal punishment

That temporal punishment is due to sin, even after the sin itself has been pardoned by God, is clearly the teaching of Scripture. God indeed brought man out of his first disobedience and gave him power to govern all things (Wisdom 10:2), but still condemned him “to eat his bread in the sweat of his brow” until he returned unto dust. God forgave the incredulity of Moses and Aaron, but in punishment kept them from the “land of promise” (Numbers 20:12). The Lord took away the sin of David, but the life of the child was forfeited because David had made God’s enemies blaspheme His Holy Name (2 Samuel 12:13-14). In the New Testament as well as in the Old, almsgiving and fasting, and in general penitential acts are the real fruits of repentance (Matthew 3:8; Luke 17:3; 3:3). The whole penitential system of the Church testifies that the voluntary assumption of penitential works has always been part of true repentance and the Council of Trent (Sess. XIV, can. xi) reminds the faithful that God does not always remit the whole punishment due to sin together with the guilt. God requires satisfaction, and will punish sin, and this doctrine involves as its necessary consequence a belief that the sinner failing to do penance in this life may be punished in another world, and so not be cast off eternally from God.

Hanna, E. (1911). Purgatory. In The Catholic Encyclopedia. New York: Robert Appleton Company. newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm

Attachments

We are obliged for absolution of mortal sin to avoid the near occasions of sin. We may be attracted to those occasions due to our attachment to the pleasure of our sins, even though we are sorry for them and intend not to repeat them. We are not under the same obligation for venial sins as we are for mortal sins.

Baltimore Catechism
Q. 782. What should one do who has only venial sins to confess?

A. One who has only venial sins to confess should tell also some sin already confessed in his past life for which he knows he is truly sorry; because it is not easy to be truly sorry for slight sins and imperfections, and yet we must be sorry for the sins confessed that our confession may be valid – hence we add some past sin for which we are truly sorry to those for which we may not be sufficiently sorry.

 

[rinnie]

That’s because he’s the LORD and everything is easy for him. He can do anything!

I’m a prisoner stuck in a jail cell.

Temporal punishment is not a grace.

God’s mercy is grace. It is a relief of punishment. It is avoidance of grace. It is the release from prison.

Temporal punishment is proof of a lack of grace. I did something wrong and am getting spanked temporally. I wasn’t forgiven temporally. Forgiveness comes from grace and that’s a proof that I didn’t get grace in a temporal way.

God withheld his temporal forgiveness. That is grace withheld.

This is why we are held temporally responsible for the sins of our ancestors. We have a lack of grace.

So what you are saying in the nutshell is this. And you have been saying for months now, that because of the sin of Adam and Eve we are doomed and the Grace given to us by God is not enough.

You say temporal punishment is not a grace. Where do you feel you have the ability to say this? Lets say that every single bad thing in your life came from God and he chooses to punish you and not me. Okay lets say this. Lets say everyone on here agrees with you. I get the good you the bad.

Even if this were the honest to God gospel truth, I get the good you the bad, how can you prove that the good is not a grace and gift to me from God, and the bad is not a good and grace from God for you?

Or say we all have the bad every single one of us in this world, prove to me suffering is not a grace from God. Thats all I want you to do.